Building Trust and Stewardship: A Conversation with Lisa Francisco
In this episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with Lisa Francisco, former Executive Director of Central Operations at Brentwood Baptist Church. Lisa shares her journey from a corporate career at HCA to overseeing finances and operations for one of Nashville's largest churches.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I am the president of the Engage Church Network, and we are glad that you have joined us today for this podcast. I am particularly pleased to, uh, uh, to introduce you to today's guest. Uh, Lisa Francisco was the, uh, minister of finances at... What was your official title? Executive- Which
Lisa Francisco: year?
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah, which year.
Lisa Francisco: My last title was executive director of central support, which basically meant everything non-ministry
Mike Glenn: related. Ev- everything non-ministry. Yeah. But I knew her as, uh, Minister of No.
Lisa Francisco: That's
Mike Glenn: true. Uh, she took care of, uh, of all of the budget, financial needs, all of that, uh, for Brentwood Baptist Church, and she and I worked together for over 20 years.
Uh, Lisa began her career in the corporate world in, um, uh, in the Nashville area working for, uh, HCA- Mm-hmm ... in audit and that kind of [00:01:00] stuff. And then when Brentwood Baptist Church started getting a certain size, where we needed, uh, professional, uh, attention to our finances, Lisa was brought in and did a brilliant job with us.
So w- we're glad to talk to you today about some of the basics of stewardship, uh, and how we, uh, manage and take care of, of the Lord's money. Now, uh, Lisa, thanks for being here. I'm glad- Thank you for having me ... glad to see you. We've already exchanged pictures of the grandchildren- Yes ... and, and all of that, so we can get, uh, uh, we can get right to it.
Uh, w- let's, let's go back to, um, a long time ago when you came into, uh, Brentwood Baptist Church. Uh, you and I have laughed, uh, a couple of times because you thought it was gonna be slower, easier-
Lisa Francisco: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: than your corporate world.
Lisa Francisco: Yes. And first, I wanna clarify, Minister of No, I spelled it K-N-O-W. He [00:02:00] spelled it N-O.
N-O. So, but-
Mike Glenn: You can't do it. Lisa won't let you do this.
Lisa Francisco: You know, when I came into the church, I can remember many months before I even interviewed for this job thinking one day, "What's it like to work at a church?" And then I'm like, "Why on earth did I think of that?" But people think that in a church we sit around praying and reading our Bible, and it is a business, and especially toward the end of my career at Brentwood Baptist Church.
You know, in the early days, I would, we'd get month-end close, and I'd actually have a chance to say, "What is on my list that I still need to work on?" Um, but it is very bisny- busy. When people give their money, they are giving out of their gratitude to the Lord. They're not buying a service, that you can't sell Jesus, He's free.
And so when they give their money, they're giving it because their heart has said, "I love my Jesus, and I wanna help. I want to be a part of His ministries." And so they give that, and so it's a huge [00:03:00] responsibility to make sure you're taking care of the money that's coming in. As many ... I've mentioned before, you've said many times, you, if you take care of the golden goose, she'll continue to lay the golden eggs.
But one thing I love so much about working under you is that you supported the fact that we needed to have controls in place. We need to be transparent with our congregations. We needed to have accountability. I mean, he would always get up in front of the congregation and say, "Lisa won't even let me buy Oreos."
And he said, "You can feel 'em just take a sigh of relief." Y-
Mike Glenn: you could ... Really, when we talked about the finance, when I, well, when I would take the time to remind them, let's talk about our system and how- Mm ... I, I don't have access to the checking account. I don't go to the finance meetings unless they call me for input on something.
Lisa Francisco: And in the 21 years I was there-
Mike Glenn: Uh-huh ...
Lisa Francisco: you never got called in.
Mike Glenn: I never got called in. Uh, I would usually meet with them going, "Hey, here's what I see coming in the, uh, in the year ahead." Yeah. And, and that would be my total input. [00:04:00] But under your leadership, we had But we had financial professionals who were managing our money on that team, so- Yeah
they didn't, they didn't need a Baptist preacher, uh, uh, messing with the money. So when, when you come into a situation like this, and now you are kind of consulting with new churches- I am ... and that kind of thing, uh, what are, what are the f- first kind of questions that you ask them?
Lisa Francisco: Um, I would first want to know a little bit about do they, first of all, who's doing their bookkeeping or accounting for them?
Do they have any processes in place? And find out where they are in the process, because even a, an early church plant, I mean, you still can do things. You don't have enough staff to have everything separated out and a l- lot of super controls, but you can still have controls over the integrity of the finances.
So I would wanna know, okay, do you, is it done in-house, or are you outsourcing it? Who's handling the offering when it comes in? Are you taking a, you know, are you sitting [00:05:00] in the offering plate? Are you doing online giving? Are you using... A lot of churches have moved to where they just have a, a locked container at the back- Right
to put their offering in. So how are you collecting that? And are there two people with that money all the time to make sure that nobody could ever accuse the person taking care of the offering that they've stolen any of it?
Mike Glenn: Right, or lost it or-
Lisa Francisco: Or lost it ... anything, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and one of the churches I was working with recently, and I was reviewing their processes, and I asked about that, and then, um, he came back and said, "You know, we, uh, we're not actually counting the cash before we put it in the locked bag.
We've got the checks." No, they were counting the cash. They were not adding up the checks. And I'm like, "You gotta do that, too, because you have to have that control. You also have to have that number to balance to when that gets entered on the back end." Right. So that's probably where I'd ask first is what processes do you have currently in place?
Do you have a finance team? Because a finance team can help review the books and get, help give assurance [00:06:00] to your congregation that things are above board. Mm-hmm. Those are the ty- types of things I'd start with, and, like, paying the bills. You know, who signs off on the bills? You don't want the pastor to be signing off the bills.
You wanna try to remove him from that process so people can't say that he is monkeying with books- Right ... spending money on things he doesn't need to spend on, various things like that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Most pastors, especially when they're getting started, think that they have to be in control of everything. And, and I didn't believe that.
Mm-hmm. And I don't believe that because it causes, uh, frustration in the, in the congregation. Mm-hmm. There's no check and balances. Correct. There's no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I wanna be sure. And we were always insistent. Uh, you put the system together. I was always insistent, insistent that the system be there so that if any church member ask us any time- About how the money was handled, where [00:07:00] the funds were for this project or this ministry or this mission, we could show them with documentation.
Lisa Francisco: Yes.
Mike Glenn: So, uh, talk to me about how important it is to have that, uh, uh, transparent of a system so that your members feel good about giving.
Lisa Francisco: Yeah. And first of all, I would say to that pastor who thinks they have to be in control of everything is, God has wired us all differently.
Mike Glenn: Yes.
Lisa Francisco: I, uh, you know, I'm not a pastor.
I don't get up there and preach, but my team was allowed ministry to happen because we took care of the backend stuff. Mm-hmm. So find somebody in your congregation that is good at that, and have them walk alongside you as you find what do you need to do with your finances. Maybe that would be your first chair of your finance team.
Mm-hmm. To make sure that you have somebody there that can walk alongside you. But, um- And go back to your question again. I lost the question.
Mike Glenn: No, just tell, just tell me [00:08:00] how important, how important it is to have that kind of system.
Lisa Francisco: It is. And also, you, it's very important that that pastor point out to their other ministers the importance of following the systems.
One of the best gifts that you gave me is when you would stand up in front of our team and tell 'em, "You need to do what Lisa says because she's keeping us off the front page of the newspaper." Everybody wants to... A- and, you know, you've seen these churches- Oh, yeah ... that have got in trouble, and they, you know, they blow up all over the front page of the newspaper, and because they're always looking to take a church down.
Mm-hmm. That's Satan at work there. But, um, you, that was a gift because if people understand that all, everybody on your staff knows that if there's something that's outside of what we have approved for budget, you need to go talk to, first of all, your supervisor, and, but work with the person that's in charge of the finances to see is there funding for that.
Mm-hmm. We [00:09:00] didn't use purchase orders at Brentwood Baptist Church except for with one minister who spent 90% of his budget by July, and, uh, he didn't stay around a lot longer after that. But, um, but, you know, your ministers are grownups. They should be able to follow the rules, the requirements.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lisa Francisco: But on my side, you also have to...
My ministry was a ministry of grace with them when they did need something- Yeah ... that they hadn't planned for. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I, I wanna stop and, and talk to the pastors just a second and, and remind you that, as Lisa said, we have people in our congregations who are gifted differently than you are, and while you may have the vision, while you may have, uh, the burden and understand where the church needs to go, you do not have all the gifts required to make that vision happen.
And if you are wise and smart, you're gonna find somebody, like Lisa, [00:10:00] who has the gift of, of organization, who has the gift of administration, and who is, who sees herself serving God's greater kingdom work and is blessed When the, when, uh, the, the, the, the numbers are balanced and all of that. She gets the same kind of blessing out of that that you do in preaching a good sermon.
So you need to open up these avenues of ministry so that people can do what God has called them to do, and they can serve the church well. Uh, and, you know, you and I have had this conversation about how excited you were to be able to use your gifts-
Lisa Francisco: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: to support all that, that Brentwood Baptist Church was doing.
Lisa Francisco: I never dreamed God could use a CPA to serve in His kingdom like that. And it was. It, and it, it meant the needs of my family, [00:11:00] uh, because I could take off when I need to be with the girls. But man, it, it turned from a blessing in my life to a passion all my life.
Mike Glenn: Right. Right. So when, um, what are the kind of things that tho- those top of your mind kind of things that, that most pastors Would want to do if they just knew to do
Lisa Francisco: Yeah.
Well, and, and we start off with the finance team, but there again, getting somebody that is gifted in understanding the financial situation that can walk alongside of you and can tell you, you can interpret. You don't, you're not expected to be an expert in that, but you do need to understand that, you know, you gotta have less going out than you got coming in.
Mike Glenn: Right
Lisa Francisco: Um, to manage the cash flows, especially in a young church, you know, you've gotta manage the cash flows. Um, to walk alongside you and talk about, okay, you, you need to talk about the offering a little bit more- Right ... in the service because they need to [00:12:00] know that we need to give and support the ministries.
Um, we talked about the cash. Make sure there's always two people handling the cash, you know? And whoever handles the cash, gets somebody else to open the bank statement and look at it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah, because y- you know, we say that. Yeah. But there have been peoples whose lives have been-
Lisa Francisco: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: ruined-
Lisa Francisco: Uh-huh
Mike Glenn: because something happened out of their control.
Lisa Francisco: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: But because nobody was there to back them up.
Lisa Francisco: Right.
Mike Glenn: The church became suspicious of them, and friendships were lost.
Lisa Francisco: Right.
Mike Glenn: Churches messed up because two people didn't take the money to the bank.
Lisa Francisco: Yeah. Yeah. Or somebody, uh, didn't sign off on a large expenditure of something that really shouldn't have been purchased.
Right. You know? Um, there are times and places when an expenditure that might look unusual is actually a reasonable expense, especially when you get into the children's ministry- Right ... and some of the creative things. And I can remember with Jay Strother one time, he'd brought back [00:13:00] a rocket or something, and he says I called him on it.
I didn't. I was just giving him a little, a little bit of dig, you know, because we had a good relationship. But, um, but ask, ask questions. Whoever's on your finance team needs to ask questions if they don't think something looks right. Right Just because it doesn't look like a normal purchase doesn't mean it wouldn't be appropriate.
For example, maybe there was a family in need and one of the ministers went out and, and bought an outfit for them to wear to a funeral- Right ... of their loved one.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Francisco: That would look like, why are you buying clothes for... A funeral's clothes. Well, may not necessarily be something that is inappropriate.
Mm-hmm. You just have to ask the question.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, and have the documentation.
Lisa Francisco: And have the documentation and who approved it. Mm-hmm. You know, make sure that somebody else knew that this was gonna happen. Yeah. Approved it. Maybe that one on a young church might be one that you'd wanna go to your finance team and they approved that you could go out and do that.
Yeah. It's all about protecting the integrity of the church [00:14:00] finances so that the church can flourish.
Mike Glenn: Mm. Right. And so that people feel... See, you, you tell the story about helping out the, the, you know, buying some clothes and that kind of stuff. We see, we see the expenditure, it's unusual. Mm-hmm. We question it.
We hear the story of how the church ministered to a family- Mm-hmm ... at a particular point of need. Everybody feels better about that, and then they're more excited about their giving-
Lisa Francisco: Yes, they are ...
Mike Glenn: uh, with that. Uh, I tell people often about, um, uh, Bill Kinney, who was chair of our finance committee a bunch of years ago.
Lisa Francisco: I know his name. I didn't know him.
Mike Glenn: While we, while we were still on, uh, Franklin Road.
Lisa Francisco: Uh-huh.
Mike Glenn: And Bill Kinney put in the debt wedge. Ah. The 2% debt wedge. Yeah. He said, "We don't know where we're gonna build, how we're gonna build, when we're gonna build, but we know we're gonna build, so we're gonna start paying for it"- Mm-hmm
while we were anticipating it. Well, it, because it was such a small thing, and he did it over so long, you know, 10 [00:15:00] years of moving.
Lisa Francisco: Yeah, I think when I got there it was maybe 10%, and it
Mike Glenn: moved up to 20%. It, it moved up just a little bit- Uh-huh ... every year, but nobody knew, no- It didn't hurt anybody.
Lisa Francisco: Uh-huh.
Mike Glenn: But when we paid the facility off, we had a two and a half million dollar windfall.
Because of- Mm-hmm ... his leadership. And everybody comes to me and goes, "Man, you are brilliant." I had nothing to do with that. Nor would I have thought of that.
Lisa Francisco: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But he did. And other people of our, uh, finance team have said, "If you do this, if you handle the money this way- Mm-hmm ... we invest it here while we're waiting."
Mm-hmm. It was, um-
Lisa Francisco: Well, and just like our maintenance reserve that we- Right ... put in pla- put in place. You know, you get a new building and everybody thinks, "Oh, we got a brand new building." Mm-hmm. But one day that building's not gonna be new anymore. Right. And so you have to start preparing, what are you gonna do?
Nobody wants to take up a love offering to do a parking lot- For the air conditioner ... or an air conditioner. Oh, yeah, yeah. They want that air conditioner fixed. But I remember [00:16:00] the first year we put money toward that, we put $25,000 away. Um, and that was under Jim Baker.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Francisco: And we did that, and then we continued to grow it.
Well, by the time I left, we were putting 5% of our budget toward maintenance reserve- Right ... so that, with, especially with nine campuses, that we could accommodate the needs. And so that's one of the other things I always tell churches I'm working with, you know, "Do you have any kind of a, of a reserve for when you have that air conditioner go out, or you have a boiler issue or something like that, that you don't have to go- And, and it's going
Mike Glenn: to happen.
Lisa Francisco: Yes, it will happen.
Mike Glenn: It is going to happen.
Lisa Francisco: It will happen. And then if you don't have to spend it because, you know, you estimated that that piece of equipment was gonna last 10 years and it lasts 15, well, that's great- Right ... 'cause you just-
Mike Glenn: You still keep reserving
Lisa Francisco: it up ... you can use it for something else, 'cause something will happen.
Mike Glenn: So what happens when, when good policy isn't followed?
Lisa Francisco: Well,
Mike Glenn: Well, in, in, in our case- Yeah ... you would lose your job.
Lisa Francisco: [00:17:00] Well-
Mike Glenn: Uh.
Lisa Francisco: Maybe, maybe not. You
Mike Glenn: got- So ...
Lisa Francisco: I ministered with grace, and so, you know, I would talk to somebody. But I can remember one time, a person with a credit card, they kept getting it confused with their personal one.
And I'm like, "I'm willing to put a little sticker on your church one so that you can know which one's your church one and which one's your personal one." And they never made that mistake again. You know? So, I mean, I want to always honor people as an adult, that they are going to handle things correctly, but that's not...
Sometimes people- Yeah ... just mess up. So, but I feel like by the time we would let them go, they had had an opportunity to be walking under a plan to get them where they needed to be. Mm-hmm. And then if they still couldn't follow the policies, then-
Mike Glenn: Which were there for, for their protection ...
Lisa Francisco: which were there for them pr- their protection- Yeah
and the church's protection. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So it's mission, vision-
Lisa Francisco: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: and strategies, values and all of that, but there has to be a budget-
Lisa Francisco: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: that [00:18:00] supports that, and the budget has to be in service of the mission and vision.
Lisa Francisco: Yes.
Mike Glenn: So talk to me about, about how, how we put the budget together.
Lisa Francisco: Okay. So when we, um, when I first got there, it was a little different, so I'm gonna talk about the later days, 'cause I know how to do that budget better.
But we would, um- You want your budget to be a faith budget, but you don't want it to be so out there that there's no way you can achieve it- Right ... because that is demoralizing to everybody. But we would analyze our giving and see, look at the trends in the giving over the years. And of course, the last several years with COVID and whatnot- Right
has been a little more difficult. But we would analyze that. And if we were experienced like a 4% growth every year, well, then that might be a realistic thing-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lisa Francisco: to look at. Um, my predecessor had developed this wonderful thing that I could have never done called a regression analysis. Yeah. But basically, you're just analyzing based on trends, where, where do you think's the highest [00:19:00] you could go, and backing it back down a little bit because you don't wanna push that envelope.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lisa Francisco: But once you get that, what you think your number's going to be, then you have to figure out where are the priorities for our church. Um, th- off the top, we would take the money for the debt wedge when we had the debt. Mm-hmm. And after that, we still took, not as much, but we took some away to go toward what we called our Middle Tennessee Initiative, toward where God may be leading you, but you don't know it yet because He hasn't given you that vision quite yet.
Mm-hmm. He's letting you fund it for it. And for the building reserve, the maintenance reserve, we would put money off the top. But then we allowed people, we would say, um, "You can s- assume you had as much as last year," because we were anticipating growth. But then they would have to justify why they needed more money.
So we'd say, "Here's your dream budget. If you could have whatever you wanted, tell us what you would need and why you need it." Right. Is your preschool ministry growing? They may need more [00:20:00] money this year. Don't just give everybody the same amount increase- Mm-hmm ... because God is not working the same in all the ministries.
Right. So you have to tie it to, you know, if our focus is gospel conversations, then maybe we need to focus more on the, the discipleship this year than, than maybe the mission trips. Or if, um, you know, if we've got a new ministry partner overseas, and with all the catastrophes that are happening-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Lisa Francisco: you know, maybe we need to put more money into missions this year.
Mm-hmm. But figure out how that strategy mish- matches up with your goals that you've set for where you're going.
Mike Glenn: And that, and that is a, a, a hard process. A lot of people, uh, would kind of resist it in that you are hindering the spirit kind of thing by all of these forms, and it's too businesslike and that kind of stuff.
Uh, I would always remind them that, listen, if, if we see God moving, we can change all of this with one vote. We can get the church together and say, "Here is an unexpected, uh, [00:21:00] opportunity that God has put before us, and we need to respond to it." And the church can always change its mind. Yeah. But, uh-
Lisa Francisco: But there again, if you have some reserves that are set aside for what God brings you.
I mean, we'd always have some money in the budget for contingencies. Right. But especially once we started that reserve, the, what we called Middle Tennessee Initiative, once we started that, if we saw somewhere God was working, I mean, just like our, um, our ministry residency program, that was something that came out- Right
because God had encouraged us to set money aside.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Now, as, as we, uh, kind of come, what, to, to, to the end of our conversation in, in this podcast, and we'll have you back just because- Well, th- this, this is an important issue for pastors- Mm-hmm ... and, and the integrity of, uh, of the giving. What, what, what are, what, what are the three things you want, you want our pastor friends to hear?
Lisa Francisco: I would probably encourage you to make sure somebody is looking at your financial statements, whether you're having it done in-house- Mm-hmm ... or, [00:22:00] um, outside of the church by a CPA firm or some bookkeepers or something. Have somebody looking at your finances and making sure if anything acts, looks unusual, that they ask questions.
Not every church needs an audit. Not every church needs to spend money on like that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lisa Francisco: Um, especially if they don't have a bank note. But you might wanna even ask somebody to come in and say, "Okay, can you test some of the procedures over here in payroll?" Or just, just something that'll give you some assurance that everything is running smoothly.
So that would be one of the things if you don't have a finance team. Highly recommend a finance team. Mm-hmm. That would be your person that's looking at your financials. Right.
Third thing, just let, have accountability for where you're spending money. Mm-hmm. You know, whether it's your, if it's you have a deacon board that, um, reviews the budget. Um, of course, it goes before your congregation, but, but have, um, have accountability for where the money's [00:23:00] being spent to make sure that we are acting in line with our mission, vision, values, and, and strategies.
Mike Glenn: And here's the real reason you wanna do this. People give more if they trust the system. If they know if I give X dollars to the church, then it's going to accomplish the mission that you told me it was gonna do, then they'll feel better about giving and be more generous in their giving. And you want to, as, as Paul reminds the early church, uh, refrain from the appearance of evil.
Uh, now, one of my running jokes with Lisa is that every year I would request an airplane. I would, i- in our budget requirements, I would, I would slip in there, what, $85 million for a new jet. Something like that. Something like that. And of course, th- then I would need hangar and maintenance and all of that.
Uh, o- of course, every year it'd get turned down. It was al- always the kind of the running joke that, that we had going. But I can't tell you the freedom it gave me to be able to talk about the finances of Brentwood Baptist Church and to talk [00:24:00] freely about what we were doing with our resources, knowing that I had Lisa Francisco behind me and all of those systems to validate the work that we were doing.
So no matter where you are in church life, if you're just getting started in the church plant, or if you've been there as I was for 30 years, increase the integrity of the system. Yes. It's the first thing you do to increase, uh, your giving. Lisa, it's always a privilege. You know, thank you for your time, and thanks for being here today.
Lisa Francisco: Thank you so much. And if I may, if you all have other questions and need some assistance, Mike knows how to get in touch with me.
Mike Glenn: Well, oh, hey, there you go. There's another free service from the Engaged Church Network. I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engaged Church Network podcast. Thanks for joining us.
