Being a Resilient Leader: Corporate vs. Spiritual Leadership
In this episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with renowned author, speaker, and leadership consultant Stephen Mansfield for a compelling discussion on leadership in the church and beyond.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I'm the president of the Engage Church Network, and we are glad you have joined us for this podcast. Our guest today is author, writer, professor, teacher, consultant, a man of a lot of different hats, but basically he is one of my very good friends. Steven Mansfield is with us today.
You would know him from, uh, the, the, The Faith of Obama and- George W. Bush ... George W. Bush, and on and on, on and on the list goes. And what was the one on, on, uh, Guinness? Search For God at Guinness. Yes, Search, The Search For God at Guinness, which is my favor- which is actually an, uh, a really, really good book, uh, about the social responsibility of a corporation and the difference that, uh, Guinness was able to make in their community.
It's good stuff. He is, uh, has been a pastor, has been, uh, a, a lot of [00:01:00] things which means he has a lot of experience. Now, he walks around and talks to a whole lot of important people about issues of leadership and strategies and, and, and these kind of things. So we're gonna, we're gonna sit him down here a little bit with us and talk about the issue of leadership, what leadership is, what are the essentials of leadership, and how the difference between corporate leadership and spiritual leadership actually works out in day to day.
'Cause a lot of what we're told as pastors is corporate based. Somebody goes to a conference and brings us a book, somebody... And it's all well-meaning, and a lot of it is good, but it doesn't necessarily translate, uh, point to point from what is happening in corporate life to what is, uh, happening in church life.
So we're gonna do all of that, and who knows, knowing the two of us, we'll probably have a couple of- ... of rabbit chasing sessions, but, but, but it all be good, so hang on with us. So Steven, welcome.
Stephen Mansfield: [00:02:00] Thank you.
Mike Glenn: Uh, glad you're here.
Stephen Mansfield: Thank you. Keep introducing me. Yes. I enjoyed that. That
Mike Glenn: was fun. So, um, uh, so let- let's, let's start with an easy question.
What is leadership?
Stephen Mansfield: Leadership, I think at its most fundamental, is someone attaching gift to goal. That's easy for us to remember, two Gs. Mm-hmm. If you're running a hamburger stand, if you're running library, you're running any- pretty much anything, your goal is to establish goals and attach people's gifts to them-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Stephen Mansfield: at a fundamental level. Now, a smart leader is gonna think about context, gonna think about inspiration, gonna think about all those things. Mm-hmm. But at its, at its heart, whether you're on a football team or a bagel shop, you're trying to attach people's gifts to goals that, that the leader has set or has been handed to the leader.
Mm-hmm. That's, that's my boiled down version, and that gets us started.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Now, if I want to be a leader, regardless of the arena or the context, what are the essentials [00:03:00] that, uh, that, that, that you would look for in assessing a leader? He's, he- he or she has to have these three to five, whatever the number is, things, and if they don't have them, then I know they're not gonna be a leader.
Stephen Mansfield: Uh, absolutely essential and missing from a lot of leaders is the ability to envision what's not yet. I don't want ... I don't, I don't know if we can put this in ex- in exact language or in more biblical categor- categories if that's where we wanna go, but, but it ... You have it, I have it. We know that we have it.
We see it. We know it when we see it. Mm-hmm. It's the ability to look at a situation, say what's gotta happen, to fit a context, to move forward towards goals. You can see what's not yet. You can envision. You have enough knowledge, experience, perspective, uh, awareness of history, awareness of human nature that you go, "If we're gonna get where we wanna go, we're gonna have to do the following things."
Mm-hmm. These things are missing. These things are missing on my staff. They're missing in the outreach of the organization. They're mitch- missing in sales. Mm-hmm. They're missing in the recipe of our bagels, whatever it is. Envisioning what is not yet is absolutely essential. Then [00:04:00] second of all, uh, the ability to communicate.
We just, we underestimate that a great deal, and you know that that's one of the things my firm does in DC-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Stephen Mansfield: is that we help people communicate better because the inability to, call it what you will, be articulate, be clear- Mm-hmm ... light people up when you speak, however you wanna express it, that basic inability.
And by the way, some people are good communicators of one kind but not another.
Mike Glenn: Right. Write well but don't speak well.
Stephen Mansfield: Or, or if I be a little bit more pointed for a moment- Mm ... I, I often sit, uh, in DC in the office with the senator- Mm-hmm ... and a pastor's trying to talk to them, but he's still in church- Yeah.
I mean, in his head. You know what I'm ... Now, I don't mean to be insulting. I'm a, I'm a church guy. Uh, but he's in church, and this senator is not, not understanding what's going on. Yeah. Right. He doesn't know why suddenly he went into this power mode- Mm-hmm ... you know, this, this close of sermon mode, um, when we're sitting there talking over a desk.
So it's not just good or bad communication, it's appropriate communication- Right ... pulling out the right tools at the right time. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And just because you said it doesn't mean they heard it
Stephen Mansfield: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. [00:05:00] And, and quite frankly, people who are used to speaking from the stage are not used to take- uh, to reading the cues as to whether people are actually listening, right?
Right. I mean, you and I have both spoken on stages- Mm-hmm ... in front of thousands and thousands, and, and, uh, I, I, I can't pay attention to if that scratch of the nose in this third row- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... is distraction or interest- Right, right, right. Yeah ... or the guy shifted forward. Is he just uncomfortable- ... 'cause he's been sitting there for three hours?
Or what's going on? So often people who speak on stage are not that good at speaking, uh- Right ... to, to power- Mm-hmm ... to put it broadly, like we do today. The, the, the next thing would be the ability to draw out an individual soul. I'm sitting with you. We've just met. I begin to circle in on who you are, what lights your jets, what maybe you're made for.
Mm-hmm. We can call it destiny. We can call it spiritual gift. Mm-hmm. We can call it whatever we want, all the inventory te- tests we all know. Um, but do I have the ability to sit and talk to you over a hamburger, and by the time that's over, I've drawn you closer to my goal, closer to who you're made [00:06:00] to be.
Mm-hmm. I've lit some fires in you so that you wanna step up and be more of who you are. That dynamic is essential. Churchill had it. Wesley had it. Mm-hmm. You know, other great leaders have had it, but it's rare in our generation, and a lot of that has to do with screens. A lot of that has to do with communication not being, um, inter- more interpersonal like we're doing right now- Mm-hmm
where I can just say, "Well, now Michael," Yeah ... "why did you derail back in the day?" Mm-hmm. That kind of thing.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: Um, so those are some of the ones I'd start with.
Mike Glenn: Okay. What is the difference, uh, between corporate leadership and spiritual leadership? 'Cause th- there are a lot of times, Steven, where some, uh, uh, CEO in my congregation or a powerful person in my congregation say, "Well, why don't you just?"
Stephen Mansfield: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Like, like I can go off and make a decision, and I have that kind of authority and power, and I don't.
Stephen Mansfield: Right.
Mike Glenn: Right. Uh, I've gotta have a board vote or a congregational vote or something like that. I don't have the power to influence the way [00:07:00] that a, that a leader in the corporate world would. So what, what are the essence of, of differences there?
Stephen Mansfield: Well, at, at, in terms of dealing with people, the main difference is that we ha- we have a disciple-making call, function, and purpose in our Christian leadership or spiritual leadership that we don't have in corporate leadership, and that's important.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: Because we're not just using people and, and chucking them out the back door when we're done with them, when we've used them up.
Uh, we have a whole spiritual formation obligation. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So with- Okay ... with your, with your assembly- All
Mike Glenn: right. I love, I love what you're saying here. Sure. And I think this is important.
Stephen Mansfield: Sure.
Mike Glenn: My leadership in the local church is always done in the context of making disciples.
Stephen Mansfield: There's no question about it, and that does bleed over- Yeah
into who, how you deal with your employees.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: Uh, your secretary is not just your secretary. She may be a church member- Mm-hmm ... but she's at least a believer sitting there at your front desk. Right. And you can't just treat her the way the corporate CEO does, um, even if you're fabulously generous and, and- Mm-hmm
ca- and play golf with her husband. Mm-hmm. You still gotta, you got a spiritual [00:08:00] formation obligation. She walks in in tears. You know that there's a, a, a, a ... She's been embittered by something that's happened with her grandchild, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. You've gotta, you've gotta ... You're obligated to those things.
If you're smart, you're making sure that you're checking on how she's doing in the Word and are, are you getting time away? Mm-hmm. And all the, all the ... Suddenly we become concerned about spiritual formation, whereas in corporate America, it's basically, "I'm gonna pay you a boatload of money, and you better perform."
Right. 'Cause I got nine others standing in line for your job.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: And even if the person's kind, that's still the contract.
Mike Glenn: And end of the day, we gotta have this goal accomplished. I don't care what it
Stephen Mansfield: costs. Exactly. Right. Exactly. So at a personal level, there's that. The problem in churches, and I say that again as a church guy, um, is the same thing that's a problem in a university or in the military.
Uh, and this is what distinguishes us a lot from corporate world. Corporate world is filled with a lot of entrepreneurs Who are being entrepreneurs as far as they can be- Mm-hmm ... given the obligations they have to deal with. But that kind of entrepreneurial, let's be creative, let's bust through the barriers, let's, let's do it in [00:09:00] new ways-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Stephen Mansfield: that's, that's checked by a university context. Mm-hmm. That's checked by the military, and it's checked by most churches. You know- Mm-hmm ... the humorous seven last words of the church are, "We've never done it that way before," right? Never. So, uh, I don't mean to be negative about it, but you're exactly right. You, you, you're pastor for years.
You got an obligation to the people. You got an obligation to the board. You got an obligation to banks maybe. Mm-hmm. I don't know. You got an obligation to... You got a lot of obligations, whereas the high-level CEOs I've worked with are, are, especially if they're the founders, which is a lot of the guys I end up working with- Mm-hmm
man, they blow this thing up and rebuild it tomorrow. Right. They, they... You don't have to get, you don't have to get anybody's permission. Mm-hmm. As long as they don't kill anybody and blow the bank, you know, life's good. And so there's a greater freedom There, there can be, there can be less concern for people, individuals.
You can leave burnt out shells in your wake- Mm-hmm ... which, which, which, which we should not do and, and, uh, ought not do, uh, as pastors, not if we're smart. So I think, I think those are, those are the main differences. I, I, and I, and I, I'm [00:10:00] really glad you started this this way because I think it's a mistake for us to think that corporate leadership can translate unchecked into the church.
Let's learn the technique. Let's use the same technology. Yeah, there, there's a lot of
Mike Glenn: stuff that we can, that,
Stephen Mansfield: that's good stuff Let's learn how to speak better. Right. Let's learn from Steve Jobs about creativity- Mm-hmm ... and art for heaven's sakes. Let's, let's put a Starbucks in the lobby. What- All this, all this stuff, right?
You know, let's have massage chairs for the, for the, you know, whatever- ... the children's workers. I mean, I'm all for this, the learning from Microsoft and Apple and Google and all that kind of thing, but that style of leadership will not produce the spiritual goals we're trying to achieve- Right ... and the church is number one.
Mm-hmm. And it's gonna tick everybody off, and you'll spend most of your time trying to re- repair relationships.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, the famous stories of Steve Jobs throwing the iPhone at, at his designers and that kind of stuff. That-
Stephen Mansfield: Yeah, try that. Try that at- Yeah. Try that at First Baptist Jacksonville or whatever, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah. That's not gonna work. That,
Mike Glenn: that won't work.
Stephen Mansfield: That's not gonna work. Mm-hmm. And, and, and, and by the way, that kind of, um, bad boy behavior is actually prized in corporate world.
Mike Glenn: Right. [00:11:00]
Stephen Mansfield: And it's, it's, it's almost sinful level, not, not just because of the context, but because as Christians, you know- Mm-hmm ... me, me throwing a, my iPhone at my secretary- Mm-hmm
should get me fired, by the way. Right. But, but for Steve Jobs to step into a, a room and say, "You're all fired."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: Uh, please clean out your desks by lunch. Well, that, that, the way that we operate in more church world, that's gonna rankle, that's gonna move out through our denominations or through our church networks and throughout the church body, and you'll be, you'll be gone within a week.
Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's something we ought to be wise about. It's just not achieving our goals, and I, I think we've got to ... I want, I want every pastor to read Good to Great. Mm-hmm. I want every pastor to read a Steve, a Steve Jobs bio. Right, biography, yeah. I just don't want them to think that they can model themselves after that i- per- perfectly.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, a- and, and that context of, of I'm responsible for, uh, the people I lead and their discipleship, that even after a meeting, even, even if it's a meeting where, where they're not measuring up to something as, as a, a [00:12:00] staff appraisal meeting or something like that- Right ... uh, that they, they should be closer to Christ after the end of it.
There ought to be- No question ... a deeper walk and a discipleship because of it. That is a hu- and I, you know, I- True ... in fact, I don't know that I've ever heard anybody mention Bibl- uh, church leadership in the context of Of con- the continual discipleship relationship with the people we're leading.
Stephen Mansfield: Well, it's, it, it's just gotta happen because, becau- for two reasons.
First of all, when we step into a Christian context of leadership, we need to bring all of our understanding from scripture-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Stephen Mansfield: to how people are made- Mm-hmm ... what motivates them, how they achieve their best, how do they take hold of that for which Christ Jesus has taken hold of them. So there are destiny issues and spiritual gift issues and negatively stronghold and sin issues.
Mm-hmm. And we, we wanna be, we wanna be dealing with all of those. To put it real crassly, if the pastor's secretary is not a, not a better, more powerful Christian after 10 years working at that, uh, you know, outside that pastor's office, then that pastor's not doing his job. And I'm not [00:13:00] saying she or he is his- Right
only project, but the culture he builds should make everybody a better believer, and therefore more effective. I mean- Mm-hmm ... really, if we're honest, growing dynamically in Christ, finding out who you are, taking hold of that for which Christ Jesus has taken hold of you, et cetera, et cetera, all of that should make you a better worker- Right
while you're becoming more conformed- Yeah ... to the image of Jesus. So it, it sh- it shouldn't be a dichotomy. We're not gonna learn that from Steve Jobs.
Mike Glenn: No. No, certainly not. Now, uh, we are having this conversation, uh- In the middle of, um, a lot of stories about pastors and Christian leaders who have fallen and who have compromised their ministry.
I mean, it's almost, uh, a daily thing now of, of something being revealed about a leader. And, and, and a lot of these, uh, they, you know, they were heroes of mine- Sure ... and, and, and I'm, I'm sure you, you. And then you find out, wow, uh, they weren't [00:14:00] who I thought they were. So what, as leaders, as, as church leaders especially, what are the things that we need, one, to be mindful of, uh, the landmines out there, and then two, what are the practices that we need to have in place so that we don't get there?
Stephen Mansfield: Well, let me, let me rephrase something you just said. Okay. I agree with you. Let me just rephrase it. If we conclude that a fallen Christian leader just wasn't who we thought they were-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Stephen Mansfield: then what we don't pay attention to, and you know, you know 'cause you know me, that, that, that this is something my firm specializes in- Right
is restoring fallen leaders. If we think that that, that leader just wasn't who we thought we were, they were, and therefore basically we're saying they were bad seeds from the, from the beginning, then what we do is we, we don't pay attention to what you're asking me, which are the, the errors, the steps, the beliefs, the flaws that step in along the way of an otherwise good path and cause that person to fall.
Right. In other words, it's not just that they were- Okay. Fair ... deceivers and evil- There's [00:15:00] a better way of saying it ... from the beginning. Right. Okay. I'm not trying to correct you, buddy, but I'm just saying- No, I got you ... it's not that we're, not that we're saying, well, Joe, I'm just, if, if, if there's a Joe who's fallen, I'm just making up that name, um, was evil from the beginning.
What we're saying is there are steps along the way. There are things that person gives themself to. For example, we teach these things. Um, often a leader falls because they're out of season. Mm-hmm. This is a little bit weird and mystical. They shouldn't have been taking that job. They shouldn't have extended that contract.
Mm-hmm. They told their wife they'd retire and they'd have their, you know, their pottery business- Mm-hmm ... and love the grandkids. But no, they got ambitious and they got workaholic. They went too far, and now they are, and I mean this word in a negative sense, they're striving.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: Working hard and striving is fine, but striving.
So now they're working hard. All pistons aren't firing. They're not where they're supposed to be. All gifts aren't at their best. They're striving. They're working hard. Now they're medicating. They're going home exhausted, tired. The whiskey looks good, or the sugar looks good, or the, or the whatever- Mm-hmm
maybe the porn, whatever. In corporate situation, they're on the other side of the world from their wife and their family- Mm-hmm ... and now the secretary looks good, and the local brand of [00:16:00] rum or whatever. And I, we, we fix that time and time again. So it's, it's breaking, it's breaking out of season. Uh, episodes of bitterness.
You can't believe how many times past seasons of bitterness psyching, cycling through a person's soul leads to this. During Watergate, Rich-
Mike Glenn: I, I get wounded in the past And I never deal with it- Never deal with it ... and it never heals with it.
Stephen Mansfield: Well, then- It
Mike Glenn: never heals ...
Stephen Mansfield: and then the pastor steps into a deacon's meeting or an elder's meeting or a session or whatever they got- And somebody
Mike Glenn: triggers
Stephen Mansfield: it somewhere
somebody triggers that thing, and now-
Mike Glenn: Uh ...
Stephen Mansfield: the soul has a memory like an elephant.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: Soul's coated in Velcro. We'll hang on, we hang onto that stuff forever, right? Like, I, I, I mean, I can, if I want to, summon something a coach said to me when I was in the 11th grade. Yeah. And I don't let it define me. Yeah.
But if I go, "Well, that dang coach." Yeah. Yeah. I can remember that and bring that back up. Richard Nixon, during Watergate, would beat, fall to the floor on his hands and knees and start beating the floor and talking about what they were doing to him When Henry Kissinger and, you know, Haldeman and others were, would figure out what he was talking about, he wasn't talking about the Democrats or the committee.
He was, or the, or the FBI. He was talking about the [00:17:00] way that his little town in California treated his Quaker family when he was growing up.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: It was 50 years later. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: 60 years later. So that's part of it, too. I could go on and on. There are about... D- I've written a little booklet called 10 Signs of Leadership Crash.
Right. It's about $3 on Amazon, so I'm not selling books trying to make money, but, but, but I think that you've put your finger on the right thing, which is that it's not just this pers- person, it was just bad from the beginning, and we all knew it. Doggone it, we just didn't talk about it. It's that they've ta- stepped into some traps along the way, traps of soul- Mm-hmm
traps of behavior- Mm-hmm ... and that causes them to, to fall apart.
Mike Glenn: And, and the interesting thing that a lot of us don't think about is that y- y- you spoke of seasons, is that every time the seasons change, you have to renegotiate-
Stephen Mansfield: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: your path-
Stephen Mansfield: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: and, and, and your habits and your soul care and all that for this new season.
Stephen Mansfield: Right. Well, and, and I'll give you an example out of my own life and marriage. You know Bev, my- Mm-hmm ... my wife, and you know we're crazy about each other, and we're also crazy. We [00:18:00] love, we love each other. Mm-hmm. We have a lot of fun. Bev, uh, coming from scripture, but also just the way she likes to think about it, talks about marriage as a covenant.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: And so she says, well, th- this is how she would think. If I suddenly took a job with some company in Indonesia, she'd go, "Well, let's talk about our deal here." Mm-hmm. Now, that sounds real crass and legalistic, but what she's saying is there's a, there's a, there's an agreement between us-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Stephen Mansfield: that I wanna be able to be in with you.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: But you just took a job in Indonesia working for an auto company. What does this mean for me? What does this mean- Mm-hmm ... for the kids and the grands? Mm. What's this gonna mean financially? How f- how often can I fly home? What's going on? I, I mean- Mm-hmm ... I, I wanna love you with my whole heart, so don't, let's not let anything come between us.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: And she'll talk about the deal.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: Now, she's not really that crass. It's just the best language we can find. And often she's, she's right. Often marriages of high-powered leadership people go amok because the deal's been violated-
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: Right ... because the deal's been broken. Yeah, the previous contract- The contract, the covenant
Mike Glenn: previous
Stephen Mansfield: understanding-
Mike Glenn: Right ... previous
Stephen Mansfield: covenant. You said we'd do so-and-so. Yeah. Well, wait a minute, that's back when I was in Austin, but now I've moved to Dallas- Right ... and [00:19:00] I'm doing this other job. Mm-hmm. Well, you should've, we should've wor- re- not renegotiated the marriage, but re- renegotiated the understanding- The deal
of what you're expecting.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: I didn't know you were gonna take another 10 years in your profession. Yeah. I didn't know that we were gonna live in a house three-quarters the size. Mm-hmm. You know, that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. So, uh, there, you
Mike Glenn: make- Or if you're like me, you stepped out of position for 32 years, and my wife says, "Now where are you going?"
Exactly. Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: You're not gonna be sitting around here
Stephen Mansfield: all day. Exactly. And Bev and I work together professionally, so it's, it's even more important- Mm-hmm ... that she has a right, not just as wife, but kinda business partner, too- Mm-hmm ... to say, "Now what does this mean exactly? You know, what, what, what will I be doing?
What will you be doing, et cetera?" We could just go on and on and on. There, there, what the, the things you wanna watch for Uh, are medicating, and I use the word medicating, uh, negatively in my talks about te- uh, leadership crash. Mm-hmm. Um, what's the pain point and how are you medicating it? You can medicate it with golf, you can meditate, you medi- uh, medicate it with too much busyness, you can medicate- Mm-hmm
et cetera. And by the way, just referring back just for a moment, the problem with [00:20:00] being bitter is not just that you're having an emotional experience, but when most people feel seriously embittered, they also feel entitled.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: So I have, I have been in the office with the FBI at the door when the congressman got bitter about how he was treated and therefore used the money he shouldn't have used, and I've just been called, our firm's just been called in.
The FBI is about to take him away. But the reason he did that is he felt entitled.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: And the-
Mike Glenn: Be- because I, I endured this pain, therefore I am owed-
Stephen Mansfield: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: this.
Stephen Mansfield: And you and I are good enough junior psychologists to know that that, that pain might have been layered from dad- Mm-hmm ... the uncle, the coach, the girlfriend who dumped him, and the previous job where, you know, the, by the political opponent who called him bad things.
So now he's going to prison.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: Because he misused his ranking privileges- Mm-hmm ... thinking, "I'll just take that money and get the house that I deserve," or- Yeah ... whatever he did. And so bitterness, it be- it's the entitlement that we feel. So ev- all of these things are, are part of it, but I've-- we've handled lots of we, of what we call leadership crashes, and then of course we do the leadership crash postmortem, which is why [00:21:00] did it happen?
And believe it or not, it almost all comes down to, uh, soft factors. You think that a leader fails, especially in corporate world, because they, they bought the wrong headquarters or- Right ... bought the wrong computers or hired the wrong people. Yeah. But, you know, far more than all the storms that get all the press in this country, especially the US, um, far more damage than what those storms are doing are termites.
Completely unseen. They will do more damage in the US this year than all the storms we talk about, even with Helene. And so working under the surface is where-
Mike Glenn: So, so, so, so it's not-
Stephen Mansfield: Basically there's bugs, there's bugs eating your house and you need to pay attention.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. There, there's not, it's not the, the, the stress of having to do four funerals this week.
It's not the constant demand of having to preach every- Right ... every week. It's, it's not all of those things that we would traditionally attribute to burnout.
Stephen Mansfield: Right.
Mike Glenn: This is why you feel this way. It is those untended termites.
Stephen Mansfield: Right. [00:22:00] Right. You know that you and I, you and I both, I, I was, you were pastor for many years, I was pastor for a couple of decades.
Uh, you know that we can do four funerals a week- Mm-hmm ... and find joy and energy in it- Mm-hmm ... and end the week with a great couple of days with our wives before we cycle back into preaching again. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Well, even that, if, if, th- there are some times you walk away from a funeral and you know, "This is why I was born."
Stephen Mansfield: Right, right. '
Mike Glenn: Cause I can walk this family through this, through this valley.
Stephen Mansfield: But if you are really angry at whoever the authorities are, the archbishop- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... the bishop, the deacons, the session, the elders, whoever, whatever your denominational flow is, well now that doing what you were made for has got a taint to it.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: It's damaging you in some way, and you're being damaged by what you're allowing. So it's not just the doing of it. I've had extremely busy months as a pastor- Right ... burying people, building- Right ... part of the building crashed in. Yeah. Got [00:23:00] vilified in the press for being a Christian or whatever. Yeah, yeah.
And I, and I felt awesome. Fantastic. That's right. Because I was right with my wife- Yeah, yeah ... I'm right with my kids, and right with Jesus, and I have a band of brothers. Mm-hmm. We can talk about that whenever you're ready. I believe that we need to have g- uh, friends of the same gender around us who we've said, "Watch me."
Mm-hmm. "Check me." You know, you've written me many times, "How's your soul?" It's 'cause I said, "Speak into my life." Mm-hmm. And not just 'cause you were my pastor, but because you're a buddy. Um, and I finished that month energized- Yeah ... and thankful to feel the pleasure of God.
Mike Glenn: But if I'm angry because the board made me go to several meetings-
Stephen Mansfield: Yes
Mike Glenn: and then somebody dies-
Stephen Mansfield: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: I get mad at this person for picking this day to die.
Stephen Mansfield: Well, no, no, that's exactly right. A- and you do. You
Mike Glenn: do.
Stephen Mansfield: Or su- or suppose- Yeah ... or suppose in a meeting, some, some official said, "You can't preach worth a dang."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: Well now, while you're preaching at a funeral, you may have a little bit of well, I'll show them kind of thing.
Right, yeah. Well, now you're striving- Yeah, yeah ... and now you're being competitive, and you're really angry even though you're doing a funeral, and it starts to become a toxic brew in your soul. Mm-hmm. And that's the stuff that causes you [00:24:00] to crash, because now you do four funerals, and you go home, and you're not just having a glass of wine with your spaghetti with your wife.
Right. You're having three or four bottles- Right, right, right ... or whatever the- Yeah ... situation is in your life. And that's, that's where pastors get in trouble. And, and because it's all kept secret, shock, he showed up- Right ... drunk in a car and got stopped by the police. Right. Or shock, he slept with the secretary.
But those of us who knew the story weren't that shocked.
Mike Glenn: Right, right. So, so let's, uh, and you've already hinted, um, one of the things that pastors don't do well is have a, a band of brothers around them. And I'm not talking about just a, a, a group that they lead Bible study with or anything. I'm talking about guys that are on the journey with them.
Stephen Mansfield: Right. I've, I am concerned about pastors. A lot of denominations, they move a lot- Right ... and what have you, and then everybody they know is in their church. It's like having everybody they know work for them-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Stephen Mansfield: in a cor- corporate setting. I believe every man who's gonna be a success, who's going to be successful as a man, has [00:25:00] gotta have a band of brothers, um, to whom he has said I wanna have a free fire zone with you.
Mm-hmm. Free fire is a military term that means, uh, you can hit away on any subject you see in my life. Mm-hmm. We're gonna have fun, we're gonna sacrifice animals on the grill, we're gonna play some basketball or maybe take trips together. We're gonna be friends, but I want you to watch me. If you're hearing that angry cell phone call with my wife- Mm-hmm
you ask me about it. Mm-hmm. You see me checking out the backside of the waitress four or five times when you know I've got a great wife at home- Mm-hmm ... you check me on it. You see more belt loops being used to cover- Mm-hmm ... my big belly, you, you say, "What's going on, man?" Mm-hmm. "You're eating your stress." I want to be, I wanna be in your life, you be in my life.
And I'm telling you, I- most pastors don't have that because they'd have to fabricate it out of people they feel like they've got to impress because they're in church. Right,
Mike Glenn: right.
Stephen Mansfield: But I think men have gotta have it even if, even if they've gotta have it remotely, even if, even if it's a bunch of guys from college that have stayed together- Mm-hmm
and they're not in your church or local. That's not the ideal, by the way, but at least they've got somebody who's seeing them every quarter of a year or so on and saying, "Man, what is up?" Mm-hmm. "You've gotta ... You can't ask salt to be [00:26:00] passed at the table- Mm-hmm ... without dumping some bilge on the table. What's going on?"
Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: And I, I think that's essential because, you know, you, I think you've heard me use this illustration before. Let me use it real quickly. Not long ago, somebody showed me a picture of, of a scene at a party, and I said, "Who's that?" He said, "It's you, fool." I was sitting on a sunken couch in a T-shirt that got turned and pulled and stretched over my stomach.
Yeah. And I had about 19 Oreos in my mouth. Yeah. I looked like Jabba the Hutt on a bad day. I was halfway through a blank, so I hadn't had anything to drink, but I looked like- Yeah ... maybe I was drunk and, you know, jowly and everything. I, and I, and I literally looked at it, I thought, "I did not know it was possible, even in an extreme, for me to look that way."
Mm-hmm. Yeah, looked different, yeah. Then I thought, "Well, if I c- if I can look a way physically that I didn't know was possible for me to look," 'cause we all do the same thing in the mirror. Right. Yeah, we
Mike Glenn: do
Stephen Mansfield: that. What's going on inside of me that I don't see? Mm-hmm. And so I've concluded that I, as, as, as introspective and as self-examining as I am-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Stephen Mansfield: as a, as an introvert and a reader and a Christian leader, I need other people keep an eye on me. And by the way, I empower my band of brothers to go ask Bev. [00:27:00] You know full well- That's good, yeah ... because we're friends. "Call Bev anytime you want, ask if things are going all right, not just, again, 'cause you're my pastor, but, um, but, but because I believe that's gotta happen."
And Bev also knows who to call. I'm out of the country, something happens, she knows who to call.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: Whereas the survey showed that the average man in America today doesn't know who they'd call-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Stephen Mansfield: to get their son out of jail at 3:00 in the morning if they were on a business trip.
Mike Glenn: Well, the survey, uh, uh, the, the young adults, especially young men, they wouldn't know who to call.
Stephen Mansfield: Yes, exactly.
Mike Glenn: And, and they don't have anybody to call-
Stephen Mansfield: Why anybody like
Mike Glenn: that ... at, at 3:00 in the morning.
Stephen Mansfield: Yeah. Who would you trust? The average man can't name a best friend. Mm-hmm. And when I ... Because I talk to men a lot. When I ask them who their friends are, they give me what psychologists call rust friends.
The rust friend is the guy who was in your wedding you haven't seen or talked to in five years. Yeah, yeah. But when I ask you who your best friend is, you name him.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: And you don't, not even sure what his address is anymore. Well, that's damaging.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: We need people up in our grill. We ... I, and I'm not saying it's a constant confrontation fest, but people who've got their eyes on me- Stephen, you're just, m- m- now the arrogance- Well-
is getting ridiculous [00:28:00]
Mike Glenn: and we're gonna throw Tyler down ... the thing, the thing, we, we, we got this thing about accountability means that I'm gonna be up in your grill yelling at you all the time.
Stephen Mansfield: Right. It's not.
Mike Glenn: The accountability is I know your best self.
Stephen Mansfield: Yes.
Mike Glenn: I know you as your best self. Yes. And when I see a moment that doesn't match that best self-
Stephen Mansfield: Yes
Mike Glenn: then that's when I'm gonna step on, going- That's a very good way to say it ... "I know, I know who you are."
Stephen Mansfield: Very good way to say
Mike Glenn: it. "This is not you."
Stephen Mansfield: Yes.
Mike Glenn: I- There was one time when I was dealing with my mom's, um, uh, Alzheimer's, and I was coming back from Huntsville. She hadn't moved up here yet, and I was so mad, and I was so angry Uh, uh, because if you've dealt with a situation like that, you think you're crazy at times.
M- maybe I've got Alzheimer's, not my mom. And, um, and so Jeannie called me, and we're kinda talking through it, and I just, I'm just ranting. I don't care. I'm not going back. If she wants to do this, she can. Da, da, da, da. And Jeannie just lets me rant, and at the end of it, Jeannie just says, "That's not you."
Stephen Mansfield: Yes.[00:29:00]
Yes, that's powerful, isn't it? Isn't it
Mike Glenn: right?
Stephen Mansfield: It's powerful.
Mike Glenn: That's not you. And,
Stephen Mansfield: and she's also saying, "I love the real you- Yeah ... and you're departing from it."
Mike Glenn: Yeah,
Stephen Mansfield: yeah. Well, and b- and we've gotta have that with our wives certainly.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: But beyond that as well. Also
Mike Glenn: with brothers.
Stephen Mansfield: Exact- gotta happen. Yeah.
Gotta happen. Because, um, our brothers, you know, they see what our wives don't. Mm. Our, they're female, our wife's female, they love us. We've already got them fooled to an extent- ... or they would, they wouldn't have married us. Um, but yeah, I think that, I think that's really important, and that's hard for a pastor, as you well know- Mm-hmm
because pastor's been moved to, you know, bucksnort Tennessee- Right ... to start a church, and now he's there, and, and who does he have to deal with? People he's known 15 minutes- Mm-hmm ... or who he's supposed to pastor. But somehow we gotta solve this- Right ... and it, and it, it's gotta be more than just a performancey Bible study.
I tell
Mike Glenn: people that one reason you gotta be in a Bible group, uh, uh, is because the first person you lie to is yourself.
Stephen Mansfield: Yes.
Mike Glenn: This doesn't apply to me.
Stephen Mansfield: Yes.
Mike Glenn: And if you don't have a brother sitting next to you who laughs at your stuff -
Stephen Mansfield: Yes, yes ...
Mike Glenn: and who says, "Oh, come on." Yeah. "Remember we, you know, when that person pulled out in front of you?"
Yeah. "That wasn't praise language that came out of your mouth," so -
Stephen Mansfield: [00:30:00] A- and, and you know, another thing, too, is we need, I mean, you and I are friends, but you and I are also basically the same kind of person in the sense that we're Christian leaders. Right, yeah. So you, we both, we need each other, but we also need people who aren't like us.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: Some of my friends, just because I help chaplain a, a, an NFL team, are ex-NFL. Mm-hmm. Well, they don't play. They don't, you know? Like, they're not, they're not near as polite as you are. Yeah, right. Uh, you know what I mean? And so they d- they just look at me and they go, I mean, I love it- Yeah ... 'cause one of those guys just are very aware when I get any kind of
He's very aware of bodies. Mm-hmm. He was a trainer and all that. And so I w- I need him to say, "Man, you, like, I wanna, I wanna die in good, I wanna live my life in good shape." Mm-hmm. He'll just confront me. He'll, he'll even watch how I eat a meal. Now, he's not spying on me. Right. He's not trying to make me miserable, but he'll go, "Dang, Mansfield, five desserts?
Is, you know, don't you think that's a little bit..." But I like the fact that, well, my point is that there are, I, we got people different than us. Right. I've got people unlike me. Mm-hmm. If you saw my, if you saw my main band of brothers, uh, other than just my circle of friends coming in right now, you'd go, "There's not a one there that's anything like Mansfield."
Yeah. And that's, that's what we have to dare to do, [00:31:00] and the average guy, much less the average pastor, has a hard time having that kind of transparency.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Okay, our, uh, our, our friends watching us, most of them are pastors, leaders in local churches. What, what are, what are the two or three things that you want to say to them?
Here are the things that if you're not doing anything else, do these things.
Stephen Mansfield: Your job is to get, make sure the ministry gets done. It's not to do all the ministry. Mm-hmm. That's bigger, that's easier in a great big church than it is in a smaller church, but you can never buy the lie that your job is to do all the ministry.
And I, I, I have a bias. I pastored for 20 years, and I've worked outside of the, of the church professionally and with leaders, as Michael said. Uh, and I w- and I will say that one of the concerns I have is just the w- the expectations upon a, the average pastor and the way ministry is structured. And if you buy into that lie, if you think you've gotta do it all, if you live in the- Mm-hmm
cultural expectations, you're gonna die. So that's [00:32:00] number one. Number two, you must, you must have people outside of your ministry context, um, that are able to speak into your life and that you have fun with You gotta have somewhere where you can just be yourself. You, uh, uh, it might be a hunting group or it might
But whatever it is, you gotta have somewhere where you can be yourself, talk honestly to guys, somebody you can turn to and say, "I think I'm a failure." Mm-hmm. "I think I'm about to sleep with the secretary," or, "I, my wife is on my last nerve." You gotta have somebody outside of where you're gonna get punished within the church.
And I don't mean that as a, some kind of curse, but you know what I'm talking about. You can't just tell the deacons exactly what's going on in your soul all the time. Um, that you gotta have some men you can talk to and that, and yet they're mature enough to speak back to you and, and help you to straighten that out, be with you, walk with you, and that kind of thing.
And then finally, you've got to ... And there, there are many things we could talk about, but one of the things also is you've gotta live a paced life. You've gotta live a life that is, that, that you regulate well. What about rest? What about days off? What about romance? What about [00:33:00] workout? What about adventure?
When's the last time you wept over something you read? Mm-hmm. When's the last time you got inspired to tears 'cause you were out in the wild? What's your version of being in, in the wild? I think, I think every man should be working towards breaking some kind of a barrier. It could be his pushups. It could be how far he can run.
It can be his football game. It can be some kind of a physical barrier. That summons such great things from the life of a man. So, uh, I, I'm concerned that most pastors have bought the lie of Bible colleges from 50 years ago, let's burn out for Jesus.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Stephen Mansfield: The problem is that along the way of burning out, you get weak, you get stressed, you get susceptible, and you, you fall.
And, and- And that becomes the leadership crashes we're talking about. And, and you
Mike Glenn: set some other fires. Right.
Stephen Mansfield: Right. You wanna set your church on fire living unregulated- Yeah ... unrestful, unwhole life.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, we know the damage that happens- Yeah ... when, uh-
Stephen Mansfield: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: when the, when the leadership is, is, is not well.
Stephen Mansfield: Right.
Mike Glenn: Then everybody around them has to ... Is, is, is infected- Yeah ... by that, by that leadership.
Stephen Mansfield: The [00:34:00] final thing I'd say, and I'm not trying to be exhaus- uh, uh, exhaustive in this list. But the final thing I would say is know your season.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Mansfield: Know your season. Your season at Brentwood Baptist was wonderful and long, and thank God.
Well, you and I both know most people won't have that for whatever reason. Right. So, so you, you had a good long season. Um, for other guys, they're meant to put in four or five years, do the good they're meant to do. That's why Jesus sent them there. Mm-hmm. Do it, do it with joy. But don't think it's 50 years.
Don't overstay your welcome. Don't ... Kn- know the season. Mm-hmm. Have a sense of who you are. At the same time, don't run and just be afraid- Right ... and be driven off. But, but that, that is essential. I, I cannot tell you how many times I've been with major leadership crashes just as they started happening, and the guy who crashed just starts beating the desk and saying, "I knew I was out of season."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Stephen Mansfield: In our work, they suggested this language, not us. Right. And so that's, that is really, really essential.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Okay. He's Steven Mansfield, and we are grateful for his time with us today. I'm Mike Glenn, president of The Engaged Church Network. This is the [00:35:00] podcast for The Engaged Church Network, and we're really glad you spent this time with us.
