Dave Ramsey Talks Money and Ministry
In this episode of the Engage Church Network podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with financial expert and longtime friend Dave Ramsey for a candid conversation about pastors, money, and Biblical stewardship. Together, they explore why so many pastors struggle with personal finances, how shame keeps leaders from addressing money in the pulpit, and why churches must approach the topic through the lens of Scripture rather than fear or cultural pressure.
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Dave Ramsey: And what we find is, is that, uh, most pastors, it's not, not all, but most pastors, um, are human and they, um, are not great with money.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And, uh, so the
Mike Glenn: pastors themselves can't manage your
Dave Ramsey: money? Yeah. Their personal finances Okay. Uh, are not great, but that's just means they're a person in America.
Mm-hmm. Right. That doesn't mean they're better or worse, it just means they're a human being. And so, but they don't feel. Uh, they, they feel like a hypocrite to tell somebody else how to do it if they're not doing it right or they feel a little bit of shame, uh, on that. Uh, and so that's one thing that keeps 'em from talking about money outta the pulpit.
And the second thing is, what you said is they don't wanna be, uh. Put in the category right. Of somebody that's just the church is here to take
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Rather than the church is here to bless. Mm-hmm. And, and to be a, a giver. And, and so they don't wanna be a parasite, they don't wanna have the reput, all that church wants is your money.
Right. They don't want that to be said about [00:01:00] them. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: When we first started the Engaged Church Network, we thought we were gonna be working with pastors and churches. We thought we were gonna be starting new churches to respond to all of the people who were moving into Tennessee. I don't know if you know this, but Tennessee is the third largest, fastest growing area in all the United States.
That means one, a lot of people are moving into Tennessee. Two, a lot of different kinds of people are moving into Tennessee. Not only do we need more churches, we need different kinds of churches. We don't have enough pastors for all of these churches. In fact, we don't have enough pastors for the churches we have now.
This is past a point of concern. This is now a crisis. How do we get men and women who are called, who are gifted by God into serving the local church? That's when we started the school of Ministry. If you're sitting in your local church and you're thinking, [00:02:00] maybe I could do something in a local church. I know you've got a full-time job, you got family, and it's not realistic for you to move to another part of the nation and go through three years of seminary training.
That's why we started the ECN School of Ministry. We'd love to have a conversation with you. That's EEC n school of ministry.com. We look forward to hearing from you.
I was trying to figure out, uh, talking to a couple of friends around here the other day trying to figure out, uh, how long you and I had been friends and it's been over 30 years. Just about 30 years or so.
Dave Ramsey: It's gotta be,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Gotta be easy. Uh, from the time that we met over at Christ [00:03:00] Church. Yeah. For the, for the Marriage Congress.
Now, at that time you were, uh, uh, you were on a broke radio station, 99 7 was in bankruptcy.
Dave Ramsey: Yep.
Mike Glenn: And you had an hour in the middle of the day and were staring up everything else we did. And, uh, get outta debt. Uh, put your, handle your money in an envelope. All of those great Ramsey things. And, uh, and I, I was telling somebody the other day, I remember seeing all of the cars, uh, what was it?
Dave's car,
Dave Ramsey: uh, money game
Mike Glenn: Car. My money game, car
Dave Ramsey: money game.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: Still got one of those stickers on the back of one of the tris we had and the grand, the grandkids ride around the driveway. It's pretty funny. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But the car was, it meant somebody had bought a used car and it was paid for.
Dave Ramsey: It meant that the person inside was listening.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. To somebody to, that's right.
Dave Ramsey: The show in those days was called The Money Game.
Mike Glenn: Money Game. Yeah. And, uh, now we have Ramsey Inc. Uh, and uh, and all, all that you're into now. So [00:04:00] it's been real fun. And you and I have talked about this before. How, how. The privilege of walking alongside of you as, as all this has unfolded and you have become America's money guru, uh, the practical side of how people handle their money, as opposed to all the people talking about the stock market and everything.
You're going, Hey, get an envelope, budget your stuff this way, and that kind of stuff. Now pastors are in a mess in that we have to talk about money. We're not any good at talking about money.
Dave Ramsey: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: Most of the time we feel mixed about talking to, because so many talk about it badly. We don't want to have anything to do with the, the sters mm-hmm.
Who are hustling God's people. And we, we know who, uh, about that style of ministry. What is it that you wish pastors or church leaders would understand about people and their money, and how best do we talk about it?
Dave Ramsey: Well, I've had the honor of calling, uh. A lot of [00:05:00] America's great pastors. Mm-hmm. Personal friends over the years, uh, you included.
And it started with you and, um, and others like you here in the Nashville area. Right. Um, but these days when we look back, we know that now over 50,000 churches have taught financial peace universities. So we've had a lot of interaction with pastors and you, you know, we did a pastor's. Conference for some of the top pastors.
Mm-hmm. The super large churches that you used to come to. Uh, we used to do those, uh, stewardship summits. We called them, uh, did 'em for several years and they were a lot of fun. But it was just a handful of people, just 50 people. But still, the point being, I've, I've interacted with a bazillion pastors over the years on this exact subject, and what we find is, is that, uh, most pastors, it's not, not all, but most pastors, um, are human.
And they, um, are not great with money.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And, uh, so the
Mike Glenn: pastors themselves can't manage your
Dave Ramsey: money? Yeah. Their personal finances Okay. Uh, are not great, [00:06:00] but that just means they're a person in America. Mm-hmm. Right. That doesn't mean they're better or worse, it just means they're human being. And so, but they don't feel.
Uh, they, they feel like a hypocrite to tell somebody else how to do it if they're not doing it right or they feel a little bit of shame, uh, on that. Uh, and so that's one thing that keeps 'em from talking about money outta the pulpit. And the second thing is, what you said is they don't wanna be, uh. Put in the category right.
Of somebody that's just the church is here to take
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Rather than the church is here to bless.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And, and to be a, a giver. And, and so they don't wanna be a parasite, they don't wanna have the reput, all that church wants is your money. Right. They don't want that to be said about them. Yeah. And so, to shy away from those two things, uh, because of the shame or the, uh, I, I don't feel confident or competent.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and I certainly don't want to appear to be. You know, uh, gantry and, and so, um. You know, too many [00:07:00] of 'em abandon it. And then, but our friend Craig Rochelle has one of the best sayings on this I've ever heard. He said, why is it that wealth is the only blessing from God we feel like we need to apologize for, we don't apologize to about God giving us health.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Uh, he's blessed me with great children.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: He's blessed me with great grandchildren like you and me.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dave Ramsey: Uh, he's blessed me with a business he's blessed me with. Uh, longevity. He's blessed me with whatever. Mm-hmm. But, but we don't, we don't think anything at all about thanking God for that publicly and loudly.
Right. But when it comes to, you know, he's blessed me financially, it's like, oh, he's, we have to, we have to.
Mike Glenn: I'm getting by.
Dave Ramsey: I have to, I don't have to tie out, have to drive a used Camry, because that's, that's the holy car of the Evangelical,
Mike Glenn: so. So how then do we talk about money?
Dave Ramsey: I think we talk about it, um, through the lens of scripture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Um, you know,
Mike Glenn: [00:08:00] imagine that.
Dave Ramsey: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I was, I was talk, talking to our team the other day, I always do a thing when our team's been with us for 90 days, we call it wrap with Dave. At the end of the day, it's the wrap up of their onboarding.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And they get to ask questions. And I tell old stories about the old days and I was talking about, uh, of all the books I've written and all the books we've sold. Uh, all of them. We did the thing first and then we wrote it,
Mike Glenn: right?
Dave Ramsey: So I did the baby steps. Um, I did, you know, I, I run a business, so I wrote entree leadership mm-hmm.
On how to run a business, on and on and on. Smart money, smart kids. I had raised kids that turned out money wise and everything else, not perfect, but they turned out. So we wrote a book about that. Here's how you raise kids. So the one exception of that was the first one. I'm bankrupt sitting on a card table in my living room and nobody gives a rip.
Yeah. Who Dave Ramsey is. Yeah. And if they did know who he was, they wouldn't want his opinion. Mm-hmm. 'cause he is a bankrupt guy. Mm-hmm. Who wants to take financial [00:09:00] advice from a bankrupt guy. That's kind of dumb. And so, but I just had this, uh, burden. I'm supposed to write a book and I didn't know whether I was writing it for.
The catharsis to overcome having gone broke. The healing from that or what I, whether I was writing it because God was calling me to, I wasn't sure, but I was just pouring it out. Mm-hmm. And I'm not a writer, so it was really hard for me. So that book, I didn't have the ability to lean on anything for credibility 'cause there was none.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dave Ramsey: All I, I didn't even have social proof. I didn't have, we haven't, hadn't been in the marketplace and proved it right. I mean, if you, if you wanna argue with us today, that's just dumb. Mm-hmm. 'cause we've got millions of proof text. Right. So, I mean, we, you're just wrong. You know? I mean, it's just that, but back then it was like, well, I don't know.
I mean, who wants to listen? So we were leaning on scripture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And so I said, okay, this is what God says. This is what your grandma said.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: So common sense and scripture.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: I remember to
be
Dave Ramsey: the
Mike Glenn: same thing. Radio used to quote a lot of proverbs.
Dave Ramsey: Still do. Yeah. [00:10:00] Yeah, still do. And 'cause I mean, if you read Proverbs over and over and over again, there's 31 we all know you can do one a day, have a little spiritual one a day vitamin.
Mm-hmm. Uh, if you read it over and over again, you get a master's degree in finance if you actually understand it. Mm-hmm. It's all in there. It's amazing book of instruction and wisdom. Mm-hmm. We, and, and any of us know scripture know that about Proverbs, um, very, very, uh, prescriptive and, uh, instructional.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And so it's do this, don't do that. Uh, very, which guys like me need. I need a just. That don't, this is dumb, this is smart. Right. The fool does this, the wise does this. Mm-hmm. I really need that. Mm-hmm. And I go, I'm going to opt for the wise column. 'cause the fool column leaves pain in my life. So I'm, I'm not gonna do that.
So, but that, that's what we started doing. We, we leaned in on long story, but we leaned in on and said, okay, the authority here is God.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And so you can argue. With me, and you very well could be. Right? [00:11:00] Right. But if you wanna argue with God, well that's probably dumb.
Mike Glenn: Right?
Dave Ramsey: And so when he says that the rituals over the poor and the borrower is slave to the lender, we ought to think about the implications of slavery and to the modern day society.
What does that look like? It means you've had your choices taken away,
Mike Glenn: right?
Dave Ramsey: Had your options taken away.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Um. Don't never met a generous slave.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Your money is spent before it cuts to you.
Dave Ramsey: Yeah. I mean there's the, the what happens to the slave spirit?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: What happens to their relationships?
What happens? I mean, so it's not just simply mathematically, I don't have any money 'cause I gave it all the bank. Right. And payments, which is the first level of understanding probably, but. As you get further down into it, the socioeconomic impacts of, of slavery, whether it's a modern day version or an actual
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Slavery. Um, I mean, we don't wanna compare it to human trafficking. That's not fair. But, um, I mean, it's very instructional.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: When you start looking at it and you go, okay, and so argue with [00:12:00] that and a culture completely obsessed with borrowing money.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Told. Told, we're not wise if we're not using other people's money
Dave Ramsey: or Oh, yeah.
Yeah. You're just, you're just really unsophisticated. Right. Don't understand. You're just one of those guys. Yeah, and I've got all the degrees and the letters and licenses after my name that says I'm supposed to know something about money, but I was seeing they're bankrupt when I wrote this book, so apparently some of that was wrong, you know?
But, and so I'm gonna decide which source of information is gonna be my plumb line. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be my compass. And is it gonna be my broke finance professor? And think about that one broke finance professor that's like a shop teacher with missing fingers. Yeah. So, or, or, or is it gonna be the great I am right.
The Alpha and the Omega. Right. And, uh, is it gonna be the, the lover of my soul?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: My Heavenly father. Whose sent his only son to die for my sins. [00:13:00] Where am I gonna line up on who's instructing me? Yeah, that's right. To me, it became a no-brainer at that point in my life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. That's interesting that you tied your financial freedom to the gospel itself.
Dave Ramsey: Well, it is. Yeah. I mean, because you, you just have to stop. And again, we're, we're what's informing the, um. The information that you're using mm-hmm. Where, what's the source? And is the source trustworthy worthy of trust? Mm-hmm. And can I lean on that or am I gonna fall over when I lean on it?
Right.
Dave Ramsey: And so, um, and again, I had gone broke using the OPM method, the other people, other people's money method.
Right. The power of leverage. I can teach you the math on all that, but I also, but,
Mike Glenn: but in the end it doesn't. That
Dave Ramsey: also had a house of cards sitting in my lap,
Mike Glenn: you know?
Dave Ramsey: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Lemme take a risk of embarrassing you a little bit. Few people understand how generous you are and how generous your family is. And, uh, and, and those of us who have the privilege of, of, of [00:14:00] being part of your life, know of situations where you have, talk to me about how, how you learned generosity and, and what goes through, uh, Dave's mind when you're deciding how to be generous and when generosity hurts.
Dave Ramsey: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, those kind of things. You and I know of situations where if you put more money into it, it's actually gonna backfire.
Dave Ramsey: Right. Right. That's just enabling.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Right.
Dave Ramsey: And we don't wanna do that. Um, mean you throw money in a broken system, it doesn't fix it.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Dave Ramsey: It makes it bigger.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Yes.
And
Dave Ramsey: so. You know, when we're with the Ramsey Family Foundation, when we're selecting a ministry that we're going to give to, we don't want to be a harm to them. Mm-hmm. And sometimes throwing money on something that's not working well is a harm is harmful. Right. Instead of helping them align with some kind of business acumen or some kind of truth that they need to get some systems or processes fixed, sometimes we can go in and do that, [00:15:00] and that's a better gift than a cash gift.
Um, other times just. We just can't be involved. Mm-hmm. Because it's not a good use of God's money and 'cause we're not really blessing his children. We're really. We're giving the keys to a brand new Corvette to a 14-year-old who hasn't had driving lessons. Right. They're gonna kill somebody. Mm-hmm. And themselves.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dave Ramsey: And that's not a blessing, although you'd get real excited if you're 14 and you got a new Corvette. Right. But that, that's, that's enabling. And um, we wanna be real careful not to do that. Um, and sometimes we get accused of, um. Being judgemental by that, but it's, yeah, I guess I am. Yeah, I, I, the scripture calls me for me to judge and it calls for me to be a good manager, a good steward.
Mm-hmm. And so, um, but as far as generosity goes. Uh, once I shifted the ownership of my stuff, which happened when we went broke, I met God as a, as a baby Christian. Right. I didn't hardly know God at all. I just, just met God. I was learning scripture. I didn't know [00:16:00] anything. Mm-hmm. I preachers preaching with assumptive things about the knowledge of the, the bi biblical knowledge of the congregation, and he left me in the ditch and yeah.
But Ed
Mike Glenn: Hardwick, who, who's your pastor at the time, discipled you.
Dave Ramsey: Oh yeah, he did. Personally, but I mean, but my point is. Completely ignorant.
Mike Glenn: Right?
Dave Ramsey: Completely. It was ridiculous how much I didn't know. And so I met God on the way up, and as we were growing that the first million and then we lost it all. So I got to know him on the way down.
And, and I say all that to, to answer your question, which is, you know, on the way down, uh, not only did I go broke, but I was broken. Mm. I got the opportunity to start. Over and I got a real clear understanding that I, Jesus is not my savior. He's the Lord Ah
Mike Glenn: yeah.
Dave Ramsey: Of my life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Every component.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Every part of it. And a part [00:17:00] of that is he's a savior.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: But more important, not, not more importantly, but also importantly. Mm-hmm. I guess it, it is that. God owns it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: So if I'm gonna be married, I gotta figure out how to do that through that lens. Right. I'm gonna raise kids, I gotta do it through that lens.
If I'm gonna handle money, I gotta do it through that lens. And the first thing you grasp at a very primitive level, if you really start to understand financial things in scripture, is you don't own it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And it's not the tithe and it's not a love offering. It's all of it.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Dave Ramsey: I don't own it.
And the funniest thing happens once you really do that. It's easy to give away other people's money.
Generosity is a natural thing. Yeah. It's like,
Mike Glenn: yeah,
Dave Ramsey: yeah. Okay. God, uh, that person, one of your kids over here needs this thing. And it's like. Okay. [00:18:00]
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: And it, it's the ultimate abundance mentality. Um, 'cause you got, I've got an infinite source,
Mike Glenn: right?
Dave Ramsey: Who's infinitely wise.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Um, not bound by time and space, not time bound by any level of intellect.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Dave Ramsey: And boy, you talk about something you can trust. Um, and you can just go, yeah. Oh yeah. You can walk around with an open hand. You go,
Mike Glenn: ah,
Dave Ramsey: the only thing, the only challenge I ever have is just making sure it's him.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: Not last night's pizza.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Dave Ramsey: You know, I mean, it's like if I, but if I,
Mike Glenn: it's just a prompting of the
Dave Ramsey: spirit.
Yeah. If Sharon and I are aligned and we both have peace about it Yeah. And we prayed through. Mm-hmm. And if it's a substantial thing, we are always gonna do that. If it's a minor thing, we don't even think about it. But, um, but a substantial thing. You know, we're gonna, if we're lying and we got peace of back, we're, we call that God.
Yeah. And 99.9% of the time it is.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dave Ramsey: And we, because, and you can tell with the rear view mirror mm-hmm. You look back. Right. 'cause hindsight's always 2020. Mm-hmm. With whether that was God or [00:19:00] last night's pizza.
Mike Glenn: You are a great friend of pastors.
Dave Ramsey: I love pastors.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, and I have been privileged to be part of several groups that you have pulled together.
Uh, wanted to give pastors a good place to celebrate. Uh, a good place to share what's going on in their lives, uh, to, to make some kind of foundational friendships. I mean, some of my best friends I have met at, at these groups. What is it that you wish churches knew about? Pastors?
Dave Ramsey: That they probably, as a group, we all know the exceptions, but as a group, they're the most underpaid, underappreciated, under affirmed.
Fabulous human beings on the planet.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Dave Ramsey: If you were gonna sign up for something that you did not get positive information and you didn't get paid enough mm-hmm. That's what you'd sign up for? I mean, because everybody leaving the parking lot is sending a negative [00:20:00] email.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: Uh, because they have their own stuff they're supposed to be dealing with and can't manage to do that.
Instead, they've gotta fix some guy who just poured his heart out mm-hmm. From the pulpit and, um. And yet what I see is I see people I, I see real servants.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: All over America. All over the world. Uh, people that, uh, sacrifice, uh, people that put other people first. Uh, people that are genuinely grieved when someone in their flock is hurting.
Mm-hmm. Um, they care deeply and, um. And, and they just don't get enough money and they don't get enough attaboys.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: And, uh, it's ridiculous in, in a sense, um, it, it's, you know, everybody, the sad thing is, is that this, that, that, the picture that people sometimes put in their minds is the, is the [00:21:00] bad stories.
Right. The ones that went sideways. Mm-hmm. But there's really very few of those. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Statistically it's
Dave Ramsey: comparatively, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: I mean, if you wanted to go through the CEOs of. Publicly traded companies, your percentages aren't near as good.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dave Ramsey: Of hu, of good humans. I mean, and, and mis and stupid people tricks.
Yeah. I mean, it's just, they're, they're not, if you wanted to go through, you know, major league, uh, sports mm-hmm. Of some kind, it's horrible.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: Very small percentage of good humans. Right. And, and, uh, comparatively mm-hmm. You just can't find a, a, a compartment, a department, a segment o of, uh. Career that even compares mm-hmm.
The quality of human beings and, and, uh, that's who God ends up calling. Now they're not perfect and but, but they, but you know, I, I just, uh, the. I can say stuff in pulpits and I get the honor, honor to speak in a lot of churches all over America. And I can say stuff that other people [00:22:00] can't say 'cause I don't get paid there.
Um, and I just tell you 'cause the congregation needs to freaking straighten up. Yeah. And try being nice for change. Yeah. You know. To your pastor. Oh my gosh. Do something good for 'em. And you know, one of the benefits, one of those things, one of the, one of the groups that, that you came to is I just called all the pastors in the area mm-hmm.
That I knew, which is most of them mm-hmm. Of the, they're doing substantial work of some kind and just get everybody together.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dave Ramsey: Absolutely no agenda.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey: Just everybody get together, hang out at my farm or hang out at my house. And, uh, we'll do that three or four times a year usually. And we have for, oh gosh, 10, 15 years I guess.
Yeah. And because some of the pastors live, their churches are four miles apart and they don't know each other.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: They're two, they're in their own little world. Mm-hmm. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're stuck in their brand. Mm-hmm. And they can't get over to the other brand and meet somebody. And, um, and, and you know, one of the coolest things that's happened out that is, uh, two, two really cool things is when someone is going through a hard time at a church, um, some kind of a hard [00:23:00] time, and there's all kinds of definitions of that.
Uh, the, the other guys are gathered around them, right? And love them well. Um, and that's happened handful of times over the years there. Uh, and, and then the second thing though, I think the most important thing probably is, is that they all sit around and start talking and they're like, oh. Every congregation this way, it's, it normalizes the crazies.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: It normalizes the weird stuff mm-hmm. That pastors have to deal with because they thought that they were, and they go, oh, this is like everywhere.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dave Ramsey: Uh, it's kinda like when we're used to get in those financial peace university groups and at a church, right. And yeah. Sitting around the circle and they're.
Oh, Ken and Barbie are in debt too. Who knew? They're Beau, the beautiful people at the church. You know? I thought they're broke too. Yeah. I'm not the only one that's broke. 'cause I get kind of normalized this mm-hmm. Thing of, I, I'm incompetent with money and I've gotta get competent. Mm-hmm. And so it, it normalizes some of the pain.
That's associated with pastoring. It normalizes some of the weird stuff [00:24:00] that happens that you deal with and, and it goes, oh gosh, I thought I was on, I thought I was on Mars by myself. And it turns out all these guys within a 10 mile radius have the exact same issues going on.
Mike Glenn: Well, Dave, uh, you know, you and I have been friends for, gosh, 30 years or so, and, uh, it has certainly been an honor, uh, to walk this road with you and to celebrate you and your kids and, uh, and all your grandkids.
He's Dave Ramsey. I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engaged Church Network. Thanks for being part of it.
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