Charles Lawless on Spiritual Dangers and the Power of Prayer
This special episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast features a powerful conversation with Dr. Charles Lawless, a respected leader, author, and professor in the field of church leadership and spiritual formation.
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Charles Lawless: I was a young professor, and Dr. Coleman leaned across the table and he said to me, "Chuck, if you want your ministry to go beyond you, pour your life into other people, and do that for the rest of your life."
Mike Glenn: Right.
What is it that Chuck is in full rant about? Uh, you sit there, you watch the trends as I do, you hear things like I do. What is just... If you could just have the pulpit of every church for, for one sermon, what would that sermon be?
Charles Lawless: You know, that's a, that's a great question. I'll tell you, how about if I tell you what is, [00:01:00] what's become a real burden in my heart related, related to that?
The, uh, whole issue is, is I think particularly in North American churches, we are, we are not leading from our knees. And I know, Mike, that sounds hyper-spiritual. I get that. Um, but I am, I'm concerned that, uh, we, we have produced generations of leaders who have learned to pray only reactively, not, not proactively.
And, and what I mean by that is we've, we've learned to pray when we have to- Right ... uh, w- when we get stuck. We climb mountains. If we get stuck on the mountain, then we, then we pray. Mm-hmm. But if we can get over the mountain on our own, we're going to do that. And I, I think we do that in so many ways. We d- we do that with, with families in our churches.
We don't really start praying for families until we hear they're in trouble. Young people, not really [00:02:00] until we hear they're wandering into sin.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Charles Lawless: Uh, sister congregations, not until we hear they're, they're fighting. And even, we don't even follow Jesus' command to, to pray, "Father, lead us not into temptation, but deliver us-" Right
"from the evil one." We don't even pray about temptation till after we've, we've failed. And I think what's happened is we have a lot of leaders, and, and I don't, I don't claim to not be one of those leaders. I, I struggle with this, too, which is why it's a, a burden for me. I think, I think we lead in our own ability far too often, and too little dependence on uh, prayerful guidance from the, the Spirit of God and the, and the Word of God.
Mm-hmm. And consequently, we might be able to accomplish some things, but I don't know that we're making a lot of-
Mike Glenn: Kingdom difference, yeah ... dent in the darkness. Right. Yeah. Uh, Paul's, uh, admonition to the early church that we do not even know how to pray. [00:03:00]
Charles Lawless: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: That, that... And, and what scares me about that is that we may be praying, but if it's not this constant conversation, uh, we may actually be praying about or focusing on the wrong things because the Spirit has not led us to pray for this, this action or this, uh, issue.
Charles Lawless: Y- yeah, I really like the way you, you framed that. If it's not a constant conversation- Yeah ... I, I describe prayer as, as two sides of the same coin. It is, it is a cry for relationship with God and a confession of dependence on Him. It's, it's both. Mm-hmm. That cry for relationship says, "God, I just love you. I just love you, so I want to, I want to talk with you, I want to hang out with you."
Uh, that, that, that ex- that, uh, confession of dependence is, uh, is, "God, I need you." Right. So prayer really is, "God, I love you," and, "God, I need you." But if we're not praying out of, "God, I love you," [00:04:00] we're missing a significant part of prayer, and prayer only becomes, "Lord, I'm turning to you when I need you." And I think that misses the, the picture of, of a relationship with God that puts us n- naturally on our knees.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. You know, uh, a bunch of years ago, uh, the Lord invited me to a deeper prayer time. Hmm. And it was pure invitation. There was no guilt, no, "You're not doing this. I just want you to come deeper." And, uh, and my honest answer was, "No, I'm, I've made 100 promises to you, a million promises to you. I have kept none of them."
Hmm. "So I... That's embarrassing to me. I know it's embarrassing to you, so let's just let this thing slide." So, well, where I ended up was, uh, I committed for 30 days. So it's July 10th as we're talking today. I just re-upped on July 1. Hmm.
Charles Lawless: Okay. And I'm
Mike Glenn: firm- I'm firmly committed to July 31. After that, I have no I have [00:05:00] no bets.
No, th- but I can, I can hold it together until July 31. Uh, but what happened out of that, much to my surprise, was my marriage got better. Hmm. Now, here's the interesting thing about that. I didn't have a bad marriage.
Charles Lawless: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: If you had asked me, "What's, what's your mar-?" Well, I got a 10. I got a 10. I had no idea, Chuck, that God has 229, 517.
Hmm. Uh, uh, He has more numbers. He was feeling sorry for me that I had a 10 when all of this, that I didn't even know to ask for- Didn't know how to get to. Thought I was doing great. Uh, but there was so much more He had in store for me- Mm ... that, that He had to tell me, "This is available to you if you want it, if you ask for it."
Uh, see, that's the thing that, that going back to y- you don't even know how to pray, [00:06:00] uh, u- unless I'm with you in this conversation. Yeah,
Charles Lawless: and I, I think one of our issues, Mike, is, and I think about my generation and the students that I, that I get to teach now, if I ask my students, "How many of you have a, a prayer role model- Mm-hmm
that you just, you just think of a brother in Christ, a sister in Christ who you just know they, they walk with God, and when they- Mm-hmm ... when they get on their face, they, they touch, they touch heaven?" Many of my students could not name that person. Mm. Not, not a parent, not a grandparent, not a, not a pastor.
Uh, I think these are, I think these are just real issues that we just don't have those, those persons that, um, that can help us think about that and, and model that for us. Right. And I, as, as we think about leadership in general, I'm also, I'm also struck by the fact that the, the men that I [00:07:00] would put in that category, my- the, the prayer warriors that I would know are the same, the same guys who are the godliest men I know.
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah. They are
Charles Lawless: the, the best husbands and daddies I know. They're the best evangelists I know. They're the most- Mm-hmm ... mission-minded people I know. Uh, somehow all that's connected. You, you be with God, and that affects everything you are.
Mike Glenn: Every, e- everything. That's right, yeah. I w- I was gonna say, this lack of prayer leads to a thinness of life.
Charles Lawless: Mm.
Mike Glenn: A shallowness of life. Uh, and, and I think that's what we see, uh- Yeah, that's, that's a good way to describe it ... as, as, um, yeah. So with that. Uh, you and I have talked a lot about, uh, uh, leadership in, in, in local church life, the lack of leaders, the crisis of, of leadership in, in the local church right now.
Uh, and, and we've all talked about the problem. I, I want you and I to talk about some [00:08:00] solutions. What are the things that we can do? Is there anything we can do, uh, for, uh, to find the leaders that will take our church into this post-truth, post-everything world?
Charles Lawless: Mm-hmm. Uh, the, a couple things come to mind.
If I can, if I can take just a moment and tell just- A little bit of my story. Years, years ago, I was teaching at Southern Seminary, and I had the privilege of, of having dinner with Robert Coleman, uh, author of the, The Master Plan of Evangelism. And Dr. Coleman had a student with him, because every place he went, he was always investing in somebody.
Mm-hmm. And I was a young professor, and Dr. Coleman leaned across the table and he said to me, "Chuck, if you want your ministry to go beyond you, pour your life into other people, and do that for the rest of your life." Right. And I had at that point, Mike, I, before I became a seminary professor, I, I had pastored for 14 years.
And I looked back across those, [00:09:00] those 14 years and I loved pastoring. Mm-hmm. Uh, I, I miss pastoring. I think about it every day of my life in, in some capacity. But I look back and think, can I point to people that I personally invested in, calling out the called, modeling for them closely what it means to walk with God and minister to people?
I didn't, I didn't do that well. And I, and I think one of the places where this has to start is, uh, pastors have to recognize our responsibility, uh, to personally call out the called and invest in them, walk with them in such a way that they, they want to be leaders in, in the church.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Charles Lawless: I, I think, Mike, uh, there are a lot of young people who, who ‑ be where God wants them to be.
But when they think about church leadership and [00:10:00] when they think about pastoring in particular, too many young guys I know have seen too much- Right ... in- Yeah ... an unhealthy church. Mm-hmm. Uh, they've seen too many wounded pastors. They've seen too many broken homes, uh, too many moral failures. Right. And they, they've seen just enough that they're not sure they want to be a, a church leader, and they're not sure they want- Yeah
to be a pastor. And so they- And, and, a- along that line- They gotta have somebody who will help them ... I'm surprised.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, I'm surprised at the, you no longer hear of, of family lineages of pastors. Yeah. My grandfather was a pastor, my father was a pastor, and I'm a pastor. Yeah. Uh, that, that doesn't happen much anymore.
Charles Lawless: You know, I'm, I'm seeing some of that, uh, among our students here at Southeastern. But, but to your point, almost to a student, those students would say to me, "I never wanted to do this." Um, and they, they're, they're [00:11:00] following God's call Right, yeah ... but they have to be convinced, and it's because of what they, it's because of what they saw.
It's because of what they experienced, and, and I think, I think they're frightened by a lot of it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. So y- you're saying, uh, a- and, uh, if this is what you're saying, I agree with you wholeheartedly, because so many pastors, uh, this, and we saw this writ large in COVID, so many pastors are hurt, wounded, uh, confused, that they are not wanting other people to come into the ministry.
Charles Lawless: Yeah, I think-
Mike Glenn: It-
Charles Lawless: I don't know necessarily- Now, I may have said that too strong ... they don't want anyone. Yeah. I think they're not intentionally-
Mike Glenn: Encouraging it, yeah ... seeking to
Charles Lawless: lead people there, and some of that may well come out of their own woundedness. Why- Mm-hmm ... why would I invite someone into, into the world of ministry if I'm, if I'm hurting?
Yeah. But, but I also think, Mike, there are other guys who are enjoying ministry. They're just not thinking [00:12:00] about reproducing themselves. The, the, the ministry is around them, and I don't even mean that arrogantly necessarily. Yeah. They're just busy. Mm-hmm. And the thought of having to, to invest in somebody else who's going to take some of my time, some of my energy, uh, is, is- It's, there's a lack of capacity
it's just a lot to put on a full plate.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, the African American church does this a lot better than the white church. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And any bishop you talk to- That's been my experience, yes ... any bishop you talk to will talk about his boys.
Charles Lawless: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And it's a pastor who, anything from being a driver while the, while the young man was in seminary to being a research assistant, serving on his staff, but it was someone he's invested in.
Uh, and, uh, we're gonna let one of my boys preach today, and then he would sit on the front row, uh, and encourage this young man during the sermon. So there, there is that culture that I think a lot of Southern Baptist churches are missing. [00:13:00]
Charles Lawless: Yeah, it's interesting you say that. I hadn't thought about that, but as I think about, uh, churches where I preach with, with our African American brothers, that's, that's largely what I've, what I've seen.
Mike Glenn: Right. Uh, so, so it is possible- Mm-hmm ... uh, to do. So you're saying the first thing we need to do is awaken our, our own pastors, uh, to their calling to identify and reach out and mentor the called within their own congregations.
Charles Lawless: Yes, yes.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Charles Lawless: And, and I, and I think that means for, for those of us who are pastors is, is intentionally praying, "God, help me to recognize something in the, the folks that you're calling."
Right. "Help, help me to see in them." 'Cause I do think our, our calling needs to have an external sense of affirmation- Right ... that others see in us the, the work of God in our lives. But I think those of us who are doing the work need to keep our eyes open, keep our ears open.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You know, I tell people all the time, my church knew I was called before I did.[00:14:00]
Charles Lawless: Uh, yeah, same- Yeah, my, my- ... same thing for me. Yeah, my little, my- And I was, I was a teenager when the Lord called me ... yeah,
Mike Glenn: my, yeah, my little church used to walk up to me all the time and go, "Pay attention to your life." Wow. "God's up to something. Pay attention to your life, Mike." Uh, and I, I, I, I can name a dozen people in my, in my little church who would, who would literally put their finger in my chest, say, "Pay attention to your life."
Charles Lawless: That's interesting. I, I remember the, uh, the... I can still remember the lady who stopped me at church one day, and I was probably 15,
Mike Glenn: 16- Mm-hmm ...
Charles Lawless: and, and said to me, she put it in the form of a question, "Have you ever thought that God might be calling you to be a preacher?" And, and my calling was very dramatic.
Yeah. The day I was saved, the Lord called me to, to preach, but I hadn't verbalized that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Charles Lawless: Uh, and she, she put me in the corner to say- ... it's, it's time, it's time to be honest. Yes. Right.
Mike Glenn: So
Charles Lawless: I am, I am grateful for her.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah. And I, and I'm grateful for all those who believed in me sometimes when I didn't, I didn't [00:15:00] believe in myself.
Yeah. Uh, and, uh, so, so what else, what else would you say to a local church?
Charles Lawless: I, I think we have to learn to, uh, and this, this follows suit with what I had just said. I think we have to learn to raise up out of our own churches the people who will help lead our churches. Right. And we're seeing more and more churches do that.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I think there's real wisdom in that, when you've got someone who already understands your culture and, and has the vision of the, of the church. Um, and as, as we do that, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk as an, as an educator here, as, as we do that, if we want to equip, uh, leaders that we're trying to raise up out of our churches, this, this is a new day when, when young guys, young women who are, who are called to some level of, of ministry can get, can get training without having to leave- Right
the church. Right. That wasn't the case when [00:16:00] I went to seminary, when you went to sem- we had to, we had to move to a, to a campus. But, but and I think moving to a campus is ideal for many, many students. But for, but for young folks in a good church learning from strong leaders, getting really valid ministry experience, they can get theological training without having to leave that, that ministry field.
I think there's great value in that.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Yeah. And I, and I
Charles Lawless: would want churches to, to at least be aware of that and keep, keep their eyes open for, for folks who are, who are sensing some, some level of calling.
Mike Glenn: Right. Right. The thing that I run into every now and then when I talk to, uh, pastors about identifying, mentoring, and, and, and all of that, they are, um, hesitant to give these people any [00:17:00] real leadership authority-
Charles Lawless: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: or position, uh, lest it reflect badly on them. Uh, and so I'm having to encourage... You know, not even Jesus got 12 out of 12.
Charles Lawless: That's, that's exactly right. And they all fled when he was arrested. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: they all, they all fled. Uh, John Mark failed Paul at the beginning- Right ... of the story. Yeah. Uh, but at the end became an encouragement to him.
So, uh, that's just part of the game, uh, part of the process. It,
Charles Lawless: it is,
Mike Glenn: it is
Charles Lawless: the necessary risk that you take.
Mike Glenn: Yes.
Charles Lawless: Um, but you and I wouldn't be, you and I wouldn't be talking, we wouldn't be having this conversation if people hadn't given us that opportunity- Yeah ... and taken that risk. In fact, I think even as we talk, Mike, I think about a sermon I preached, uh, as a 16, 17-year-old that [00:18:00] I'm sure embarrassed my, my pastor, my church-
and everybody else. Mine too. Don't
Mike Glenn: even bring up my first sermon, please. Now I think
Charles Lawless: about it, I'm, I'm incredibly grateful, and I suspect you are too, that we started preaching when things were recorded on cassette tapes that have- Yeah ... long disappeared.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Um,
Charles Lawless: I w- I wouldn't want my early sermons on- Oh, please
Mike Glenn: no.
Please no ... on, on tape That's my worst nightmare ... yet. Yeah.
Charles Lawless: But my, my pastor gave me opportunity to preach. He took me on, and I'm dating myself here, he took me on weekly visitation, uh, where we went and visit- Wow ... we went and knocked on doors every week. Uh, leaders invited me to teach a Sunday school class when I was 16, and I, I had no idea what I was doing, but they were willing to walk with me
Mike Glenn: and, and- Yeah, and encourage you.
Yeah ...
Charles Lawless: e- even as a young pastor, honestly, at my first church, I had no idea what I was doing. My second church, I still didn't know what I was doing. And in both churches, I had [00:19:00] leaders w- who wrapped their arms around me in times when I desperately needed that. Mm-hmm. And they encouraged me to stay faithful.
Yeah. They didn't, they didn't turn against me. Uh, they didn't fight what I was trying to do. They recognized that I was young. They allowed me to be young. They allowed me to make mistakes, and they loved me through those. Yeah. That's what I would, for all of my students that I teach here at Southeastern, I would long for every one of my pastoral students to be able to pastor churches like I got to pastor.
Um-
Mike Glenn: Well, yeah, me too. I was, one of, uh, one of my first churches, I went to a deacons meeting, and the whole deacons meeting were them laughing at me. Yeah, at, at the stupid things I had done, and they were laughing and pointing and go, "You won't do that again, will you?" "No, no, I won't." "You learned? Do we need to..."
"Okay." They would just... But they didn't des- Yeah, you know- I learned, but they didn't destroy me. No, that's right.
Charles Lawless: You know? That's right. Um- And you and I know, you and I [00:20:00] know
Mike Glenn: friends that, that made this similar kind of mistake, and, uh, and, and the church ate 'em up Uh, and I'm, and I'm grateful for folks who, who understood their role in how God was preparing me for my future ministry.
They understood their role.
Charles Lawless: Yeah, I could even tell you- Thank the good- ... this and have a real personal story. Uh, in my... When I was- I started as a single pastor, so the first 10 years I was a pastor I was single. Um, and I got engaged to a young lady. It just wasn't right. Uh, I missed it, to be honest, Mike, and I, I broke off the engagement, uh, went to my deacons and offered my resignation to them thinking, "Look, if I c- if I can't even lead my own life, I don't have any business leading yours."
And those, those men one by one said to me, "Pastor," uh, they called me brother, "Brother Chuck," said, "We're, we're happy you discovered this [00:21:00] now. Uh, we all make mistakes. We're, we're gonna walk with you through this."
Mike Glenn: Mm. And I'm-
Charles Lawless: Mm ... and I'm still in ministry because- Yeah ... those men- What
Mike Glenn: a gift, yeah ...
Charles Lawless: those men walked beside me.
Uh- Mm-hmm ... and many of them now are with the Lord. Uh, one of them w- we, we buried just a f- just a few weeks ago, and, and I will be forever grateful for the way they loved me-
Mike Glenn: Right ... when
Charles Lawless: I certainly didn't deserve it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, let's, let's not run by this point, 'cause it's significant for both of us. The role of the local congregation in supporting and encouraging and protecting- Yeah
the young pastor early in their journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, that we're not gonna let you pick on him. We're not gonna let you attack him. He's a young man, he's learning, he's getting better, and we're gonna stick with him.
Charles Lawless: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Uh, you know, I don't know that I have, I have thought [00:22:00] enough about, uh... You know, my, my emphasis has been on, uh, you know, what I'm telling guys is, as a pastor, half your job now is identifying and training the next generation.
It is. That's right. Uh, uh, but I don't know that I have, I have done enough talking to congregations about you have the, you have the r- the role as family. Uh, you know, uh, my little brother hacked off the neighbor kid one day and, and, and the neighbor kid chased him into our house, gonna beat up my little brother, and I stepped over to him.
I said, "Listen, you're a big brother. You understand nobody can beat up your little brother. That's the rule." Mm-hmm. "You understand that. Now, if you'll tell me why you wanna beat him, I'll go beat him." "But I can't let you beat him." You know, that's family. You understand that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I, I, I think there's something about churches going, "He is our young pastor.
He is our young man who's working his way. We [00:23:00] expect him to make mistakes."
Charles Lawless: E- e- exactly. Uh, what I, what I say to churches is this, and I don't g- I don't get enough opportunity to speak into churches b- like, like, uh, I'm about to speak, Mike. I, I wish I did. But if, if a church is a young man's first church, his first pastorate-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Charles Lawless: how they treat him will mark the rest of his ministry. Wow,
Mike Glenn: yeah, yeah.
Charles Lawless: Because if he, if he leaves w- knowing that that church loved
Mike Glenn: him-
Charles Lawless: Mm-hmm ... no matter what he faces the rest of his ministry, he will always know somewhere- That's
Mike Glenn: right ...
Charles Lawless: somewhere there is a g- Mm-hmm ... there's a church that, that loves him.
If, if that first church wounds him, he will always for the rest of his ministry wonder- Believe me ... a little bit- Mm-hmm ... when is the other shoe going to drop?
Mike Glenn: That's right. Yeah, good words. And,
Charles Lawless: and I, I agree with you. I think if [00:24:00] we're, if my church is the first church that a young man gets to lead, I do think we have a responsibility to help him start so well that he always has a good, a good memory.
Yes,
Mike Glenn: right. Yeah. Uh,
Charles Lawless: it's huge to me.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Good, good, good stuff. Well, okay, are you optimistic or pessimistic about the church in North America?
Charles Lawless: So it's a good question. Um, first of all, I still, I still believe and I know the, the church is God's, God's vessel for doing- Yes ... His work. And here's, here's what really governs my thinking theologically, biblically, and then I'll g- I'll give you my more particular answer.
One of my favorite books in the New Testament is the Book of First Corinthians, which is odd, but here's, but here's why. Paul starts that letter by very clearly saying in chapter one, "I thank [00:25:00] my God always for you, for your giftedness, for your testimony." He ju- he, "That God's gonna complete His work in you."
And then he ends that book with his most intimate closure of all of his letters. He says, "I want you to know how much I love you. Uh, I, I love you." And so the bookends of that, of that letter are, "I thank God for you, and I love you." Everything in between is, "But you are an absolute mess." Um, and, and that's, if, if you're gonna outline First Corinthians- Yeah, it's-
"I thank God for you. I love you." I love you. "Y'all are a mess." Um, and that's, and that's the way I look at, at the North American church. I think we're, I think we're a mess. Um, and I ha- I have the privilege of working with the International Mission Board, too, so I get to see what God's doing around the world.
Right. I long to see in the North American church some of the things I'm seeing- Yeah ... around the world. But also know this. I still [00:26:00] thank God for the, for the church, and I still love the church, no matter how messy it is, because it's still God's church. Um, in that sense, I- I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic that I see young men going out who want the church to make a difference, who, who want to raise up others to walk beside them, who want to lean on others to help guide them.
I'm optimistic about that. My, my pessimism is, uh, I think as I said before, we're not, we're not leading prayerfully. And I think so many of us who lead lost our fire for Jesus- Hmm ... a long time ago, that for me, and again, I speak to myself here, that for me is evidenced in our lack of desire to go talk about Him to a lost world.[00:27:00]
Right. Um, you- we, we read the Gospel of Mark, when people are fascinated by Jesus, they go talk about Him, even when He tells them not to. Not to, yeah. Um, and for many of my early days in ministry, all I knew to do was tell people about Jesus, and I couldn't wait to do it, and God honored that. Then, then you get experience, and you get other stuff on the table, and Jesus becomes routine for you, and you stop telling the story.
We're, we're not telling the Go- we're not doing evangelism.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Charles Lawless: And if we're not reaching lost people, we're not making disciples, i- it's hard to be optimistic.
Mike Glenn: It is. It is. This is Chuck Lawless, and he is, uh, vice president at Southeastern Seminary. He is a good guy. You can find him on the Southeastern website and, uh, a lot of other places.
He is a, a dedicated churchman and a, a, a legitimate theologian, uh, who does [00:28:00] some really, really good work. I'm honored to call you my friend, Chuck. I, I really am, and I thank you for being part of the Engaged Church Network, uh, uh, Podcast today.
Charles Lawless: Thank you, Mike. It's, it's great to, great to talk to you.
Mike Glenn: Always.
Always. Thanks.
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