Yancy On Why Kids Ministry Matters
What if your children’s ministry could shape a generation of worshipers? In this episode, Mike Glenn sits down with worship leader, songwriter, and author Yancy Richmond to explore the power of discipling kids through worship. They discuss her book Sweet Sound, why worship isn’t just for adults, and how music forms the spiritual lives of our children.
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Yancy Wideman Richmond: Oh, these aren't just songs. These aren't just minutes to fill. This isn't just a routine or something that happens when they're in Sunday school or their children's ministry program. There's power when kids open their mouth and sing and declare the greatness of God.
Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, the president and founder of the Engage Church Network, and we exist for the churches and congregations throughout the greater Middle Tennessee area. We wanna talk about those things that matter to you and to your local ministry. So today, we are honored to have my friend, Yancey Richmond.
And [00:01:00] you know Yancey from her experience of, as a child worship leader. It's, it's not a child, children's worship leader, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Is that the more official title there? Uh, I was laughing with Yancey before we started that w- we didn't know which, uh, podcast we were gonna do. She is so talented and so successful in so many areas.
She is a successful author, a successful songwriter, a successful performer, has been on stage with some of the most, um, uh, famous people that you will know. Throw out a couple of names, and Yancey has probably been in, in, on stage with them or singing background with them, uh, on the road with them. Uh, lately she has started a new podcast that we're gonna talk to you about in a little bit called Stained Glass Kids.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and it's about what she's finding out, uh, from her experience as a PK, preacher's kid, and what she's finding out from the other PKs around in her conversations. Uh, but today let's, let's talk about [00:02:00] how, uh, the, the thing that got you here first- Yeah ... which was leading children's worship. Now you're kind of, you're kind of passionate about this.
Yeah. And, and I don't say that to be funny, but for a lot of us, children's worship is something we send the kids to so the grownups can listen to the sermon.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: You got a different view of that, right? Yeah,
Yancy Wideman Richmond: yeah. Well, I remember the day that I came across a scripture in the Bible that completely just changed and opened my eyes- Mm-hmm
to understand the power that's in a child's worship. Psalm 8:1-2, in the Message translation, it says, "God, brilliant Lord, yours is a household name. Nursing infants gurgle curses about you, and toddlers shout the songs that drown out enemy talk and silence atheist babble." Hmm. Wow. And I remember reading it, and it was kinda one of those moments where you come across a scripture and you think, "Did that just say what I think it said?"
Right. Yeah. Like, let's read that again. Let's ponder it. And I think that was the eye-opening moment for me to realize, oh, these aren't [00:03:00] just songs. These aren't just minutes to fill. This isn't just a, a routine or something that happens when they're in Sunday school or their children's ministry program.
There's power when kids open their mouth and sing and declare the greatness of God, and, you know, even into the, um, Palm Sunday story, you know, we know- Right. Yeah, mm-hmm ... children are shouting, "Hosanna" and once, later that same chapter, Jesus is at the temple, and we've heard that verse f- before where, you know, religious leaders are questioning Jesus on- Mm-hmm
the hosannas from the children, and it says right there and there, when you look at the footnotes, Jesus quotes that verse in Psalm 8:1-2 when he says, "Haven't you ever read, 'From the lips of children- Mm-hmm ... you, Lord, have called for your praise?'" And so I believe there's power in it. I believe it's something that as church leaders, as pastors, as ministry directors, we need to take seriously, creating space and being intentional in the moments that we have where children are gathered to just help them, [00:04:00] uh, learn to experience the presence of Jesus, learn how to communicate to him through their worship, and it's just something that should be a part of every single children's ministry program in our churches.
Okay. Because Jesus highlighted it- Yeah ... on his way to the cross, and I feel like we should take that more seriously. Well, I, well, I'll
Mike Glenn: tell you, one of the most meaningful moments that I have had recently in my own life was driving down the road, and my grandson, who's four-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: telling me what song he wanted to listen to.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm. "
Mike Glenn: Do You Know the House of the Lord," Big Mike. Yeah, I got it.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Play that. And to listen to him sing-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: well, that, I, you know, that's one of those moments where you tell Jesus, "I'm good. I'm good." Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm- It's the best ... I, I, I am good. So, uh, I'm sitting at home, pastor of a church, a father of a family.
Mm-hmm. And you have just told me I need to help my children worship.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah
Mike Glenn: O- okay. I, and you know, my, my whole thing as a dad in worship is to keep them still.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Uh-huh.
Mike Glenn: So they don't [00:05:00]
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: so they don't bother the o- other people on the pew.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, there's a, a few ways to look at it. I think as a parent- Mm-hmm
it's being intentional of what you push play on in your car. So, you know, instead of just waiting for them to ask for that song that- Right ... you would want them to be singing, intentionally turning the radio to those kind of stations, or pushing play on a playlist- Mm-hmm ... that is filled with songs that are gonna be the kinds of things you wanna put on their lips, the things that you want to get planted deep down inside of them.
'Cause music is one of the most powerful things- Right ... that we have. It's one of the most amazing tools we have. And so just being intentional in that area, what you push play on, um, as you're driving to school, driving to soccer practice, doing all the normal parts of life, but just letting that soundtrack be something that's gonna, um, help, you know, prompt your kids to sing along and actually be having praise be on their lips.
And I think from a church perspective, it's very similar. It's what are those messages that you want to be on their lips? And instead of [00:06:00] just thinking, "Okay, we're gonna plan a few songs to sing in our children's ministry program," and just looking at them as slots to fill, no, how can you reinforce things that you're teaching, you know?
Mm-hmm. What are the messages that you think, "Wow, this song is really special to our congregation, so let's make some space and, and create moments even within our children's ministry program to lead kids, uh, to put these kinds of messages on their lips and just help them." Uh, really, it's giving them the space as well as teaching them a little bit of what worship is about.
I've led worship for a lot of ages. Mm-hmm. And I will ... I, I stand by the fact that I think kids are the easiest age group to lead in worship. Um, but still there's ministry contexts sometimes where they just need a little bit of- Encouragement and all that, yeah ... knowledge and, and understanding. And so it's highlighting a scripture from Psalm.
It's, it's helping them understand this is why we're clapping our hands. This is why we're lifting our hands. This is why we're, you know, in a posture that's more reverent. This is- Mm-hmm ... you know, why we're in a [00:07:00] more of a celebration thing. And it's just giving people understanding. Um, you know, one of those scriptures that we know gets talked a lot about in, in church vision and growth is, uh, people perish for a lack of knowledge, right?
We've heard that talked about, but I think the same thing can be true in the life of any believer when they don't understand the power that's in their worship- Right ... and how important their offering and their sacrifice of praise is.
Mike Glenn: Well, Paul and Silas brought down a prison-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: I know ... with,
Mike Glenn: with, with worship.
Yeah. That's, uh ... You know, I, I'm listening to you talk about h- being intentional with children and c- creating space, and I'm thinking about all of the things that I have been reading about the power and the influence of social media-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: whose producers and all are targeting our kids. Right Uh, to, to get these kind of memes-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm
into
Mike Glenn: their heads and then into their hearts-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: that then becomes the behavior and the character of [00:08:00] who they are.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Right.
Mike Glenn: So what you're saying is, we as parents, we as church leaders need to be as intentional-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: as the social media producers are in getting into the hearts and minds o- of our children-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah
through
Mike Glenn: intentional age-appropriate practices.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Well, i- o- on the flip side, uh, we know how powerful it is, these memes are, in the lives of our children.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So by the, if we can release the p- power of praise-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Right. Right ...
Mike Glenn: then it would make sense, uh, that what is ... So how do you get started?
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Well, I wrote a book all about this. Um- Just happened to write a written book. So I, I did, I did write a book. Uh, um, it's called Sweet Sound: The Power of Discipling Kids in Worship. Mm-hmm. And so h- I would start there. Okay. 'Cause that's me, uh, sharing my heart on this subject and just the things that I've learned from God's word, um, both kind of from just what the Bible says about it, but then the last third of the book is very practical and gets in specifically of [00:09:00] just- Good
how to create worship sets, how to introduce new songs, preschool worship specifically, just a lot of different things to help you do it practically. And so yeah, r- uh- A lot of
Mike Glenn: times people will leave church going, "Yeah, I k- I know I need to do that, but how?"
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: What, what are, what are the next three steps-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Right
Mike Glenn: uh, for me to do? Okay. We've talked, uh, about the, the kids in worship. You grew up- A kid who was worshiping.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: You grew up as a PK, as they call it. Yeah, yeah. Preacher's kid.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, how did that become an area of passion for you? Because I want us to start talking about your podcast-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Mm-hmm ... and
Mike Glenn: what you're learning with Stained Glass Kids- Right, right
and, and that kind of thing.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah, so, you know, I've been... My, my dad's been in ministry my whole life, and so church and the business of church and, and ministry happening is something that- For the
Mike Glenn: folks who don't know- Yeah ... tell them who your dad is. I always- Yeah,
Yancy Wideman Richmond: so his name is Jim Weidman. He's been in the children's ministry, you know, what we would now call next gen space- Right
um, for [00:10:00] nearly 50 years. But he was one of the first ones to do it. Yeah, yeah. He would, he would've been one of the original children's pastors out there. Right. You know, had a Christian education degree and, um, just has always focused on kids and families. Was he the first one to
Mike Glenn: bring puppets in-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: I don't-
to the- I mean, I don't know if he was the first one, but I mean, he got started in the '70s, so it, it was a- Yeah ... real small group of people- Yeah ... way back then doing it. But if he wasn't the first
Mike Glenn: one, he, he certainly became the top one.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, I, I know you're sitting at home going, "Well, puppets?" I mean, yeah.
Listen, in the early '70s, that was cutting edge. Yeah, yeah. That was, that was right there. All the
Yancy Wideman Richmond: things. Yep. Yeah, so just had, you know, grown up aro- around church and, and you know, I specifically had felt called to do music, and that's what I've spent the last 28 years of my life being focused on. And I would say, I don't know, probably in the last five years or so, um, God just kinda was highlighting to me pastor's kids, you know?
And it would be one of those things I w- I would sense in my [00:11:00] spirit and just kinda think like, "Okay God, like, what do you want me to do with that?" Like, obviously I know I can pray for them, but I, I don't know what. And so, um, that's just kinda where, where this was for a handful of years and had the opportunity to do a session with my dad at a few conferences just talking about, you know, raising, raising kids in ministry.
Um, was on a panel at a conference probably about a year and a half ago and got done with that panel where we were talking about ministry and family balance and s- you know, several people were talking. And I remember walking back, um, to the resource center where I had a booth set up, uh, and just thinking there should be a podcast where we talk about some things that we don't normally talk about in church staff life and culture.
Because, you know, as a ministry kid, I know that there's oftentimes things that you experience in, in the business and in the- Right ... work of doing [00:12:00] ministry that, you know, sometimes you're going through hard stuff, and it's like, I haven't come across that blog post. I haven't come across that article in a magazine.
Don't really know where to turn when I'm walking through some of these issues firsthand. And so I thought, you know, so- somebody should do a podcast where they- talk about some of the stuff that just nobody actually talks about. Kind of thought like, that's a great idea, but I'm, I'm busy doing this kids worship thing.
Right. You know? Like I've got my own things to do. Kind of brushed it aside. Yeah. Texted it to a friend. Wow. But really blew it off and thought not a whole lot more about it. Yeah, but it's
Mike Glenn: interesting. It's interesting that your, your, your focus, your whole ministry had been on children. Mm-hmm. And you had not thought about the children who had grown up, who had grown up with you.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Right. Right. Yeah. So, you know, fast-forward a few more months and just was kind of in a meeting that I thought was gonna be about something totally different, and somewhere in there I spotted off that idea. And [00:13:00] my dad was with me in that meeting, and he brought ... He's like, "Well, you've had a heart for pastor's kids."
And it was like when I sandwiched those two things together and realized ... I think previously I'd been thinking like, "Well, I don't know what my 10 points about being- Right ... a PK are. Like, I don't know what I wanna go talk to church leaders about and specifically about this. But when I realized it's not me having all the answers, it's just h- me facilitating conversations- Oh, give me a
Mike Glenn: safe place to unpack my stuff
with
Yancy Wideman Richmond: people that are- Yeah ... pastor's kids. Mm-hmm. You know, missionaries' kids, worship leaders' kids, you know, like all- Mm-hmm ... all the things. You know, there's more to that than just like a- Sure ... senior pastor's family in a church. And, you know, so far I've had the opportunity, um, in the podcast to talk with, uh, people of all ages.
I've talked to a 17-year-old who's a senior in high school, and I've talked to a pastor's kid who was 62 years old, and everything in between. And, uh, what I'm learning is like, you [00:14:00] know, these people actually have a lot of wisdom.
Mike Glenn: So what are you learning?
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Well, I'm learning all kinds of things. I think, you know, uh, some of it is just the little places that ministry really was overlooked in their life.
So it might be like discipleship opportunities that were missed because of what their last name was, or who related to them was on payroll. Maybe a student ministry pastor just wasn't as intentional in some of the discipleship that happened. Maybe the children's minister didn't invite that child to some of the special programming, special events that were happening at the church in the same way that they might would've picked up the phone, sent an extra postcard to some- Right
somebody else. A lot of just like, "Oh, they'll be there," or, "They're okay." But really some missed opportunities where people didn't take advantage of really [00:15:00] Being as intentional with discipleship and really treating them like any other kid in that children's ministry or in that student ministry. Because I am the pastor's son
Mike Glenn: or the pastor's
Yancy Wideman Richmond: daughter.
Right. Right. They just assume, like, they'll be there. Then somebody who
Mike Glenn: works for my dad- Mm-hmm ... is not going to be as, as, uh, intentional with me. Yeah.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: So I think that, that's one thing that I've heard. You know, obviously, so many people talk about the magnifying glass, the glass house, the fishbowl. Like, there's a lot of different ways to, uh, to look at that and, and people are certainly aware of that.
But I think, um, it's, it's been such a wide variety of things. I think sometimes it's seeing when there is some sort of issue, you know, some sort of dramatic situation that might change someone's employment or, you know, change something. Um, talking through just what some of those transitions looked like, the honesty of what was communicated to the public in those transitions.[00:16:00]
Um, I think, uh, some of it is just, um... What do I wanna say about this? I think just how a family was treated maybe in a time that they needed a little bit of help. Maybe they needed some counseling. Maybe they actually needed some pastoral care. And sometimes that- Just regular,
Mike Glenn: routine pastoral care ... is normal kind of stuff Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: But yet, due to whatever situation, the door is closed and they're pretty much, you know, in- Ostracized ... in one single Sunday. Right. They lost their social group, they lost their church family, they lost the way their family was provided and taken care of, all those things in one place, and I think that is very jarring, you know?
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, I have experienced some of that because I have recently stepped down as, as a senior pastor- Mm-hmm ... at Brentwood for after 32 years. Right. And you go from going 100 miles an hour one day to nobody needing [00:17:00] you or expecting you anywhere the next day. Yeah. And, and that was under the best of circumstances.
Right. Right. But it was still a kick.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah. Uh. It's a shock to the system.
Mike Glenn: Yeah,
Yancy Wideman Richmond: yeah. And I, I think even, you know, in different ministry contexts is sometimes in your little sphere of churches- Mm-hmm ... your church group, whether that's a denominational thing, a regional thing, whether it's national, whether, you know, it's more local, in your little world- You, your parent, your church can feel like such a big deal.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: And you think the whole world- ... is hinging on this. And then you move into a new season, you get a few steps removed- Yeah ... and you realize, like, "Oh, most people actually know nothing about this church." That's right. And- They have no idea who my parent is. Mm-hmm. You know, they have no idea who I am.
And I think that can be very much a culture shock and jarring thing for some of these ministry kids [00:18:00] when you go from thinking, like, "I'm the center of everyone's attention," to realizing nobody knows who we are.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. We, we had, we had twin boys, and for a long time they thought they were the center of the world.
Yeah. 'Cause everywhere they went, people would-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Knew who they were ... knew who they were-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... and would focus on them, so.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah. A, a handful of years ago, I guess probably about 10 years ago now, my sister had, um, started visiting a new church, and she was, you know, griping about how hard it was to meet people.
And, and all of these things, and I just remember telling her, I'm like, "Remember, this is the first time you've ever gone to a church and someone didn't know who you were- Yeah ... and wasn't already aware of at least a handful of facts about you- Right ... to engage in conversation with you." And I was like, "This is the stories that you hear about- About how-
from normal people" It
Mike Glenn: is, right. Yeah. Where they start- Welcome to normal, huh? ... trying
Yancy Wideman Richmond: to go to a church- Yeah ... and, you know, it's just a struggle to, to make those relationships.
Mike Glenn: Yancey, we [00:19:00] have a lot of pastors who are watching us right now who are constantly trying to get this work/life balance thing- Mm-hmm
and how much the church needs and how much... Uh, help them think through how they take care of the spiritual life- Yeah ... emotional life of their children.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Yeah. I think, you know, from what I've heard on the podcast, I think one of the biggest factors is be the same person at home that you are in the pulpit.
Uh, you know, I've talked with ministry leaders that can say, or ministry kids that can say, "Hey, my dad was the same person at the church that he was at home in the time with our family." I've had other conversations with other pastor's kids that are like, "Who Dad was on Sunday, who Dad was in the pulpit, was not the same man that I knew- Hmm.
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Yancy Wideman Richmond: in our home." And I think that is probably the most important thing you could do. You know, we c- we could [00:20:00] probably- Authenticity and the consistency. Right ... sit here and discuss about- Right ... how many hours you should work, how many nights a week you should be at home. Like, you know, we could all talk about that and probably everybody have different opinions.
But I think if there was one thing that I would plead with those that are listening and watching to do is be the same Christ follower on Sunday morning- In the pulpit, on stage that you are to your family, sitting around the dinner table, let them see you be the same level of passion and love for Jesus.
Mike Glenn: Hmm. It's a good word. How can folks find you? YanceyRichmond.com?
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Uh, not exactly. So you can go to stainedglasskids.com- Okay ... to learn all about the podcast and listen, you know, obviously all the normal places- Okay ... of Apple and Spotify and all of that. Would love for you to listen. It's weekly interviews with a different PK, different ministry kid, and just a, a different story of [00:21:00] what their experience was.
So much we can learn from. I think, um, there's a few things, too. I want PKs to feel seen in a way that maybe they haven't been, of just kind of like, "Where's my group? Where's my people? Where are the other people that, you know, oh, that's happened to them, too. I thought it was just me." On the flip side, I feel like I'm handing over on a silver platter to pastors, current executive pastors, church leadership, these conversations that we can learn from and grow from- And build off of, yeah
to have healthier church staff systems, healthier church families, so that we see more PKs, more ministry kids grow up and love Jesus with all their heart. That's the goal. So stainedglasskids.com. If you wanna learn more about, you know, the kids music stuff, you can go to yanceyministries.com. Yancey Ministries.
Yeah, yeah. That's
Mike Glenn: the one I was on. And then on-
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Okay ... Instagram, Facebook. All right. Both those things as well.
Mike Glenn: Okay. [00:22:00] Thanks for being here.
Yancy Wideman Richmond: Thank you for having me.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. This has been, uh, the podcast of the Engaged Church Network. I'm Mike Glenn. This is Yancey Richmond, and we are very glad you joined us today.
Thanks for tuning into the Engaged Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagedchurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
