Beyond Management: Leading a Well-Structured Ministry feat. Leon Drennan
Join Mike Glenn as he welcomes long-time friend and leadership mentor, Leon Drennan, to the podcast. Leon shares key insights from his extensive experience in organizational leadership, both in the healthcare industry and with pastors. In this episode, they dive into the essentials of leading a local church, balancing ministry demands, and empowering staff to protect their time and focus. Leon's five foundational principles—purpose, people, priorities, power, and progress—are discussed in depth, offering practical guidance for pastors navigating the challenges of leadership.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn and I am the president of the Engaged Church Network, and we're glad that you have joined us for today's podcast. Joining me today is my friend Leon Drennon. Now, Leon and I have known each other for 30 some odd years now, going back. Uh, Leon was a member of Brentwood Baptist Church while I was pastor there.
Uh, worked with us in helping us put the structure, uh, the organizational structure inside Brentwood that is still serving our congregation now. Uh, and has become a very good personal friend and mentor to me, and so I, uh, imposed on him to, uh, share with you what he taught me over the years that we, uh, we were together.
I have asked him to be a little nicer in the teaching of you than he was of me. Uh, but, uh, we were in the middle of the foxhole. So, uh, so I can imagine, uh, that there was some urgency to [00:01:00] get done some of the things that we had to get done in the middle of that. Uh, Leon had a very successful career in the healthcare industry here in Nashville.
Uh, and now has devoted himself to, uh, uh, leadership coaching, counseling, mentoring, and, uh, and spends a lot of time working with Christian leaders, especially pastors, and I'm glad to have him here today. Leon, welcome. Thank you. Uh, glad that, uh, you've joined us. Uh, you and I have spent a long time working together and, uh, and, uh, a- about how you actually get things done in the local church.
Now, it was probably twice as long for me because you had to, you had to unteach some things that I had, that I had picked up from various leadership counseling things that didn't work, uh, and were actually harming the church and, uh, frustrating what I wanted to get done. Uh, and, and as we've talked about, a young pastor comes out of seminary, knows all the theologians, [00:02:00] knows a lot of New Testament, Old Testament theology, but doesn't know how to lead a local congregation.
So what are those basic kind of skills that every pastor needs to know, uh, to lead a local congregation?
Leon Drennan: Oh, great question. So
let, let's define lead- Okay ... versus to manage, because a lot of folks use the terms interchangeably and, and they're different. Mm-hmm. Managing is just about directing and controlling people and activities. Leading, I'd define more as inspiring with vision- Guiding with priorities, empowering with individual goals, and then doing some planning, change management, change control, and then- Mm-hmm
having a control system, and then coaching and correction and [00:03:00] follow-up and feedback and those kinds of things. Real different dynamics. So at, at Brentwood and at most churches, you have a system whereby your ministers have a variety of bosses.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: And the loudest wheel, squeaking wheel gets the oil.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: And so we had a lot of that d- dynamic. You've got ministers that are really working hard, pulled in different directions, trying to please a variety of people- Mm-hmm ... often with conflicting messages and priorities. So what I learned over, over my years of being in organizational life is there are five keys that have to be instilled, and, and they're, number one, purpose.
Why are we here? Number two, and purpose is about your, your, your mission. Number two, people. Who cares about the mission? Who's capable of helping carry it [00:04:00] out? And then three, priorities. What do we do for this next season of time? Mm-hmm. Usually blocks of a year. Uh, uh, what are the priorities to move toward, uh, to, to execute the mission?
And then there's power. Okay? What do you do with the... How do you disseminate power? How do you empower people? How do you stay on track, track? And then finally there's progress. Well, to make progress, you've gotta have a specific plan, and if, if, if things don't change, they wind up sitting still- Mm-hmm ... so you've got to lead change, and there are right ways and wrong ways to do that.
And, you know, there, there are a lot of Baptists that have perfected the wrong ways. And, and then you have a control system, and, and this issue of control is important because you have management, which in its worst form is about controlling people- Mm-hmm ... imposing your will on people. And then you have a [00:05:00] control system, which is not that at all.
It's just, okay, where are we? Mm-hmm. Are we on track? Are we off track? Uh, what we need, what do we need to adjust? What do we need to adapt? And then finally, you have, you have a feedback s- you, you measure and you have a feedback system and some, some coaching.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: Okay? And, and who gets better without coaching?
You know, we just did the Olympics. Yeah, I heard What did all the Olympians have that made them world-class? They had coaches. Football season is coming, and you have the best of the best out there in the championship day. What do they all have? Coaches, yeah Coaches. Nobody, nobody in the world ever becomes world-class without a good coach.
And, and that's one thing that's often missing- Mm-hmm ... in, in the church structure, is good coaching. But, but those five Ps, purpose, why are we here? People, who, who's drawn to the mission, who's drawn to the, to the vision? Priorities, what are we gonna do? Power, who, who and how do we empower people- Mm-hmm ... to take up their [00:06:00] piece of the, uh, of the vision and, and, and the priorities, and then, and then the things you do to, to make progress.
Now, that is simple to speak. It's simple to draw out on a piece of paper, although it took me a lot of years to draw it the way I really wanted it. But those were the things- Right ... I really did, okay? And, and with the staff, what I really wanted to do was understand their head and their heart. Align their heart.
Okay, what do you feel called to do? Mm-hmm. Does that line up with why we're here? Does that line really line up with our mission? Okay. Do, do you have a good vision for what you would like to do and where you'd like to take your ministry? Yes. Okay. So then what we did was, uh, taught them and led them, uh, i- i- and, and the, the, the lay infrastructure in a way to protect them- Right
to be able to do what they felt most called to do. Mm-hmm. And we went through planning processes [00:07:00] where we, we would articulate the mission again and the vision. Okay, now what are the priorities for this period of time? What are the priorities- Mm ... for the church? Now, what are the priorities by ministry?
Okay, now minister, okay, what, what are the, what are the goals? What are the tangible things you wanna see accomplished this next year? We'd do that, and everybody would agree to it, and then that put the ministers in a position where when somebody wanted to run a different way, they could say, "Well, here's what, here's the plan.
Here's what I'm approved to do." Yeah, here, here's
Mike Glenn: what the church has, has- Here's what the church has approved ... has said we need to do. Now,
Leon Drennan: I don't have the authority to change that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: But now you can go talk to Leon- Mm-hmm ... and, and, uh, see if we make an exception here.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And- I, I want you to hold on that point- Okay
because I think, I think one of, one of the selling points where this thing really began to click, when the staff began to [00:08:00] understand that we did this work for their protection- Yes ... to help them stay on those things that were important without being distracted by all of the other constituencies out there that wanted their time and energy for other things.
That they felt
Leon Drennan: called to do. If it...
Mike Glenn: Yeah Yeah, and when, when they finally got it that this empowers you to protect your time and to protect your work and to say no to those things that would distract you, then we really got the buy-in.
Leon Drennan: That's right. And, a- and one of the struggles, honestly, was ministers tend to be people pleasers.
Right. They want to do what people want them to do. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I never, I don't remember ever a single time asking any- anybody on the staff to do more than what they proposed to do.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: I wanted them to be protected to do what they felt called to do, and more often than not, I was saying, "Are you sure?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: You know, uh, uh, "Can, c- can you do all of [00:09:00] that? Would you not be better to lower the expectations a little bit, exceed them- Mm-hmm ... if you can, if you want to, but not, not get yourself stretched too thin because you've got a family and, and other things going on in life, too?" Mm-hmm. But they, they did really over time begin to take a great deal of comfort in- Mm-hmm
in, in knowing that w- we wanted them focused on what they were called to do, and that we really were serious about protecting them and their time- Mm-hmm ... and their life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. So how would, how would you respond, and this is a question that, that you and I had a long time ago, of, of the, the leadership and all of that being unbiblical, or doesn't work in the church, or doesn't fit in the church?
Well- Do, do you understand my question? I, I understand your question.
Leon Drennan: Okay. Yeah, the, the w- the term that would get- riled up when somebody wanted to throw me off track is, "Well, you know, [00:10:00] we're getting too corporate here." Right. "Well, uh, help me here. What, what do you mean by corporate?" And they somewhere on, finally we get back to policies and procedures.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. "
Leon Drennan: Oh, I mean, you mean some guidelines that kinda give you direction on what to do, what you can do, what you can't do, what you should do, how to do it-" Mm-hmm ... stuff like that? That's the, uh, the policies and procedures, operating manuals, that's what you're talking about being corporate?" And I had the good fortune of the, of the guy that said that most loudly standing beside his desk with a big old thick Bible-
on it, and I, I picked it up, and I said, "Kinda like God did for us?" I says, "Where's your policy manual?" It was about that thick. Yeah. His Bible was about that thick. Yeah. I says, "We have some catching up to do here, don't we?" So, so, uh- But, but go, go back to the- Yeah ... to the main question. You have the, the, the spiritual gifts.
Mm-hmm. Prophecy, evangelism, so forth. [00:11:00] Uh, uh, leadership is a spiritual gift.
Mike Glenn: Administration is a spiritual gift. And m-
Leon Drennan: you know, lead- uh, administration is a- Mm-hmm ... spiritual gift. And, and we, we have a mutual friend that, that likes to say of the church it should be spirit-led order. Mm-hmm. Because I, I picture a trellis.
The s- the, the church is an organism, a living, breathing organism. Mm-hmm. It is the body of Christ. Mm-hmm. And it is guided by the spirit of Christ, but it is an organization, and as an organization, it functions by all the rules of any organization. So I picture it like a trellis. You've got the vine, and then you've got the structure that the spirit works through, and God is a God of order, not of chaos.
There are a lot of places in the Bible where, uh, it, it, it really talks about how to do things orderly and in the proper way. Well, the whole creation process is order- It was all order ... out of d- out of chaos ... and, and who goes off to war without a plan? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there's wisdom in many counselors, and [00:12:00] don't lean on your own understanding.
So the, the, the spiritual gift of administration, uh, is as important- Mm-hmm ... uh, or more so in the church as anywhere else. Mm-hmm. And you've got, you've got those biblical leaders. You've got Nehemiah, who was naturally gifted as an administrator.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: You have Daniel. You have Joseph. They were ... They didn't go to school and learn.
Right. They had that gift, and you see even pagan kings counted on them in their kingdom to deliver- Praise his name ... substantial results. Mm-hmm. And that is, that is so dra- Mm ... so dramatically needed in the church.
Mike Glenn: Well, the thing, the thing that- That was embarrassing for me. And I'm grateful to God that he let me suffer my embarrassment with just either a handful of close friends or by myself.
But, y- you know, we, we built the new facility at, uh, at Brentwood. [00:13:00] Our friend Joe Hudson was in charge of that, a layperson. Uh, in my own prayer time, I, I heard the Lord say to me, "You don't do anything with the building. You go tell Joe Hudson I've prepared him to do it. You support Joe." Well, the facility is magnificent.
It serves all our purposes. We came in under budget, and I had nothing to do with it. Uh, in fact, a couple of the meetings where I, where I would've done the exact opposite of what Joe did, and Joe's worked out brilliantly, and I was, I was embarrassed to see how I would have messed that up had, had I, had I not done it.
And, and, and my point is, the number of people in our church with the spiritual gifts at the right moment- Yes ... and, and had I taken that role, I would've hurt the church.
Leon Drennan: Uh, yes. And- One, one challenge I think people in [00:14:00] professional ministry have is they, they take their responsibility seriously, but they, they, they over- Yeah
take it, um, thinking, "Well, if God called me and I have this ministry, if I, if I have this church, if I'm called to lead this church- And if I have this vision ... and if I have this vision- Right ... then, then I'm called to do it. I'm supposed to know more about everything than anybody else." And, and that's not how the body works.
No. There's one head, there are many parts, and the parts are supposed to function in sync, in unison. And, you know, a pastor from Alabama is not supposed to know how to build stuff. Uh, you know, we, we, we had the discussion. You know, Mike, they've been building stuff since the Egyptians were building pyramids.
We're not gonna have a problem- That's right. ... w- with this structure. What w- the, the challenge and, and where I came in- Yeah ... and, and did what I do is the people infrastructure. Right. What does the organization itself look like? How, how do we bring order and structure [00:15:00] to that?
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Now, you know, one of our first conversations when, when you and I first talked, I told you, "I can see Z.
I can see the destination. I can see where we gotta go, and I can see how the various-" Uh, opportunities and culture are gonna allow us to get there. I can't see B or C or D or M. I can't see it. Right. That's right. Uh- It's just
Leon Drennan: everybody has a different lens on the world. Right. And God created us all different, gave us different wiring, different personality profiles, and it takes all of the unique lenses on the world to make the world work.
Mm-hmm. You've got a, uh, on the old DISC- Right ... personality profile system, you got a D that's a driver. They take charge. They, they cast the vision. You got an I that's an influencer. Mm-hmm. Okay? Get, they get the people excited and take care of the people side. Then you got an S who does the work, and a C who improves on it.
Mm-hmm. So you got an idea, you got somebody promoting selling the idea, somebody doing it, and then somebody making it [00:16:00] better. That's the way the world is supposed to work in very oversimplified terms.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: But if, if those parts aren't working in unison, it gets off track very fast. So I, I've got, I've got a great friend who's a developer, and he's a visionary.
And, uh, you know, we've been tr- friends for 25 years, and I'll, I'll sometimes say, "Buddy, a great vision without execution is just frustration." That's it.
Mike Glenn: That's it. Um, the, the other thing, uh, that, that I learned, uh, is pastors are afraid if I give away the power and give away the ministry, then I'll be giving away my influence.
I'll be giving away, um, uh, my leadership and all of that. I found that to be the exact, the exact opposite to be true. That's exactly right. And, uh, you know, [00:17:00] we, we, we spent a lot of time developing the campus pastors. You know, people were telling me, "Gosh, you can't let these guys get good," or whatever. And the, you know, as you and I were talking before we went on this podcast, couple of them are better than me now and they've run past where, where I, where I got them to.
Uh, but all of that came back, uh, uh, to me as, gosh, this is an incredible church because we develop pastors and, and we have an orderly system. There's no chaos- Right ... in the wor- in the way that this church works. The other thing that, that I want you to spend just a minute on is, uh, the frustration of a typical staff member, typical pastor is, I can't make everybody happy.
Somebody's always gonna be mad, and that's usually true. But instead of, um, that anger continuing, I found that people took our [00:18:00] staff and took our work a little more seriously and gave us a little more respect because we valued our own time- Mm-hmm ... and our own work differently- Mm-hmm ... because we would say no Uh, to certain people.
Leon Drennan: Absolutely. And, you know, the Apostle Paul said, "If I was still trying to please people, I wouldn't be pleasing Christ." That's right. And, and that's one of the thing I think every minister, I think every Christian needs to keep in mind. I used to tell my boss in the corporation, I, I can make everybody happy, or I can do the best thing for the company.
I, I can- Mm-hmm ... I, I can reach a reasonable compromise. I can't do both at the same time all the time. That's right. So wh- wh- what, what do you want? Do you want the best thing for the company? You want, uh, these people to- Yeah. And so at times, you choose who you're gonna make unhappy and how unhappy- Mm-hmm
you're gonna make 'em. But more importantly, how do you go about that? If you- Mm-hmm ... if you kind of use your, your presence, your, what I would call your personal power- Right ... and say, "I'm the [00:19:00] minister. No, we're not doing that," uh, everybody's gonna blow up over that. Mm-hmm. But if you use more of the institutional approach of, "Okay, we went through a planning process, and the church affirmed- Mm-hmm
th- the mission and the vision. They affirmed this set of five to seven year goals, and they affirmed and voted on the goals and the budget for this next year." Mm-hmm. "And, and the leadership has, has approved my goals. And, and I don't have th- the authority to work outside that without getting approval. I don't have the time to work outside that.
I don't have the budget to work outside that. Now, I'm quite willing to go with you to, uh, the, the folks that I have to be accountable to- Mm-hmm ... and have the discussion if we need to make an adjustment midstream, but I can't just arbitrarily do that." Right. And people work in systems, they work in organizations, most folks do- Mm-hmm
and they understand that principle- Yeah ... can respect that if it is said [00:20:00] back to them in, in a, in a calm and respectful way.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, you know, I remember the first time you, you pulled that on me as, as I walked in and said, "Hey, Leon, here's what we need to do." And you pulled out a piece of paper and say, "The last meeting we had, here are the three things you asked me to do."
"Now, which one of these do you want me not to do so I can do what you've just said?" Uh, and I had no idea of how I was walking down the hall, throwing things onto people, and the stress I was putting on, on the, on the team because I was, I was creating chaos rather than creating the order
Leon Drennan: Right. And, and then the good side of being creative and imaginary- Mm-hmm
and vision casting is, uh, uh, y- you aspire to more than the typical mind thinks of. Mm-hmm. And what you just mentioned is the [00:21:00] downside. The- Thus the, the, the bringing, bringing order-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Leon Drennan: to that process. Let's go through a planning process and, and, and, uh, uh, get everybody on the same page, and then e- execute.
But we weren't legalistic about it. We did make some changes- Oh, yeah, yeah ... midstream. You remember Kairos. Right. We had just finished the budget process when you sat down and talked to me, and somebody had come to you with the idea. Right. You talked to me about- Mm-hmm ... Kairos. And I said, "Well, we, w- we don't have any budget.
Can we find any money somewhere to do something- Yeah ... just to pilot this and get it started?" And we came up with a few thousand dollars. Oh, yeah. A- a- and we did that even- Mm-hmm ... though it wasn't in the plan. Mm-hmm. So y- y- the process is a tool. Uh, it doesn't need to be a ball and chain.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Give me the, give me a handful of, of, of dos and don'ts for a young, young pastor coming into a new s- setting.
Here, [00:22:00] here the, here are the couple things you have to do, and here are the couple things you need to be careful about.
Leon Drennan: Well, the first thing you do before you start changing things is you listen to people.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: You get to know what's going on, what's working well, and don't mess with that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: You figure out what you think needs to change.
And, uh, uh, but you listen long enough w- w- what needs to be done, what's doable, who can do it Who has the skill and the passion for it? Uh, who can you really trust? Mm-hmm. Who, who's in this for the attention to themselves, for the, the, the sense of control they get? You know, one thing I would tell any minister, be careful who you put in charge of a committee.
Right. Because guess who, guess who will volunteer every time? Somebody that wants to be in control. Yeah. And the folks that wanna be in control have an agenda. A- and I don't mean that they got a malicious agenda, they just have an [00:23:00] agenda. And when you're leading a committee, you, you want the consensus of the committee.
Mm-hmm. Somebody with an agenda is always gonna lead it toward their agendas. Right. So s- get to know the people, get to know the situation, then start with one initiative at a time, engaging people who have the knowledge, skill, and spiritual maturity to do something different and do something better, and empower them to do it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Leon Drennan: Okay. Figuring out what you think ought to be done and then trying to talk people into do it, that's management. That's not leadership. That's
Mike Glenn: right.
Leon Drennan: Yeah. Leadership is about empowering people to do what people want to do, know how to do, can do successfully because they want to and because God is leading them.
Yeah. Management is getting people to do what you want them to do. Mm-hmm. And you, you, you've talked a lot over the years about the nones. Mm-hmm. People that saw how their parents were and, "I want none of this." Yeah, yeah. And then you started talking about the dones. "I've [00:24:00] been in church 30, 40 years, and I'm done with this stuff."
Right. Well, the dones were developed under a management system where they were- Controlled, yeah ... convinced-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Leon Drennan: one way or another, healthy or not healthy, to do these things, and then they saw how it all played out and were frustrated with it. Right.
Mike Glenn: Exact- yeah, exactly right. Um, the, the, the, no one had more fun or, uh, or enjoyed a, a, a pastorate more than I did, and one of the reasons is, is I got to sit down with people who were passionate about using their gifts and their wiring for the kingdom of God, and it made a huge impact.
I think about you, I think about Bill Kenney, I think about Joe Hudson, and others who came to, to the church at particular places and particular points in time, said, "Let's do this." And because of their, their training and their experience and [00:25:00] all of that, they had such credibility with the church that they changed life.
So, uh, the, the last thing I wanna, I wanna leave with you pastors is you have, you have a church full of people who have been praying for the church as hard as you have. and who love that church as much as you do, who have a gift. Maybe they only have the one gift, but they have the gift that your church will need at a particular time, and their input will make the difference.
Do not be afraid of how God has empowered and gifted your church to achieve the mission that he's laid on your heart. I cannot thank this man enough for what he's meant to my life as a friend, but more than that, as a coach. Brentwood Baptist Church cannot thank him enough for all of the mistakes and all that you saved them from.
But he did it quietly in the back hall, so it never got out. [00:26:00] And my prayer for you as a pastor, that you will have people like Leon in your life who will allow you to do what God created you to do with the freedom of knowing you're doing exactly what God wanted you to do the way he wants you to do it.
I'm Mike Glenn. Thank you again, Leon, for being here. Thank you, Mike. And this is the Engage Church Network. Thanks for being here.
