The Pastor in the Public Square | Coffee with Mike feat. Clay Stauffer
In this thought-provoking discussion, Mike Glenn sits down with Clay Stauffer, Pastor at Woodmont Christian Church in Nashville, TN. They tackle the complex challenges pastors face when addressing polarizing topics like gun safety, politics, and the intersection of religion in today's divisive climate. In the wake of the horrific Covenant School tragedy in March 2023, Clay opens up about the deeply personal experience of shepherding his congregation through unimaginable grief. Clay also shares his insights on how to lead a congregation through controversial issues with wisdom, empathy and compassion.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, my name is Mike Glenn, and I am the president of The Engaged Church Network, and we're glad that you have joined us on this podcast and this video blog and all of these other social media things that are part of our life now. Joining me today is my good friend Clay Stauffer. Clay has been pastor of, uh, the Woodmont Christian Church for 20...
Clay Stauffer: 17. Seven, sis- 17
Mike Glenn: years?
Clay Stauffer: 17 years.
Mike Glenn: Well, you came when you were 27, right?
Clay Stauffer: 27. That's
Mike Glenn: right. All right. So that's where I had the 20. All right. You've been pastoring there, uh, through all of the growth of Nashville and all of the changes and all of the c- of that kind of thing. The way I got to know you, Clay, was through your article in The Tennessean.
That was when I first started recognizing you. Mm-hmm. And then because I saw your name, I saw you in lots of different places and then began to recognize that in the Nashville community, uh, you are one of those Christian spokesmen that a [00:01:00] lot of, uh, media and other people go to to see if there's a particular slant on a particular issue, which, uh, sometimes puts you in the middle of it.
That is correct. So, uh, and, uh, and there are days I was envious of you, and there was days I thank God I didn't do what you had to do that day. Uh, but, uh, y- you, uh, you know, you and I have been friends a long time. I, I, I love, uh, I, I love, uh, y- your love for the local church, your love for your community, and we wanna talk about, uh, that in just a minute.
But let's talk about the pastor in the public forum and how you got into it, and what you have learned, both good and bad, from that process.
Clay Stauffer: Well, first of all, Mike, congratulations on your retirement and congratulations on your work to support churches- Oh, thank you ... and pastors. I'm glad to, glad to be a, a part of that, and, and for your friendship.
Um, yeah, so, so I have, uh, I've been at Woodmont 17 years, like you said, and I have always found [00:02:00] myself, uh, um, in, in the middle of a very busy, growing town and, and really in the middle of what we call a purple church. Right. Which means that we, we don't know exactly what the breakdown is between red and blue.
Mm-hmm. Maybe 60/40, maybe 55/45, but we know that we've got Republicans and Democrats, Liberals and Conservatives, and our goal is to hold everybody together in the love of Jesus Christ and create a place for them to have civil conversation, uh, on issues that matter.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And so w- the way that I've approached that is eyes wide open, understanding the risks that come with that-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Clay Stauffer: and also being very intentional that we are trying to create a community where people can talk and disagree, debate, and grow. Mm-hmm. And, and then when people come to our church, they know they're gonna find people that are like them and agree with them, but they're also gonna find people who don't agree with them.
Mm-hmm. And we've tried to, to really, uh, [00:03:00] intentionally build that type of church, uh, where people can, can have the conversations and address the issues that come up.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Because they're having these conversations. That's right. They're having them at work. They're having them at home. That's right. They're having them over Thanksgiving dinner.
That's right. But a lot of times, they are not informed conversations.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: So-
Clay Stauffer: So, and the three things that they say you're not supposed to talk about in polite company- Mm-hmm ... religion, politics, and money.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Um, my first book that I wrote was in 2016, called Preaching Politics, where I addressed all of those things- Right
'cause what I find is that's what people wanna talk about.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: But the way that you talk about is what matters.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Clay Stauffer: And, and the way you set that up is what, is what matters.
Mike Glenn: Was there a moment that, that you said, "I have to step into this process," or did it just kinda ease in, and all of a sudden you realized, "Okay, I'm here."
Clay Stauffer: Uh, you know, I, I guess the moment was back when I was in college, and, um, I was trying to decide between seminary, law school, and I had a professor who said, "Tell me the things you wanna do with your life." And [00:04:00] I said, "Well, I love to preach. I love to teach. I love to write. I love to counsel." And he said, "You can do all those in the church."
Yeah. And, and so I, I, I, the, the way to answer your question is, um, I believe that Karl Barth was right when he said we gotta approach every day with the Bible in one hand, the newspaper in the other- Mm-hmm ... and let's see what the Bible has to say about the issues that are facing our day and
Mike Glenn: age. Okay. Um, let's, uh, let's go back to probably one of the worst days of your life.
Uh, Woodmont, uh, Christian Church is right across the street, uh, from the Covenant School Down the street? Down the street just a little bit. Uh, and, and, and one day your phone rings and you're in the middle of the Covenant shooting Uh, that put you through, uh, through walking with the parents and all of that, that puts you in the limelight of issues like gun safety.
You held the, uh, conference with Senator Frist, uh, put, put, and, and, and the two of you put together a [00:05:00] proposal for us. Uh, so tell, tell us about how that, that germinated and ended up... Because this is Tennessee, everybody here has at least one shotgun, one pistol, you know, maybe, maybe more. Right. So-
Clay Stauffer: Right. So March 27th, 2023, uh, we're, you know, we're, we're right around the year anniversary.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: Sitting in my office in Green Hills, and all of a sudden police cars start racing by, followed by firetrucks, followed by ambulances, followed by more police cars, and I knew something bad had happened. Mm. But I didn't know what. Well, it didn't take long before we, the news broke- Mm ... that there was a, an active shooter at the Covenant School, which is just down the street.
And, um, and so sitting there, and then all of a sudden what you s- what you had were police cars, ambulances racing back the other way, ultimately going back to Vanderbilt Hospital. Um, I ended up spending the rest of that day at Woodmont Baptist Church- Mm ... which is our neighboring church- Mm ... which was the reunification place for the- Right
families and the kids. And [00:06:00]
Mike Glenn: the f-
Clay Stauffer: That's where
Mike Glenn: they sent the parents. That's
Clay Stauffer: exactly right. While
Mike Glenn: they tried to
Clay Stauffer: locate the kids. Of course, not everybody was reunited with their, with their loved one that day, as we know. Uh, there were, there were three children, um, s- who were killed, and there were three, uh, adults who, who were killed that day.
Um, that was surreal. It was a nightmare. Um, I was trying to help my friend Nathan Parker, pastor at- Right ... Woodmont Baptist, just, he had a lot on his plate, so I was trying to help as best I could with the police and all the other things- Mm ... and get these families reunited with their kids. And we also got news during that time that we had lost a nine-year-old girl in our church.
Uh, that o- that one of the children was Evelyn Dieckhaus, and um, and she did not, she did not make it. So, um, uh, another one of our ministers, uh, ended up going to Vanderbilt while I was still at Woodmont Baptist, and we ended up having her, her funeral was the first one that Friday. So that really put us, yeah, right into the middle of, uh, what was a, an awful situation, but a [00:07:00] situation that is far too common in our country.
Mm-hmm. And, um, and so Nashville was shocked, hurt, grieving. Mm-hmm. Um, these kids just went to school, and they didn't come home to their families. Um, and- Not only did they go to school, they went to a school to be away from that kind of violence.
Mike Glenn: That's right. And that kind, I mean, this was a-
Clay Stauffer: Yeah, this was a p- this was a, a private school- Private school
in the heart of Green Hills Yeah, mm-hmm ... and, and, um, and, and that, and that, and that's right. And, and ultimately they- They, they were, they ended up not being safe there. And Covenant's an amazing school.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And it could've happened at any school. Yeah. It wasn't, you know, it could've happened at any school.
But, but, but that ended up putting me in, into a place where I, I, I felt called to continue a conversation that I'd already had over many years. But it's, it's the fact that we have the Second Amendment, yes, but with the Second Amendment there comes responsibilities. Right, yeah. And the two are not mutually exclusive.
You can support the Second Amendment and also say there are some things that we could do that might make this better.
Mike Glenn: [00:08:00] Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And so specifically, uh, the three things that Safer Voices, uh, that Safer Voices Tennessee talks about are, uh, background checks and the importance of those and funding those.
Mm-hmm. There's a backlog of those in our state. Right. Um, temporary transfer laws from people that are mentally ill that don't have any business owning firearms. Um, and, and, and so in this case, the Covenant shooter, other cases, other people that just are in a mental state where they should not- Mm-hmm ... uh, have guns.
And then the third thing that we talk about is, is, uh, safe storage. And we really believe that by pushing those specific, uh, policies... And there, and, and there's bipartisan support for this. Mm-hmm. This is not something that's, like, on one side. Right. We believe that we can make a difference and hopefully limit what has become a major health crisis in our culture.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: And that is death by firearm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And, and a major impact on children and young adults. Without question. Uh, without that. So.
Clay Stauffer: Without question.
Mike Glenn: So you make that stand. That's not a popular stand in Tennessee. So let's talk [00:09:00] about the pros and cons of being in the public square as a pastor. Sure. So what happens when, when you get the personal attacks?
Sure. That, that where you say, "Hey, we need to think about this in a common sense way." And it might... You, you get- replies through the s- so social media and other ways, you know.
Clay Stauffer: Well, first of all, I, I confuse people when I tell them that I'm a gun owner.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: And, and I'm a gun owner that believes that those three things could make a big difference.
Uh-huh. Research data has proven it could make a big difference. And so, uh, to me, this is not an all or none deal. Right. This is us trying to be, to be safer. But absolutely, when you, when you bring up issues around the Second Amendment, people are very passionate about it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Um, I was very frustrated, honestly, after, uh, after, uh, Sandy Hook and Newtown that we didn't see some traction on that particular issue because, again, there was bipartisan support.
Um, and, and people... How many times can we watch this happen, where we just [00:10:00] say, "We're gonna just not do anything, and hope that it doesn't happen again," and then it happens again.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Um, but absolutely. When you, when you take a stand or, uh, become part of an organization like Safer Voices, you're gonna be attacked.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Uh, you're, you're gonna be targeted. People are gonna be frustrated. But you know what? At the same time, if you can do it respectfully and, uh, intelligently, people will respect you.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Clay Stauffer: They will, they will... They may not agree with you.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: They may not... They may say, "You know, I'm with you on this one point, but not so much on this."
Mm-hmm. But they respect you because they know where your heart is.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: They know that you're trying to make a difference. They know that you officiated a funeral for a nine-year-old that was killed at school. Right. Um, and so I, I do find that even if they don't agree with you, they respect you. Okay. And, and part of, part of m- my desire is that I just want people to have the conversation.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Um, and I don't want anybody to feel like they're being judged or casted out because they feel a certain way. I just wanna engage people in the [00:11:00] conversation. And yeah, part of what Senator Frist, who was a Republican Senate Majority Leader- Right ... uh, helped, has helped me realize, along with, uh, Alex Jahanger, he did that event with us at Woodmont, trauma surgeon at Vanderbilt, is that this has become a public health crisis.
Right. And, and, and the data is really overwhelming, and so we can't ignore that. We have to acknowledge that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And so, uh, Senator Frist, who's a friend of mine, a- has, has helped me see that we have to approach it as a public health crisis, and not just as a partisan wedge issue-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Clay Stauffer: which is how it so often
Mike Glenn: is viewed.
Okay. So how did you carry that into the pulpit? And what happens in the pulpit when you're taking that kind of public stand?
Clay Stauffer: Well, I think you have to be very careful in the pulpit, um, i- in terms of when it comes to, especially when it comes to partisan politics. Right. As you know, ministers cannot endorse candidates, uh, on behalf of their churches.
The tax-exempt status of churches prohibits us [00:12:00] from doing that. But even when it comes to those issues, I think the way that you approach it in the pulpit is you ask the question, we continue to see these school shootings and mass shootings in our country, what could we do to make this better? Mm-hmm. And, uh, the conversation around the Second Amendment and, and, uh, gun safety is one answer, and somebody else say, "And let's also have the conversation around mental illness."
Mm-hmm. A- and so you facilitate both of those, and you make sure that when you talk about it from the pulpit, you are not telling people this is the only way to view th- this issue. Right. Even if they understand it's the way you view it- Mm-hmm ... you have to create space for other people to have
Mike Glenn: a different, uh, view.
Sanctuary in the best sense of that word. That's right. And that here's a safe place to, to unpack this.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. And, and, and part of what I try to do, uh, have done over the years, is I've just acknowledged that I, in, in the digital age, which will help get this video out- ... and, and, and, um, and we'll, you know, we'll, we'll, we use it all the time- Right
social media. [00:13:00] In the digital age, that has strengthened polarization because of algorithms- Mm-hmm ... because, uh, people tend to get feeds, uh, of news that is-
Mike Glenn: Are pulled for them and they're... Yeah. Yeah, that's
Clay Stauffer: right. It, the, the, it has only strengthened polarization, and what we need to do, uh, is, is, is, is foster dialogue.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And, and I, if people in the church that are bound by the love of Christ and their love for each other, if they, if they can't, uh, embody that or at least try-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ... then
Clay Stauffer: I, I don't, I don't know- Any
Mike Glenn: way you
Clay Stauffer: can do it ... where you can do it. I really don't.
Mike Glenn: I really- So, uh, a young pastor is, uh- Uh, at, at a county seat church somewhere, uh, in middle Tennessee is thinking about taking this step into the public square.
What, uh, encouragements and what warnings would you have for it?
Clay Stauffer: Well, the first thing I would say is, um, people don't care what you know till they know that you care. Yeah. So your first responsibility as a pastor is to love your people and form a relationship with them. [00:14:00]
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Um, uh, so I think the first and foremost, you have to have a pastoral connection before you can ever do- Exactly
a thing like this. Yeah. Um, and then the second thing that I would say is you need to be, you need to tread very carefully, but make sure that you set it up in a way where you let it be known that multiple positions are absolutely known and accepted and, um, and have a welcome space for dialogue.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Because that's one thing that we have not done as Christians, is Christians have actually been a part of the problem. Right. Uh, on both the r- the right and the left. Mm-hmm. That we have said, to be a part of our church or our community- Mm-hmm ... you need to believe this, this, and this. And, and, and then we're intolerant of people that don't agree on those two things.
So the question- Right.
Mike Glenn: Almost made it a test of the faith.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And, and, and what you see, as you know, 'cause you're a long-term seasoned pastor, is you end up with, with red churches- Sure ... in, you [00:15:00] know, in, in, in, in, in rural areas or suburbs, and you end up with the much smaller blue churches.
And people are picking their churches based on politics, and that's not a good thing. No. Um- No ... and so that's the problem that we're facing. The polarization has actually bled over into the pew. Mm-hmm. And that's not, and that's not good. So my advice to the, to the rural pastor is first establish a connection, make sure your people know that you love them.
And I don't even know if doing it from the pulpit is the best move initially. Right. I think these conversations need to be had in small groups and Sunday school classes where people can look each other in the eye, give feedback- Right ... not just from one-
Mike Glenn: But one of the things that give social media its, its permission to be so nasty is it's anonymous.
That's right. And that we're not talking like this.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: And, um ... And people, I think, will,
Clay Stauffer: will, will, will type things on a screen- Right ... they would never- Ever say in public ... say to somebody's face. Right. At least I'd hope they wouldn't. May- maybe now they do. But, but they will type things- Yeah
because it's anonymous and because they can just put it out there. Mm-hmm. And then it seems like the most [00:16:00] outrageous thing that's posted gets the, gets- Right. Yeah ... feedback. Right, yeah. And that, and that's, and that's not healthy.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Well, Clay, I wanna encourage you in your work and your ministry. I'm glad that, uh, in the Nashville community that you're one of the voices for the, for the Christian church and, uh, and I'm always eager to see when I see your name in the byline.
This is Clay Stauffer. He's the pastor of Woodmont Christian Church, and you've been part of Coffee With Mike. Thanks, and we'll see you next time.
