Alcoholics Anonymous and the Church
What can the church learn from Alcoholics Anonymous, and how can we join the conversation? In this episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with a longtime member of AA to explore the deep connection between faith, recovery, and community.
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Anonymous: As much as I care for you, as much as I love you, if I'm drinking and you're talking to me ab- about God and all the things that can help me, if you ain't been a drunk- I'm, you're not listening ... you're not hearing me. There's
Mike Glenn: some things I can't do because that's not part of my life. Yep. Yeah.
You and I have been friends for 25 years now or so. With that, we have a running argument, debate, discussion, uh, comparing AA and the church. Alcoholics Anonymous. Uh, that has been part of your life for 35 years. 38. 38 years, something like that. Uh, I came to it a different way. I came to it through the [00:01:00] writings of Samuel Shoemaker, the, the, the priest, uh, New York priest who was, uh, and pastor who was part of Bill W.'s putting AA together.
Uh, and got to know the church side of that. One of the arguments you and I have is, or, or discussions is how much better AA does church than church. AA was born in the church, born from the church. Yep. But now does church better than the church does. And
Anonymous: I will go with, um, the fact that there- certain circumstances, AA is such a respecter of the tradition from which it came.
Right. And of course it is, has respect for all the world's religions, 'cause we're a wor- worldwide organization now. Um, but AA does seem to work in some cases where church has either n- not been what the person needed, or in some cases spit the person out. [00:02:00] Um, and there are a couple of things that I think really, uh, separate us.
Number one, we fuzz up the God concept quite a bit.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Anonymous: Once you go into a Christian denomination, there are certain, uh, points of faith that you're required to keep. AA has none of that. We, um- God, as you see Him, God is...
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Anonymous: Um, uh, Shoemaker was, uh, or the, uh, the Oxford Group was non-denominational.
Right. Um, we just took it all the way. We ask that- you come up with a higher power, that you live for something bigger than yourself. But we don't care if that is the God of the tradition you were brought up with, or if it's just sort of metaphorical, or the ideals that you want to live by. We want, um, we know that an alcoholic gets into trouble.
We always say we earned this seat. My best thinking [00:03:00] got me a seat in Alcoholics Anonymous. So I may as well swap that out for something else. Um, and I, I think there are two things that really do it. Uh, number one, um, th- that f- fuzzed up God concept lets me, as someone who is, shall we say, between denominations, um, be comfortable with the God concept.
Mm-hmm. When people... I mean, if you put 100 Baptists in a room and someone says the word God, everyone's translating in their heads. Right, right. No one would get all the points of doctrine the same. And the other thing is, we don't have preachers or psychiatrists or physicians or professors. We have drunks.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Anonymous: We have... Y- you get comfortable with somebody else whose story you can relate to, and you work with them. It's one drunk talking to another, and I think those two things really help us step in where sometimes the church can't. Okay. Can't, won't, didn't? There... [00:04:00] We hear it all. Mm-hmm. Um, there are places where someone simply at some point, um, uh, I don't think anybody would like this word, but outgrew the faith of their forebearers.
Happens all, happens all the
Mike Glenn: time. Yeah. Happens all the time.
Anonymous: And there are places where people with real problems are treated shabbily in a lot of church settings, unfortunately. Um, and if you come into a ... If... I remember people, I mean, puking in the parking lot, um, you know, taking a leak where they shouldn't take a leak- Mm-hmm
whatever. We've all been there. I'm not gonna, you know, judge you, throw you out for being what we are if you wanna get well. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And- For being on that s- that part of your journey. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I remember when I was throwing up in the parking lot. That's part of the journey- Mm-hmm ... uh, that, that, that gets you here.
Too many people in the church, and you, you and I know this, we, we, we [00:05:00] expect you to be full grown and have it all together when you get in.
Anonymous: And there are some, my first, my first AA sponsor used to say, "Don't bring them to me p- puking and soiling themselves the first couple weeks. Get them cleaned up enough-
that I can talk to them. They can form full sentences, and then I'll sponsor them." So treatment centers do- Right ... a lot of what we used to do by going into hospitals- Right ... and things. And I've done 12-step calls in hospitals- Mm-hmm ... in hotel rooms. Well, you did one the other day. I, I... And that was in- That was in a, a, a business office.
Yeah. And it was simply... And a 12-step call, for the pilgrims out there, is simply where someone who wants to get sober sits down with someone who's been sober, and that person just lays out, "Here's what we do. Do you think you're ready to do this?" Here's... A 12-step call is about presenting the program to somebody, and it's, you know, a pitch any good churchman will do if somebody's interested.
They'll talk about Jesus, talk about the denomination, whatever. And, um, and yeah, you [00:06:00] saw me doing it. Simply a matter of, "Here's where, um, uh, the program may be of use to you. Do you think you're ready to do that?" And so, you know, sometimes it's sweetness and light, and sometimes it's, you know, "Look." Yeah. The finger in the chest, "Are you really ready to do this?"
Yeah. 'Cause it's a big deal. Yeah. You have to give up a lot.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, and I saw a little of both from you in that, in that meeting where, uh, where, where you confronted our friend, uh, with that. Uh, what is it that you wish churches understood?
Anonymous: That Alcoholics Anonymous can be a great ally. W- w- we take people who, um, and again, some people come in still f- full in their faith, um, full in the denomination, full in the...
And, and, and I'm talking, um, Hindus, Buddhists, everybody. We've, we've got it all. And then people who it just doesn't work for them the way, in some cases, psychiatry hasn't worked for them. And, um, w- what I wish churches would know [00:07:00] is that we can be an ally. We send a lot of people back. Mm. People grow spiritually, and they get to know God in a way that's more familiar to the churches and want to go back, um, those who haven't been there.
And so, it, it, we offer information, speakers, pamphlets to, say, pastors who kind of are standoffish about AA, because it is outside of what they're used to. But we love working with... We send people to schools, to prisons, to hospitals, to wherever, and we would love that conversation with any pastor who's doubtful about what we do and whether or not it can feed back into what they do.
We don't want anybody scared of us. We are people who came out of the church. We did the things that we saw were working with. And it's like, [00:08:00] you know, this, um, anonymity thing. Right. Early on, there were people who would go around saying, "I'm in AA. AA really works. I'm sober now." And two weeks later, they're drunk.
Right. That makes it look like, um, just the way so many Christians have made Christianity look bad by talking the talk and then falling down. Right. And, you know, we, we would love to be allies with any church group. Mm-hmm. What's the secret to AA? Drunk on drunk That's basically it. Mm-hmm. I, as much as I care for you, as much as I love you, if I'm drinking and you're talking to me ab- about God and all the things that can help me, if you ain't been a drunk- I'm, you're not listening
uh, you're not hearing me. There's
Mike Glenn: some things I can't do because that's not part of my life. Yep.
Anonymous: Yeah. And so- Yeah ... but for me to sit down with a room full of people who laugh when I think they're gonna be horrified that I threw up- ... at a party with friends and relatives- Yeah, yeah ... [00:09:00] they've all, or, you know, half of them have done it.
Or slept in a flower bed or something like that, yeah. You betcha. Yeah. Um, and, you know, we wreck marriages, we wreck cars. We're, um, w- we're not there for polite society, and Alcoholics Anonymous d- early on took what is best about, um, the Oxford Group, which took what was great about Christianity and broadened it a little bit, and we wanna broaden it so that any alcoholic, anybody who gets to the point, think, "This just isn't working for me," can come and we can talk to them about what we did.
We don't, um, you know, we don't cure everybody. Churches, psychiatrists, all those things I mentioned do great work, and a lot of people get sober through them. Um, but it's drunk on drunk, and that is the magic difference. Bill Wilson sat down with Dr. Bob Smith in Akron, Ohio, and told him what he'd been through.
They both knew the Oxford Group. And the trick was that Bill Wilson did not seek out Dr. Bob to get Dr. Bob sober. [00:10:00] Bill Wilson sought out Dr. Bob to keep Bill Wilson sober. That's right, yeah. And when I shared with that fellow the other day- Right ... when I share with anybody, that's about keeping me sober- Yeah
'cause I hear it.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, that was one of the, the things I wrote down after that meeting was, uh, our, our friend was very appreciative of your time, uh, a- as I am and, and, and was, and your comment was, "I've been sober for these last 45 minutes because I was talking to you." Mm-hmm.
Anonymous: And the reason it still rings with me was because it was life and death.
I've been in the back of a squad car. I've been in a hospital because of my drinking. Um, I've ruined relationships, and that 45 minutes of just sharing what I've been through, did, you know, I... There's no fees involved. There's, I don't want anything back from him except the chance to share something that saved my hide.
Mm-hmm. And I think some people, [00:11:00] um, in churches, you can kinda lose the edge of it sometimes because the problems aren't as severe always. Um, with, with a drunk in an AA meeting, you're talking to somebody who got there because he was scared for his or her life. Right,
Mike Glenn: yeah. And one of the things that, that I, that I wish the church did better, uh- There, there's no place in the church, and, and, and, and I'm speaking with a huge brush here 'cause we know of, of groups and all this that are doing this well.
There's no place where somebody can come in and say, "Here's where I am, and this is what I'm dealing with, and it's ugly." You know, "I've, I've... I'm thinking about le- leaving my wife. I have just left my wife." You know, "I've got a kid who hadn't spoken to me in 15 years." There's no place where you can come, uh, and, and, and, and say that out loud so if somebody else can say, "I've been there," and, and find that, that connection, where in AA, it's drunk on [00:12:00] drunk.
In a church, it's sinner with sinner, uh, or should be. But because we have this facade of I've got it all together and, and, uh, and we come to church to prove that we have it all together, we miss those key moments o- of transformation. An AA meeting is an
Anonymous: admitted group of broken people wanting and having a plan for getting and staying well.
And there... Some of the literature I've seen, some of the things you're working on, there are churches closing in lots of places. There are 900 meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous every week in the greater Nashville area, in, in middle Tennessee. W- A- A- And church basements, office buildings, you name it, and w- we, um, uh, we aren't lonely.
There are people in trouble out there, you know, whatever the state of society
Mike Glenn: is. Yeah. Um- Well, what I was telling a friend earlier today, [00:13:00] I said the interesting thing about, uh, if you wanted spiritual help, you couldn't get in most churches because now most churches are secured. Mm. Uh, security, locks, da, da, da, da, da.
If you don't have an appointment, it's hard to get in, period. Uh, while there are, wherever you are in the middle Tennessee area, there is a meeting in the next hour that, that you can get to, and there's an app that shows you where those meetings are. And
Anonymous: you can, and you can come in, and you can cry, and you can say, "My life is- Yeah
over," and, um, w- we'll, w- w- we'll talk you through what we've been through and say, "Here are the simple 12 steps that- Right ... we use. Here is the entire theology- Mm-hmm ... of, uh- Yeah ... AA. It's a practical program of action. If you will do these things, you will make an opening by getting rid of the worst parts of yourself for God- Mm-hmm
as you understand God. And, [00:14:00] um, uh, you get to sort out what that is. But God will enter your life. I mean, we are about a relationship with whatever it is that runs the universe, and what most people know as God, but we're not gonna tell you what that is. Right. And you will feel that God thing in a meeting.
Mm-hmm. It just, you, it's almost impossible, if you're an alcoholic, to walk out of an AA meeting not feeling good. Yeah. No matter what your situation- A- a- as we would say,
Mike Glenn: the Spirit comes.
Anonymous: Yeah. Yeah. The Spirit comes. And I, I will say that, uh, uh, in terms of borrowed terms, when I speak with, um, a rookie, um, I feel the Spirit moving through me.
I don't think about what I'm gonna say. Right. The Spirit does the talking. I understand that, that Christian concept because- Mm-hmm ... it's there. Um, we, we are changed to the point where we can be useful to others. And of course, not everybody is. When you pick a sponsor, you look for [00:15:00] w- somebody you can relate to, but sometimes you look for the meanest old guy in the corner-
who you know is gonna kick your butt, 'cause I told the fella we were talking to the other day- Yeah ... "I got a pretty good BS detector." Yeah. "I've seen it all- Yeah ... and heard it all." That's right. "And you ain't gonna- You're babto- stuff. Yeah. Babto stuff. Exactly. You're not gonna run much by me that's, uh, you know, gonna throw
Mike Glenn: me off.
Yeah. The other thing about AA is there's 12 steps. Hmm. Okay? Here's the process. Uh, every member of AA knows those 12 steps, and if they're working the program, they can tell you what step they're on. Mm-hmm. And, and tell you how this is, "I'm, I'm working back through the fifth step. I'm working back through the eighth step."
Um, we do not have that kind of catechism for discipleship. Uh, most of us are left kinda wandering. How important are the 12 steps?
Anonymous: That's w- I mean, that, the program is the 12 steps. If you [00:16:00] have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length, you're ready to take certain steps. That's the program we offer.
Admit that it ain't working. Believe that these people have found something that works for them that's tied to God. Give your life to that process as best you can. Write down everything that... Do the full life Catholic confession. Yeah. The full monty. Everything. Everything you've done, everything done to you.
Right. We're gonna go through that with another human being. Mm-hmm. You're gonna talk it through, and we're gonna see what we can patch up, up through step nine. Becau-
Mike Glenn: be- because in my reading, if you do that by yourself, it'll put you in a hole you can't get out of If you do the whole confession but don't, but don't have another p- part of it is- Oh
is to hold you accountable, but the other part of it is, is to keep you from slipping down the abyss. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Th-
Anonymous: yeah. We have to [00:17:00] warn people that your life inventory is not all done in red ink. We don't want you to feel so bad about yourself- Right ... that you go back to drinking or kill yourself.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Anonymous: And, um, um, and so you have somebody walk through. You find somebody early on that you trust, that you wanna work with. And if that doesn't work out, you fire them and get somebody else. Mm-hmm. Until you're comfortable with somebody. And then by step nine, you are going back to everybody you can, where it's not gonna cause more trouble.
You're apologizing, you're paying them back, you're paying the bill- Right ... repairing the fence, whatever it is. And then 10, 11, and 12 are just about repeat that process and pass it on to somebody. Mm-hmm. That's the whole ball
Mike Glenn: of wax. Now, you, you let something slip the other day that, that I found fascinating.
You said every morning you begin with your gratitude list and a list of things you're working on? W- mine is more when I get up in the morning. My- But, but my, my point is there's a ritual to your day. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. W- w- when you get up in the morning [00:18:00] and, and when you go to, uh, go to bed at night. Yep.
Anonymous: I ask for the removal of the desire to drink, and then I add, you know, smoke and all my other leaks.
Greed, lust, all the, all that stuff. And at the end of the day, I say, "Thanks." And to me, when St. Paul says, "Prayed ceaselessly," I could never figure out what they- Right ... was trying to say. But if I will do those two things, start my day with prayer, with whatever runs the universe that indwells in me, and close it with appreciation and see how I did, that's the quotation marks, the day is the prayer.
Ah.
Mike Glenn: Ah, let me wr- let me write that down. I think, think I may preach that. You steal song titles from me. I'm gonna steal sermon stuff from you. Any ti- Okay? You got a deal. You got a deal. I wanna thank my friend Ron for joining us today, and I hope you are encouraged and are aware of what an asset AA can be to your local church's ministry.
I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engage Church Network podcast. Thanks for being with [00:19:00] us.
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