Guiding the Church Through Cultural Shifts: Wisdom for Young Pastors feat. Scot McKnight
In this episode, Mike Glenn talks with New Testament scholar Scot McKnight about the church's role in today’s culture. McKnight, author of The King Jesus Gospel and The Blue Parakeet, shares insights on the church’s relationship with politics, the meaning of national symbols in worship, and the importance of strong mentorship. Offering advice for young pastors, McKnight emphasizes rooting ministry in Scripture and fostering a personal relationship with Jesus. This episode provides practical wisdom for leaders and anyone interested in faith’s impact on society.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I'm the president of the Engage Church Network, and we're glad that you have joined us for today's discussion. Our guest today is one of my favorite people in the whole world. His name is Scot McKnight. You probably are aware of him. He is the New Testament scholar who's written a book a week, it seems, uh, on, uh, the various New Testament themes.
The King Jesus Gospel, um, The Blue Parakeet, on and on the list goes. He has a very, very popular blog site, uh, for which I write on, uh, on any given Friday when he will let me. And so, um, uh, we have had a, a, a long discussion about what he's learning and how it applies to the local church, and how we interpret what we think is going on in the culture around us.
So it is my, uh, privilege to, uh, welcome my good friend, uh, Scot [00:01:00] McKnight to the podcast. Scot, welcome aboard. Glad, uh, glad you're here today. Well, Mike, good, good to see you. Good to be
Scot McKnight: with you, and I'm honored to have you writing on the Substack every week. Yes. Mm-hmm. And, and I, I craved, I crave the numbers that you get.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, so...
Mike Glenn: Um, you have been doing, um, uh, you have a great passion for the Evangelical church in America. And, uh, you do a lot of research, a lot of writing, uh, and, and how we apply the teachings of, of Jesus to the culture that we find ourselves living in now. So let me ask you the 50,000-foot-view question first.
What are the things that you're seeing that excite you, and then what are the things that, uh, concern you?
Scot McKnight: Um, excite me. I, I'd rather go with the other one first, you know? But, uh, the excitement, um, [00:02:00] I think we need to, uh, restore a balance in what we expect of what's going on and what we see of what's going on.
There are a lot of ordinary Christian people who are living faithful lives- Mm-hmm ... following Jesus. I mean, they're, they're all over the world.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Scot McKnight: And they're throughout the United States, and they're even in the South. So I, I, I, I need to get a little barb in there. Um, and I'm excited about the younger generation's, let's say, impatience with the older generation's system and culture that is insensitive to social issues.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Scot McKnight: So I, I mean, uh, in the last 11 years, well, actually, the last, uh, 30 years, uh, my, my years of teaching at North Park University before then- The [00:03:00] seminary. I, I was struck by the number of students who refused to disengage, let's say, racism or poverty or even, they wouldn't have called it this, economic distribution, but some kind of economic systemic unfairness that pervades the United States.
They thought all these things were consistent with the gospel, and they wanted a Jesus who ... They wanted to follow a Jesus who was like that, and they follow, they find that Jesus in the gospels.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Scot McKnight: And they are excited about
Mike Glenn: this. Mm-hmm.
Scot McKnight: Um, but they're disappointed, so this, I guess, bridges into the second.
They're disappointed with the number of people who think, um ... Well, I, I got this letter today. I wrote a post on my Substack Tuesday, I guess it was yesterday, [00:04:00] about the flipping of the vote that many younger evangelicals who, whose parents were evangelicals and who were very strong in the Republican Party are, I think are, their, their votes are flipping toward Democrats.
And they're dip- they're flipping that vote in some ways and restoring the old Southern Democrats. Uh, but it's not sim- it's not that simple. And I, and all I did was say, "I think that this is happening." I didn't say where I, what I believed. I mean, I guess I'm excited about it in some ways. And th- I got this letter this morning.
"I'm 41, and most of my generation that, that went Democrat are coming back to the Republicans. There is," and this capital letters, "nothing about the Democratic Party that can be supported as a born-again Christian. Abortion through all nine months after bir- even after birth. LGBTQ being shoved [00:05:00] down our throats and trying to push it on our children.
Deconstruction of families and a radical push toward communism. I will never view a pl- uh, view," and she meant vote, "for a platform like this, a platform that is anti-God in every capacity. Those you- young evangelicals are lying to you. They are not aligned with biblical truth. They're aligned with the world."
This, these, this kind of message is the sort of message I have heard several times a week for almost 30 years from younger evangelicals. Now, this is pretty old- Wh- which message?
Mike Glenn: Which, the letter? The letter is- This, this, yeah ... is, is representative- This letter ... of, of what you've been hearing?
Scot McKnight: Yeah. Th- Young students who are bothered by- This kind of message from this, this letter I got today Okay They're bothered by this.
Yeah They think there's something about this that's not right. This is [00:06:00] greater defense of republicanism than it is of Jesus, of the Gospels, of the message of the Bible- Mm-hmm ... of the prophets, of Moses, et cetera. And so I've heard this for almost 30 years, and, um, I, this, this concerns me, is that there is an alignment at times with certain ideas that some people just, uh, think w- we need to get away from this, these young evangelicals.
And, and I'm, I'm proud of them for their courage, for their, their wanting to follow Jesus in a more radical way, to push back against some other sacred cows in the Church. And, um, I, I think that this is, this is a concern to me, um, and I, I think it's a concern to a lot of people.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, the biggest trouble I got in, too, as a pastor, was when I took the American flag off the platform.
Scot McKnight: Oh. [00:07:00]
Mike Glenn: And, uh, and, and I tried to explain to people. I said, "We got people in our congregation from all over the world." Yeah. "And so when you ask them to pray for their country as, as, as we're told to do, pray for your nation, they're praying for Mexico, they're praying for Russia, they're praying for China. Uh, uh, and when you put the flag up there, you tell them that, that God is an American."
And I said, "That's not biblical." Yeah. Uh- No, I, I- And, and that was the biggest, the big- I told them, I said, "Jesus didn't give us a flag. He gave us the cross." Yeah. You know? That's right. That's good.
Scot McKnight: And, um, I was, one of my students told me that, uh, he's a pastor, been a pastor a long time, said they, they removed the church from their front platform one foot a month.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, to get it
Scot McKnight: off, yeah. I th- Yeah And someone else said you could move your piano one inch, uh, a month. Yeah, yeah, same,
Mike Glenn: same thing. But, uh- Just
Scot McKnight: gradually slide it off, yeah ... the, um, [00:08:00] I, I tell my students this, and I, when I, when this comes up, I say, "You know, there is no European evangelical who fits, uh, our political context."
They are all... You know, I remember someone, an e- a wonderful evangelical, pious, great prayer, great preacher in Denmark who said to me, "I think Obama is a conservative." And, uh, to me, this just represents the point, is- Right ... we are Christians, and Christianity transcends local politics. It's not that Republicans and Democrats don't matter.
I, I think it does matter to a lot of people. But, um- We cannot align our gospel so much with one political party, whichever party it is, and some people align it with communism. Mm-hmm. I've, I've experienced this with read- Right ... in reading, [00:09:00] um, that we alienate everyone else. And, and Mike, I tell, I probably learned this from you, I tell my students, "When you get up there as a pastor and you're preaching every week, you have to understand that you are pastoring people on both sides of the political aisle."
Exactly right. Mm-hmm. And when you take sides, you're just, you're asking for a fight that you shouldn't be fighting. So I'm with you. Those are my... I, I'm excited, I'm excited about the courage of this young generation. Yeah. I, I really am. The, the thing- And they're not
Mike Glenn: all young ... the thing that- And I'm- ... that I, I tell my friends is, we have sold our soul to the Republican Party and got nothing of significance from the Republican Party, that we've told them, "You need to support these things in order to get- Yeah
the evangelical vote."
Scot McKnight: Well, Carl Henry, when he, when they started Christianity Today, set [00:10:00] up the first office for Christianity Today was across the street from the White House. I think it's the east entry. That's where the office was, 'cause they wanted to be that close to politics, and they thought they were gonna have such an impact.
Mm-hmm. They moved it to Wheaton- Right ... which was moving it, you know, and it's been there almost forever. But in his autobiography, close to the end of his life, Carl Henry said, "I can think of no good thing that has come to us, to evangelicalism, as a result of our alignment with the Republican Party." Right.
Wow. Now, he's a Repub- he, he died, I'm sure, a Republican, but he realized the cost to evangelicalism- Mm-hmm ... by its political alignment. And, and Mike, we're seeing the fruit of this, the, whatever you, the result, the effects of this in the current generation. [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's deeply concerning to many people.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Young- younger pastors, and they're starting house churches, and they're starting community churches, uh, with, with a emphasis on strong relationships, strong discipleship, uh, and strong community involvement, but literally no kind of bigger structure than that. Uh, so does, does the lack, uh, or the loss of hope in political structures, has, have we also lost faith in ecclesiastical structures?
Well,
Scot McKnight: that's a good question. Um- I would say yes, pervasively the younger generation is suspicious of all these structures, these systems, but they're also deeply aware in a way that o- our [00:12:00] generation, our age people, were not aware of, and they are aware of the financial costs of, let's just say, building a building-
Mike Glenn: Right
paying
Scot McKnight: the insurance, paying for the upkeep, et cetera- Mm-hmm ... that they're not seeing as a possibility in the upstart of a church. Now, some of these people, Mike, you know, it happens in Nashville, 'cause I have a friend who started a church there, or joined a church and it, it has exploded in size. Some people come in with a great big, um, platform.
They come in with a big team. They come in with all kinds of possibilities and connections and finances, and they can get it off the ground-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Scot McKnight: and, and get going pretty easily, but a lot of people aren't doing this, and I do think that the relational connection, um, is a craving for the younger generation.
Mm-hmm. And I, I don't know if you've seen this. [00:13:00] Uh, I know you work with a lot of younger pastors. The younger pastors today are looking for mentors, and, uh- Mm-hmm ... they're aligning themselves with mentors. One day I sat down with Skye Jethani. This is probably 10 years ago. Skye told me that the young, uh, generation is no longer aligned with a denomination.
They're aligned with certain key figures, and at the time- Right ... he was telling me Andy Stanley, Rick Warren- Bishops ... uh, Tim Keller, Kel- They were aligned with these- Mm-hmm ... people and getting everything from them rather than their denomination, um, because they believed in that person. Right. They thought, "That person represents the kind of pastor I wanna be."
And I, I think this is, uh, something that we of our, of our generation needs to listen to and respect and to nurture in ways that maybe we, we haven't. But I, I know you're doing that with, with- Well, [00:14:00] yeah, we just had our first conference- ... this network ... which
Mike Glenn: was, which, which every Paul makes a Timothy. And, uh, the, what we have to h- help pastors understand, that half of your job now is identifying, training, and mentoring the next generation- Mm-hmm
of pastors, uh, and to recreate that pipeline. Uh, it, it's wasn't unusual for, um, uh, in the Black community for a, for a Black pastor to talk about his boys And that would be someone who had served under him in some capacity that he trained to pastor a church, and now they were leading their own congregation.
Every pastor now is gonna have to have his or her boys or, um, or mentees, people that they have trained to take on the leadership of, uh, of a local congregation. And you will not be a successful pastor until you have identified and trained the next [00:15:00] generation. That's,
Scot McKnight: uh... When I began teaching my first job 40 years ago, I recognized that there were some of the professors who developed disciples.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Scot McKnight: And I did not like that because they were a pain in the neck- ... to other pe- to other professors because they didn't do things exactly the way their professor- Right ... did it. And it could have been in a completely different field. You know, maybe it was a systematic theologian giving someone in Old Testament or New Testament grief because they weren't paying attention to Chalcedon enough.
Um, so, uh, but I, I think, I think that, uh, there's something to this- Mm-hmm ... is, is the development of, in a sense, a school around a pastor, around a professor of younger, gifted people who will [00:16:00] expand those ideas. Mm-hmm. I mean, look, that's what Tim Keller did. Yeah. It was so obvious. He, he pastored, he, he spent his time, I don't know how much time, but 50%, when you just said that, Mike, I, I thought, "That's a lot."
But I know, I know, um, Tim Keller. I had breakfast with him, and I know he s- spent a lot of time- Mm-hmm ... with these future pastors. So there's, this is, this is, uh, I, I think it's a good idea. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: What would you want to tell a young pastor who's, uh, starting their, their, their pastoral career about how to think as a pastor?
And, and, and, and, and what c- what I have in mind is, is some of the points that you made in The King Jesus Gospel.
Scot McKnight: [00:17:00] Okay. Uh, I'm asked this question more often than, than I think I deserve to be asked this question, 'cause I, you know, I'm not a pastor. But the first thing I would say is the, the pastor needs to become a person who prays and reads their Bible.
Right. There, there has to be an inner spirituality- Mm-hmm Rock and foundation. And when I say read their Bible, I do not mean prepare sermons. No, uh-uh. This has nothing to do with preparing sermons. They need to read their Bible. I mean, how many... You know, I'm stunned, but I'm, I, I'm talking to a lot of pastors.
How many, and I don't ask them, I, I, I could and I should maybe, how long has it been since you read 1 Kings? You know? Or how long has it been- Mm-hmm ... since you read Ezekiel? Now, look, Ezek- uh, Isaiah's fun to read, and, uh, Haggai's easy to read, but Ezekiel, I mean, [00:18:00] it's, takes some patience. He's kinda bizarre.
Um, but, uh, my point is that, are you reading this text or, or is this just stuff that you use for sermons? Yeah. So that's one thing. What I, what I tell
Mike Glenn: young pastors is, "I'm gonna ask you two questions, and you better be able to answer them. One, what are you reading in scripture?" Yeah. I hope you read all the books and are educated, but nothing replaces the role of scripture in, in the life of the believer.
Two, what's Jesus teaching you? Yeah. The radical teaching of Christianity is our rabbi's alive- Yeah ... who's tal- who tells us, "If you'll sit down long enough, I'll talk to you just like I talked to John and Peter." Yeah. And so the ministry has to come out of that overflow. I agree. And if it doesn't come out of the overflow, you're dangerous to the church.
Scot McKnight: Yeah. I remember the first time you told me this, we were in some obscure hallway- ... in Brentwood Baptist. I have no idea [00:19:00] where we were, but I remember. I can see the floor. I can see, it's sort of a blank wall. It was a long, it was a long hallway. And, uh, I think you had one of those scooters as well. Yeah. Uh, so, um, I totally agree with that.
All right, so I would say, let's say that's your way of expressing the, the inner-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Scot McKnight: spiritual formation. And, uh, I've, I've been working through Ephesians and Colossians lately, and this is really important. That, there's a really important theme for Paul. Mm-hmm. He doesn't pray, in a sense, that, that your ministry will flourish.
Of course, he's not talking to pastors there, but sorta. But he's saying, "I want your, your knowledge to increase so much that you'll be worthy of the Lord- Yeah ... in your, in your daily life." I mean, that's coming to know God- Mm-hmm ... uh, is what he's getting at. I mean, he has to say it in a sophisticated way. Um, so what [00:20:00] is the one thing I would tell pastors as, as, uh, young pastors?
Mm-hmm. Um, I would say, okay, that inner development. The second thing is you must find a mentor in the pastoral ministry who's pastored 25 years or more- Who has gray hair or is bald- ... uh, or who has gray hair and has colored it. And, um, they need to be wise. Mm-hmm. And if they're not wise, find someone else that can listen to you and guide you without just simply talking all the time- Mm-hmm
and telling you what to do. Mm-hmm. Is that they can... It's like, you know, um, I remember one time I was blogging, a long time ago, about something that a young pastor had said. And a friend of mine who's a, he's a retired pastor now, wrote me and says, "Why are you listening to these young people? Listen to [00:21:00] someone who has pastored for 30 years and you'll have a different answer about this very problem."
And I really took this to heart. Yeah. And one of the reasons I like talking to you is because you're one of those kinds of people.
Mike Glenn: Well, you're kind.
Scot McKnight: When I, when I get to talk to you, I think, "This is a guy who's been there, who's done it." The, y- your pastoral wisdom is not based on a book you read, it's based on experiences you've had in Nashville, Tennessee- Mm-hmm
with Baptists and other sorts of people. And it's, it's all, to me, it's real. It's, it's the real... It's what Paul is doing in his letters, is everything he tells people to do is a result of probably saying the wrong thing to one group of people. And, and he's learned, he's learned his lessons. And, uh- Yeah.
Mike Glenn: That's what I tell people, "I got this scar when I did what you're about to do." So Yeah.
Scot McKnight: Yeah, that's... And I, and I think, [00:22:00] I, I would say that young pastors, find a mentor. Mm-hmm. And, and I tell them this, wisdom in the Bible is listening to someone and doing what they say, but it's listening to a sage and doing what they say.
I have a, a young pastor friend, someone who was one of my students, who has asked me for, I mean, serious questions, decisions in their life, I'd say at least five or six times, and every time has done the opposite of what I said. And, and I'm b- and I'm r- actually proud to say, four or five of the five, they made a huge mistake.
And, and the person will sometimes tell people that I'm a mentor or a [00:23:00] sage for them, and I'm thinking, "No, you're not." Yeah. "You don't listen. You don't listen to me." And I think that wise young pastors find wise mentor pastors and listen to them- And do things their way and adjust those things rather than listen and pretend like they're listening- Yeah
and not, and doing things their own way. Then they're just stubborn, and maybe they're right sometimes. But my experience is that people who have, you know, like a student will be, a young person will, will write me about a syllabus and I'll, and I'll say, "I can tell you right now this assignment is not gonna work because this is what happens with students."
"Oh, I, you know, they're gonna do..." And they're wrong. You know? I, I know some things about teaching- That's right ... that a, a first year professor does not know. Yeah. And I don't care if they did teach as a graduate [00:24:00] assistant, uh, in someone else's class. That is not... It, it takes a while- Mm-hmm ... to learn even how to write a syllabus that c- is actually going to achieve its purpose.
Good. So, okay, those are a few ideas.
Mike Glenn: All right. Well, I thank you for being with us, uh, Dr. McKnight. What's your book you're working on now?
Scot McKnight: Well, I'm finishing up Ephesians and Colossians in the Everyday Bible Study, but my big project is Jesus and the Pharisees, which sometimes I call Conflict in Galilee.
But I'm trying to put together a way that is sensitive to the Pharisees that you see in a book like Amy-Jill Levine- Mm-hmm ... and Joseph Sievers. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And
Scot McKnight: others. There's quite a few good, good pieces of study on Pharisees. I'm trying to put this together and try to create a Jesus whose intention with the Pharisees, without it turning into antisemitism-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Scot McKnight: and strong anti-Judaism, and that [00:25:00] become... A- and you know, frankly, um, our instincts and our habits die slowly, and sometimes I, I look at things I've said and written, I think, "I was wrong there. Th- this was just not right." Well,
Mike Glenn: you know, I've, I, I've had it- And I'm working on it ... I've had that privilege of, of taking all the sermons that I've written out of, out of my church office, and now they're sitting around my house in boxes, and I'll pick a file up and look at it and go, "Surely I didn't preach this.
Surely." "Surely. Please, Jesus, tell me I did not do this to your word." Yeah. But oh, it's terrible.
Scot McKnight: Yeah. I have, this morning I was looking for s- a crazy thing I did many years ago, um, for, for our department, and I was looking through a notebook, and I started to open it and I thought, "No, I, I don't wanna see what I was thinking-"
way back, way back 30 years ago." Just can't, just can't do it. Just can't take it I don't want to know what I said about Romans then.
Mike Glenn: Oh, Scott, I am so grateful for your [00:26:00] time today. Thank you for being with us, Scott McKnight, and I am Mike Glenn of the Engaged Ch- Church Network. Thank you for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
