Mike Harder on How to Lead Large Congregations
In this episode of ECN Weekly, Mike Glenn sits down with Mike Harder the Lead Pastor of First Baptist Spartanburg to explore what it means to lead with love, humility, and a long-term vision in a historic church context. As a former Brentwood staff member and missionary kid, our guest shares candid insights about stepping into a church with nearly 200 years of legacy, following a beloved long-term pastor, and discerning what to change—and what not to.
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Mike Harder: People don't follow leaders that, that don't love them, 'cause they can go somewhere else. Mm-hmm. And so I would just like, I would just tell them, "Love where you are, and just focus on the, the flock that God has entrusted you to lead."
Mike Glenn: Well, you have been at First Baptist Spartanburg two years?
Mike Harder: Two-year anniversary. Was, uh... I was voted in in May, and then I started preaching, uh, August 1st two years ago, and
Mike Glenn: it's been an [00:01:00] incredible ride. So let's, let's talk about, uh, beginnings. Uh, for those who don't know, First Baptist Ch- uh, Spartanburg is a very old, very prestigious, well-known, uh, historic ch- church in South Carolina.
It has had a history, uh, w- from my time living there, uh, has a history of great preaching and, uh, statewide known preaching because of the television show. Uh, but like, uh, a lot of downtown churches, was feeling a little tired. I mean, that, that's my impressions. Am I, am I, am I, am I accurate there, or is there anything you need to add?
Mike Harder: Well, that's great. Yeah, it... You know, I have a incredible legacy that I've inherited at First Baptist. Right. Mm-hmm. You know, we've been around, um, almost 200 years. Uh, we've been pioneers, [00:02:00] innovators in the upstate for a long time, a lot of history and stability. Um, I'm the third pastor in the last 60 years- Wow.
Mm-hmm ... which is pretty... So the two previous pastors were, were there th- 30 years each. Mm-hmm. And my predecessor's incredible pastor, leader. He was Billy Graham's pastor, uh, did Billy's funeral. Um, and- You know, has been just an incredible advocate and friend to me. Mm-hmm. But the church, you know, after you've been around for 30 years, sometimes it's hard to lead- Right
uh, when you know that you're not gonna be the one taking people into the Promised Land. Right. And so there's just some natural atrophy that happens when you come to a place where you know that you're not gonna be taking the church into the next step. Right. I think our church experienced that last several years before.
Yeah, what-
Mike Glenn: whatever started it, you, you won't be there to complete it. Uh, I think you're right. Mm-hmm. So you come in. So let's talk about, what were the first things that, uh, [00:03:00] you looked for, watched for, discovered, decided to do, decided not to do? Because you've obviously gotten off- You know- You, you've gotten off to a good start.
And, uh- Yeah ... sustained a lot of good work. So how, how did you start working in that garden so that now we're, we're beginning to see a good harvest?
Mike Harder: You know, the Lord's been really gracious. This church was ready for some new leadership, and they've, they've really taken off with that. And I, I don't know if everybody knows this, but, you know, I was on staff at Brentwood.
Mike Glenn has been a mentor and a friend. And Mike, you've just been so good to me. And so I know we talked about this a lot before I moved here- Right ... 'cause you were one of the very first people that knew I was coming here, and you gave me some really good advice that helped me navigate some of this.
But probably the, one of the best things that I heard from you was to just spend a lot of time figuring out the culture and getting to know people and just letting people know [00:04:00] that you love them. And I think you said, "Have a lot of apple pie and a lot of coffee." That's right. And I did that. I spent a ton of time
I told my assistant when I got here, I said, "You know, why don't you just schedule every day that I don't have, like, a work thing, just with a, any opening, just with somebody- Mm-hmm ... who's a key leader. I don't even know who those people are. I need you to go figure out who I need to get time with and just ma- you know- Right
make that happen." And so that was, like, one of the best things I did, because I developed a lot of friends. You know, friendship makes all ministry possible. Uh-huh. And so I just- Started, like, trying to build deep roots and try to understand them. I was a missionary kid, and so you never really ever live- leave the mission field as a missionary kid.
You kind of always have that in your mi- ma- mindset. And so I started thinking, like, you know, how would my dad, as a missionary, look to enter the context that he was in? I need to do the same things. So I started going like, "What does it mean to be a South Carolinian? What are the things that people in Spartanburg like?
You know, are they Clemson fans or South [00:05:00] Carolina fans? How m- many are each? Do they actually like one another?" Like, just trying to get to know what made this community. Well, so that was kind of the biggest thing I did at first. And then the second thing I did was I tried not to change a whole lot. Like, I was like- Right
the biggest change is me. Like, just let them get to know me. So I'm not trying to change a lot.
Mike Glenn: And you, you would have been quite a, a shock to the system, going from Don, uh, Whitten to, uh, to you. Uh- Yeah.
Mike Harder: Yeah, I- I mean, you know, the, my predecessor, Don, um, larger than life personality, but also a South African.
Yeah. So he had this incredible accent. We used
Mike Glenn: to- And the guy before him was from- We used to tease him that he couldn't preach any better than us, that his, his accent. That's right. Yeah, so. So I mean, it was like- He did the weather report ... you know, everyone was like-
Mike Harder: Yeah ... "You have a different accent." I was like, "Yeah."
"I just sound like everybody else," you know? Um, so that was a... And the guy before him was actually Scottish, so like- That's right ... they've only had, like, British accents- Yeah. ... for the last 60 years. Um, but, uh, but so yeah, just getting to [00:06:00] know that, and just kind of letting people kind of know what I'm like.
'Cause like, there's a cultural shift. It all starts with the leader, right? Right. So you're like, you realize you're bringing a new vision, new leadership. In fact, I had to even stop saying, "Well, I learned this at Brentwood," 'cause I knew I was bringing so much new culture. Mm-hmm. I had to kind of just say, "You know, I'm, I'm, I'm coming in as one of you," and try to make them realize that I really was for them, you know?
Right. I'm not just bringing all this change. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Um, but it's hard, 'cause like, I'm, I'm somebody that's a change agent. Right. Like, I naturally see where we can go and want to change things. So I remember you actually telling me like, "Hey, Mike, like, slow down. If you're gonna be there for, you know, a year-
you can make a lot of changes. You're gonna be there for 30, then- That's right,
Mike Glenn: you got plenty of time ... you have time. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, let, let's talk about that, because so many, uh, uh, of our friends find difficulty because they try to change too much too [00:07:00] fast, and they do it before they've earned their spurs.
Uh, I, you know, as I often say, every congregation has to ordain you. Mm. Everybo- every congregation has to give you permission to lead. And just 'cause you've shown up with a title doesn't mean they've given you permission to lead. So one, let's talk about the inner dialogue, because, because I know you. You are fast wired, hard charging, uh, there's the hill, let's get it.
Uh, but- H- how did you talk to yourself about patience and slowing down so that everybody could get on board to follow you?
Mike Harder: You know, I think part of it was just saying to myself, "It's okay if it's not all going to, to change right now." In fact, I wrote a list of all the things I wanted to get done that first year, and I...
My first day of work, I sat down with my number one guy, the, the administrator, who's, like, an executive pastor level guy, and we made a [00:08:00] list of everything that we needed to see changed, and then I put that list in a drawer. I didn't look at it again- ... till a year later. How, how, how long was that list? Uh, it was one page.
How many... One page? But it was big things, you know? Yeah. But it was funny. At the end of the year, I was like, I actually, I actually had accomplished all of them. Yeah. Like, those are the things where like these are the big rocks that need to change. Right. But it, but it didn't feel like I was working at them as much.
But we, we were just like, "Okay, there's things that we need to change," and then I just told myself, like, "You gotta just, like, relax and just love people. You're... If you don't... If people don't feel like they, that you like them or love them, they're not gonna follow you." No, not at all. And so we just started, like, just trying to do dinners.
I mean, we were doing as many meetings as possible, like large group dinners every Wednesday night with, like- Mm-hmm ... small groups. Uh, we call them life groups here. You know, we, we'd be doing meet and greets after the service. We were just trying to meet as many people as possible, and honestly, that took so much energy.
There wasn't much more for us to do [00:09:00] other than just try to preach great messages, which would be the other thing- Right ... I would just tell people. Like, just preach. Preach about... Preach the scriptures. Mm-hmm. Preach about yourse- self. Like, just tell people, like, stories about yourself. They just soak all that stuff up- Mm-hmm
'cause they just want to get to know you. And then I started dripping in little pieces of foundational, uh, culture and vision that I w- wanted people to know, but I wouldn't even tell them it was that. I'd just be like, "Hey, you know- Yeah ... we wanna be the kind of people that saturates Spartanburg, the Carolinas, and the world."
And I just said that phrase over and over and over again. I didn't tell them that was my vision for them, but I was like- Mm-hmm ... "We wanna saturate Spartanburg." And when I started hearing people saying it back to me, I was like, "Okay- Right ... now we can just start talking about some more things." Okay. You know?
All right, how long did that take? Six months probably. Six months. Yeah. Okay. Six months, seven months, and then I started, like, codifying it, putting it on, you know, some places, but, like, I just started going, "Hey, we're saturating, saturating," and explaining what that is. But I started just putting that into as many, many sermons as I could and just kind [00:10:00] of talked about my vision for that because, like, everything I wanted to do over the next 30 years can be found within that statement.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Mike Harder: Um, so but that helped me feel like at least I was doing something, some kind of change. There was new programming. It was new staff. It was new leadership. It was a new way of thinking.
Mike Glenn: But I- The new way of thinking.
Mike Harder: New way of thinking. That then- Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: transformed in- into a new way of doing
Mike Harder: And, and the only moves I made were things that are, like, essential.
You know? I was like, "Okay, I'm not gonna try to change anything." That's what I tried to do. For a year, and it was really hard for me, I was like, "I'm not gonna change anything other than, like, talking about culture and dreaming and what, that stuff." Right. So, but, uh, one... There's two moves I did do, and they're only by necessity, and I knew that whatever my first moves happened, they needed to be w- they needed to win 'cause- Mm-hmm
you know, Mike, it's funny. I have this thing, and it sounds super cynical, but people don't really wanna follow vision. They wanna follow winning. Yeah. They wanna follow a winner. [00:11:00] Like Nick Saban, your favorite coach of all time. You know? He could talk about the kind of program he wanted to have- Yeah, yeah
and the vision for, uh, what kind of thing Alabama football could be or whatever. Yeah. But what's gonna keep his job is if he's actually winning. Winning. Like, you know? That's right. Yeah. Talk to me. What was, what was one of those early wins? Well, probably the biggest early win was our modern worship. So we have two worship styles at First Baptist.
Mm-hmm. We've got a blended service that has a choir and orchestra, and they sing, well, hymns as well as modern music. It's, it's vibrant. But they had a modern, like, contemporary worship that was just really struggling, and it had grown to about, grown down to about 300 in two services. So that was this, like, really tough scene.
Mm-hmm. Um, so I com- I did two things. One, I combined those two services into one and moved it to the 10:45 hour. [00:12:00] And all of a sudden it had critical mass. And simply because I think I'm just a younger preacher, new people started coming to that service. And pretty quickly, like within the first couple months, first three months, it got so full that we couldn't...
We were turning people away. Yeah. Like, it was, like, the room was about a 600-seat room, and we were packed to the gills. So I made the other big move, which was, you know, six months after that I moved them across the street to our main sanctuary to give us some more space. Mm-hmm. And that has grown exponentially, too.
So, like, in that, uh... So those are the two big moves I did that year. I was like, filled it up and then I moved it over three or four months later. And, uh, that bigger room seats about 12 to 1,400 people, and it just kept growing, and we could see it filling in, and now the balcony's full. Mm-hmm. And on Easter we had 1,600 people in that service- Wow
which is [00:13:00] crazy- Wow ... uh, two years, you know, a year and a half later. Mm-hmm. So it's like, but that, but that momentum piece, people are like, "Okay, you know what you're talking about, and the decisions you're making we-" Right ... you know, like, "We can start trusting you with them," you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So every decision I made- At that first two years, I was like, "It's got to win."
Mm-hmm. Like, it has to win or else we're not doing it. If it's like a 50/50, I'm not doing it. It has to be something that we know is gonna be an easy win. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, you h- you have done some, some staff transitions, uh, that naturally needed to happen. One of, one of them that went really well was the w- minister of worship who had been there...
Remind me of his name. I love the guy.
Mike Harder: Name is Steve Skinner. He'd been there- Steve Skinner ... 35 years. Yeah, been
Mike Glenn: a skinny, uh, a, a, a true, uh, worship leader. I mean- Mm-hmm ... he came to the platform with his heart, [00:14:00] uh, and brought people into worship. But, but he knew it was kind of, uh, time for, for him to do different things, uh, situation in his family.
But you let him decide that- Yes ... and, and honored him in that process. And I, and I think, uh, because the, of the way you handled it and the way you honored him, you honored the church in the same m- in, in kind of a, a backward kind of way. You honored him, and that was honoring the church, and I think the church really appreciated that.
So talk, talk about the, the challenge of, of, of a s- uh, of having to make a move like that.
Mike Harder: Well, you know, when I looked at different staff, we had a bunch of guys who had served underneath Don, my predecessor, for- Very, a very stable,
Mike Glenn: a very stable situation ... a long time. Very stable. Yeah, very stable. And they were...
But
Mike Harder: they were all, like, [00:15:00] past retirement. I think some of them were like, "We're gonna make this transition healthy for the church," which is such a blessing, because- Right ... I think they kind of banded together and said, "Not on our watch." Right. "We're gonna make sure the baton's handed from Don to Mike." Right.
And even before they even knew who I was. Mm-hmm. And so I think Steve was one of those guys, and he and his, um, wife had been, uh, thinking actually about retiring earlier. But when Don left, they're like, "We're gonna make sure this thing s- holds together." And when I met Steve, at first, I was like, "I'm not sure if we're gonna have real chemistry."
Like, I'm- Right ... I don't... I mean, he was so much older than me, you know? Mm-hmm. I don't, I don't... He s- he was really impressive. Like, I was a little intimidated by him. He's just like, he's just a athletic, just specimen- Yeah, yeah ... of a man. He was like, seemed so formal. But I just decided to try to get to know him, and I ended up, like, really coming to a place where Steve and Gaye were some of our favorite people at church.
Right. His wife is, she, uh, she and my wife became really close. Like, she [00:16:00] became almost like a surrogate mo- mother to my wife. Wow. Steve and I became friends. Um, I found out the guy was this huge teddy bear, just like a l- just, just- ... the life of the party, just like a wonderful human being. And so I kept on telling people, like, "I'm asking him to stay as long as possible."
Right. Like, I was, like, trying to get him... I'm just like, "Don't leave." Like, "Can you do three more years?" You know? Yeah. And so I think people knowing that, 'cause people were asking me, like, "When's Steven gonna retire? We don't want him to go." I was like- Right ... "I don't either." I, I begged him to stay, and he had given me assurance that he'd be there another two years, um, after my first year.
He's like, "Hey, I've..." 'Cause he got rejuvenated. He's like, "I don't wanna leave." Right. "I love this." Yeah. "And I love you." Um, and so I was like, "All right, at least give me two more years." 'Cause he was getting close to 70, you know? It's like- Yeah. ... "Please don't leave." But then, um, they started having some health problems.
Mm-hmm. And he just said, "We just wanna be with grandkids." And, uh, we were in the middle of a capital campaign, and Easter was coming up, and I was like, "Oh, [00:17:00] no." He's like, "I'm gonna get you through the capital campaign. I'll get you through Easter, and then I think it's time for us to just, just, uh, retire." And so- Mm-hmm
you know, I gave people a chance to mourn. Um, shared it, we shared it pretty early. There is, there is a
Mike Glenn: grief. There is a grief when you, uh, when you lose a companion like that, yeah.
Mike Harder: Yeah, and I mean, I was able to tell him, like, why I also felt that way, like I also was, like, sad that he was leaving, um, and how grateful I was for him.
You know, 'cause sometimes it's hard for people sometimes in church. They think that... They almost, like, think the staff come with the church building. Like, almost like they're like a- ... like they can't retire. Fixtures. They're almost like- Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah.
Mike Harder: Yeah ... like action figures or elves,
Mike Glenn: you know? Y- y- but you get them with a set, huh?
That's right. That's right, like a little Lego. You can build the church, and you get these little mini figures that come with the church, yeah. Like, why would he retire? That's funny. Like, well,
Mike Harder: he is 70, you know what I mean? This is natural. Like, this happens for some people, you know?
Mike Glenn: Oh,
Mike Harder: yeah. [00:18:00] Uh, but, but we have a chance to say like, "Hey, you know, we're for you."
We had a special love offering for him. We had a huge party for him, uh, afterwards with, you know, people from all over the place. The choir threw big parties for him. So we just, like, celebrated it. And then one of the things we've done is we had an intentional interim, 'cause it's almost like a palate cleanser.
Right, yeah. Steve was so engaged- Right ... in that group that- Mm-hmm ... whoever came in would be directly compared to Steve. So we did an intentional interim. We had a guy in our church who had been a worship leader somewhere else. We've invited him, and he's led for the last three months, and some people were frustrated with him, and he got a lot of criticisms and stuff that were not always necessarily fair.
It was just different. Right. Um, and he's done an incredible job, but now we've hired our new worship pastor, and he's coming in, uh, 1st of August. So he's... We have a new young guy who actually has got a Kairos or Brentwood Baptist connection. Uh, and, uh- [00:19:00] He's a huge Mike Glenn fan. That's the, he, uh- Well, that's a requirement
but he's gonna be coming in- Every- everybody is, right? Uh, but he's gonna be coming in and he's gonna do a great job, and I think people compare him to the interim, not to Steve.
Mike Glenn: Right. Right, which is the purpose of the interim. Yeah, you kinda- Of course ... yeah, get that out of the way. Okay. You are now, uh, on a very significant platform.
The, the television ministry and all of that, you know, you're statewide and, uh, even going into other states like North Carolina, Georgia, and surrounding areas. How has that changed for you?
Mike Harder: Y- you know, it's funny 'cause it's, like, I'm really well-known in this particular part of the world. Like, I was at a pastor who's pretty well-known, friend of mine come preach for me, and I was like, it's like, "I know you're famous everywhere."
I, I- Yeah. ... I'm, I'm really famous in Spartanburg, and then it slowly, it diffuses from there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right, yeah. You get, y- you go down to Charleston, nobody knows where I'm at, who I am, or even Atlanta. But, [00:20:00] um, it is weird because you're always in the public eye. Yeah. So can't have bad moments driving, you know, when you're mad at somebody.
Y- y- Right ... you just have, just be wise, which honestly shouldn't every Christian always operate that way? Right. You know?
Mike Glenn: Well, it, and it matters how you treat your server at the restaurant, yeah.
Mike Harder: That's right. Yeah. And people recognize you, sometimes they say hi, sometimes you don't. One of the things that was wild was when we were new here and hadn't really figured that part out, we were at a Chipotle, my kids love Chipotle, and we were all tired, new place, trying to figure things out.
It's dinner time, I'm trying to get my kids to eat 'cause they're like, you know, free-range chickens trying to f- ... you know, trying to focus on me, like, "Come on." And we're like, "All right, eat your food. All right, we gotta go, we got this church thing to go to." And as we were leaving, somebody came over and was like, "Hey, by the way, I'm Jeff.
I go to your church."
Mike Glenn: They'd
Mike Harder: been watching us the whole
Mike Glenn: time. Yeah. [00:21:00] Yeah, trying to decide if you're the real deal. And you're like, "Oh, man, I hope I was nice to my kids." Yeah, yeah. You know? That's right. Bruises won't show, baby, huh? That's right. Okay. You're now, you're now the, the, the pastor of First Baptist Church Spartanburg, which is significant, so you're gonna have young pastors call you.
So what do you, what do you tell the young pastors who are just getting started? Have just come to my church, uh, what's your counsel to them?
Mike Harder: My counsel to them would be love the church you're at, not the one you want it to be. Yeah. Um, you know, God put you in place to lead that church, and love it. Love it well.
Like, people don't follow leaders that, that don't love them, 'cause they can go somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so I would just, like, I would just tell them, "Love where you are, and just focus on the, the flock that God has entrusted you- To lead. Mm-hmm. So, you know, a lot of times we look at other, [00:22:00] around and we just compare ourselves to other people and we're like, "Man, I wish- Right
I could be like that guy," or, "I could have- Yeah ... that part of the ministry- If I had, if I had that church ... or my church was like that." That, yeah. Yeah. And, and- Just be where you are ... yeah, just be you. Like everybody- Mm-hmm ... else is taken. Just enjoy the journey, stay in your lane, and dream what God has for you to dream.
Now, I think one of the best piece of advice you told me about vision is that vision isn't always just like, "I have a vision, y'all follow it." Right, right. But it's also, what's God doing within your people to give you- Right ... vision- Right ... rising from the bottom. That's right. Um- Identify that, mm-hmm ... I found that to be true here.
Um, but I think that one of the best things for young pastors is like, uh, be available. Make friends, make relate- You can't be with everybody. Like, I can't, I certainly can't be friends with everybody in my church. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, I'm just trying to make sure I raise my kids to love the Lord, right? But, but be, but make friends.
Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] Try to be available to people. Um, and, and then also, like, I think the biggest piece with it is just like, do your best job and then just trust the Lord with the rest.
Mike Glenn: Right. Right. Well, I, I, I love that advice. B- be, be at the church you're at, at, you're at, not the church that you wanted to be at.
Mm-hmm. Or not the church you wanna... Be, be mindful of who these people are in their own journey. Uh, that's a good word. But, uh, I should, I should expect such from you, so, uh, you are- ... after all Mike Harter, the pastor of First Baptist Church Spartanburg, South Carolina, and, uh, a, a great friend. And I appreciate you being on the podcast today, Mike.
He's Mike Harter, First Baptist Church Spartanburg, and, uh, and we are glad to, uh, to have been part of his journey, and we're eager to see how God will continue to use you and your ministry.
[00:24:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
