Long Haul Leadership: Creating a Ministry That Lasts
In this episode, Mike Glenn, President of the Engage Church Network, sits down with Dr. Danny Akin, President of Southeastern Seminary, to confront a growing crisis in the church: We have more pulpits than pastors—and fewer leaders being trained to fill them.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, my name is Mike Glenn, and you have joined us for the Engage Church Network podcast. We are grateful you are here with us. Our guest today is my longtime friend, Danny Akin. Danny has been, uh, a leader in Southern Baptist life, well, e- ever since I've been aware of Southern Baptist life, it seems like.
Uh, a theologian, professor, author, uh, and has been ... Did I read this right? Have you been the president of Southeastern since 2004? That's right, Mike. Th- oh, my word. I had, I, I knew it had, it had been a [00:01:00] long, sustained, uh, leadership thing, but one, uh, n- no president of a seminary lasts that long these days. Uh, uh, so congratulations.
The only one I know beyond that
Dr. Danny Akin: is, uh, Jeff Orge went over 20 years. Right, right. And Al, Al was now over, Al's over 30.
Mike Glenn: Oh, my word. Uh, well, congratulations on that. Thank you. And I, as a Southern Baptist, am very, very grateful for your leadership. Uh, we spend a lot of time talking to pastors and leadership of, uh, of churches, uh, in the area.
That, the local church is our focus. I know that's, uh, your heartbeat as well. Uh, w- I know you share my concern with, uh, the leadership pipeline of, of how we're calling, developing, identifying pastors and, and, and getting them trained. What have you noticed over your time and, uh, and how are you leading Southeastern to, to respond to this challenge?
Dr. Danny Akin: Well, I think you're exactly right. We're [00:02:00] not just in a challenging moment. I think, Mike, it's almost a crisis, uh, where we've got far more churches than we do pastors. There's an aging that's taking place in the pastorate, and there's not a pool to draw from to replace them. And so it's something that, in the last several years, uh, Southeastern in particular has become very intentional about.
I'll give you one example. Uh, we have a very gracious, uh, donor who has the same concern. So over the last several years, we've been able to provide, if you come on campus, which, uh, I'm in, I'm very thankful for online education- But there's no replacement for the face-to-face, one-on-one mentoring that takes place when you're in a seminary context.
Uh, we have been able to provide dozens and dozens and dozens, probably 30 or 40 annually, full scholarships plus assistance in housing [00:03:00] for men that are gonna go into the pastorate. So, uh, one, we're trying to make it as easy financially as possible, but secondly, I think we lost over several, uh, decades, the sense of calling.
We were not, uh, actively, uh, as the phrase goes, calling out the called, and we weren't putting before men the, uh, challenge, uh, and the honor of being a pastor. And, uh, for some people, uh, I think they just kinda look at the pastor as, "Well, yeah, this is kind of a, a job opportunity. I'll give it a shot, and if it doesn't work, I'll go do something else."
I don't know about you. I th- I suspect you're very much like me. God called me into the ministry, and it was a very clear, decisive moment, and the idea of ever doing something else just has never in my, now coming close to 50 years [00:04:00] in ministry, never entered my mind because God had called me to do this, and there was nothing else I could do.
And I think- I literally
Mike Glenn: could not see my... I could not find my self-identity outside of being a pastor. Absolutely. I didn't know how to talk about me- Yeah ... if, if I weren't in, in the local church.
Dr. Danny Akin: No. And, and God- Yeah ... in His providence directed me into seminary education. But again, if people say to me, "Well, if you were not in the ministry, what would you do?"
I don't know. Yeah, that's me. I'm not trained to do anything else, and I don't wanna do anything else. This, this is what God's calling- Yeah ... is on my life, and I think we lost that, and I'm grateful, uh, Shane Pruitt and Scott Pace came out with a book a couple of years ago on calling out the called. Right.
Really, really well done, and I think we've gotta get back to that. I think that's one thing we can do to try to raise again the bar, uh, and, and challenge men to reach for it- Mm-hmm ... in terms of what a privilege it is [00:05:00] that God would call you, and that He would call you to shepherd His,
Mike Glenn: uh, body- Right ... His church.
Right. Uh, one of the things that we're trying to do the, at the Engage Church Network is work with pastors and remind them that every Paul makes a Timothy. Amen. That part, part of their calling is to identify, develop, mentor, and then release to kingdom service the next generation of pastors. Uh, and, and I don't- I think one of the greatest-
Dr. Danny Akin: I think one of the greatest compliments- I don't, I don't know that
Mike Glenn: everybody understands that.
Yeah.
Dr. Danny Akin: No. I think one of the greatest compliments of a successful ministry is that there are Timothys- Right ... running around everywhere from their Paul. Uh, I think of my dear friend, uh, Al Jackson at Lakeview Church in Auburn, Alabama, and there are- Yeah ... dozens. And n- now, he would admit being near a university that's got a strong Christian presence was a part of that, but nevertheless, there are dozens and dozens and dozens of Al Jackson disciples [00:06:00] running- Right
around everywhere, and I think that ought to be the model that, uh, a pastor strives for. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, some pastors get so busy with the work of ministry, they neglect, I think, a most critical part of the work of the ministry, and that is what you just said a moment ago, raising up young Timothys to take hold of the mantle when the time is right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. The African American church does this much better than, than, uh- Mm ... the typical, uh, Caucasian church, in that, uh, uh, you always talk to a pastor or a bishop, and he will talk about his boys. Yes. And they're people. They're, they're, they're young men who have served with him, been a research assistant or a driver or, or something like that, and he has poured into their lives in that serving time and raised up the next generation of pastors.
Dr. Danny Akin: They live life with him.
Mike Glenn: That's right, yeah, yeah. V- you know, kinda like the disciples did with Jesus. I don't know where we would get that model. Yes, exactly. Exactly. [00:07:00] I don't know where we get that model from. One of, one of the things that, uh, eh, that, uh, has, has kinda caught my attention is the critical need for continual education and training among our pastors.
For instance, uh, when, when I started my ministry, uh, fresh out of Southern Seminary, uh, transgenderism was not an issue. No. Now is it. Now it is an issue, and it is a very complex issue. So how would you, how would you talk to a young pastor or any pastor about how you model a continuing education and a continuing growth, uh, in your understanding of this thing we call the Gospel?
Dr. Danny Akin: That is a great question, because I think, unfortunately, some men see it as, "When I graduate from seminary, I've done my education. Now I go into ministry," and the education component falls by the wayside. Course, what we try to do here at [00:08:00] Southeastern is merge ministry and education together. While they're here, uh, getting an education, we want them to be involved from the get-go in ministry so that their feet are on the ground.
They don't become ivory tower- And they actually are living life with real people as they are getting their education. That's one of the blessings of our Equip program, where students are out in churches where they can even earn credit toward their, uh, master's degree, and they're involved in real-life ministry with, with real people.
That's one thing. Secondly, we do try to provide, through our Pastor Center, ongoing education, ongoing resources. Uh, Chuck Lawless, who's just a great gift to the body of Christ, oversees- Know Chuck
Mike Glenn: well, yeah ...
Dr. Danny Akin: He's an incredible- Know Chuck well ... individual and a great mentor and discipler. And so he has the control of that, leadership of that, and I'm just amazed at the things they're doing in terms of providing resources, uh, providing things like [00:09:00] what we're doing today, uh, podcasts, Zooms, uh, providing conferences throughout the year, that, again, through some generosity we are able to keep at a very, very low cost and even sometimes cover the whole thing, uh, for people that come back for two or three days, uh, for additional training.
And I encourage the students when they graduate, uh, don't stop learning. Don't stop your education. You, you and I need to be lifelong learners until the day the Lord calls us home or returns, and that ought to be the mindset of a pastor. He doesn't stop learning when he graduates from seminary.
Mike Glenn: No. No, no.
And, and I think one of the things that happens is you know the feeling of sitting under one of your professors who breaks open a passage of scripture, and it changes your life and how excited you get about that passage. And, uh, and then you do that as a pastor for your people. Right. If we lose that kind of childlike excitement, uh, in our [00:10:00] preaching and in our teaching, uh, uh, I, I, I think it hurts the church.
Dr. Danny Akin: It does. And, and we all need to have our batteries recharged. Uh, we all are gonna get low in our tank from time to time, and that's when it's good... I, I, I'm grateful that more and more churches, uh, honor their pastors with, with sabbaticals. They're usually not year long, but they'll give their pastor a month- Six weeks, maybe two, three months, uh, as they've been there longer, to just take a time away, one, to catch their breath, but two, to continue their training, and they cover the cost for them.
We, we have it here at Southeastern a number of, uh, opportunities for men, both in academia but also pastors, to come onto our campus for anywhere from a month to six months and, uh, to just recharge their battery, go to classes, engage faculty, uh, see what God's doing in the churches. We're, we're really blessed at Southeastern with really good, strong [00:11:00] churches immediately in the vicinity of the seminary.
Well, what a great opportunity to go and visit those churches, see what they're doing, again, learn, uh, from their successes, how you might be able to translate that back to your own particular context. So again, I really applaud what you're saying here, Mike, about the need to have a plan for ongoing training, ongoing education, ongoing encouragement, really for the duration of your ministry.
That will go a long way in preventing burnout, which you and I both know has become a very, uh, great weapon of the enemy, uh, to use against pastors who just get discouraged and, and walk away when a word of encouragement, a hug around the neck, a breakfast or lunch meal could make all the difference in their continuing on in the calling that they received from the Lord years ago.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, I tell people all [00:12:00] the time, "Pastors don't explode. Uh, we implode." The pressure on the outside becomes greater than the pressure on the inside- Exactly ... because we don't take care of our spiritual life to f- continue that presence of Christ to be able to push back against the outward pressure. No, that's exactly correct, my brother.
Danny, when you look at the future, when you look at the next three to five years, uh, what, what are the things that excite you, and what are the things that concern you?
Dr. Danny Akin: Well, I'm excited because this younger generation is extremely passionate, uh, for our Lord. Uh, you know, you and I are baby boomers. Our generation didn't really set a good example.
Uh, we, we kinda bought into, uh, unfortunately, a church-like kinda mindset. Uh, they don't wanna have anything to do with that. That, they find that unbelievably distasteful and inauthentic, and I think they're right. So their passion to want to make a difference- Their desire to let their [00:13:00] life count for something is, is probably higher, uh, right now than at any time in my, uh, training of, of pastors and ministers, which I'm going now close to 35 years.
Um, the drawback is they want things instantly. They want things right now- Yeah ... because that's the world we now live in. Right. And so they sometimes lack staying power. Yeah. Uh, and they get discouraged too quickly when, uh... Timothy George, I know you know Timothy. I know Timothy well. Uh, wonderful, wonderful scholar, Christian brother.
We were having a conversation one day about some things that were going on at our convention. And I said, "Well, are you discouraged by these things?" And he said, "Oh, not at all." And I said, "Why not?" He said, "Well, I'm a historian, and I've been taught to take the long view on things." Right. "And in the long view of things, these things that are happening right now are just skirmishes."
Right. They're, they don't, [00:14:00] they don't measure up to what's gonna really shake and, uh, what's gonna shape, uh, the church. And so I think one of my, uh, assignments is to help younger, uh, followers of Christ try to have the long view. Mm-hmm. Don't let something that happens today throw you off. Keep the long view.
Look, look at Hebrews 12. God has not called us to run a sprint. Mm-hmm. He has called us to run a long distance race. We could use the analogy today, a marathon. Marathon. Your Christian life and your calling in ministry is to run a marathon. Well, a marathon is a long distance race, 26 miles and 385 yards.
And so what, uh, happens today, uh, is just one day in years- Mm-hmm ... of ministry service. So keep the long- And you don't get
Mike Glenn: a trophy for the first 100 yards.
Dr. Danny Akin: No, you do not. No, you do not. No, you do not. That's what I also remind
Mike Glenn: my young pastors. That's why Paul- You don't get a trophy for the... That's [00:15:00] right
Dr. Danny Akin: Paul in 2 Timothy 4, "I've run the race. I have finished. I've run my course. I finished the race. Now there's laid up for me." Get to the finish line. I... You know, you and I are older, uh, so I- I'm sure you're like me in this regard. I think more and more and more about the finish line and finishing well. And you know, it's one thing to run well for a lap or two, it's another thing to finish well.
And I try to help, again, even them that, these that are young. Look, using the analogy of a marathon, you're just done the first quarter of your race. Y- Most of your race is still out there in front of you. God does not applaud us for how fast we run or how high we jump. We get the applause of heaven for how long and faithfully we run, and that's something you do day by day by day.
So I'm excited about their passion- Uh, I'm concerned about the fact that if something doesn't work today, they're willing to move on too [00:16:00] quickly, when if they would just stay with it and see the hard times through. It's like in marriage. When you come to a bump in the road, you don't run away, you run at it, and before you realize it, you're through it, and you find the beauty and the joy and the happiness that's on the other side.
Mike Glenn: Right. I remind my young pastors all the time that there's a reason Jesus talked so much about agriculture. You know, you work the field and you wait. And you wait. You plant the seed, and you wait. And you wait. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Well, one of the things that- And days and days of work long before the harvest ever comes.
Dr. Danny Akin: Absolutely. But one of the things that God's used in my life to encourage me is reading missionary biographies. Right. And you know, William Carey, seven years before a single convert. Adoniram Judson, seven years before a single convert. Mm-hmm. James Fraser, five years before a single convert. Today, we'd be tempted to bring them home because they failed.
Oh, yeah. They did not fail. Look at all that God has done in [00:17:00] India and Miramar and China through the lives of these and many others, but they had a different perspective about the longevity and the patience. That's such a good word, Mike. Mm-hmm. The patience that's required to be a faithful minister.
Mike Glenn: Danny, I am very, very grateful for your time, uh, a- and your insight. You have a particular, uh, vantage point, uh, from, uh, from your office as president of Southeastern. Uh, what would you wanna be sure that the pastors of these local churches in Middle Tennessee heard or knew?
Dr. Danny Akin: Never forget the basic principle of life, that all that matters in life is that you please the Lord Jesus.
Yes, sir. You can't please everybody else, so don't try. Now, that doesn't mean we don't listen to people. There's wisdom in the counsel of many, so we should listen to other people and, uh, be open to criticism and critique. But when everything is said and done, we can't please everybody, so let's make sure we please Him [00:18:00] because He's the one that matters the most.
And if we do, I think it will give you that staying power to stay with it- Not get discouraged and drop out of the race, because as Hebrews again says, you've got your eyes fixed on Jesus, the author and finisher. He got us in the race. He keeps us in the race. He'll get us to the finish line.
Mike Glenn: Ah, what a great word to end this on.
Danny Akin, thank you for your time. You have been a very gracious and, uh, and, uh, encouraging guest today. So thank you very much for being part. Uh, this is the Engage Church Network. I'm Mike Glenn. Thanks for being with us, and we'll see you next time.
Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit [00:19:00] engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
