The Gospel Hasn't Changed, The Audience Has | Darrell Gwaltney
For generations, pastors preached to people who already knew the Bible. Today, many people walk into church with little or no biblical foundation.
In this episode, Mike Glenn sits down with New Testament scholar, former pastor, and former Belmont University dean Darrell Gwaltney to discuss what it means to faithfully communicate an unchanging gospel in a rapidly changing culture. Together, they explore why pastors must understand the questions people are asking, how ministry has changed, and why there has never been a better time to share the gospel.
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Mike Glenn: Darryl Gwaltney, how are you? Welcome. Thanks, Mike. I'm glad you are here.
Dr. Gwaltney: I'm doing well, thanks. How you doing?
Mike Glenn: I'm good. I'm good. Let's see. You are a New Testament scholar, former pastor, former dean. Now you are, uh, running a couple of studies for Lilly Foundation- Mm-hmm ... on preaching and all of that. Right.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, let's continue and invite our friends into a conversation that you and I often have about training of ministers and, and how that's shaping in the new challenges we're facing in the church. Mm-hmm. Uh, both of us are very committed to the local church, and I spent a long time thinking about the challenges of the local church.
All right. Let's go back to the basics. Let's not assume anything.
Dr. Gwaltney: Sure.
Mike Glenn: Do ministers need to be trained?
Dr. Gwaltney: Yes. Uh-
Mike Glenn: Okay. You want to expound on that? Sure. Or we just gonna, we just gonna go with it .
Dr. Gwaltney: Well, I, I think there's, [00:01:00] uh, uh, in first place, if we're, if we're biblical-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: we, we are. There's places in the scripture which I think call us to be trained and, and show us.
Mm-hmm. Uh, Jesus gathered disciples around him. He trained them, showed them how to do that. We find lots of, um, examples in the New Testament, primarily Paul and, and Timothy- Mm-hmm ... Titus, um, but many other places, John Mark, Barnabas, Silas, where, where leaders gathered other people around them, and they showed them how to do ministry.
Mm-hmm. So I think there's a biblical example for that. I think practically, though, uh, I'm very well aware that here I am, you know, in the kind of the sunset years of, of my, my ministry career, almost 50 years of ministry. I remember, I now, I remember people early on who poured into me.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: Um, pastors in my local churches- Mm-hmm
who encouraged me, called [00:02:00] me into ministry, supported me, gave me opportunities to preach and teach-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: even when I had no idea what I was doing. Uh, I- Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Can we stop just right now and thank God for all those churches that listened to bad sermons- Oh,
Dr. Gwaltney: yes, I- ...
Mike Glenn: from, from, from the first time you preached
Dr. Gwaltney: and- One of my favorite, uh, br- preaching stories is the very first sermon I preached on, um, a salt and light text in Matthew- Mm-hmm
Matthew 5:13-16. As I preached it, I was, I was just 18 years old. Mm-hmm. Uh, 22 minutes, uh, at Pilgrims Rest Baptist Church in Ware, Missouri, a church I had grown up in. I came down, and people were shaking my hands, and Mrs. Stone, former school teacher, comes up to me. She was well into her retirement years, and she did the double handshake- Mm-hmm.
Sure, I see ... where she shook and then, which means you don't, you don't get away till she's finished. Yeah. That's right, yeah. You gonna hear what I say. She looked at me, and she said, "Brother Darryl, it's okay. You'll do better next time." Now, that was one of the best pieces- Yeah ... of advice I ever. She taught me something- Right
that every time that I preach, I can do better.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: I can [00:03:00] grow in that. But, but beyond examples like that, I, I am deeply indebted to professors that I had, both in college and in seminary- Mm-hmm ... and grad school. Uh, and I'm indebted by just yesterday, I had an exchange with a former student of mine. I know of a church that needs a pastor, so I reached out to this student and I said, "Are you ready for a change?"
And the student said, "Actually, I just accepted a call at this church in Virginia-
Mike Glenn: Oh ...
Dr. Gwaltney: so I can't do that." And so we had this moment-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: where the student was sharing with me, uh, and the student graduated a dozen years ago. And we had this small little Cardinal-Cub connection, and at graduation she gave me a Cubs hat.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And I gave her a little stuffed cardinal. She's a Cubs fan, I'm a Cardinals fan.
Mike Glenn: Bitter enemies.
Dr. Gwaltney: So I told her, I, I, I showed the student, I said, "Look what's hanging on my wall, your Cubs hat." And the student said, "Look what's on my bookshelf." Yeah. Little [00:04:00] cardinal. And so, you know, the value of teaching isn't measured necessarily by grades.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: It's measured by the investment in the lives of people, and it's measured by people taking a chance on you and talking to you. Mm-hmm. So I, I think definitely training
Mike Glenn: is critical. Okay, you've made an, you've made an interesting transition in the course of my question is, is it important to be trained.
And now you started talking about the joy of doing the training. Oh, yes. Yeah. And the joy of investment. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So, uh, so let's follow that.
Dr. Gwaltney: Sure. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, how... I mean, one, one of, one of the, uh, uh, core teachings of, of, of ECN is that now more than being a CEO and running all the administrative things of the church and being a good leader in, in that kind of way, that pastors have to commit themselves to the training, the identification and [00:05:00] training of the next generation of leaders.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Okay? And so you switch from the people who invested in you-
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: to the, the, uh, uh, the continual payoff and joy of having invested in someone else and see them succeed.
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? So talk to me now about, 'cause this is gonna get into to a lot of stuff that we're gonna talk about today, about the challenges in the church, uh, uh, uh, uh, of, of what's going on in America right now.
What is it about the calling to pastor a church that demands one of the aspects of that, and it's often overlooked, is the identification and training of the next generation of leaders? Mm-hmm. And how important it is to walk around with your spiritual radar on so you can point out to the people going, "You need to pay attention to your life."
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm. [00:06:00]
Mike Glenn: Uh, God's up to something. I, I- Right ... can remember three or four deacons in my little Mill Village church in H- in Huntsville, Alabama literally walked up to me, pointed at me and said, "Pay attention to your life." I've never forgotten that quote. "Pay attention to your life, Michael."
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: God is up to something.
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And I was 10, 12 years old.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: And these people were seeing it before I did.
Dr. Gwaltney: Well, I think that, I mean, I chose the word investment- Mm-hmm ... because I think it's a decision that w- w- we make. Mm-hmm. Uh, I, I mean, uh, Jesus discipled and called disciples to disciple, so I think we're called to disciple.
And, and that means investing in relationships. And so for example, in my time as a dean of religion at Belmont University, almost 20 years of that, I don't know the exact number, but I had, I had [00:07:00] somewhere five, between five and 600 students that were religion majors over those nearly 20 years.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Dr. Gwaltney: Um, not all of them continued on into what we would consider classic pastoral ministry in a church.
Um, a good many of them did. Mm-hmm. Uh, s- some went on into other kind of ministry positions. Um, some are not active in the church, uh, or not active in ministry in the church. It might be in a community. Some maybe have moved away from faith a little bit, which is part of the journey of life for people.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: Um, but I, I can... Out of, out of that, you know, 500 plus, uh, I, I've stayed in touch with many of them, and, and that's a part of what I feel my responsibility is. If I, if I invest in them, I would always say to them, "I'm here for you-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: for as long as [00:08:00] I'm here."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. It's,
Dr. Gwaltney: it's not about me being your dean, your professor.
It's about me believing in you and wanting to be available to you. Mm-hmm. So I mentioned the conversation I had yesterday- Right ... with my former student. Just the day before yesterday, I spent an hour and a half talking to a former student in a coaching conversation and, and both laughing that, that this, this s- former student is now almost 40.
And I met him when he was 17. So for 23 years. Yeah. Yeah. For 23 years, I've been, I've been following this-
Mike Glenn: In some of the most formative years.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right. Exactly. Uh, important years of their life. Yeah Encouraging him, uh, leading him. And so I think that, um, I think it's about our taking the initiative to do that.
I don't know that that's... I, I don't know that you have to be a pastor to do that. Mm-hmm. I think that you, to be a follower of Jesus, to encourage and equip other believers is what we always do. To recognize people who have leadership ability and to try to help [00:09:00] encourage them to discover that, give them opportunities- Mm-hmm
to explore it is part of what we do in, in minis- as ministry leaders.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. You spend a lot of time with pastors. I spend a lot of time with pastors. What they are being asked to do and, and demanded of them in the local church, and what you and I experienced so long ago when we were in our first churches, is very, very different-
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: now. How have you, uh, uh, noticed that difference?
Dr. Gwaltney: I re- I remember, um, hmm, how long ago this... This would be almost 30 years ago now, when I was, I was pastoring- Mm-hmm ... at that time. And, and the reason I located it 30 years ago, it was about the time when, um, PowerPoint-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: began to- ... to, to kind of, to develop. And so- When the
Mike Glenn: plague of PowerPoint-
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah, so there was this expe-
was released on the world ... there was expec- expectation. Right ... because you had personal computers. There was, there was kind of a [00:10:00] developing expectation that in your sermons you would use some sort of, like, visuals- Mm-hmm ... or even media- Mm-hmm ... uh, sound, and, and that, but you, your sermon would be not just vocal, but it would have this sort of like visual, multi-sensory kind of experience.
Mm-hmm. And I, I sort of enjoyed doing that, and I experimented with it and, and, and saw both the limits and, and the benefits of it. And the social media revolution doesn't even compare to PowerPoint. I mean- Yeah ... yeah, PowerPoint doesn't compare to that. I mean, I think since 2010, uh, maybe the last 15, 16 years with the advent of, uh, phones and tablets and broadband and, and the consequent app- apps like Twitter- Mm-hmm
and Snapchat- Mm-hmm ... and Instagram and Facebook- Mm-hmm ... and, you know, the, the litany of them. I think now that, you know, when you and, when you and I were starting to preach, they would tell us, "Oh, you got to... Y- you know, [00:11:00] people, people are watching a TV show that's 30 minutes long. About 23 minutes, that's all they're gonna pay attention."
That's right. You got 23 minutes. Mm-hmm. You get about, like, seven minutes, and they get a commercial break, so you got to break- That's right. That's right ... you got to design your sermon around that.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Dr. Gwaltney: Uh, now people's attention span is much, much briefer than that. Eight seconds. And it's not even like...
It's not seven minutes, but it's not even about that. It's the best way I thought. They hold the distraction in their hand. Right. Uh, and people have been trained by that.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Dr. Gwaltney: So I think, I think one of the challenges for pastors today i- in preaching is the, the communication process is much more complex.
Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And,
Dr. Gwaltney: and then for us to mix into that layer into it, if you would, as if you were making some kind of a multi-layer cake, is the challenges in our culture, s- secularism.
Mike Glenn: [00:12:00] Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: Uh, what we're now really speaking openly about is Christian nationalism, some sort of creation, some sort of expression of Christianity that doesn't feel-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Dr. Gwaltney: right. Um, other religions. And, uh, so all of those things are there in ways that they weren't, at least I wasn't aware of them when I was starting
Mike Glenn: out in ministry. Well, with, uh, with the social media and the change of, of our communities and all, the things that used to be far away are now immediate.
Exactly. See, I, I tell, I tell folks, "When I was growing up, if you wanted to do something bad, you had to go to the other side of town."
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And half the, half the fun was getting to the other side of town- Sure ... and back without being seen by one of your parents' friends-
Dr. Gwaltney: Right ...
Mike Glenn: who would rat you out in a minute.
Right. Because they knew he was on the other side of town. There's no good reason to go to the other side of town, so he's in, he's in trouble for something. My, my
Dr. Gwaltney: mom [00:13:00] would say to me, "I don't want to hear you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be."
Mike Glenn: Exactly right.
Dr. Gwaltney: It was real simple.
Mike Glenn: Exactly
Dr. Gwaltney: right. I don't want to hear-
Mike Glenn: Yeah
that
Dr. Gwaltney: you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be. So I knew what that meant.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Dr. Gwaltney: There were people watching me.
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah. Rat you out in a minute.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And but now with, with, with social media, uh, the thing of, of, you know, I had to be ready at 11:00 on Sunday morning. You know? That was the whole job.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: Do what you have to do, but be ready on Sunday morning. Now the, the conversation is 24/7.
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And you, your church expects you to be part of the faith conversation, talking to them about how you live out this faith with the problems that they are facing-
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ... 24/7, uh, every week.
Dr. Gwaltney: Well, I think that, and- I, I think that's challenged as well by the fact that when, when y- you and I, 30 [00:14:00] years ago, 40 years ago, would stand up to preach, uh, our, our...
people were in dialogue with us
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Dr. Gwaltney: And the dialogue that we created for them with scripture So weekly we would gather. We felt- Mm-hmm ... the responsibility, uh, to be good interpreters of the text, and to find a way to share it with our congregation that would be meaningful to them, memorable, uh, and, and would be effective for helping them grow in discipleship.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: That was our key task. Mm-hmm. Well now, I think what challenges, a, a challenge that pastors face is that there's a lot of other people in the room.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. A lot of other seats at that board of directors-
Dr. Gwaltney: Exactly. There's a lot of other people breathing in that conversation. And so when that pastor stands up there to preach, on any given Sunday now, stands there to preach, i- if, if they're thoughtful and, and, and they [00:15:00] are, th- they are trying to be aware of the other kinds of conversations.
Um, yeah, interestingly enough, we're honest about calling them influencers. Mm-hmm. People develop a persona to influence other people. And so now pastors, when they stand up on any time to preach or teach, uh, are aware of influencers, and people in the congregation are being influenced. Mm-hmm. So there are other voices interpreting that text, interpreting the discipleship that they're being called-
Mike Glenn: Mm
Dr. Gwaltney: to live into at that moment. It, it, it's a, it, it's exciting in one way.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: Because you have to really work hard.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: But it's something that a pastor needs to accept as a reality and work into that.
Mike Glenn: And be very careful with, 'cause you and I know of folks who, you know, one bad [00:16:00] tweet or-
Dr. Gwaltney: Sure ...
Mike Glenn: podcast and blog and there goes the career.
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There goes the opportunity to do the ministry.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, now you, you intersect with, uh, with, uh, Christianity in America at a lot of different levels. Uh, you're a researcher, New Testament scholar, pastor, all of that. You taught, uh, pastors coming up. So what, what are the changes you've noticed?
Dr. Gwaltney: Oh. I- in like, in, in my teaching environments? In...
Mike Glenn: Well, well, yeah. And, and, and the line I'm, I'm trying to pull is, okay, you went fr- you know, you, you were pastoring in Florida, came up here to be the dean of school of Belmont. Uh, and, and so you pull that thread of what you had had in the pulpit. Now you're dealing with folks who are coming to you going, "Hey, I feel, I feel called to the ministry now.
I want to be trained to the ministry." And you did that for 20 years. So how did those- [00:17:00] folks change. I mean, one of the things that we talked about is y- you don't have many people now who want to pastor a church. Right. They, they want the same degree, uh, that, that you and I have, but they wanna do it in some kind of nonprofit expression- Right
outside of the church. So-
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah, so there's a couple of ways I could answer that. Mm-hmm. A couple different directions I could go. Let me try to build a response for you. Part of it is personal. I grew up in rural Missouri. I went to Baptist churches.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: I went to a Baptist college. I went to a Baptist seminary.
I went to a Baptist graduate school. I went to a school, my first teaching assignment was a school that was Baptist.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Is your therapist helping you work through all this
Dr. Gwaltney: now? Yeah, so, you know, I, I was in, I was in that community of faith. Right. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Same story.
Dr. Gwaltney: And, uh, I, I did my dissertation on a, a, a Roman Catholic Jesuit, a priest.
And I remember, uh, not telling my mother for a long [00:18:00] time- ... who I was studying because I was concerned that she would, she would think that- She would shut it down ... I had lost my faith. Right, yeah. Okay? So, so I grew up in that kind of an environment. And when I was in Florida, and I taught at college for a while, and then I began pastoring a church.
And when I began pastoring that church in, in Palm Beach County, Florida, I realized I was in a different world than what I grew up in in rural Missouri.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And that there were people who, who didn't have my, my kind of cultural connections.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: It was, it wasn't just about diversity, uh, you know, racially, or diversity, i- you know, economically.
It was about people that had different religious experiences. World
Mike Glenn: views.
Dr. Gwaltney: Different world views. World views. Mm-hmm. Or no religion.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And, and I found myself needing to really think through what's, what am I really trying to proclaim here?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: I'm, I'm not talking to the people who have [00:19:00] already accepted this.
I'm trying to find a way to communicate to them. And so that was a, that was a- Yeah ... real turning point for me.
Mike Glenn: All right. Good point. Let's underline this.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You and I started, and, and, and a lot of my career was, was spent preaching and leading a church where the gospel was reinforced In their community.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: And okay, for, for instance, in my home, uh, my, both my parents are deeply religious. They knew all of my school teachers-
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: who, if they didn't go to our church, went to another church. You know, Baptist, Methodist, the, you know, occasional Episcopalian, something like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they all had that basic Christian worldview.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Uh, and if, even if you didn't believe it, you knew, you knew the stories-
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: uh, of, of the Bible 'cause, you know, you had grown up with them or whatever.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: Now, uh, and, uh, [00:20:00] the, the conversations with the people who had no context-
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: no background, uh, and one of the things that, that I, that I tell preachers you probably do too, when you refer to another story in the Bible, don't assume that your congregation knows that story.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: So when you say, "Well, you remember Jonah." Mm-hmm. They don't.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You've gotta go back and explain Jonah.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yes.
Mike Glenn: So now we're in a culture, so it pushes you back going, "Okay." It's not being reinforced anywhere, so
why do I believe what I believe, and, and why do I preach this? And then h- understanding those foundations, how do I get this across to people with no foundations?
Dr. Gwaltney: Right. Yeah, so a story that I, I often refer to about that time. This is, this is almost 40 years ago.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: Um, when I was a pastor at this church in Palm Beach County, and, uh, after service one day, a young man comes up to me and he [00:21:00] says, uh, s- I intro- I introduced mys- I went to
Well, no, I went up to him and I introduced myself to him and, and said, "Good to have you here today. It's your first visit." He said, "No, this is the fifth time I've been here."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And I, I was like, "Well, I'm sorry I'm just now meeting you." He said, "No, this is the first time I've come in the room." And I said, "What?"
And he said, "Well, the first time I came, I pulled up in the parking lot. I'd never been to church. I don't know what this is all about, but I felt like I should go to church. So I pulled up in the parking lot and I saw all these people and I was like, 'Oh, I can't do that.'" Yeah. "And I drove a- drove away."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: He said, "The second time I came up, I got out of my car, I made it halfway across the parking lot, and people started coming out of the building. I said, 'Oh, I can't do that,' and went back to my car. The third time I came here, uh, I made it in the building and somebody, somebody said hi to me, started asking me what church I went to- Yeah
my family, and I was like, uh, I, I just did the best I could and I left." "The fourth time, I came in and I, and I stood outside the door and I wanna watch what was going on. I was like, 'I don't know what they're doing in there. I don't know if I can do that.'" Mm. "I left. So today I came and I stayed." And I said, "So what was it like?"
He said, [00:22:00] "I had no clue what was going on in here." And I said, "Okay. You come back. My responsibility is to help this-" Yeah ... make sense of this for you.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And so he came and he continued and, and at some point in the future I had the privilege of- A baptism ... baptizing him, and he came to know Christ and, and it, but it was, it was a real
And I have a, a lot of stories like that- Mm-hmm ... from Florida.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And since then, that this was a person who was curious about the gospel. There was something in his heart.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: He was looking for something. And, and he courageously kept coming until he could be in that conversation. When I'm, when I came to Nashville as, uh, a dean of religion at Belmont, that was really informing my experience a lot.
Mm-hmm. As I h- how ... what's this next generation of believers like? And, and not long after I came, Belmont moved away from its exclusive Baptist [00:23:00] identity- Mm-hmm ... and, and focused on being ecumenical. And now nearly 20 years later, Belmont has stayed true to that. Mm-hmm. It's a strong Christian university. Um, and, and it's ecumenical, and I would sometimes tell students, I'd say, "We do messy Christianity around here."
Yeah. Because, because we don't all look at it the same way. Yeah. But what I began to see with these students as they would come in over the years- And particularly as we began to attract more and more students who came to Belmont who were from other traditions than were Baptist, uh, that they brought with them their own community expectations.
Mm-hmm. They brought with them their own sense of what it meant to be called into ministry. And, and one of the things I began to learn was that as a Baptist, I had a real clear sense in my own experience- Mm-hmm ... if I was calling somebody to ministry, and you probably did this too. Right. I said at the end of, end of the worship service, "Do you wanna [00:24:00] come to know Jesus?
Do you wanna join the church, or you wanna commit to full-time Christian service?"
Mike Glenn: Full-time Christian service, yes. And
Dr. Gwaltney: full-time, full-time Christian service meant do you want to be a pastor or a youth pastor or a missionary?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: I mean, when I was growing up, that's what that meant. By the time I'm talking with these students in Belmont, when I come here in 2004, and I'm meeting them from all over the church, their sense of vocation, for some of them it meant to be a pastor or a youth pastor, missions.
Some of them it meant to work in the community- Mm-hmm ... to do nonprofit work.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: Some it meant to be a musician. And I had to begin to think really about what is ministry about. Right. What is it, and how can I-
Mike Glenn: Or I'm gonna take a secular job to make money so I can do-
Dr. Gwaltney: Right ...
Mike Glenn: so two months out of the year, I can take off and go work in Haiti.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah. One of... I, I- Yeah ... have a student in my mind right now that, that we had a degree that allowed students to put ministry and business together. Mm-hmm. The student did [00:25:00] that, and the student worked, uh, in a local, you know, food business type, uh, business here in Nashville. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, when graduated, the student went to Atlanta and did a franchise for them but has been very active in ministry.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: So I, yeah, so I think I learned that, and I think what's really important for us to learn is that, uh, the sense of what it means to be called into is, might be different than it was 40 years ago. Some of that is the fact that I grew up in rural Baptist churches, where you had a pastor and maybe a part-time music minister.
Mm-hmm. And now Brentwood Baptist Church, oh, my goodness, um, multiple pastors. Uh, uh, church large. I, one of the pastor group I worked with is with pastors of high capacity churches. Many of these pastors have many people in their staff.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: People called to do ministry in pastoral ways, many different formats.
So I think it's always encouraging for us or helpful for us to be listening to [00:26:00] students, listening to others about how they understand God's at work in their life- Mm-hmm ... and, and training them for that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Now it's not unusual for someone to show up To want a major in religion without having that foundation that you and I came in.
Oh, yeah. They're actually coming to find that foundation-
Dr. Gwaltney: Right ...
Mike Glenn: and establish it through their coursework and through their schoolwork.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah, y- definitely. Um I remem- when I was a student in college, I remember sitting in my New Testament and my Old Testament classes and thinking, "Oh man, I don't know anything about the Bible."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And I grew up in churches where I went Bible study all the time. Yeah, yeah. And I knew a fair bit, but I didn't think I knew anyth- Um, as I've worked with students, I, I, I've found and, and just, uh, uh, n- on a, not a, a lack of knowledge [00:27:00] really about the scripture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: N- not a lack of interest.
Mike Glenn: No.
Dr. Gwaltney: There's, there's a difference. No,
Mike Glenn: that's right.
Dr. Gwaltney: So I think you can... If somebody's in no scripture, you can say, "Well, you, you don't really," and no, they're interested. Mm-hmm. They just haven't had the opportunity to learn. They haven't been as immersed in a Biblical culture- Mm-hmm ... as I was when I was growing up, or perhaps you were growing up.
And so that becomes the exciting thing about teaching them how to read scripture, introducing scripture to them- Mm-hmm ... and to own it for themselves.
Mike Glenn: I had a young person tell me one time that they went to LifeWay when LifeWay still had stores, uh, to buy a Bible, and I said, "Great, which one did you buy?"
And they said, "Oh, I didn't buy one." I said, "Why? Had, have you been over there, Mike? There are thousands." I said, "Yeah." I said, "But," they said, "No, I di- I didn't want to get the wrong one." Right. Yeah. "I was gonna come back and talk to you." Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Dr. Gwaltney: yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a whole like... I mean, that's a whole nother conversation about when you have a, when you have somebody, whether it's a, a college student or-
Mike Glenn: Okay
Dr. Gwaltney: or a, a, a [00:28:00] person who's interested in ministry. And you know, some of the work that we've done in the Engage Church Network and School of Ministry- Right ... is trying to help equip and support- Some of these young people ... people who are interested in ministry. And so often it's like, "I don't wanna get it wrong."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: Like, I can't tell you how many t- as I've taught preaching to students- Mm-hmm ... over the years, I, I don't wanna get it wrong if I say the wrong thing.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: And that's usually when I tell the Mrs. Stone story. Uh, like, like you should know a thing or two about scripture. I should know a thing or two about it, but we've been doing it for decades.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: And there have been plenty of times where we've stood up and spoken, I know it's the case for me, perhaps you too. Nah. And afterwards I was like, "Hmm, I didn't do that quite right."
Mike Glenn: Nah.
Dr. Gwaltney: I can't do that- That,
Mike Glenn: that, that never happened to
Dr. Gwaltney: me. I gotta do that better next time. And so I think, you know, when we're working with people who are exploring ministry- Mm-hmm
either they wanna be a [00:29:00] pastor or they're a college student or a similar student, I, I really think it's okay to say- Mm-hmm ... um, "Yeah, it's all right if you don't understand it. Yeah, you got that wrong. What, what, what led you to make that decision?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. "
Dr. Gwaltney: And how can we be better informed next time?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah. All right.
I wanna, I wanna ask one of our favorite questions, but I wanna ask it a different way.
Dr. Gwaltney: Sure.
Mike Glenn: All the changes that you see- What excites you about these changes and opportunities and challenges?
Dr. Gwaltney: It makes us, makes us take it all more seriously. It makes us realize, like I, I grew up in a culture where it was the churches were growing and-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Dr. Gwaltney: and people decided to go to church 'cause it was kind of the cultural thing to do. And, and in my little bubble, the people go to church, you grow a church and- Mm-hmm ... you know, people would always come. You do high, high attendance days, people would show up for those. And it wasn't easy. It was, but it was like y- you got a system.
You could work that. Mm-hmm. [00:30:00] Uh, we can't take anything for granted now except one thing
It's an emotional thing for me because it's so powerful, and that is that the gospel's powerful and effective-
Mike Glenn: Mm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: for salvation. Romans 1, Paul writes that to the early church, the gospel is powerful and effective.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And, and across the ages, across cultures, this is not the first time that a culture has been upended by non-Christian secular ideas.
Mm-hmm. Uh, politically oriented, economically oriented- Mm-hmm ... whatever, whatever it is. It's not the first time. We could look over across the ages and see times when the church all over the world was challenged. But it was the people [00:31:00] that hung onto the gospel, that powerful message of Jesus Christ, that every person should be loved, every person matters, every person can be redeemed.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And if we believe that, and realize it and accept it, that it's powerful and effective, man, there's nothing can stop us. Mm. No reason to put away, no way to throw the baton and glove in the back and give up, no reason to walk away, because the gospel is about something larger than each and every one of us.
Mm. It's part of the why, like, here I am at this stage of my life, doing the work that I do now- Mm-hmm ... working with young preachers and other pastors, is I believe in the power of the gospel.
Mike Glenn: That's right. Yeah. I tell people there's never been a better time-
Dr. Gwaltney: Never been a better
Mike Glenn: time ... yeah, to preach than right now.
Dr. Gwaltney: No. Uh, I, I, uh, if- this is Florida again. I had this guy visit in my home. We have, we have these [00:32:00] experiences. Like, where we are in- Mm-hmm ... this season of our life, it's because 10, 20, 30 years ago, uh, something happened. God, uh, uh, uh- Mm-hmm ... opportunity came up, and we were trying to be faithful, and, and God taught us something And so, uh, it was a learning experience for me.
I was in Florida as a pastor and I went to this guy's home, and, and they had been coming, he and his-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: girlfriend had been coming to the church. So I, I, they finally allowed me to come to their home. Y-
Mike Glenn: you're sitting in a living room with this guy who doesn't believe.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, in fact, wanted to turn you off.
Right. Wanted to push you away. Yeah.
Dr. Gwaltney: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: But the conversation began with his questions.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Now, one of the interesting things that's happened in our 40 years or whatever of, of doing this, is we went to the sermon, we walked up to the pulpit knowing we had the answers.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? Now, to be an [00:33:00] effective pastor, you have to walk into the pulpit knowing you have understood their questions.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right.
Mike Glenn: Does that make sense?
Dr. Gwaltney: Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I would, I would frame that even a little bit more precisely. That in the past, we spoke, we knew the questions they were asking.
Mike Glenn: Yes.
Dr. Gwaltney: Or so we thought.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: And, and so it was about supporting a way of talking about the Bible, about church that, that we had been a part of and we knew what they were asking.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: And, uh, I think the difference now is for us to be willing to accept that people are asking questions we are not asking.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: And to be willing to create space for them to ask that question.
Mike Glenn: And begin the conversation where they are.
Dr. Gwaltney: Right. And, and to, and to think about what it's like. You know, the, the
So preaching is about conversation.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Dr. Gwaltney: That's, the word for preaching comes- Mm-hmm ... from conversation. And, and so to really ask ourselves [00:34:00] and be honest with ourselves that the things that we're really interested in talking about probably don't make a difference. To them. I mean, really. That's
Mike Glenn: right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Gwaltney: Uh, how- however clever our illustrations are- Yeah ... our terms, or this deep, like working the text. It just, it is not-
Mike Glenn: N- nah, dun- ...
Dr. Gwaltney: it's not where they are ...
Mike Glenn: dun
Dr. Gwaltney: hill. Dun hill. You know? They're, they're, they're worried about, they got things on their mind, really, relationship and finances- Mm-hmm ... and family and what their kids are doing- Mm-hmm
and the way the world is encroaching upon them. Um, and, and how does this even matter? Like- Right ... uh, w- we, I, I think we came from, I came from, uh, a, a background that of course the scripture is right Yes, it's truthful
Mike Glenn: Right
Dr. Gwaltney: Now you, let me tell you how it is so you'll accept it
Mike Glenn: Yeah, so adjust
Dr. Gwaltney: accordingly But, but- Yeah
the big question now for people, if they're not already in the church, is, "Tell me a reason I should believe this." Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Where's, where's, where's the foundation I can build my house?
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah. What, what's... [00:35:00] How's this true?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Dr. Gwaltney: What is the gospel?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: What a funny sounding word.
Mike Glenn: And, and, and what, and how do you know it's true?
What makes it... Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah. So I think- Exactly ... the key thing is, is for us to slow everything down And listen to questions that people are being asked.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: Even if the questions that they are asking us indict us in some way.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Dr. Gwaltney: That the question that somebody might ask
us reflects our own bias, our own prejudice, our own insensitivity.
Mike Glenn: And failures.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: As, as it'll... Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Gwaltney: Yeah. And that's a hard thing when it happens.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Gwaltney: But it's an honest thing for them to do, and it's our responsibility because it's our responsibility to respond because more than one time, Jesus was asked very difficult questions.
Mm-hmm. So I think we should be as [00:36:00] well. He told me right away, he, he, he said... I had a T-shirt. He was wearing this T-shirt that had some profanity on it, and he said, "I wanted to wear this to church, but she wouldn't let me. She made me wear a different shirt." And I said, "Oh, okay." And then he had placed something up on the TV that was kind of a, that meant, meant to offend me.
And, and he said, "And what do you think about that?" And I was like, "Uh, I under- I understand what that is." Mm-hmm. I said, "What?" So then he, he, he began to tell me, he said, "I don't believe any of this," and, and I won't use the language he used, but, "I don't believe any of this-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Dr. Gwaltney: and this," you know. And, and I said, "Well, okay, that's great."
And he said, "What do you mean that's great?" And I said, "Oh, we got something to talk about."
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Gwaltney: And, and so y- wh- how, what, how did it happen that you decided to feel that way about this? So we begin this conversation, and I sat with him for, I don't know, a while. Mm-hmm. You know? Said, "Okay, here's, here's the challenge.
Here's the deal." And he said, "What?" I said, "Okay, you come to [00:37:00] church. You keep coming. You can sit there. Please don't wear that T-shirt." "But, but you can come because it'll distract people." Yeah. "But you come, and, uh, my job is to explain this to you."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. "
Dr. Gwaltney: To present it to you in a way that it will start to make sense."
He said, "All right, I'll give it a try." And so he did that. And I said, "The only thing I ask of you is that sometime in the future when it's starting to make sense, let's not make a big deal out of it. You just come up and grab my shoulder and lean over my ear and say, 'Hey, Darrell, this is starting to make sense.
We need to talk some more about it.'" Mm-hmm. And so of course that happened.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, sure.
Dr. Gwaltney: But it was a h- a person who was very negative and working to be offensive to me, but I believed that the gospel had power to reach him And it did
Mike Glenn: Yeah
Dr. Gwaltney: It was cool
Mike Glenn: They get [00:38:00] better Yeah They get better. We don't wanna leave this podcast until we share the, the, the, the great news that's happening in your life, Grandpa
Dr. Gwaltney: Yes.
I have another grandchild. Uh, I've, for five years, I've, I've loved being a grandfather with my grandson, Lucas.
Mike Glenn: Yeah
Dr. Gwaltney: Uh, and now my oldest daughter and my son-in-law, Alvaro, uh, have blessed us with a little granddaughter named Olivia.
Mike Glenn: Ah, how cool.
Dr. Gwaltney: We'll probably call her Livvy.
Mike Glenn: Well, you're broke. You're broke.
You'll have to keep working with the School of Ministry and all that- Yes ... to pay, to pay for all her stuff
Dr. Gwaltney: She's three weeks old today, so it's pretty exciting.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, that is good stuff. Yeah. Darrell, thanks for being with us today.
Dr. Gwaltney: Mike, thank you. Thanks, always glad to be in conversation with you, uh, for the good work we try to do together.
Yeah It's, uh, it's wonderful to believe that we can, um, we can love God, uh, love the gospel, and, uh, equip other people, and it makes a difference- Yeah ... in the lives of people Yeah So thanks so much.
Mike Glenn: Good time.
Dr. Gwaltney: Appreciate [00:39:00] it.
