Can You Pastor Where You Grew Up?
In this powerful episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with Ben Anderson, the Senior Pastor at Christ Church Nashville, to talk about the unique calling of leading in the very place you were raised.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I'm the president of the Engage Church Network, and we welcome you to our podcast. And how about the new set for the podcast? Uh, all of our new digs, and we're grateful for the lasting media team and all they have done, uh, to, uh, upgrade our facility and our spot here to do this podcast.
And, uh, so this is the first time, and we'd love to know what you think about it. So, uh, let us know at engagechurchnetwork.com. Today, uh, our guest is a friend of mine, Ben Anderson. Ben is the pastor of Christ Church here in the greater Nashville area, grew up in Iowa. Uh, came here like a lot of people to Nashville with guitar in hand.
That's right. Ended up at Trevecca and got his, uh, uh, MDiv from Vanderbilt, all while being here and all while being part of Christ Church. Uh, and including a stint as, uh, [00:01:00] a member of the staff there- Mm-hmm ... for, for a while. Mm-hmm. And what makes Ben's story interesting is he is a child of Christ Church, served on staff previously to Christ Church, and has a few years ago been asked to come back and pastor that church.
Mm-hmm. Now, uh, now Ben, the, um- The running gag among minister is you can't pastor in your hometown. Right, right. You can't pastor where you grew up. There's a reason all of us leave- Sure The places we grew up. Right, right. I can't pastor a church in Huntsville. Right. Uh, there are too many people there who knew me when I was a kid and, and everything else.
Uh, but you felt the unique calling to come back to a church- Yeah ... that had loved you- Mm-hmm ... in a significant time- Mm-hmm ... in your life, uh, been part of major milestones of your life, uh, and now was open to this whole transition of new people moving in the area, and that every church in Nashville is facing.
Right. So I thought it'd be fun for us to talk about what [00:02:00] is it like to come home. Yeah. And, uh, and what kind of things were you thinking about as they were asking you to come back? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then what have you found out was true about what you were assuming, and- Yeah ... what kind of things have surprised you?
Yeah,
Ben Anderson: yeah. Well, maybe the place to start, uh, would be, uh, you know, you'll hear stories from pastors that they, they were, they were called to ministry when they were 12- Right, yeah ... they, they knew that, and my story's the opposite of that. I, I, I, I believed I was... You know, music was my life, and that's what I was supposed to do and going to do.
And so when Erin, my wife, and I got married in, in 2000, um, we were, uh, living in Nashville. Christ Church is where we found ourselves and believed that's where we were supposed to be as a newly married couple. She was in graduate school at MTSU. I was playing music and, and on the road most of the time, and, um, so had no idea that vocational ministry, as we call it, you know, would be in, in my future.
That was not on my radar. It was not my agenda at all. And but what happened at Christ Church were [00:03:00] relationships that, that, that God brought into our, uh, purview and, and, and relationships that were formed started to, to, to feed us. And so, uh, long story short- And, and significant l- relationships with pastors- Yeah
and associate pastors. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Because when, when music became something that was, um, uh, very much revealed to be an idol in my own life, and, and I went through a real crisis, not of faith, but a crisis of identity. You know, who am I and what am I supposed to be doing? Right, right. And- If I don't have a guitar, then who am I?
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and I, and it, I didn't recognize at first what it was as, as God calling me into a very different, you know, not only way of life, but a whole different- career, all of it. And it was people that were part of Christ Church that, that helped me navigate that, that saw that and were able to see God's call on my life before I did, honestly.
And, and they weren't pushy and didn't try to tell me, you know, "This is what you're supposed to be doing with your life, Ben," as a, as a 20-something kid as I was at the time. But they asked questions, and they encouraged me, and they were there [00:04:00] for me and, and, and for Erin. And, and even when she and I were going through some of the rockiest times of our, our young marriage, um, there were, there were elders in that church, and I say that as not just, not just, uh, recognized elders, but just older saints of God who loved us and encouraged us and, and were there for us and with us.
And so eventually, when I would come off the road and would, would answer God's call to leave the music industry and become Be much more dedicated to what it was mean to serve the church. I, I had no idea what that meant. I just, I could, I could drive a bus- ... so I could drive a shuttle bus for Christ Church.
That's right. Yeah. I, I was doing- Yeah ... you know, whatever they needed me to do. Uh, one of the first things I got asked to do was, was serve with junior high boys in their, in their ministry at that point. And- Yeah, if you can survive junior high boys- Man, well, yeah ... you, you can do ministry. Yeah. So. I mean, I, I loved, I loved the outdoors.
Yeah. I loved, you know, all these kinds of things. They're like, "Hey, we, we need a guy like you to help- Mm-hmm ... with these, with these young men and these, these kids." And so I just s- started saying yes to almost everything I could. And, and we didn't have, uh, uh, uh, any kids yet. Our, our first was gonna be on the way, uh, shortly [00:05:00] after this.
But it was a situation where I just got involved, I got plugged in, and, uh, what, what happened is people would start to recognize, again, gifts in me- Mm-hmm ... that I didn't know were there. Right. Uh, a call on my life that I didn't know was there yet. And, um, because of the relationships that God brought into my life and, and, and the life of my wife and I, um, it was the saints of God who helped me see things in a perspective that I c- I couldn't have seen on my own.
Yeah, yeah. My, my experience
Mike Glenn: was- Yeah ... very much the same. Yeah. The church, the, the church around me knew before I knew. That's
Ben Anderson: right That's right. That's right Yeah. Mm-hmm And so, you know, it got to the point where, um, you know, I was- my undergraduate degree was in biology, pre-med. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, I'm an Iowa farm kid that's- that's, you know, good at fronting a bar band.
Mm-hmm. And like, you know, so- so- so when- so when the church came to me and said, "Ben, we've got an opening in our- in our children's ministry. We- we really think you should consider this," I was like- Mm-hmm ... "Uh, yeah, uh, why wouldn't I be the perfect..." I'm like, "What- what are you thinking?" Yeah. "Why would
Mike Glenn: you-" Everything in my life- Yeah
has prepared me for this moment. Oh,
Ben Anderson: yeah. [00:06:00] So by that time, you know, my wife was, um, uh, uh, part of the faculty at- at Trevecca Nazarene University here in town. And- and, uh, and at that time, as the spouse of a faculty member, I could go earn a master's degree tuition-free. And I said, "Well, that- that's a no-brainer."
And- and the church supported me in that. They said, "Yep, when you've gotta go as part of that cohort at the beginning of the semester, end of the semester, go do it. We're gonna support you." Uh, Pastor Dan Scott, senior pastor at that time, was my biggest supporter, said, "Yeah, absolutely, you need to go do this, and we're gonna be behind you e- every step of the way."
So I did. I went and did a, uh, MA in biblical studies and- and kept working full time in children's ministry, and that's... This was about 2008 or so. That's when- when, um, uh, God just started to really explode in my own heart what- what this call was and- and what that could be. In- in the process of your studies?
In my studies, and then how does this actually apply? 'Cause I- I had the blessing of, at that time, I'm going to school, uh, you know, full time as a grad student, and I'm in ministry full time. Yeah, right. And I'm a- and I'm a young dad- Mm-hmm ... and- and husband. And so- so with [00:07:00] all of that, uh, I'm- I'm not only learning in a capacity I never had before in terms of whether it's theology or biblical studies or pastoral care- Mm-hmm
and all of these things, but I'm- I'm getting a chance to put it into practice walking out- Yeah, you're field testing it pretty quick Yeah, absolutely, whether that's in teaching or whether that's in- in walking through something with somebody on my children's ministry team going through hard things in life.
And, uh, so it was, uh, just a... And- and as a- and as a student going back to school, um, you know, as an adult, uh, I appreciated it so much more than I did when I was 18, you know? And what am I actually learning and why versus you just go to college 'cause that's what you're supposed to do when you graduate high school.
And so for me, it was, uh... And- and- and what I'm trying to say is Christ Church, they supported me 100% in that and- and just was- was so excited that I was able to To benefit from that, grow in that, and it really was a place, and more importantly, a people who supported, "Okay, here's what we see God calling Ben to.
How do we support him- Yeah ... and his family in this?" Okay. Yeah. And then they sent you out. Yeah, so well, [00:08:00] so it was a case where it, it w- g- uh, sent me out maybe unintentionally you might say. Churches do some of their best work. Yeah. Well, you know, there was... E- exactly. Exactly. God ... You know, God has a way of working those things- That's right
for our good, right? But there was a time where, you know, there was some staff restructuring, and I was, I was part of a, a team that, that got cut down and, uh, and reduced in, in size and, and there was no animosity there. We knew- Right ... it was coming and, and, and again, uh, uh, mentors there, uh, w- including the senior pastor, Dan Scott, at that time who were 100% behind me and, and, and I, I saw that as a time where, okay, maybe God's gonna let me do something else for a while.
Mm-hmm. And, and this is before the online revolution in education. Right, right. So I, I said, "I wanna finish my MDiv. Uh, how do I do that?" I, I, I had two young kids at the time. My wife's working full time. Wasn't gonna move to Duke or Fuller or anywhere like that. Mm-hmm. And said, "How do we do that here in Nashville?"
Well, you know, we got Vanderbilt. And, uh, uh, ended up, was able to earn a scholarship to Vandy and, and said, "Okay, if I do this [00:09:00] two years," you know? Mm-hmm. And so my wife and I, we cut everything out of the household budget we possibly could. And, you know, just everything we could, we could cut back, we did.
Everything we could eliminate, we did. Yeah. Selling stuff and, and just go... I mean, literally going on faith saying, "Okay, God, if you're gonna make this happen..." And I'm telling you, Mike, it was... We didn't, we didn't... You know, there was no GoFundMe then. Yeah, right. There was no like, "Hey, you wanna support me?" I mean, we, we, we, we, we could've sent the m- letters old school missionary style- Mm-hmm
but we didn't do that. But I'll tell you what, there were people from Christ Church who just started sending checks, and I'd go to the mailbox, and every, every two months- It'd be- ... every three months- There'd be enough ... there'd be enough there. And whatever we were short that month, I mean, sure enough, here it is there.
Mm-hmm. And after, you know, somebody would do that two or three times, and I, I would approach them, you know, oftentimes- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we were still going- Right ... as a part of Christ Church in that community. And I would go and, and, and talk to them about this, and I had more than one person say, "You know what?
God, God told us- Mm-hmm ... we're supposed to support you in this time. And whatever God's doing now and what God wants to do in the future, we're a part of it in this way now." Yeah, yeah, we, we wanna invest in it
Mike Glenn: now. [00:10:00] Yeah.
Ben Anderson: And so Erin and I were so blessed. We were so humbled. And what that did for our faith- Mm-hmm
what that did for us to, to trust in, okay, what God is doing now and what that means for God's purposes in and through our lives in the future a- as... A- a- and not having any idea where that would go, 'cause I di- I, I thought maybe I was gonna head into academia. Mm-hmm. I, I really enjoyed that aspect. I thought maybe I'll go on and do a doctorate and go somewhere- Mm-hmm
in that field. Teach. Yeah, I didn't know if I'd be in a local pastoral setting. I had... I'd never served as a senior pastor at that point before. Mm-hmm. Um, and so when it came to being both hands wide open saying, "God, you do what you wanna do," but what he was doing was, was building faith in us- Yeah ... to trust him, and he was doing it through his people- Yeah, bui-
in powerful ways ... building
Mike Glenn: that trust of- Yeah, yeah K- the consistency- Absolutely ... of hi- of his faithfulness. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's right. You know, you can, you can, you can talk about that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. But Yeah ... but until you're praying on your way to the mailbox- Right.
Ben Anderson: Oh, yeah ... few, few of us
Mike Glenn: understand-
Ben Anderson: No
[00:11:00] what this means. Exactly, exactly. Mm-hmm. To know what it is for him to provide, and, and it's not that God is stingy, but what it does for God, like you said, I mean, to provide what w- Yeah ... just enough, right? Right. What we need. And, and knowing that he's gonna be faithful to do that- Yeah ... man- Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: what that does to- The alignment between what we needed- Yes
and what he provided. That's right.
Ben Anderson: That's right.
Mike Glenn: That was what got me- Yeah ... was- Exactly ... was how these things consistently- That's right How, how clear that is. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Were the same.
Ben Anderson: Here's what I need. That's right. And here's what we got. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly, which removes any, you know, doubt that, that, that God isn't doing this.
Yeah, yeah. Right? And so when we experienced that, and, and so what that would lead to was, um, finished at Vanderbilt. I had a dear, dear friend of mine that I had served in ministry with at Christ Church before. He was part of a church plant in Smyrna, and, uh, he was coming after me saying, "Ben, I want you to come be my executive pastor."
Mm-hmm. Uh, that's like the one role in the church I didn't, I didn't want.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.
Ben Anderson: It was one of those things where like I, I- A-
Mike Glenn: and
Ben Anderson: nothing in your life
Mike Glenn: has prepared you- [00:12:00] No, no, no ... to, to do the- Yeah ... to do the dirty work- Yeah ... of a, of a local congregation.
Ben Anderson: Right. It's like, it's like the, I, I, I, I think I, I can do this, but that doesn't mean I wanna do this, right?
And, and so I, you know, I was applying for other positions, and, and, uh, it, it was just something where, uh, "Okay, God, what do you want me to do, and what do you have for my family in this time?" And, and so enough time had gone by, and enough doors had either closed or stayed closed that I just got to the point where I said, "Okay, God, it has to be what you want to do."
And so my good friend, um, Scott Horde again, he was pastoring at, at Christ Life in Smyrna at the time. He, he, he came to me and said, "Okay, we're, we're ready, and we need you." And, and, and I knew if I could do it for anybody, it was him. I, I believed in, in the vision that that church had, and, and him at the helm, and his gifts of evangelism and, and leadership.
And I said, "Okay, I... Okay, God, if you're calling me to this, let's, let's do this." And that turned into five and a half years of, of a whole other kind of education that, that I didn't even know I needed. Sure, yeah. And yet God, in his [00:13:00] grace and goodness, provided that, and it prepared me, uh, so much so in ways that I could never have anticipated, so that when Christ Church called me then in 2019 and said, "Ben, we wanna invite you into this discernment process.
We think maybe you might be one of the candidate scouts calling us to look at for the lead pastor position," um- You know, to quote the great prophet Clark W. Griswold, "If I'd have woken up with my head sewn to the carpet tomorrow- ... I would not have been more surprised." I ju- I just did not expect that at all.
Yeah. And, but I had learned by that point that my response to that initial phone call, because of the faith God had built in, in my wife and I, I said, I said, "Can you give us a week to pray? And let me talk to Erin, and we're gonna pray about this. Can I call you back in a week and, and we'll see what the Lord is saying?"
And, uh, so that's where we ended up. And, and so that led to a six-month discernment process where, um, you know, I, I, I'd been on staff at Christ Church before for, for four years, had been there another three years, [00:14:00] um, not on staff, but serving in a variety of capacities while I was in graduate school. Um, so, you know, like every church, I, I knew the strengths.
I knew where weaknesses were. Um, you know, as we say, I mean, I'd, I've, I'd been there long enough and, and, and deep enough to know how the sausage was made. Right. And, you know, and as, as anybody does who's been in ministry, any pastors with us today know exactly what that means. You, you see all the great things and the not so great things.
And so I, I thought maybe in that process I was the candidate that they were looking at that, that had that kind of inside information and experience and, and could do that, uh, to ask some of the questions that nobody else could about what is this next season going to be in the life of Christ Church and-
Mike Glenn: Now, now for those- Man
uh, who are outside of, of, of the Nashville experience, uh, may not know that, that Christ Church- Mm-hmm ... and its history was at one point- Yeah ... the church. Sure. The founder- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... was the bishop to everybody. Yeah, yeah,
Ben Anderson: yeah.
Mike Glenn: Pastor L.H. Hardwig. Yeah. Uh- He was, he was amazing. Yeah. [00:15:00] Amazing. L- L.H., I mean, everybody that's been in Brentwood- Yes
uh, and when I came to Brentwood, anybody in Nashville has an L.H. story. Right, right, right. Uh, where he'd call me, we went out to lunch, we prayed, we did this, we did this or- Yeah, absolutely ... or something like that. Absolutely. And, and now you are Following Well, yeah. So I mean, you
Ben Anderson: got, I mean- In, in- ... 75 almost
big, big shoes Oh, man. Well, and that's a job they tell you never to take. Yeah, yep. You know, never, never take that position- Yeah ... right, after that, after that guy. But it was a situation where, you know, you've got Christ Church that's almost 75 years old, has only had three- Right ... senior pastors in its history.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I'm the third. And, and so you had, you know, uh, like I say, Pastor L.H. Hardwick, uh, church was founded. He's, he's 18 years old. It's, it was family members that called him to, to preach and- Mm-hmm ... and, and what that became over the ... I mean, he was almost 65 years- Right ... you know, he was in that capacity.
Mm-hmm. And so like you said, what the relationships he built- Oh, yeah ... the influence that he had, who he was as a, as a man of God and a, and a, and a true servant in the [00:16:00] community, the, of, of greater Nashville- Mm-hmm ... uh, the impact is, is still resonating and will for a long, long time, for all kinds of- Right
good reasons. So Pastor Dan Scott, who had been an associate, uh, pastor that Brother Hardwick had brought in, uh, for, uh, many years, he had been there in the '80s, was with a, uh, a church in, in, in Phoenix for a while- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... came back, um, in the early 2000s and, and served as a senior pastor for 10 years.
And Dan was, was, and still is a, a mentor to me. And so he was the one ... I'll never forget the day ... I mean, I'm, you know, I'm working 20 hours a week in, in children's ministry, still trying to figure out what I'm gonna do with my life- ... in 2000, you know, 7. And he calls me into his office one day and he ... I'll never forget it.
He looked at me and he says, "Ben, do you, do you see the call on your life to pastor?" And I just looked right back at him and said, "No, I don't."
And he said, "Well, I do." Yeah. "I do." Mm-hmm. And, and it was just one of those, you know, we all have those moments in our lives where, where everything before and then everything after- Mm-hmm ... that's that fulcrum moment- Yeah ... where, where [00:17:00] things really change. Mm-hmm. And that was- People
Mike Glenn: forget- Man ... the importance of Eli's role- Yes.
Ben Anderson: Yeah,
Mike Glenn: that's right ... to tell Samuel-
Ben Anderson: Yep ... "Listen." "Listen, listen." Yeah. Yep. I know who that is- Mm-hmm ... if you don't. Mm-hmm. Right. And that's, that's what it was. And so I'll always be thankful to, uh, to Dan for that reason. I mean- Yeah ... it was great. And, and so, and he helped me then. I mean, putting me help, when it came to mentorship, when it came to teaching and, and giving me opportunities- Mm-hmm
to grow as a, you know, a, a, the call to teach, the call to serve in those capacities, um- Well, well Dan has a reputation of being quite the academic. He is. He is. And, uh- Brilliant ... real scholar ... brilliant guy. Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And, uh, you know, he easily could have served in, in the academic world- Mm-hmm
and, and has in different capacities. Right. But, but that call to pastor and, and, and mentor other pastors has also been on his life too.
Mike Glenn: So baby boy comes home. Yeah,
Ben Anderson: yeah. Yeah. So at the end, I mean, again, it, it, it came down to, uh, me and, and my family. And so, you know, we got in there in July. It's almost six years now.
It was July of 2019, about six months [00:18:00] before COVID- Mm-hmm ... changed the world. Um, and so, you know, I, I knew there'd be all kinds of growing pains. I knew, you know, as, as you've talked about many times on, on this podcast and other places, I mean, COVID changed- It sure did ... the game- Yeah ... right, for everybody.
And so no matter what any church was before or how it functioned, what the systems were in that church before, COVID, it- Mm-hmm ... shifted all of that. Mm-hmm. And, uh, especially we were so aware of how that happened for us locally in the Middle Tennessee area especially. So, um, whatever growing pains you'd expect, y- you know, with a new pastor and, and even, even coming back home- Right
so to speak. I mean, and that has its, its benefits. Uh, you know, people had trust in me. There are plenty of people- Mm-hmm ... that knew me from before. Um, but in some ways, you know, I, it'd been 10 years. I'd, I'd changed some things. Well, and the
Mike Glenn: other thing is you're, you're, you're still a boy to them- Yes. Oh, yeah
because they take a picture of you- Right, right ... and put it in their brain- Yeah ... but they don't let
Ben Anderson: you grow up-
Mike Glenn: No ... from that
Ben Anderson: picture. No, no, no. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. [00:19:00] Um, and so, so you're, you're dealing with some of those things. And so then when it comes to here, you know, what are the things that maybe God is asking us to- Mm-hmm
to change? Uh, what are the things that God's asking us to, to trust him in and move toward for the future? Um, you know, one of the things that, that I knew coming back to Christ Church, but I've had to absolutely deal with and, and, and try to lovingly, pastorally deal with over the last five and a half years, you know, people don't fear change, they fear the loss- Yeah
that they're afraid that change- Right ... is gonna bring. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, that idea of like how do people get to a point where they can see or, or believe or trust that the change- Mm-hmm ... the, the benefit, the goodness is gonna outweigh the loss. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think one of the reasons God brought- me back, uh, in this capacity is, is I think for some folks, uh, the familiarity and, and- Mm-hmm
having been a, a Christ Church- Mm ... son you might say-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Ben Anderson: um, has helped with some of that.
Mike Glenn: Now, now l- let's, [00:20:00] again, just, just for folks listening, it wasn't necessarily anything bad- Right ... in your church's history that you had to change. No, no, no. I mean, this was a strong reputation. Sure. The worship ministry was- Right
literally world famous. Right. Right. And, uh, people don't realize it, on, on a lot of the old TV shows- Yeah ... if Dolly Parton was singing or somebody- Right ... they'd be the Christ Church choir backing them up. That's right. That's right. That's right. And so, but you, but everything else has changed. Everything else has changed.
And so what- Yeah ... used to work, the language that used to work- Right ... is no longer as relevant.
Ben Anderson: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Exactly. So yeah, not only- Yeah ... do you have change, but you have changed something that in most people's mind was working.
Ben Anderson: Right. That's right. That's right. So when you see, and a good illustration of that for this is, is this example.
So you'll still have a, a, a number of people who will show up on a Sunday morning- Mm-hmm ... because they've, they've heard something about a particular, like you say, a music ministry- Right ... or choir or whatever else- Mm-hmm ... and they're, they're interested in that. Uh, at Christ Church, we will see, [00:21:00] um, just as many if not more people who will show up on a Sunday morning after they've been a part of our recovery ministry- Yeah
for many, many weeks. Mm-hmm. Or they've been a part of somebody's small group- Right ... in their home for three months. Right. And finally accepted the invitation from somebody they've grown to trust- Mm-hmm ... and, and be like, okay- Mm-hmm ... uh, whatever these people are experiencing at that church- Yeah, the front
Mike Glenn: door of the church has moved It has.
It has. It's
Ben Anderson: now the front door of your house. Right. Yeah. Right? It's the front door of that group- Mm-hmm ... where people are seeking real help with real problems in life. Mm-hmm. And so, so I think that's what has changed so much. I mean, COVID, people who, if they didn't know it before, they learned they can get so much information online- Mm-hmm
anywhere they want, whether that's preaching, whether that's, you know, consumption of, of great worship music. Mm-hmm. Whatever it is, that's really available in so many places to people. Mm-hmm. But, but now it's like, now where, where do I find people who can in some way understand what I'm facing? Mm-hmm. And they know something about how, how [00:22:00] this Jesus knows something about- Yeah
dealing with what I'm facing. Yeah. And- And who will
Mike Glenn: love me in spite of everything. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Anderson: Yeah. So that was something, when I came back to Christ Church, I said, I said the two areas of emphasis that I think God is really l- inviting us to lean into more than anything, it has to be intentional relational discipleship.
Real relationships- Mm-hmm ... and how God's calling us to grow in those and expand those to those around us, and its local mission. Right. How do we be the church in the community we're in?
Mike Glenn: Now let's, let's talk about the difference of, of what you just said there. When, when I was coming in to, to the ministry and I was being Given, given what we would measure.
Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, now that may be an unofficial meeting or whatever- ... but you were told what you were gonna be held accountable for. Right, right. And one of them was attendance. Yeah. How many people are here? And so the ability to relate to hundreds of people at the same time- Yeah ... or 500 people at the same time- Right
a thousand people, so that you, you develop this gift of being on the [00:23:00] platform- Mm-hmm ... but making it look like it's a, you know, an- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... a, a conversation. The reality is now for the church, and the church in the coming future, I believe- Yeah ... is gonna be small groups, relationships- Yes ... somebody I know and somebody who knows me.
That's it. Now, that has been a, a radical change- Yes ... uh, from the way I was, uh, held accountable to the success of my ministry. Yes.
Ben Anderson: Yeah. Yeah, and I think the reason for that is because the dynamics of trust have changed radically- Right. Yeah. Okay, good ... in the American church, right? Mm-hmm. Because, because the fact that you and I as pastors, i- i- d- 50 years ago, that would be a mark, well, we're trustworthy people.
Right. Right. In, in popular culture today, that makes us suspect. Yeah. Right? And,
Mike Glenn: and, and well, I tell people, you know, when somebody says, "Be quiet, you're preaching-"
Ben Anderson: Yeah, right, right ... that's not
Mike Glenn: a
Ben Anderson: compliment. No, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. That's right. Or, or, and, and because of, because of what we see almost on a weekly basis- Yeah
of scandal or, you know, [00:24:00] uh, abuse or dishonesty in the church, and, and there's, there's- You almost
Mike Glenn: have to qualify
Ben Anderson: yourself. Right. I mean, yes, I'm a, I'm a pastor, but, but I'm not that kind of a pastor. No, that kind ... Right. Sure. So, so on the street today or in, in just in popular culture, you know, there, there's as many people who are suspicious of churches- Mm-hmm
and church leaders as they ever would be, "That's where- Yeah ... I should go for help," right? And so I think that's what's made the difference is even if you try to be as relatable and approachable and- Mm-hmm ... on, on, you know, in, in- Right ... in how you preach, people really don't know, well, who is he off the platform?
Who is he at home? Right. Would, would his wife, if I ask her who he really is, right, would his kids- Well, I tell,
Mike Glenn: I tell pastors I work with now that people watch how you treat your wife- Before they ever listen to a word you
Ben Anderson: say. Yeah. Or they should, right? Yeah, they do. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think that's, you know, the difference, like you said, with small groups is, and that's what we see this all the time- Mm-hmm
with, with, with Christ Church, is, is people, the, you know, they invite their neighbors in, they invite other people from work, other, you know- Mm-hmm ... "Come over to our small group on Tuesday night." Yeah. [00:25:00] "Just come. It, it'll be great." Right. And, and they, they get around a group of people, like you say, where they actually get to know, okay- Right
these, these people, they're not just talking about this. Mm-hmm. They actually live this way. Mm-hmm. They actually do care about each other. They do help each other with their needs. Mm-hmm. They actually do pray for each other and, and, and see God move. And when I
Mike Glenn: tell them I got a big meeting Thursday, they'll call me on Thursday and- That's right
ask me how it went or-
Ben Anderson: Exactly. Exactly ... text me
Mike Glenn: early in the morning, "Been praying for you today."
Ben Anderson: That's it. That's it. So many people today, and it's not just young people, I see this in seniors every day. So many people are asking the questions, "Am I, am I seen? Am I known?" Mm-hmm. Right. "Am I loved?" Mm-hmm. "Do I belong," right?
Mm-hmm. That's, in my opinion, that's not getting better. That's getting worse in our culture- Right ... the, the conditions that lead people- Oh, yeah ... to doubt that, right? Oh, yeah. And, and so what people are genuinely looking for is, is d- can I be a part of something where I can begin to believe- Mm-hmm ... that, that I am seen, I am known, I am loved, I, I do belong?
And not just this polished version of myself- Right, right ... but for who I really am. Yeah. And [00:26:00] if, and if, if I am brave enough to share my, my needs, my sins, my faults, my failures, my fears- Mm-hmm ... will I still be accepted? Will I still be... Will, will these people still embrace me and come alongside with me?
Mm-hmm. I, I believe the New Testament teaches us clearly that's who the church- Yeah, right ... is supposed
Mike Glenn: to
Ben Anderson: be.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, and that's why AA is sometime- That's it. Yes ... sometimes the, the, you were talking about the recovery ministry earlier. Yep. Yep. Uh, sometimes the best churches around are- That's right ... AA meetings.
Yeah, that's
Ben Anderson: right. That's right. Exactly. So- Exactly. Yeah. I tell people all the time, I mean, as we, as we, uh, have heavily invested in, uh, recovery ministry, I mean, especially with, with human resources, uh, with Christ Church, I, I, the, the story of grace, in my opinion, is, is all of us as Christians should understand that we are in recovery.
Yeah. I mean, that's what, to be saved- Yeah, yeah ... is to know I, I'm in recovery by the grace of God. Everybody's an addict. Yep, that's it. Everybody's an
Mike Glenn: addict. Everybody's dealing with something, so. That's it. That's
Ben Anderson: it,
Mike Glenn: and we all need that. So what has surprised you coming back?
Ben Anderson: Uh,
Mike Glenn: what surprised
Ben Anderson: me? Uh, y- a, a n- a number of things.
Um, uh, the things that I think I- [00:27:00] thought I was better equipped in than I, than I was. The things, the things where I had confidence- Yeah ... that I, that I don't anymore. Yeah, we've learned humility, right? That's just The things that I thought surely- Right ... if I just preach about this- Right, yeah, it'll change them.
Yeah ... it'll change things. Yeah. You know? They'll see that, yeah. Uh, and, and that's, and that's not just in, in my leadership role or pastoral role. That's just, you know, if I can just be candid as a, as a, as a human being, um, you know, it's true that, that, that we can't change anybody. No. Uh, you know, I believe the, the gospel teaches us we really can't even change ourselves.
You know, we, we can partner- No ... with God. Yes, right. You know, uh, but, but it's gotta be the Holy Spirit at work in us- Mm-hmm ... that's really gonna bring any real and lasting change. And, uh, and so that's something where, yes, humbled. Uh, what I've really learned, um, is, is just time, right? Mm-hmm. And, and one of my greatest fears has always been I, I never wanna be passive, but at the same time I've learned you, you, you cannot [00:28:00] push anything faster...
You can't lead if- Mm-hmm ... if, if people are not w- willing or able to follow at a pace that is healthy.
Mike Glenn: Well, and one of the things that we forget is that the Spirit has to do the work on the other side. That's
Ben Anderson: right. That's right. Yes.
Mike Glenn: And, and will, and will not allow- Mm ... you to move until the Spirit's done the work that he needs to do there.
Yeah, that's so good. And, and- That's so true ... and we're like the first grader who keeps digging the butter bean up- Yeah ... out of the milk carton. How's this doing? Yeah, and we- Yeah ... and we wonder why it won't grow.
Ben Anderson: That's right. Yes. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So patience and, um, you know, uh, the, the, the, the impact and the, the- Uh, power of fear in people's lives.
Oh, yeah. How ... And, and I don't think people see that on the surface, uh- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... as readily for what it is. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, uh, it's so easy for us to say, "I trust God. I trust God. I have faith." Right. "I, I believe, I believe." Mm-hmm. And yet we, you know, we don't, we don't take Paul at his word. [00:29:00] We don't pray about everything.
We worry about- Yeah ... everything and anything, right? And so the impact that can have on people, and, and again, fear of, of, of change because of fear of loss. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, w- I, I pastor a congregation where we have, um, such diversity of generations, which is- Mm-hmm ... is a blessing, but it's also a, a great challenge.
I mean- Right ... many churches today, and, and, you know, pastors listening to this will know, I mean, we have plenty of churches where it's, it's 40 and under and/or it's- And 40 above ... and 40 and above, right? I think the most segregation we see is generationally- Mm-hmm ... in our, in our climate today. Uh, Christ Church, we have generational diversity, but I tell people all the time, it takes, it takes hard work and a willingness to embrace that- Mm-hmm
and reach across those generational divides. Right. You know? But the one thing everybody has, has in common, if they're honest, is there's, there's something they're afraid of. And if we'll be honest about that and e- and expect God to meet us- Mm-hmm ... in that across those ... I mean, it's beautiful th- what we see God do.
Yeah, when you see the family come together- Yeah ... like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:30:00] And, and getting people to understand they really are a part of the body of Christ that is needed. And you're responsible to it- Yes ... and responsible for it. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I don't think I can preach or teach or say over cups of coffee that enough- Yeah
that, that the body needs you. Yeah. And you need the body.
Mike Glenn: Well, I tell senior adults all the time, "I, I know your grandchildren live in another state- Yes ... and that frustrates you."
Ben Anderson: Yeah. "
Mike Glenn: But this church is full of grandchildren-"
Ben Anderson: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: That's right ... who, who need you to adopt them- That's right. That's it
and to tell them they're the most beautiful child that's ever been born- Yeah, that's right. ... and the smartest child that's ever been born- Oh, yeah. Yeah ... 'cause the world beats it out of them. Totally. Totally. A- and to have that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, we've had a conversation, uh, with, with our pastors here and our church leaders from various congregations across Middle Tennessee and other places.
What's the one thing you wanna leave them with?
Ben Anderson: Be patient and be encouraged. Yeah. Do- the one who has called you is [00:31:00] faithful. Mm. The one who has called you is faithful. And so don't, don't doubt the call, but more importantly, don't doubt the one who issues the call.
Mike Glenn: Who called them. Yeah. Ah, good stuff. He's Ben Anderson, and that's why we wanted him to be a guest on our, the first time on this new set.
And I'm Mike Glenn, Engage Church Network. Thanks for being with us today.
