BeBe Winans Shares How His Small Group Changed Him
In this episode, Mike Glenn sits down with Grammy-winning artist BeBe Winans—not to talk music, but to talk discipleship. BeBe shares how joining a Wednesday morning men’s group changed his life, helped him find real community, and challenged him to grow in accountability, vulnerability, and joy.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I am president and founder of the Engage Church Network, and we are glad you have joined us for, uh, for this podcast. Uh, w- we are especially excited today 'cause my friend BeBe Winans is joining us today, but not for the reason that you might think. Uh, as you know, BeBe Winans is Grammy winner, Dove winner, da, da-da-da-da-da winner.
Da-da-da-da-da. So all, all of those, uh, whatever you wanna- ... whatever you wanna point to on your shelf, BeBe has it. Uh, of course is a, uh, a just, [00:01:00] a phenomenal singer. And uh, one of the funny things about BeBe that you probably don't know is in our small group, and that's what we're gonna talk about, if we get to a particular thing or say a particular phrase, BeBe will break out in song.
And so- ... we've got we've, we're, we're all having to learn- Sometimes ... new songs in this group. Um, uh, several, um, gosh, maybe a year and a half ago or so now, I don't know how long it's been, but it's been a while now. It's been a while. Uh, BeBe and I are talking and, uh, and BeBe is like most men, um, is lonely. Uh, everything on the outside is phenomenal, uh, career, uh, recognition, fan- all of those things that you write down of here are the things I want in my life, BeBe has them, but he is lonely.
So spur of the moment, I say, "Listen, I got a group that meets of, uh, guys at 6:30 tomorrow morning and, uh, why don't you to join us?" So lo and behold, uh, BeBe joins, [00:02:00] uh, a group of eight or nine, uh, white young entrepreneurs. Didn't know. Didn't know. And you and I, you and I are the old guys- Yeah, yeah ... uh, in this room.
So, uh, I, I tell people all the time, "You gotta be in a group. You gotta be in a group." Uh, there's something- Yes ... about discipleship. There's something about obedience. There's something about people there that have your back, uh, that, that keep you, uh, upright in the faith. And, uh, and so that's what we're gonna talk about.
BeBe, tell me about joining the group on Wednesday morning. First of all, I'm glad
BeBe Winans: I didn't dress up. So I wanna outdress you on your show. That's right. So I'm glad I didn't dress up. Um, what was the question?
Mike Glenn: See what I deal with? Uh. This is all the time. This, this happens in Bible study. Um, tell me about- [00:03:00] joining-
BeBe Winans: Joining the group
the Bible study. The Bible group. Well, first of all, because you invited me. It wasn't like it was an invitation. You told me to come. Well,
Mike Glenn: I, I do have that way- And, yeah ...
BeBe Winans: I do have that way
Mike Glenn: about me. Yeah. Yeah.
BeBe Winans: And I've learned to be obedient most of the time. Um, but when I came, I, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it because being in the public eye a lot, I enjoy just being by myself.
Right. I really enjoy being by myself. I understand that. And, and then it's, it, you know, it's, it's dangerous or you have to be brave to share your personal life with people you don't know. Mm-hmm. You know? And because one of the things you try to hold onto is your personal life- Mm-hmm ... when you're in the public eye.[00:04:00]
Um, but after coming, I was just, um, I was surprised at how I felt. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. Um, and it was not just learning more about who Jesus is in a Bible study- Mm-hmm ... 'cause I've been in Bible studies all- Right ... my life. Um, but it was just a connection that I was looking for.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
BeBe Winans: And didn't know that this group that you invited to me, me to come to was going to fulfill some of the things that I needed.
Such as? Such as accountability. Mm-hmm. Um, friendships that go, uh, deeper than just hello, goodbye. Right. You know? When you, when you're with a group of people that really becomes [00:05:00] family, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and as time went on, this group became so much more than just a group of guys. Right. But it became- Mm-hmm
a group of people who care about me. Mm-hmm. And I cared about them. Um, so and then it was laughter, it was fun. Mm-hmm. Those are very important words- Yeah ... in my catalog. Yeah. If I can't laugh, then I don't need to be there. Right. And so that is a medication that we all experience when we come together.
Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, it's fun for me, um, to, to, to be in a situation where, uh, we do serious discipleship work- Mm-hmm But we do it in a, in a fun way. Yeah. Like, the, the night that one of our friends said he needed to pray with his wife and he wanted to do that- Mm-hmm ... but couldn't get started, so we all texted him at 8:00.
Oh. And so he's sitting with his wife and his [00:06:00] phone blows up. Oh. And he has to tell her, "Uh, I, I, we gotta pray now because- We gotta
BeBe Winans: pray. I know I never prayed before, but we gotta pray today. We gotta pray now. It's like I wanted to see how his wife was looking at him. Yeah. Like, what happened to you? Right.
But yes, it's... And, a- and, and, um, you, you learn as... and I've, I've, I've been in that place before when you first start coming. Mm-hmm. But as others have joined, they learn, oh, there's safety here. Right. Right. And when you feel safe, you start telling more of the truth. Mm-hmm. That facade, you can drop that facade.
Because a lot of people, I mean, you know, me and my sister, there was a lot of things, you know, we were raised in the Pentecostal Church, and so there were things we were taught to say without being told to say. Mm-hmm. Such as when someone says, "How you doing?" "I'm blessed of the Lord."
Mike Glenn: That's right.
BeBe Winans: I'm [00:07:00] highly favored.
Mm-hmm. And so one day we were on the road and we were gonna do an interview, and somebody just stopped and said, "Hi, BeBe and CeCe. Hi, CeCe. How are you?" And CeCe said, "Oh, I'm blessed of the Lord." And I remember turning around to her and said, "Can you just say, 'I'm fine'?" Yeah. Then the next person that you meet, I want you to say- There you go
"Oh, I'm doing good." There you go. You know? But you, you realize these are brothers that's going through maybe the same thing I'm going through or something that I went through. Right. And that's the advantage of being old. Right.
Mike Glenn: Right. Like
BeBe Winans: us, you can look at them and say, "Oh, you're gonna be just fine."
You're gonna be
Mike Glenn: fine. That's right.
BeBe Winans: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I tell people all the time, wisdom means I screwed up before you did. Yeah. That's all it means.
BeBe Winans: Remember when I shared the story about my father- Yeah ... when he was at church and this woman came up to him and she was crying. She didn't [00:08:00] know what she's gonna do because the electricity went out.
And my father said, "Oh, girl, you're gonna be fine. Just put your hands out and walk slow."
Don't worry about the darkness. Yeah. Just walk slow and put your- Put your hands out and walk slow. But, but, but you, you, you are relieved because the enemy says you're alone. Mm-hmm. Nobody's gonna understand, so don't tell nobody- Right ... what you're going through. Mm-hmm. But he's a liar. Yeah. And so these group of people now have become a sounding board and have been, um, just people I know- I can say what I need to say.
Mm-hmm. That's freedom there. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, these guys have become really close. You took a bunch of them to the Apollo Theater.
BeBe Winans: Yes. Um, and we all went to dinner. [00:09:00] Yeah. But, um, since I have been with the group... How long now, Alex? I don't, I don't... Yeah, that's what I- Man ... was trying to figure
Mike Glenn: out the other day. It's like- I don't know.
It's, it's been- ... time
BeBe Winans: has passed- Yeah ... so well. So, so long. Um, it's been at least six years, maybe more. Mm. It really has. Um, but, uh, since I joined the group, as I told you and, and them, I thought I, you know, "Okay, God, what's next?" Mm-hmm. "Don't have to sing no more." Mm-hmm. And, uh, then things, something happened.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Oh, I thought we had a deal," but- That's right ... the Lord said, "I didn't give you that." "I didn't tell you that." And so since I've joined the group, there's been so many reluctant yes out of me to go. Mm-hmm. And so one of those was the Apollo Theater. I hadn't sang a concert, especially at the Apollo Theater, for 15 years.
Mm-hmm. And so [00:10:00] told the guys and everybody came. And they, they were all sitting in the balcony, and I acknowledged my brothers. I said, "All my... All the White people in the balcony stand up."
And they stood up. I was cracking up. And give them applause. Yeah. But, um, it's been a great time, and a serious time. Right. You know? Yeah, some of our,
Mike Glenn: some of our friends have had to go through some tough times.
BeBe Winans: Yes. Yes. And it's, it's just rewarding to... You know, 'cause you get texts sometimes afterwards of how, "What you said is helping me to go through what- Right
I'm going through," you know. And that's important, you know, 'cause now what we have to do since you have all this is when, you know, one of us is not present-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
BeBe Winans: we can see each other, [00:11:00] too, and I can call in and y'all can see me running, working out, and doing all that that I-
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You, you guys don't know this, but the group-
met yesterday. Yes. And, uh, and so BeBe is in Dallas. He calls in while he is jogging. In mile five. In mile five and- Yes ... and participates in the group while he completes his workout. But I, but I do think that that says something about how tight that group has become. Oh, yeah. That you don't, you don't miss it.
BeBe Winans: And how important it is. And, uh- And so what, what, what I learned in life, if it's important to you, then you will guard it. Right. If it's important to you, um, you will- Be present. Mm-hmm. You know? And so I think at one, one point in time, I think, you correct me if I'm wrong, I told some of the members, "Look, we got all these vacations and stuff.
Y'all gotta- ... you know, [00:12:00] come together. You going on a golf- Yeah ... thing. Right, yeah. You know, let's, let's make this important. And everyone has really, really stepped up to the plate of this is important to us. Yeah. And it's just good to be around people like that. Right. With the same mind. Mm-hmm. You know?
Mike Glenn: Well, there's, there's a couple of things there.
One, you start going because your brothers need you. Yeah. I, I know I gotta be there to see how BB's doing. I know this is what's going on in his life. I gotta get an update on how he's doing. The other thing is, is sooner or later, and BB, you and I, you and I have lived long enough, everybody gets a turn. Oh, yes.
And, and sooner or later, it is your turn. And, and, and life, life will get you. No matter what. Yeah. Life is gonna get you and so- ... it's just gonna... You're gonna turn around, you're gonna be outgunned and outmanned. And, uh-
BeBe Winans: With Jesus. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. That's what- And, and, yeah ... people don't understand. And just, and, and unless, unless you [00:13:00] got some brothers who will step in there with you.
BeBe Winans: Yes. I think you talked about, but I definitely read about how when, um, Moses was older... No, wait a minute. I'm just thinking. Yes, it was Moses. When they lifted up his arm- Right ... when his arm was too- Yeah ... heavy, he put his arms down, they started losing the battle.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, losing the battle.
BeBe Winans: Mm-hmm. And they, on each side, they held his arms up.
Here and there. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and that's what you need through life. You need somebody to hold you up. Mm-hmm. Especially when you're in a battle. Right. And so God has blessed with this group that I know is holding my arms up, you know- Mm-hmm ... no matter what. That's just a great thing to know.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, that there's a handful of people that you know right now if I call them- Mm-hmm
that, one, they're gonna take the call.
BeBe Winans: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then,
Mike Glenn: two, they're gonna be there if, if I say, "Hey, this is what's going on," they're gonna be there.
BeBe Winans: [00:14:00] And what I enjoy is that we come from different places, from different- Yes ...
Mike Glenn: walks.
BeBe Winans: Mm-hmm. We come from different experiences. Um, we disagree. You know, some of us are independents.
Most of us are Republicans. A sprinkled Democrat. Yeah, yeah. But how you learn it's okay to be different.
Mike Glenn: Right. In fact, I'm counting on that. I'm counting on that difference. That's good.
BeBe Winans: That's good. Well, let me ask you why you say that. It, I think it says something to me that- I'm counting
Mike Glenn: on your perspective.
I'm counting to, to help me see something in a different way. I'm counting on your different experience to, uh, to encourage me in what I'm going through. Right. I'm counting on the, the, the difference. Yeah. [00:15:00] Um, if everybody's just like me with the same story and all of that, then-
BeBe Winans: It's
Mike Glenn: boring ... that, that is a sad song.
That is a sad- It's boring ... sad song.
BeBe Winans: But it's, it's, it's so... If the church could really understand that, um, we would be so better off. Yeah. The walls would just crumble. Yeah. That the enemy loves to set up and keep us separated. Yeah. Um, but I could teach you truly what it means to be a Black man- Mm-hmm ... in the country I live in, and even outside of the country.
Um, I was in, as you said, Dallas. I was in Dallas and, you know, I, I enjoy fashion. I've always enjoyed fashion. So I'm in this store, and I walk in. This, it's an expensive store. And the guy that works at the store said, "Hi." I said, "Hi." "Um, can I help you find..." I said, "No, I'm just walking [00:16:00] around, just looking." And, and he said, "Okay, so I'm gonna walk with you, and anything you want, just let me know, and I'll take it off and put it on the table."
Mm-hmm. And you take... Like, I can't use my hands to-
to get a shirt off the thing- Yeah, yeah ... and look at
Mike Glenn: it?
BeBe Winans: And he followed me. He followed me to the point where I said, "Sir, you have a nice day. I really don't need nothing in here."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
BeBe Winans: Um, but that's my experience, and I'm, I'm charged because of my skin color. Mm-hmm. Now, it's been my skin color all my life.
Mm-hmm. So I'm used to. Um, but to teach others that haven't been through that experience what it means- Mm-hmm ... it gives them more [00:17:00] understanding and more maybe compassion- Right ... of, of what other people go through.
Mike Glenn: Because that, that has not been part of their life. Right. Right. And, and the times that you have talked to us about, hey, this happened, most of the guys in the group didn't believe you.
Right, right.
BeBe Winans: It's
Mike Glenn: like, what? I mean, yeah, that didn't, that, no, that didn't happen No. You're BB. Yeah. That's really one, you know. Um.
BeBe Winans: And it continues- Right ... to, to happen. But, um, I wouldn't change a thing because it's made me who I am. Sure. Right? Sure. And, and taught me that I can love my enemies, I can love those who- Mm-hmm
despitefully use. And you don't do it on your own, but you through it, do, you do that with God's strength and people who lift you up. Right. And
Mike Glenn: who hold you accountable.
BeBe Winans: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Say, "You don't have a choice here, BB." [00:18:00]
BeBe Winans: Right.
Mike Glenn: Right. This is, this is what God told us to do. And for you- ... to say, "I was, I was a, a Black man in this situation, and I learned to pray for and love this f- this now friend- Mm-hmm
who at one time had, had, uh- Right ... racially profiled me" or- Yes ... something like that. Yes. Then that helps us understand, hey, BB's learned how to do it, we can learn how to do it. And, and, and, and so let's get- Yes ... one, one of the, one of the most fun mornings we had was when all the guys had to write a song.
Remember that morning? Uh- What's our keyword? ... we w- we were going through the Psalm and everybody, everybody was praising and all this, and I said, "Guys, we don't praise enough, so next week bring me four- That was our homework- We have a homework ... that you gave us ... bring, bring me four lines of your song.
BeBe Winans: As you know, I didn't even have to break a sweat. No, no. But it was- But one or two of them were just- It was great. It was, it was, it was great because it was... And this is what you challenge us all the [00:19:00] time, to come out of the comfort zone. Yeah. You know, we have learned, we as the church, we have learned to live in our comfort zone, and it's a frightening experience.
So I know all them guys went home-
Mike Glenn: Breaking a sweat.
BeBe Winans: I know they wanted to call me and say, "Could you send me some help?" Yeah, engineers- No. Yeah. ...
Mike Glenn: home builders, you know, computer nerds- Oh ... all out here trying to get four words to rhyme.
BeBe Winans: Oh, that was great. That was great. And there is one in there who's, who's smarter than all of us.
Yeah. And it's like, oh. And he's always writing. Yeah. I think one day I came in, I said, "I'm just bringing this. I'm not really gonna write anything." "But I'm tired of you looking like you're smarter than me."
It's those moments that I know for me [00:20:00] causes me to not want to miss. Right. And I know we can maybe see each other or call each other on the phone, but the experience of being together- Mm-hmm ... outweighs anything that you can do-
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Okay, BB. You, you are BB Winans.
BeBe Winans: Yes. And, uh- I'm Benjamin ...
Mike Glenn: and Be- and, uh, Benjamin.
Yes. Um, uh, you, you have what a lot of us want. Uh, what a lot of our people want. They want the platform, we want that. And but, but yet, so tell me and tell our friends why they should be in a group.
BeBe Winans: Oh, man. So it's funny because it's a platform that I ran from. Mm-hmm. You know, I was born into this family that God had his hand on.
It didn't start with me. Mm-hmm. It started with my father, it started with his grandfather, who founded the church and built the church in, in [00:21:00] Detroit, Michigan. And, and so to, to, to some degree I wanted to, I wanted to run away from the responsibility that was placed on me. Um, and then you just grow up, right?
Mm-hmm. And then God just brings you to a place, uh, where he's given you a platform, but you understand there's a responsibility that comes with it. Mm-hmm. Um, so those who are, are seeking for a platform, one of the things I always say to artists or anyone who wants to be in front of people is that your, your desire, there's nothing wrong with the desire to, to have a platform.
But make sure it's where you're supposed to be. Mm-hmm. Because what people don't understand, if you're a criminal-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... [00:22:00]
BeBe Winans: and you get a platform, you're a platform criminal. And a lot more people gonna know- Yeah ... you're a criminal. That's right. So you really want God to prepare you for the platform. Mm-hmm.
Um, w- you know, singing all my life, my father used to tell us, "You're not gonna be the greatest singers. Y'all not the greatest singers in the world." He said, "But you are gonna be the most confident singers in the world."
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
BeBe Winans: So, so understand the responsibility. Become confident, because the last thing you wanna do is be on stage and look uncomfortable- Right
and look unprepared. It's gonna turn people off. Mm-hmm. And so, and do, to, most important, to be patient. Gosh. Hmm. I learned such a value in being [00:23:00] patient. Because there's things as BB Winans still wants to do, right? Um, but all that I said- It is so important that you are in a group of brothers or sisters that can challenge you and can sharpen you And keep you grounded
keep you grounded. Mm-hmm. And that's the thing about having a big family.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
BeBe Winans: If you could grow up in my family- ... you could handle anything else that was co-
Mike Glenn: Nobody else, right? No matter what anyone else
BeBe Winans: says. You talk about grounded. We could keep you grounded. Uh. But people change. Yeah. It's not so much that you change with the platform.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
BeBe Winans: People change around you. Right. And you have to understand how to handle that. Mm-hmm. That can be hard.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, I tell you, bud, having you in my life-
BeBe Winans: Oh ... brings
Mike Glenn: me a lot of joy and a, and a lot of fun and- Do you remember
BeBe Winans: [00:24:00] where, how we met?
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
BeBe Winans: That was a g- a wonderful day in the gym. That's why it's important to go to the gym.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, that's right. I met you in
BeBe Winans: the gym. I was like, wait a minute. You're, you're pastor of... I come there sometimes.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
BeBe Winans: Um, and then I told everybody, "Oh, yeah, Pastor, Pastor Mike goes to, you know, this gym. He doesn't lift weights." No. "But he, he goes. He has a trainer." I have a trainer. "But they just have a conversation."
Yeah, yeah, we-
Mike Glenn: All right. We gotta get out of here now on that. Uh, where- wherever you are, whatever you're doing, you've got to be in a group of brothers- Yes ... brothers and sisters who hold you up and who hold you accountable. Life is hard, and sooner or later it will get you, and you won't make it unless you've got a group around you.
And I pray God will lead you to that group soon if you're not already there. This is B.B. Winans. I am Mike [00:25:00] Glenn, president and founder of the Engage Church Network. Thanks for being part of our podcast today.
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