Pastoring a “Purple Church” in a Divided America | Clay Stauffer
Clay Stauffer, Senior Minister of Woodmont Christian Church, joins Mike Glenn to talk about leading through political polarization, disagreement, and cultural division. They discuss what it means to pastor a “purple church,” why humility and emotional intelligence matter, and how Christians can model a better way of living together in a divided world.
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Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] Clay Stauffer, pastor of Woodmont Christian Church, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here today.
Clay Stauffer: Great to be here, Mike. Thanks. Always good to spend time with you and to talk about, uh, important things.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, whatever we end up talking about today- That's right ... out in Texas. Now, how long have you been at Woodmont Christian?
Clay Stauffer: I'm starting my 20th year, uh, senior minister at Woodmont Christian Church.
Mike Glenn: What's changed in 20 years? A lot. Besides everything.
Clay Stauffer: A lot. Um, a lot has changed. The church has gotten a lot bigger. The city's gotten a lot bigger. Mm-hmm. Uh, our physical facility's gotten bigger, our membership, our, uh, staff-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Clay Stauffer: um, our budget. You name it. Uh, everything's grown, and at the same time, it's all more complex.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Like the traffic in Green Hills.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah. That's, that's been pretty steady for a long time, but-
Mike Glenn: With it. Now, y- your church is in an interesting position. One, it's, it's [00:01:00] been part of the Nashville, uh, C- Skyline Right Everybody knows the, the Woodmont Christian steeple here in the Nashville area, uh, for a long time.
Uh, where the church is located in the flow of city life- Right ... puts it at the intersection of a lot of interesting things.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, so there are, uh, people in your church who are prominent in government, who are prominent in, in the corporate life here, uh, that, that makes it... So Clay, you get caught in a, in a lot of conversations, uh, that, that come to you.
And, and one of the things that, that I wanna underline here is pastors don't have to seek this stuff.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: This stuff comes to us. Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: It finds you.
Mike Glenn: But when, but when it does come, you have to be ready to, to respond to it, to answer it, [00:02:00] and then sometimes lead that conversation. Now, you find yourself in a unique s- situation, uh, that you pastor a, what you call a purple church.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, strong feelings both ways.
Clay Stauffer: Purple's what happens when you mix red and blue.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Okay. Talk to me about that a little bit.
Clay Stauffer: So we own that. Um, I've owned that for years. Mm-hmm. We, we are right there in Green Hills, right on Hillsboro Pike, as you get close to the mall. Mm-hmm. Uh, most people have seen our church, uh, or been there at some point.
But we have lots of, uh, community leaders, business leaders, uh, political leaders, and we, uh, cover the gamut when it comes to political ideology, um, uh, opinions on positions. And so one of the things that I've done for many years since being there is I've embraced that, and I've told people that we're gonna try to model what civil conversation looks like among Christians who may disagree passionately, but who are still brought [00:03:00] together by the love of Christ.
And, uh, so I have lots of forums on topics like the Russia-Ukraine War-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Clay Stauffer: the, uh, Iran War, the Israel, uh, Gaza conflict. I have a couple of Vanderbilt professors coming in a few weeks to talk about, uh, the United States at 250 and the landscape of the midterm elections. Mm-hmm. And so we talk about those things.
We bring in experts, and we hear different opinions, and we try to model civility among people that disagree in a culture that is not doing that well.
Mike Glenn: Uh, so what do you do in your spare time with that? I mean- That, that, that's a, that's a lot to b- to, to bite off.
Clay Stauffer: It is.
Mike Glenn: Uh, I mean, we know of pastors that, uh, got in trouble because th- they were either for Trump or against Trump.
Right And the wrong church, and ended up being fired because of that, and that kind of stuff. You've chosen to embrace it.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah, let me tell you, you, something that you already know, but being a pastor [00:04:00] in the age of Trump is anything but dull.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, right.
Clay Stauffer: Um, it is anything but dull, whether you're talking about the first go-around or the, or the second go-around.
Um, but one of the sad things that's happening in North American Christianity is that churches are now sorting them- themselves out by politics.
Mike Glenn: Yes.
Clay Stauffer: So what you have- Yes ... are large, suburban, red churches- Mm-hmm ... that tend to be more conservative, and then you got smaller, inner city, social justice churches that are blue, and that's what's been happening, and that's not the way the church is supposed to be formed.
Mike Glenn: No. And, and because of the volatility of the politics, these churches don't talk to each other and don't have anything to do with each, and, and sometimes don't even recognize that each other is Christian.
Clay Stauffer: They both think they're right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: They both think that they have a monopoly on Jesus and what Jesus would want for the world and for the United States of America.
Mike Glenn: Okay. All right, let's back up [00:05:00] Uh, f- most pastors don't want to have anything to do with this. Now, I, y- you and I have talked, and I agree, y- you don't have a choice anymore- Right ... because it's being, it's being forced on you.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: But most of our friends don't want, they, they don't want to s- have anything to do with the political life of, of their congregation.
What are those things that, th- th- th- tho- those foundational questions that you have to have answered within yourself before you take on this kind of conversation in the public?
Clay Stauffer: Well, first of all, you have to acknowledge the fact that not everybody in your church is gonna agree politically, um, socially, or with a host of topics.
That's just the reality. Even churches that pretend like everybody agrees- Mm-hmm ... are kidding themselves, right? Right. So you have to start with that. Uh, secondly, you have to be very careful how you go about doing it, because there's things that I will take on in a small group or a class that I'm not gonna take on from the pulpit.
Um, the [00:06:00] pulpit is, you know, preaching is a one-way dialogue, and you don't- Right ... want to say things from the pulpit that's gonna make somebody feel like they can, have to sit there and take it, or they can get up and leave. Mm-hmm. So forums, Wednesday night conversations, small group conversations, those are very different from what you do in preaching.
Mm-hmm. I still think when it comes to preaching, yes, we're called to be bold and prophetic and, and, but we're also, uh, not trying to alienate a group of, uh, of, of people or a political- Mm-hmm ... party from the- Yeah ... pulpit. So you gotta be very careful how you go about taking this on.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. I lo- I love that line that, that you said that preaching is a one-way conversation, and I don't want someone feeling like they don't have any choice but to sit there and take it.
Clay Stauffer: Or get up and leave.
Mike Glenn: Or get up and leave.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. That's right. And I think, and so I think, um, we have to just discern what are the things that we can talk about from the pulpit, and what are the things that need to be reserved for special forums, [00:07:00] dialogues, small groups- Mm-hmm ... Sunday school classes, that kind of thing.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, in a small group setting, when there's questions going on, you could throw out a, a, a for instance, what if, I'm trying to understand, help me. Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: For example, this morning in my men's Bible study- You couldn't do that in the
Mike Glenn: pulpit, though.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. Yeah. Well, you, uh, this morning- Um- ... in my men's Bible study, I usually have a, a, a question that's based on a current event.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And so we're, right now we're in the heart of primary season, you know, across the country. Mm-hmm. And my question to them was, w- right now we see this rise in Democratic socialism in America. Mm-hmm. What i- what is causing that, and how do you feel about that? And people, no matter what their political persuasion might be, can weigh in on that.
Mm-hmm. Why do we see this happening in the country? Or you say, you know, look, we've been, the Iran war's been going on now for, you know, four or five months.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: How does it end? What's the end game? Um, how do, how do, how does our country ultimately get out [00:08:00] of it? What's the, what are the objectives? Mm-hmm.
So the way that you phrase the questions matters.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. A-
Clay Stauffer: and you have to be very intentional about that.
Mike Glenn: Right. Okay. Why is it important that the Church and you as pastor engage with these issues?
Clay Stauffer: I go back to what Karl Barth said years ago, that you approach every day with the Bible in one hand, a newspaper in the other.
You see what the Bible has to say about the issues that the world faces. Mm-hmm. I do think it's possible to go overboard, and there are some pastors, ministers that are- Mm-hmm ... way too political. All they talk about is politics. That's not me. Um, I wanna focus on the Gospels. I wanna focus on the things that unite us, 'cause I do believe there's more that unites us than divides us.
Mm-hmm. But I don't think we can put our head in the sand and not talk about the issues of the day. Mm-hmm. Because people are talking about it all the time, and if the Church can't model intelligent, informed, respectful civil dialogue, [00:09:00] then who can?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And so that's why I'm committed to doing it, even though it's not like this is all we do.
Mike Glenn: Right. So you see it, you see it as an opportunity. Um, uh, and, and I have, um, I have seen you in several forums. Uh, the, the, the book study and author studies at, um- Mm-hmm ... at, at Montgomery Bell- Mm-hmm ... that, that you're, and some of, some of your podcasts. Mm-hmm. Some of the other forums that you have held here at, at, at Woodmont.
Um, so you see this, the very act of the conversation- As being a, a vehicle of gospel communication.
Clay Stauffer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Okay. The very fact that, that, that you and I are both professing Christians, that we would sit together on a platform and say, "Here's the way Clay feels. I feel differently."
Clay Stauffer: Right.
Mike Glenn: But still model a brotherly love for each other is in itself [00:10:00] a proclamation of the gospel.
Clay Stauffer: Jesus said, "Love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength- Mm-hmm ... and love your neighbor as yourself."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: How can we know- love our neighbor if we're not willing to listen to our neighbor, even if we disagree with our neighbor?
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: Um, so I
Mike Glenn: think that- And most of the time we don't listen, we wait to talk.
That's right.
Clay Stauffer: That's exactly right.
Mike Glenn: So.
Clay Stauffer: We have two ears and one mouth.
Mike Glenn: So we never, we never really hear what the other person is saying because we're getting ready to defend our viewpoint and so we never really give them, uh, uh, the listen.
Clay Stauffer: So you mentioned some of the things. In addition to leading Woodmont, I also teach at Vanderbilt.
Right. I teach moral leadership. I did a, for a number of years at Montgomery Bell Academy, I led a class for s- graduating seniors- Mm-hmm ... it was focused on moral leadership, decision-making, and values. So that is some of my, my interest. My, my kind of research, academic interest has to do with moral leadership and, and, and how we build a life.
Mm-hmm. I think we need to teach our young people, you know, how to build a life. [00:11:00] Not, you know, in the church, yes, a Christian life that's based on the gospel and on their relationship with Christ, but also just how do you m- make good decisions? How do you live in the world? How do you pay attention- That's right, yeah
to the people that you're gonna date? What type of spouse do you wanna, uh, end up with one day? Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's a really big decision. It'll account for about 80% of your happiness or 80% of your misery. Mm-hmm. Um, what about, you know, emotional intelligence? You know, Daniel Goldman- Mm-hmm ... some of those guys from Harvard that have done incredible work on emotional intelligence.
Right. Our world needs more people that are, that are cultivating, you know, self-awareness- Mm-hmm ... empathy, you know, uh, uh, not thi- not saying everything that comes to mind. So those, to me, all of... I think Jesus was v- uh, very socially aware. Um, I think he had emotional intelligence, and I think that, that our world needs people thinking about deeper issues that have to do with morality, decision-making, value formation, and obviously when you get into the world of [00:12:00] politics, you know, those two things, um, come together.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: For better or worse
Mike Glenn: How do we encourage more Christians to be involved in the political life of our communities.
Clay Stauffer: You know, what you see right now, at least my observation, is you got a lot of really good people who would make great public servants-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Clay Stauffer: who don't wanna run for anything- And I'm
Mike Glenn: not gonna fool with it
Clay Stauffer: because they don't wanna put their family through the mud. Mm-hmm. They don't wanna put themselves through the mud, and, and so that's r- you know, that's really sad. I, um, former Governor Haslam's been a longtime friend of mine. I was with him this morning, and we've always kinda lamented the fact that good people don't wanna go into this- Mm-hmm
anymore because of what it has become. Right. And it didn't really matter which side you're on. A lot of good people just stay away from that. I, I think we have to, you know, recognize that the, the, the public service matters, and there's still a way, no matter what your [00:13:00] political party is, to do it civilly and respectfully.
But it's, it's changed a lot.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: It's become a blood sport, and winner take
Mike Glenn: all. Well, the first thing you hear is when somebody announces that they're gonna run for an office, is you hear, "Well, the opposition research has started."
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: And that is that there are people who are combing through everything you've ever said on social media.
Clay Stauffer: That's
Mike Glenn: right. Or everything, e- every picture of you that is out there on the internet.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Uh-
Clay Stauffer: And, and, and, and that's been happening and growing, and that's why a lot of people just say, "No, thanks." Mm-hmm. Um, but, but we need good people in public life.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: We need good people running for, you know, for mayor and metro council and, uh, and state legislature.
We don't need them staying away.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: But it's become a problem.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. It really is. Uh, and, and you know, uh, too many times we've had people walk into the voting booth say, "Well, th- this is the lesser of two evils."
Clay Stauffer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: When they've, when they've... But the problem is you're still [00:14:00] choosing evil. It may be the smaller evil, but you're still choosing evil.
Clay Stauffer: That's exactly right. Yeah. And then, and when people have a conversation, say, "Well, did you vote for so-and-so?" "Well, yeah, but look at what my alternative was." That's right. Yeah. You know what I mean? That's what, you know, that's the first thing you hear. Yeah. And that's sad, Mike. Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too. I mean, that's a sad state of affairs that, that we are living in a time where people can't be more excited about the person that they're supporting.
They're basically saying, "At least I'm not gonna support that person." Mm-hmm. And, um, and so that, we didn't get there overnight, and that's not gonna change overnight. Mm-hmm. But it's sad that a lot of people do feel that way, and you and I both have heard that from church members- Yeah, a number of- ... and church leaders for years.
Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah, a number of people who would do we- very well as public servants and all that. That's right. Um, for a person to, um, to engage in public life, what kind of, uh, characteristics are required?
Clay Stauffer: Well, you, um, you have to be very comfortable in your own skin. Um, you have to, [00:15:00] uh, be willing to take a shot, take criticism.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Uh, you have to be willing to put yourself out there. I also think probably the most important characteristic is you have to embody a humble spirit where you say, "Look, this is what I think." Mm-hmm. "This is what I believe." But remember what Senator Howard Baker once said, "I also might be wrong."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
And
Clay Stauffer: there's a humility that comes when you say, "I, I, I could be wrong." Mm-hmm. You know, Bill Haslam and Phil Bredesen, two governors of Tennessee, one Democrat, one Republican. Mm-hmm. They have a podcast called, you know, y- y- you know, You Might Be Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Uh, the other, you know, always remember that the other guy might be right.
Right. And, and, and so there's a humble spirit. And I also just think that if you, if you take the root word politics, polis, you know, the wellbeing of the city, you know, we're living in this age that is so focused on self. Mm-hmm. And I talk about this in the, in, in m- my recent book a little bit. So focused on self and what's in it for me You have to care [00:16:00] about the wellbeing of all, and that is very biblical.
You know, Jeremiah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, what, what makes for the building up of all. But we're, we have so many people- Jeremiah 29. That's right, Jeremiah 29. Yeah. But we're in a time where so many people are only concerned about what's in it for them and their family.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And that's why the Christian message, i- i- it's, it's centered in selflessness.
Right. If anybody wants to become my followers, deny self- Mm-hmm ... take up their cross and follow me. Not a lot of people in this culture look like they're one to deny self.
Mike Glenn: No. Well, you know, the, the, the Gospel message is you already have the kingdom. There's nothing that anybody else can give you that would make it any more valuable.
Clay Stauffer: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, whenever I preach on the, the great commandment is, you know, love God, love, love yourself, love your neighbor, I tell people everybody's response to that is, "God would not ask me to do that if He knew my neighbor." Okay? Because, right, we've all got the neighbor.
Clay Stauffer: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Right. And, um, but the real trouble we have, and a lot [00:17:00] of, of all of the trouble we have, is that we have not learned to love ourselves well.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So that makes it difficult to love the neighbor.
Clay Stauffer: Well, and then here's my theory on that, is if you think about the Golden Rule- Mm-hmm ... you know, straight out of the Sermon on the Mount, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," I'm actually convinced people are doing that. Yeah. They are treating their neighbor the way that they're treating themselves, which is not well.
Mike Glenn: Yes, right. There's a lot of- If you could hear
Clay Stauffer: some of
Mike Glenn: the self-talk, it would be-
Clay Stauffer: Right. There's a ... And, and again, you know, you have to respect yourself and be good to yourself, not in some narcissistic way.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: But a lot of people are living out the, the, uh, the, the Golden Rule. They're treating their neighbor the way that they treat themselves.
They don't treat themselves well. They don't respect themselves. Right. And that is a problem in this culture.
Mike Glenn: That's lived out in the lack of neighborless- neighborness, uh, to each
Clay Stauffer: other. And, and then you just combine that with where we are now w- with the digital age- Right ... and the technological revolution that now involves AI.
Mm-hmm. And there is [00:18:00] just a profound sense of loneliness that has pervaded our culture. And th- that has just been building for a long time. Mm-hmm. And technology is actually, we thought it would connect us. It's actually done the opposite. It connects us in a superficial way- Mm-hmm ... but it doesn't connect us on deeper levels.
Yeah, so well. And that's what the church has to offer, is you can build community, connect with people- Mm-hmm ... face-to-face on a deeper level. It's gonna be different from Instagram, different from X.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Did you see the article in the Wall Street Journal about the guy who puts up chairs in the public parks in New York?
Clay Stauffer: I
Mike Glenn: might've missed this one. And, and then, yeah, it would have a, it'd have a question. It, it says simply like, "Play me in Uno, Uno," or Uh, "Sit down and tell me about your favorite..." It, it's just, and it's just the conversation
Clay Stauffer: A chance for them to talk
Mike Glenn: to people A chance to talk to strangers and meet strangers.
Yeah. And it has started this whole phenomena- Yeah ... of just setting up tables, which is what the church is created to do.
Clay Stauffer: You know, Senator Ben Sasse, who you know is, uh, been battling pancreatic [00:19:00] cancer- Right ... and he's, he's dying. Mm-hmm. But he's, thanks to some treatments at MD Anderson, he's been given some extra time.
W- but what he's been saying on a lot of his podcast interviews is there's a couple things going on in our culture. He says, you know, "First of all, we're lonely. Second of all, we don't trust institutions."
Mike Glenn: Right. "
Clay Stauffer: And thirdly, we don't trust each other." And all those things are related.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: They're all related.
And so people are hungry. You know, I, I, I teach my kids, if you can have a genuine interest in other people in this culture, that will become a superpower.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: Because it's becoming more and more rare.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: But Sasse talks about that and, and not only that, but also his faith as he faces his own death.
Oh, wow.
Mike Glenn: Yeah,
Clay Stauffer: I saw his podcast. It's just- It, really, really powerful.
Mike Glenn: Really powerful. Yeah, yeah, you watch him and you go, "I, I don't know if I would have that kind of gut-"
Clay Stauffer: Yeah. No, that's right ...
Mike Glenn: uh, with, with that.
Clay Stauffer: Yep. And I met him when he came to Nashville and MBA years ago and, and, uh, his books are great.
He's written a couple of books. Right. He still writes for The Wall Street Journal, but [00:20:00] he's really rolling out some good wisdom on this final home stretch.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Probably one of the worst days in the history of Nashville You were in the middle of.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and we're talking about the sh- the shootings at the Covenant School-
Clay Stauffer: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: across the street from your church.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah, just down the street.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Um, tell us about that day.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah. Um, March of 2023, so just over three years ago, uh, I was sitting in my office at Woodmont, and all of a sudden heard all these, uh, ambulances and sirens and police cars racing down Hillsboro Road, and I mean, they just kept coming, kept coming.
And, and then all of a sudden, maybe 10 or 12 minutes later, they were racing back down, and I just knew something was wrong, and it was a, it was a school shooting at Covenant. Um, our church lost a little girl that day, Evelyn Dieckhaus. Um, and then we also had a number of children [00:21:00] in the building who survived that- Right
and have the trauma from having lived through that. I ended up at our neighboring church, Woodmont Baptist. My friend's the pastor there. Mm-hmm. I was trying to help him with the reunification efforts. Obviously, all the families weren't reunified. Um, they were trying to get in touch with the families who had lost loved ones before they started to, to get the kids, you know, back with their families.
And, and so yeah, that day was just like hell on earth. And, um, and then we had the first funeral for, you know, for Evelyn at our church, and then other funerals followed. And, and that honestly, that, that... I talk about that at the beginning of the, of the book. That kind of gave me the idea that we do live in a world that is broken.
There are so many things that, that, uh, just... I mean, that just knocked our city down, man. And, and, and so that was a really hard time, uh, for me- Yeah, we- ... for our community ... we had kind
Mike Glenn: of thought that we were protected from that- That's right ... as a city. That, I mean, that happened in Chicago, LA. It didn't happen in, uh, in Nashville.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. E- e- every... You think about, you know, mass shootings, [00:22:00] um, and you think, "Well, that..." You know, you hear about them all the time, but it doesn't happen, not, not here- Mm-hmm ... not with my children, right? And then it happened here. And so, um, I've unapologetically been involved with a bipartisan organization called Safer Tennessee-
Mike Glenn: Right
Clay Stauffer: uh, because I believe that you can support the Second Amendment, as I do, and also work towards more, you know, common sense, safer, uh, gun laws- Mm-hmm ... gun safety laws, and so I've done that ever since that, that incident. But also just helping people work through the pain and the grief and just, you send your child to school, they don't come home.
There's no- Hmm ... worse pain than that.
Mike Glenn: Hmm. Can't even
Clay Stauffer: imagine. Just went to, just went to school and then- Yeah ... didn't come home. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Clay Stauffer: And so yes, that day was, was horrible, but you and I've seen this many times in the ministry over the years, that sometimes the worst situations like that, you do, you see so much good come out- Yeah, yeah
of it, so much love, so much support, and we've seen that in Nashville- Right ... with all the ribbons, with all the caring, with all the, [00:23:00] you know, people- Mm-hmm ... that just stepped up and, and, um, and... But, but, but it was... It's been a journey, and it was really
Mike Glenn: hard. Tell me about, tell me about what goes through your mind and how you have processed that.
And those quiet moments when you just sit by yourself
Clay Stauffer: Well, for a couple of months around that time, I mean, I just kind of every day I woke up and just kind of felt sick. Um, especially that, you know, that March and April. But what I think about when I, when I think back on that and other situations- Mm-hmm
is that, you know, life is got pain and tragedy.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Awful things happen. Um, people make terrible decisions to, to hurt others and, um, and so as human beings we all suffer. Um, we all have to go through pain and loss. Some people have to go through incredible loss. Right. Um, my friends Mike and Katie, what they've had to go through, I, you know, I can't even, uh, I can't even get there.
Um, but [00:24:00] w- at the end of the day that's why we need each other.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: That's why we need the church. Um-
Mike Glenn: As I tell
Clay Stauffer: people- We can't get, we can't get through this on our own.
Mike Glenn: As I tell people, your turn's coming.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: It, it may be my turn right now- Yeah ... it may be your turn, but everybody gets a turn.
Clay Stauffer: Used to say you wanna have a strong faith, you know, if the storms of life come, and then along the way I changed it to when the storms of life come. Yes, that's right. Yeah. The storms are coming. Somebody once said, "You're either going into a storm, you're in the middle of a storm, or you're coming out of a storm."
Out of a storm. Yeah. You're probably one of those three. One,
Mike Glenn: one of one of three places. That's right.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah. But, but yes, that had a, a major impact on me personally, professionally. Mm-hmm. Uh, obviously our church because we lost a little girl and we had a lot of... And I also think about the kids that survived it.
Mm-hmm. We, you know, the, the, one of the first things that I did is I, I thought about, well, what can we do to support these families? And I said, "They're all gonna need counseling."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: So we raised a massive covenant fund to provide counseling for both the parents and the children, um, who were in our church, and that, you know, that ran for I think a year, year and a half.
Yeah. And that was just something we could give [00:25:00] them- Right ... in the aftermath of that as a way to say, "We love you and we care- Mm-hmm ... and we know it's gonna take a really long time. You'll never get over this, but to try to get you
Mike Glenn: through this." Yeah. But get through it in a healthy way rather than... You're gonna get through it one way or the other.
That's right. But do it in a healthy way.
Clay Stauffer: That's exactly right.
Mike Glenn: Thank you, Mr. Kyle. So-
Clay Stauffer: But that was a hard, that was a hard chapter.
Mike Glenn: Okay. In your book and in the conversation today, you have wr- you have talked about the importance of emotional intelligence.
Clay Stauffer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Talk to me about that.
Clay Stauffer: So there's two things, your IQ and your EQ- Mm-hmm
which is the short term for emotional intelligence. Your IQ is set by the time you're a certain age. Mm-hmm. You know, you and I have a certain IQ, both of which are very high I'm sure, uh, but there's nothing you can do about that. It is what it is. Emotional intelligence is actually something that you can cultivate, and you can, you can work it out.
You can get better at it. Emotional intelligence kind of has f- four or five parts. It's self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy, and social [00:26:00] skills. And these things can be taught and they can be flexed. Mm-hmm. And, and, and what I tell my Vanderbilt students, and say this in sermons, once you get to college, your IQ might help you score well on your ACT or SAT- Mm-hmm
get you into a certain school But from the time that you're in college or graduate school, your EQ is going to determine how far you go in life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Can you read a room? Can you get along with other people? Can you regulate your emotions? Can you control your anger and frustration? Um, can you put yourself in the shoes of other people and know what it's like to be them?
Can you listen to their story?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: So my theory is that IQ and EQ are important, but there's only one of the two you can actually do something about, and that's your EQ. And, and we need to teach our young people how important that is and why it matters.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Okay, so you wanna work on your EQ. What exercises would you do?
Clay Stauffer: Well, one of the [00:27:00] exercises that I give, uh, I've done this in church and at Vandy, is go to three people that you trust. So if I wanted to do this, you'd... You know, you could be one of them. I want you to tell me three things that I do well And one thing that I need to pay attention to or improve. And you can't get mad at them 'cause you asked for it.
You know? Uh, uh, you know, and, and, and if you, if, if something is repeated by multiple people that you trust- Right ... um, then you should pay attention to it. Mm-hmm. I, I, w- I had one guy, uh, tell me one time that he went to all of his kids-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Clay Stauffer: and he did that exercise, and the one thing that they said is, "Dad, you're never really present with us."
Mike Glenn: Ooh. "
Clay Stauffer: You're always pulling your phone out. You're, you're always, you know, starting a different conversation when we're halfway through telling you something." Mm-hmm. And, and so he realized that when he was spending time with his family, he wasn't really there.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: And so that's just an example of, of, of something that you c- that you can do, uh, to get feedback.
I think a lot of people are [00:28:00] afraid of feedback, uh, because they don't wanna hear something that might hurt. Well, that's the only way we're gonna grow.
Mike Glenn: That's right. No, you will hear something You
Clay Stauffer: will. That's
Mike Glenn: what I
Clay Stauffer: heard. If you ask for it- Yeah ... if you ask for it- Right ... yeah, then you'll, you'll hear it But if
Mike Glenn: you're gonna get better, that's the only way you do it.
Clay Stauffer: That's exactly right. And so again, there's, this has kinda made a comeback, I would say, over the past decade, uh, in the business circles. Uh-huh. Harvard Business Review, there's tons of articles. Daniel Goleman wrote- Right ... a great article called How to Be a Leader. Mm-hmm. Or What Makes a Leader, I think, is the title of it- Mm-hmm
that kind of gives a summary of this. But I just made a decision years ago that, that I was gonna teach this both in the church setting and in the university setting, and I do believe that Jesus was a, an emotionally intelligent person-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Clay Stauffer: based on what- Oh, yeah ... I read in the Gospels. Oh,
Mike Glenn: sure.
Clay Stauffer: And, and, uh, did he get mad?
Yes. Uh, we have examples of him getting mad, but for the most part, you know, he, he controlled his temper. Mm-hmm. He kept his cool. Yeah. Um, he had a gravitas, a presence about him. And so I think that this [00:29:00] is a, a field that needs to be studied more.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Jesus never reacted. He always acted. But, but his action was never determined by somebody else's behavior.
Clay Stauffer: The other thing Jesus did a lot was he went away.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: He went away to the wilderness. He went away to Gethsemane. He spent a lot of time on his own- Yeah ... being with God.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And- As was his habit.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. Uh, so- That's exactly right. And so, um, that's something we need to pay attention to as
Mike Glenn: well. Yes, as well.
Uh, we've talked about leadership, we've talked about, um, a, a, variety of things. How do you determine what is most important?
Clay Stauffer: So I think that there's a difference between your stated values and your lived values. Meaning, a lot of people if you ask them, "What's, what's most important?" They would tell you, "Well, my f- my marriage is important.
My family's important. You know, my kids are important. My work's important."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: But then you say, well, let's look at how your time and your money breaks down, and those things may not line up.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. What's [00:30:00] on your calendar and what's in your checkbook- That's right ... tells me what matters
Clay Stauffer: to you. That's exactly right.
And so, you know, as pastors, you and I've been saying for years- Mm-hmm ... you tell me what's... You tell me those two things, and I'll tell you what matters to you. Mm-hmm. An exercise that I... Another exercise that I like to do is if you take 24 hours a day times seven days a week, uh, then that's roughly, uh, what, 160- 68
168 hours, I think. 168 hours, mm-hmm. So let's, let's take out 68 hours for sleeping and meals and whatnot. You have 100 waking hours in the week. Chart how you're spending that time.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Break it down on a pie chart. Mm-hmm. Look at the big... A- a- and see if it aligns with what you say your- Yeah, keep a time audit.
Mm-hmm ... what you say your priorities are. Mm-hmm. Because what's happening, and Arthur Brooks and others have, have documented this, is we are spending so much time doom scrolling and getting on social media- Mm-hmm ... and going down these rabbit holes. W- we're spending time on time sucks. It's taking away from the things that really matter.
That's right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And I, and I [00:31:00] was, I was reading the other day that, that the, the, the social media doesn't say, "Hey, come spend all day with me." It says, "Give me 90 seconds."
Clay Stauffer: Right.
Mike Glenn: Well, and, and another 90, and, you know- And
Clay Stauffer: it just keeps going ...
Mike Glenn: and you've used up your whole day, 90 seconds at a time.
Clay Stauffer: And, and it really, I mean, these phones, these little mini computers in our pocket, we have to have them for certain things.
Right. Like phone calls and text messages- Mm-hmm ... and emails and the weather and whatever, but it then sucks us into all this other stuff that's not healthy.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: And people really have a hard time, uh, limiting and balancing- But the, the- ... the amount of time that they spend on it ...
Mike Glenn: they admit that they design it so you can't get off of it.
Clay Stauffer: It,
Mike Glenn: it's got
Clay Stauffer: an
Mike Glenn: addictive- With the dopamine hits and all
Clay Stauffer: that, yeah ... it's got an
Mike Glenn: addictive quality. It is very addictive.
Clay Stauffer: You know, you, you've, uh, you and I both have heard the, that old children's sermon where you take a, a big, like, glass cylinder and th- and then you have three or four big rocks- Right ... and a whole bunch of small rocks, right?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Well, if you put the big rocks in [00:32:00] the cylinder first, faith-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Clay Stauffer: family, career, friendships, then the small rocks are gonna fit around that. If you put all the small rocks in there first- You ain't got no room ... and you try to put the big rocks in, there's not room.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: And unfortunately, that's how a lot of people live their lives.
They're putting all the small rocks in there, and then they're trying to fit the things that they say are most important, uh, on top, and there's not room.
Mike Glenn: Not room. So if, if I am a young person, a Vanderbilt student, a young adult, how do I begin to find out what my priorities are?
Clay Stauffer: Well, you first of all pay attention to where your time and money is already going.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: Right? So that is a telltale.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: You know, w- do the 100-hour challenge. Look at your bank statement or your bank account. Mm-hmm. But I also think that if you're a young person, you're still at a stage of your life where you can talk to mentors, professors, pastors- Mm-hmm ... parents, a- a- and get advice on, "How should I spend my time?"
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: Right? Uh, you know, how, what should I [00:33:00] be investing in? What types of friends should I be building? Mm-hmm. When I do start dating and think about getting married, what kind of spouse do I wanna spend- Mm-hmm ... the rest of my life with, right? Mm-hmm. So I think getting advice from mentors, but, but also, you know, asking yourself, "If I'm gonna build my life-
Mike Glenn: Really
Clay Stauffer: how do I wanna build it?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And decisions matter.
Mike Glenn: Do you suggest they write those down?
Clay Stauffer: Yes. Um, well, I, I do suggest that they write it down. I'll also give them plenty of books that talk about those things- Yeah ... so they can think about the, the priorities. And, and, and look, y- you know, you know this. Your, your priorities, i- in some ways they will change over time, in some ways they won't.
Mm-hmm. But they will change over time. Different stages of life. Right. You know, I've always loved, um, uh, David Brooks' s, uh, first and second mountain-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Clay Stauffer: you know- Got it. Right ... kind of metaphor. Mm-hmm. The first mountain is all about success and- Mm-hmm ... climbing the ladder, getting established, economic mobility and opportunity.
And, and then you shift to the second mountain, and it's more about, okay, what's all this for? Yeah, legacy. Deeper meaning- [00:34:00] Yeah. Mm-hmm ... legacy, friendships, faith, spirituality. Mm-hmm. I think that's just a, you know, he just does a good job of rolling out that metaphor. And, and sometimes you do have to fight the battles of the first mountain to then move to the second mountain.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: Um, but I think a lot of people spend their entire lives on the first mountain, and they never find peace. Yeah. And enough is never enough.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And that becomes a problem.
Mike Glenn: Right. Tell us about your new book, What the World Needs Now: Virtue and Character in an Age of Chaos.
Clay Stauffer: So, uh, I do talk about what, what you and I just talked about, the covenant situation- Mm-hmm
at the beginning of the book. Right. And, um, and I, I would say that probably was the impetus for me thinking about writing this book. What I do in this book is I name a lot of the challenges that we face as a culture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: And those challenges include some of the things we've mentioned, loneliness, um, a lot of anger, um, deep political polarization, an, uh, an unhealthy addiction to social media where people are basically posting about their lives and not living their [00:35:00] lives, and then guys like Jonathan Haidt have documented the rise in depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideations.
Mm-hmm. So I name a lot of those things at the beginning, but the chapters of the book, uh, I tried to say, "Here are the things we have to get back to." And so I talk about faith, hope, and love- Mm-hmm ... peace and patience, emotional intelligence, gaining perspective, resilience- Mm-hmm ... um, not having contempt in our relationships and, and in our marriages and our friendships.
Mm-hmm. Um, how do we listen? Um, how do we persevere? So I tried to write the book as an antidote to the challenges and the problems that our culture is now facing. We all know the challenges, and I do name them. Mm-hmm. But I didn't wanna spend the whole book just talking- Right ... about the problem.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, talking about the negatives and all these things.
Clay Stauffer: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Now, now here's what I love about it. You got short chapters
Clay Stauffer: That's right ...
Mike Glenn: short chapters- Yep ... for you kind of, there's just enough in each chapter to go, "Hmm." That's right. And then you can, then you [00:36:00] can do some thinking about it.
Clay Stauffer: Yeah. Uh, uh, I published it with Abingdon- Mm-hmm ... and we talked about this, and I said, "I, I want this book to be shorter," because rightly or wrongly, we're living in an age where people are not reading longer books.
Mike Glenn: No.
Clay Stauffer: Um, I mean, some people will read longer books. You and I will still read longer books, but the, the general public, y- you know, is not gonna read longer books. And so that was part of the plan, was I wanted this to be a book that could be used in churches, in schools, in families- Mm-hmm ... to talk about these issues, but it wasn't gonna be too much.
Yeah. And I think we struck a good balance with it. Hopefully we did.
Mike Glenn: What's in the future for you?
Clay Stauffer: Well, uh, we just broke ground at Woodmont on a, uh, $22 million, uh, addition to our church, so our campus is growing again.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: Um, it's a family life center with youth rooms, uh, new classrooms, a caf- a cafe gathering area, courtyard area, then, uh, parking, uh, more parking that we desperately need.
So continuing to lead there. Um, continuing to teach at Vanderbilt, more leadership in [00:37:00] the undergrad- Mm-hmm ... university, which again, uh, I love working with undergrads, but it's really trying to teach them how to build a life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Clay Stauffer: Um, some of them are Christian- The, the Arthur Brooks- ... some of them are not Christian
the Arthur
Mike Glenn: Brooks stuff, huh?
Clay Stauffer: That's right. Yeah. Arthur Brooks, David Brooks- Mm-hmm ... um, you know, th- those types of things. Daniel Goleman- Right ... emotional intelligence. Those are the kinds of things that we use. Use my own book there. So I've, I've been doing that since 2019. Um, I'm also, you know, married with three children, 16, uh, 14, and 10, so we got a 10th grader- So you're,
Mike Glenn: you're just getting stupider every day, aren't
Clay Stauffer: you?
That's exactly right. Is that about it? 10th, 10th grader, ninth grader, you know, they don't even... I don't even think they're we're... They don't think we're that cool anymore. Yeah, yeah. So the, the, the fourth grader's the only one that wants to hang out with us anymore. Um, but so, so I would say between church, you know, uh, teaching, um, and family- Mm-hmm
I'm staying pretty busy.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: And then trying to write. You know, I still write for The, The Tennessean and, and write books when I can. Yeah. So all that together, uh, keeps me, keeps me busy.
Mike Glenn: Keeps you... Yeah, [00:38:00] you're just, uh... Well, I hope you write more. This is worth it. What the World Needs Now, Clay Stauffer, pastor of Woodmont Christian Church, and, uh, guest on the podcast today.
Thanks for being here, friend.
Clay Stauffer: Mike, always good to be with you. Thank you for having me.
