Discipleship and Reaching Gen Z | Dave Bachman

Written By Kylie Larson

Large group teaching has its place. But transformation? That happens one relationship at a time. Mike Glenn and Dave Bachman from Campus Navigators dig into why Gen Z is spiritually hungry but institutionally skeptical -- and how personal discipleship becomes the bridge that programs alone can never build.

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  • Dave Bachman from Campus Navigators

    Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] Dave Bachman navigators, welcome to the podcast. Yeah. Thanks for being here.

    Dave Bachman: Thanks a lot. Happy to be here with you.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Now for some of our, uh, our viewers who may not know the, the youth among us may not know of navigators. Tell us about navigators.

    Dave Bachman: We've been around for almost a hundred years.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: We started back, uh, pre-World War ii. Uh, Dawson Trotman was our founder. He was a lumberyard truck driver who came to faith and got this passion for scripture memory. Mm-hmm. And, uh, walking, um, alongside others in the most personal way possible, one-on-one discipleship was a big thing to him. And he started to share some of his ideas and reach out to servicemen in the Navy.

    And, uh, this thing just spread like wildfire all over, all over the Pacific Fleet. [00:01:00] And, uh, God used the navigators, uh, early on to, to impact a lot of military and servicemen. A lot of these guys came back from the war and they wanted to go to college. So we started college ministries. They wanted to go, they wanted to either stay in, stay in a branch of the military, so we started military ministries, or continued those ministries, or they wanted to go back to the countries where they were fighting fighting wars mm-hmm.

    And minister of the people there. And so we, we became a mission sending agency. And so all the while our, our, our, our passion has kind of been around, um, just the great commission to encourage the body of Christ to stay committed and focused on the Great Commission.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. But, but it's more than that because I, I, I say more than that.

    Um, you know, when you, when you've been around as long as I have, uh, you are well aware of the navigators, uh, and mostly through the navigator's material.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: The Navigator discipleship material was seen as the standard. Of, [00:02:00] of, of one-on-one discipleship, of individual discipleship. If you saw somebody with a navigator book, then, you know, okay, this person is a step up.

    Mm-hmm. Uh, committed really. I mean, that was, that was kind of the slang understanding mm-hmm. Of what it was to be a navigator. Mm-hmm. If you were in a navigator group, you were, you were pretty serious about, about the faith. You were going beyond the traditional Sunday school model and, and, and all of that.

    So what, what are some of those key distinctives

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, that make the navigators. The navigators?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. You know, our vision is workers for the kingdom next door to everywhere. Mm-hmm. And so this idea of, uh, disciples. Maturing to become disciple makers. Mm-hmm. And so what does that process look like?

    Um, a lot of times it's just, it's, it's a real commitment to the basics. A real commitment to the spiritual disciplines. Uh, we get people going in scripture memory early [00:03:00] on of all the spiritual disciplines you can do. I mean, gosh, scripture, memory, meditation, over the word prayer, hiding it in your heart

    Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: To me is the most transformational thing that I've, that I've done. And we get people going in that and they, they eat it up. They start to experience life change and, and, and, and they want more.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. Um, okay. Alright. Let's, let's stop right now because I can imagine somebody going. Why do I need to memorize it?

    It's on my phone. It's, it's on my computer. I, you know, I, I don't, I I don't even know my wife's phone number. Okay. I hit her picture on my phone, but if you ask me the number, I don't know it anymore.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Because that's the way we've gone. And so I've, I'm really glad I have the Bible with me, no matter where I am.

    Why do I need to memorize it?

    Dave Bachman: Hmm. Yeah. You know, so many reasons. One, you have Psalm 1 19, 9. How can a young man keep his way pure by living according to word of hidden your word in my heart.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: That I might not sit against you. There is something about hiding this [00:04:00] word, this, this truth, uh, in your heart, that that literally changes you from the inside out.

    And

    Mike Glenn: it's a little different. Yeah. The word has to be in you just not outside. Mm-hmm. It has to be something that you are not something that you read.

    Dave Bachman: And then as it transforms your life and as you apply it to specific situations and that are coming up throughout your day. Yeah. It's also this tool to be able to pour into others.

    Mm-hmm. So you're meeting with another person and they're open about their life, and scripture is just rattling off in your brain. Right. You know, there's a verse about that. Mm-hmm. That exact thing you just said you're dealing with. That's a guy who dealt with that in the Bible. And, and a lot of navigators are, are able to, you know, uh, have that conversation, use scripture conversationally like that because they've hidden it in their heart.

    Mm-hmm. Um, and then it's just, it's fun when, when the Lord, uh, brings those verses back up to you. You know, Jesus told the disciples, and I think it's John 14, that, uh, the Holy Spirit will remind you of the words that I said, and when I hide God's word in my heart, I find more that the Holy Spirit reminds me of.

    Well, you've

    Mike Glenn: given [00:05:00] him more to work with.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: With that. Yeah. I find it interesting that, um, when Jesus is tempted in the wilderness, he answers with scripture

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: That he's memorized.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, when he's on the cross, he quote scripture.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: That he's memorized in the toughest times of Jesus's life.

    He quotes scripture to define and to frame that moment.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, so, you know, if it was important enough for Jesus to memorize

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, and, and, and, and we're learning a lot about how the brain works and the life works is it's what you, it's, it's what you think about that becomes what you desire and what you desire becomes what you do, which becomes who you are.

    Uh, so if you put scripture in your head, and that's what's rattling around in there, and not the theme song to the latest candy bar, that, that we can't get outta red. Yeah, it does, it does change some things.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. [00:06:00] One of the things we're finding about working with Gen Z on campuses is there's a, there's a hunger for.

    You know, show me how,

    Mike Glenn: right.

    Dave Bachman: Uh, is there a structure to this thing, you know? And, you know, there's, there's some research out now about how young people are pouring into the Catholic church or pouring into the Orthodox mm-hmm. Tradition. And there's a, there's a older, a structure there that, you know, is appealing to this generation.

    Mm-hmm. It's the, we're saying, man, how, how, how can we create some, uh,

    Mike Glenn: a liturgy?

    Dave Bachman: Exactly.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. A liturgy for every day.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh,

    Dave Bachman: yeah,

    Mike Glenn: I got it. That, that, that brings structure to your life. Mm-hmm. Because everything in my life is so chaotic.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And so spontaneous and. You know, the phone beeps and it changes everything.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Right. Because now I've got a new message and a new thing, but I'm looking for that, that consistent structure

    Dave Bachman: and some of that navigator material over the years. You know, the two [00:07:00] seven series mm-hmm. Was a big thing years ago that churches across the country adopted. It was a structure. It was, uh, you know, the, the emphasis on a daily quiet time or diversion, seven

    Mike Glenn: days a week, you

    Dave Bachman: know, a daily, daily or weekly scripture memory.

    Yeah. Um, you know, even sharing your faith on a regular basis. Mm-hmm. And it was a, a rhythm for life that, that, that was something people could grab hold of and, and, and do.

    Mike Glenn: Right. And what people found out was, you know, you have this goal of sharing your faith, which scares everybody to death. Right. You need to share your faith, Dave, or you're sharing your faith.

    And everybody goes, I don't know how to do, if you are in the word and if the word is rattling around in your head, it becomes very natural. For that is what you talk about.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: So if you and I are having a conversation and I have been reading a passage in Luke and somebody, Hey, I was just reading in this and this is what it means to me, [00:08:00] it becomes very natural and easy way to, to share the faith.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, but I, you know, I'm a huge fan of, of navigators. Mm-hmm. And it was, it was kind of funny when, uh, some, some of the younger people around here say, Dave, have you ever heard of the Navigators and all that? Yeah. It's just, you know, they've been around forever, uh, with this kind of thing. But how did, how did Dave get in navigators?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. My story goes back, um, to my dad and his faith. He became a Christian writer to college, joined a church, joined a two seven series that the church was doing, and there was an old navigator missionary that was back from the field, and he was leading this group of young couples. And he, he kinda saw this fire in my dad as a young believer and pulled him aside and said, you know, would you, would you wanna go deeper and, and get in the scriptures together and, and, uh, start meeting up on a regular basis?

    And my dad's father passed away when he was young and said this, this type of, uh, spiritual parenting Right. On a real appealed to him. Right? This guy met with my [00:09:00] dad for 10 years, Mike. Mm-hmm. I mean, weekly, regularly in, in, in each other's lives. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't even a show up at this meeting type.

    It was a, it was a life together. Mm-hmm. And so I grew up benefiting from a father who was being intentionally discipled and poured into by another man. And my dad didn't know what, what, he grew up without a father, so he didn't know what that was like. Mm-hmm. Um, and this, this guy walked with him through those years.

    So I got the College of Vanderbilt, was looking for, uh, a place to grow my faith and got involved with some churches and some different ministries and ended up thinking I'd love to find one of these navigator guys. Yeah. You know, where, how do you find these people? Yeah. And there was a guy down in Murfreesboro, you know, so here in Nashville that's about an hour away or worse, depending on traffic.

    And, and this guy agreed to come up and meet with me and, you know, an hour drive up. We met for 30 minutes or 45 minutes between classes and he drove an hour back. And he, over time, um, started teaching me [00:10:00] how to share my faith. He really equipped me. Mm-hmm. Uh, in the faith. Um, how would you read the Bible with someone who has, uh, no faith background and ask key questions along the way through the Book of John, or, um, how would you help someone understand different ways to get the word of God into their life and just all these practical tools?

    And he had an analogy, or a diagram or a little thing to draw out for, for every topic I would ask him about. And so I, he, this guy met with me.

    Mike Glenn: All the great ideas are on a napkin, aren't they?

    Dave Bachman: I had a little stack of these napkins, and so for three years, uh, mark discipled me and poured into me and equipped me.

    Mm-hmm. And I'd meet with Mark on Monday, and then on on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I'd schedule lunches with younger guys, uh, who were interested and hungry too. And I'd pass on what Mark was teaching me. And these guys thought I knew so much and had had so much maturity. I thought, I just learned this on Monday.

    Of course, I didn't tell them that, uh, you

    Mike Glenn: just gotta stay one day ahead. That's all you gotta do day.

    Dave Bachman: Well, mark was, mark would sometimes say, you know, I, I can't meet this week. I said, well, what am I gonna tell? [00:11:00] But it was such a,

    Mike Glenn: and people depending on you, man, you gotta,

    Dave Bachman: that was an amazing way for me to grow my journey.

    'cause I was, it was, I was receiving and then I was also passing on.

    Mike Glenn: Well, sometimes the best way to learn is to teach.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Is, is, yeah.

    Dave Bachman: That was part

    Mike Glenn: of the vision. Okay. Now, something you have said has, has, has caught my attention and this age of instant gratification. You've already mentioned your father was discipled for 10 years.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. You were discipled for three years, almost the entirety of your college experience. Mm-hmm. You were being discipled. So, so talk to me about how navigators understand time.

    Dave Bachman: Mm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. Yeah. Be because most, most people

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And even most pastors

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: We want a microwave plan. Mm-hmm. Okay.

    We want you to come be baptized, put you in this microwave, ding out comes a mature Christian, and we can, [00:12:00] we, and we don't have to bother with you anymore. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like that. Then you can go out and do your thing and, and, and, and I don't have to, I don't have to worry about you anymore.

    It's not that simple.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, and it's, it is certainly not that easy.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, so, so talk to me about how navigators understand time.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. You know, if there's a, if there's a teacher who notices a kid in their class that's struggling. Or, um, a a a Sunday school teacher who notices these boys are acting up, you know, I can't get their, can't get their attention.

    The answer is often, uh, that, that, that kid needs extra attention.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And so sometimes we say in the navigators, you know, all discipleship is this kinda life to life. Discipleship is extra attention in the name of Jesus, giving someone that, that, that time, you know, your ear, um, your, your heart, your care and concern, and, uh, it's transformational when someone pays [00:13:00] attention to you like that.

    Mm-hmm. Especially when they do it consistently over the long haul. Um, when I look at the, the broad strategy of, of Jesus, he, he loved the multitudes. He teach many, he poured into many, uh, he ministered to some, you get these individual stories right, of with names of Jarius and his daughter and, and Barnard, MAEU and, and, and, but those, he ministers to them.

    And then this, those narratives kind of, kind of leave the story, but then all the while there's this, there's this intentional, deep investment in a few. Mm-hmm. And you can't do it with everybody. And even the ones that he had didn't all get it, you know? But, uh, but he went deep with a few, and you could even say the three beyond that, Peter.

    Mm-hmm. Peter, James, John. And he gives them extra attention and he invites 'em into extra situations and they, they do life together. And then the,

    Mike Glenn: one of my great frustrations in studying scripture is we don't have many records of them walking and talking.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: You know, we have, he went from [00:14:00] Jerusalem to Galilee, but we don't have anything about what they talked about.

    It must have been fascinating

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: To walk with Jesus and each disciple take their turn.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Walking up with him.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: You know that I, I want to hear about some of those conversations.

    Dave Bachman: Oh yeah, for sure.

    Mike Glenn: Uh,

    Dave Bachman: we talk about, you know, it's not that different than college ministry. You, you know, road trips where you're talking up and camping out, you know, together and eating meals together and, um.

    Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: And that's what I tell, uh, uh, when I, when I do marriage enrichment, uh, the, the wives always want to sit down and talk with their husband. Mm-hmm. And so they'll say, let's, let's have coffee and let's talk eye to eye. Mm-hmm. Well, when you say eye to eye to a guy that's combat, you know, adversarial.

    Yeah. Yeah. If I come to you and go, okay, Dave, you and me, eye to eye. Yeah. That's combat. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and so you've [00:15:00] invited your husband and, and you're wondering why he shows up all armored up.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, because you called him to combat guys talk sideways.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah, yeah.

    Mike Glenn: You know, we, we do things together, we can't, we're stuck.

    Mm-hmm. Then the conversation happens. Why you're not looking at each other. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it just kind of slips in and slips out of the other, the other conversation. It's like,

    Dave Bachman: yeah, for sure.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: Going back to what you were saying about time too, you know, we, uh. And the navs, we, we like to think of, um, you know, befriending someone, praying for them, you know, by God's grace being a part of that, them coming to faith.

    Mm-hmm. And then we don't, we don't leave 'em there. We, we wanna teach 'em the basics and follow them up and how do you walk with God? And then, and then as they grow a little bit, we start thinking, well, let's start praying for your friends who don't know the Lord and that you spend time with and, and, and you know what, how would you share your faith with them?

    How would you share your testimony? Okay, let's work on that together. Mm-hmm. Um. You know, over time, you know, we, we want them to, to come out as a mature disciple maker who, when they, [00:16:00] you know, maybe we just get four years in college, or maybe we get just a, a, a period of time with them, but wherever they go, we, we always say, uh, we're sending our seniors out this time of year.

    You know, you don't just leave this ministry we send you mm-hmm. To be a light for Christ in your workplace, in your church, in your, in your community, in your own family. And you can always be praying, Lord, show me one, two, or three folks that I can go deeper with.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And so it, it, it is a long game and it's, uh, it's generational.

    Yeah. Is what we say,

    Mike Glenn: uh, heard an old friend of mine preach on the Parable of the Good Samaritan, and the question of, who is my neighbor? The closest person to you who's in need is your neighbor.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: So the, the, the, uh, the, the person close to you that you know is angry all the time

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Or depressed or that, that that's your neighbor.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And that, that, that's who, that's who you, that's who you stopped for. Oh,

    Dave Bachman: yeah. Oh yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Now, how long have you been [00:17:00] involved?

    Dave Bachman: I've been involved for 20 years. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. What's changed in the type of people or circumstances of people that you're dealing with in these last 20 years? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, we're hearing a lot, uh, both from the workplace about how to work with Gen X and Gen Y and the millennials and all of that.

    Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, we're hearing the, the same kind of conversation in churches. How do you reach them? Because so many of them are choosing to be part of the nuns. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or, uh, and not participating in the church, especially the church that they grew up in. Um, so what, what are you finding out. Yeah.

    If I were ask you to say, who did you talk to 20 years ago and who are you talking to now?

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: What are the questions then, and, and what are the questions now?

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I don't know if I can remember 20 years ago, I can tell you what I see now. I, I, I see a, [00:18:00] uh, a real, um, famine of the word in their lives.

    They, they, the, the church kids often, uh, are very, uh, they're not exposed in their personal lives to the scripture. It's, it's not okay.

    Mike Glenn: Now. Now, okay, I just wanna stop for emphasis here. These are not unchurched kids. These are kids who have grown up in church.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Do not know the word.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. They're used to the, you know, verse of the day and the Bible app perhaps.

    Yeah. But they are unc

    Mike Glenn: unfamiliar the entertainment mode of ministry.

    Dave Bachman: They're unfamiliar with Yeah. The, the grand story of God and, and scripture mm-hmm. And the depths of the gospel and how it applies to their lives. Mm-hmm. And, um, they have soundbites and tweets of, of, of verse, but it's out of context and, you know, it's been politicized.

    Perhaps you, it's, it's, there's a real, [00:19:00] um, there's a real lack of depth in the scriptures. And so we're, we're not, you used to be able to come on to a, a come into a, a, a community of 18, 19 year olds on a campus. And if they were, if they were churched, there was some baseline of understanding. Right. And, and now we don't have that.

    Um, part of the reason is there's a, there's this technology distraction and, uh, even like attention span deficit mm-hmm. That we're in now. And, uh. You know, if, if, if, if preachers 20 years ago thought, how do I keep these people's attention? You know, it's, it's, it's 20 times worse now.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. You know, what is it though?

    The last Google research I said said that you have eight seconds of attention when somebody calls up a webpage.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: That, that you have to catch 'em in eight seconds if they're gonna click on anything or click off.

    Dave Bachman: Mm. Wow. Well, yeah. On top of that, you have a, a mental health crisis that, that many have, [00:20:00] have heard about and talked about and researched and, and, you know,

    Mike Glenn: how do you see that that mental health crisis, uh, manifested?

    How does it show itself?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, and, and the conversations of the young people you deal with now?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. There's some, uh, there's some challenges and there's some opportunities there. The, the challenges, um. Uh, people can just get really stuck in their inner, inner dialogue mm-hmm. And inner world. Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm. And isolated. Mm-hmm. There's a community crisis. They, they, they don't know how to connect with other people. And so it's one thing to be lonely and to be struggling. There's another one thing to be struggling. It's nothing to be lonely in it. It's almost like porn fuel in the fire. And so, um,

    Mike Glenn: or worse, you think, you think what you're dealing with is causing the isolation.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: So not only are you lonely, but the, your loneliness is your fault.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, so you, you in this spiral of mm-hmm. Of not being able to get out of it.

    Dave Bachman: Now [00:21:00] the, the little opportunity here is because mental health is kind of an internal issue, it kind of cracks open the door for people to consider, um, spiritual things.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: You know, uh, is a. Is there a God out there that, that might have thoughts on my inner life and, and, and, you know, am I a spiritual being? Is that the thing that's missing? Mm-hmm. Maybe I should look, look for that. Um, there's a meaning crisis, I think with this generation that they've grown up being told, Hey, you do you?

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. You

    Dave Bachman: know, the generation before us maybe was heavy handed and told us how to live our lives, and so now we're not gonna tell our kids anything.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And so it's all on these kids to figure out all of life. Um,

    Mike Glenn: yeah. Used to just frustrate me when a, when a parent would say, we're gonna let them choose their own faith journey.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: I said, you don't let 'em go grocery shopping. Yeah. Why in the world would you trust him with this decision?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: So, [00:22:00]

    Dave Bachman: yeah. So at some point, you know, a post-Christian culture becomes pre-Christian again.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And we're, we're seeing that now where there's, there's, there's very little baggage. With the church.

    Mm-hmm. Or with Christianity that, that I engage with. It's more of a, um, you know, ignorance. I, I, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Tell me more. I've never, I've never met a real Christian,

    Mike Glenn: never been, never been to church. Never been to church, you know? Yeah. Yeah. There was a, there was a time a few years ago when we were all focusing on church hurt and people weren't going to church 'cause they'd been hurt or disappointed or all of that.

    Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now what you're saying is we're past that and there's just no church.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Memory or, uh,

    Dave Bachman: yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Understanding.

    Dave Bachman: I was reading with some students today who are in this investigative. Kind of evangelistic study with me reading about John two, where Jesus clears the temple.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: And I said, you know, Jesus had some issues with the way religion was being practiced here.

    You know, what are some of the issues [00:23:00] you guys have with the way religion's being practiced and especially Christianity.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And you know, 20 years ago I would get a laundry list.

    Mike Glenn: That's right.

    Dave Bachman: And these guys just looked at me with blank stares and said, uh, I don't really have any issues. I've never really been around this very much.

    Mike Glenn: That's right. Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: And so it, it's, it's, things are changing, you know? I mean, there, there's some, there's some research now that church kids are kind of deconstructing a little bit, and, but then unchurched kids are saying, we don't have any direction, and this could be the answer.

    Mike Glenn: Right? Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: And so,

    Mike Glenn: so they need something to construct.

    Dave Bachman: Exactly. Yeah. And students on campus are coming in sort of with their spiritual thirst on their sleeves. Mm-hmm. They'll tell you about it. Mm-hmm. They'll show up to a meeting. I'm not a Christian, never been to church, and I'm curious about this whole thing.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: You know, what is this all about? I got a friend who was a Christian, she was great.

    Um, tell me more.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: And you're thinking, gosh, I, that's, that's a new thing for someone to walk into the room

    Mike Glenn: and say blank thing. Yeah. I don't have to undo anything.

    Dave Bachman: And there's not even a fear about, about saying, I'm, I'm, [00:24:00] I'm unfamiliar with spiritual things. Or There's not a hesitancy, it's just a openness.

    Even like a, I'm intrigued by this.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Um, now you still have your kids who have their air AirPods in and they're walking around campus and they don't, you know, stay outta my business and mm-hmm. I'm not interested. But, but then those kids are at home, uh, behind closed doors and they're doing internet research,

    Mike Glenn: right.

    Dave Bachman: I mean, for weeks, months, or even years. Just all, you know, researching Christianity and we'll do a q and a sometimes at some of our gatherings on campus. And, and some of the questions you'll hear from folks who are outside the church, you know, you know, complex questions about, um, you know, Theo theological conversations I have, I, I barely ever have.

    Mike Glenn: Right. Right.

    Dave Bachman: And you're like, where, where are they? Where are they getting this? You know, it's 'cause they're watching these YouTubers.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And a lot of times they're finding, I mean, really legit teaching.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: And there's a lot of good stuff out there. And if the algorithm dials in the right way, I mean, it could go either way.

    Right. Right. [00:25:00] They start getting some good stuff and then they think, do I know any Christians? There was this kid in the seventh grade who brought a Bible to school, and he was kinda weird, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna DM him and find out if he's still, if he's still doing it right, if he still doing this and what he is up to, and maybe there's a church I can get involved in.

    Mm-hmm. And, you know, I actually, I, I do a decent bit of travel around the world and we spent, uh, last summer in Europe and we heard the same stories.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Uh, new believers who were doing internet research for, for, for months, and then found a Christian reached out and eventually got invited to a church or a ministry, came to faith, and, and they're growing, but it's, uh, uh, they're, they are thirsty.

    They just often don't know where to go, where to look. Mm-hmm. Um, so there's, there's some tough things, you know, with, with this generation. Um, it could scare maybe some people. Boy, I don't know how to get into that deeper inner life stuff that people wanna talk about, but there's also some really [00:26:00] incredible opportunity here.

    I heard recently that, you know, after 2000 years, we still can't figure out how to disciple people. And, and one guy said, you know, the, uh, the boomers were about education. Mm-hmm. Let's just educate them. Mm-hmm. Sunday school,

    Mike Glenn: right.

    Dave Bachman: And, uh, and, you know, large group teaching and just

    Mike Glenn: knowledge was power.

    Dave Bachman: Get 'em the information.

    Mm-hmm. You know, the, the millennials were about leadership development, we're gonna develop you to be leaders. And there was so much, uh, in that, you know, so many, you know, books written on that and, and workshops and different things. And then Gen Z it's more about, um, you know, inner life and mental health and mm-hmm.

    And, uh, emo, you know, emotion, vulnerability, emotional connection. And, and that's how you, that's how they wanna be disciple. Well, which is it, you know? Well, I'd say it's, it's a, a, a whole har a holistic approach would be all three of this. Right. Um, and so if, if, if we can get close enough to Gen Z, if we can build high trust relationships with [00:27:00] them.

    They will open up, they, they, they will share more than you would expect. Mm-hmm. And they're, they're so hungry for someone to walk with them in a personal way and help them take the next step, show them how. Mm-hmm. Not just tell them how, but. Show them how and the navigators we like to say, come with me.

    Mm-hmm. You know, don't, here's, uh, uh, here's how you read your Bible. You should go do it. You know, let's check in later. No, let's do it together.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: I'll model for this, this for you. I will process this. The guy in Murphysborough I talked about earlier who discipled me in college, I mean, this is, this was really impressive to me.

    He, he taught me how to have a 15 minute time alone with God as kind of a starting point. Right. As a daily practice. And I had, I had dabbled in some stuff before this, but, but he showed me kind of a structure for this. So he, he drove an hour up, met with me for 15 minutes. Mm-hmm. And he closed the book and said, all right, I, I wanna, I'm trying to, I'm trying to show you, Dave, that you don't have to, you know, set aside an hour or two hours or, you know, this, this doesn't have to be something that's overwhelming.

    You can do this [00:28:00] every day. And he drove an hour back. He said, uh, let's meet again tomorrow. Do the same thing. I said, are you serious? He said, yeah. So he drove The next day, we went for 15 minutes. We did the next section of the, of the, of the, we were going through the book of James. And then he drove back and he said, let's do it one more time.

    And so he drove up the third day, met with me for 15 minutes, drove back, he said, uh, on the fourth day, you do this on your own. Mm-hmm. Write down any questions you have and thoughts you have, and we'll get together on day five and we'll do another one together face-to-face. Mm-hmm. Are you serious, mark?

    We've gotten together five times this week, you know, and you're, you've already put in about 10 hours of driving. Yeah. And he said, Dave, this is the most important thing I could, I could help you with and to get you going. Right. And of course, we were talking about life and all kinds of stuff there. It wasn't just a, just a Bible study, but that type of commitment, you know, to me, that extra attention, uh, it had a big impact.

    And, and I began to open up to him and share about things in my life. And he was vulnerable with me as well. That's another huge thing about discipling Gen Z is. Yeah. We don't [00:29:00] wanna approach them that, that we're the master teachers. Right. We have this all figured out. Right. Definitely. You have something to offer and you need to share that.

    Mike Glenn: I tell people, wisdom is, I screwed up before you did.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah, yeah. That's

    Mike Glenn: right. Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: I like that. Yeah. And so to share those stories Yeah. I mean, they, they light up and they say, okay, this is someone that I can, that I can be myself around. They're a real, a real human being mm-hmm. Who's had struggles and challenges their whole life, but they find a way to depend on God and walk with them through these things.

    And, um, that's a real barrier between, you know, the older generation and the younger generation. But that, that vulnerability, that openness and high trust relationship is, is really, um, I think it's a key to discipling Gen Z. Mm-hmm. You know, the, again, the large group has its approach, has its, uh, has its advantages.

    We gotta teach people. And, and you can really disciple people I think, in a large group context. Um, but when you get down to that. The issues that are coming up these days, the deeper inner life issues, the [00:30:00]

    Mike Glenn: identity crisis. Well, you know, part, one of the important parts of learning is doing it yourself. You don't know how to do it until you do it yourself, until you hit the fourth day of the process and he says, you do it, do it all by yourself.

    Mm-hmm. Now can you do it Now, you know, you can go and watch a YouTube on, on how to change a tire.

    Dave Bachman: Mm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And you can get all kind of certifications in changing a tire.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: But until you're on I 65 and hear that you don't know how to change a tire, you actually have to do it.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: And life context.

    Yeah. Uh, and, and I think one of the things that's happened in, in church life is church is something you talk about on Sunday morning, but you never do it.

    Dave Bachman: Hmm.

    Mike Glenn: During the following week. Mm-hmm. You know, I tell people, I, I grew up in a little church where we were told what not to do every Sunday. Don't dance, don't do this, don't do this.

    Don't. And we would get back together the next Sunday and praise God, we hadn't done anything. You know, that was, [00:31:00] you know, that was the whole thing of the Christian experience for me. Mm-hmm. Uh, when, when I was, when I was growing up. Now we're finding out in, in some of the work that we're doing is that most church members are born out of their minds.

    Mm-hmm. Okay. In that I come, I watch the Sunday morning, I leave, but I'm never asked to do anything. Mm-hmm. I'm never challenged to do anything for the kingdom of God. Never trusted to do anything with, with the kingdom of God. And back to the stock quote, that is kind of the standard of, of what we do here at ECN, that the first reformation gave the word back to the people.

    The second reformation is giving ministry back to the people.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, and I think there's a lot of reasons why that's coming. One, we're not gonna be able to afford much longer this model of church that we have in North America. Uh, the Gen Z are very generous. They'll give you the shut off their [00:32:00] back for a well in Africa.

    Dave Bachman: Hmm.

    Mike Glenn: They won't give 15 cents for the light bulb in the sanctuary, you know? Mm. Because mm-hmm. The light bulb doesn't change the lights. Mm-hmm. They don't see that connection. Mm-hmm. Um, so it's going to be, is the model of how we do it is, is, is going to change a lot. What, what would you say? And, you know, and, and what I say to people is, if you walk to the end of your driveway and you look to the right or to the left, and your neighbors aren't Christians, welcome to the mission field

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: That you have been sent to, that's your mission field.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Those are the people that you're called to reach.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: And, and, and how do you do that? So I am Joe Ter. I know there's something more for me to do. Uh, and, uh, I, I know friends at work, school, whatever, who, who do not know Christ. I don't know what to do now.

    Mm-hmm. Okay. I've been told all my [00:33:00] life to invite them to church. Mm-hmm. Invite them to church. Well, they don't want to go to church.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: You know, they may go to coffee with me or come over to the house and watch a ball. Something like that. So what do you say to this board church member that you and I know too many of?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. You know, the place I start with that is, you know, what's your favorite restaurant?

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: And someone says, oh, have you been to Ed Lee's? Mm-hmm. Ed Lee's barbecue is the best. Mm-hmm. Barbecue I've ever had. Oh my gosh. The, the, the, uh, pimento cheese on top of the barbecue sandwich that they do with a fried egg.

    I mean, it's just, it's Tuck special, I think they call it. It's, it's the best. And you gotta try. When when can we go to get this sandwich? Uh, next You and you and me together? Yeah. You know, we, we, we pass on what we're passionate about ourselves, right? Mm-hmm. And so I like to start with, you know, [00:34:00] draw a circle around yourself and say, you know, I'm not leaving here until passion and revival breaks out.

    You know? Mm-hmm. Um, kind of a heart check for each of us individually. Are, am I connecting with Jesus? Am I enjoying this feast that I'm about to invite others to come?

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: To come sit at? And, and how do I, uh, how do I create space to, to really enjoy the good news of the gospel myself and, and appreciate it and, and get passionate about, about what the Lord's done for me?

    And so

    Mike Glenn: personal

    Dave Bachman: revival.

    Mike Glenn: When, um, when, when Jesus gives the Great Commandments, love God. Love your neighbors. You love yourself. People always assume they can't do it because. You don't know who my neighbor is.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. You know, God would not ask such of me if he knew who my neighbor was. I find out most people fail those commandments, and the triangle doesn't stay together because they don't know how to [00:35:00] love themselves.

    Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And because they're, they don't know how to love themselves. They're always trying to manipulate people to give them something that they think they need.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Rather than coming out into the relationship out of the overflow

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Of what Christ is doing in my life. Mm-hmm. You know, that I tell people, it's like you can't hold the ocean in a thimble.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: You know, and as Christ begins to pour himself into you, it sloshes over.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: It, it, it, it, it, it runs out of you. And, and those people closest to you are the people who are affected first and, and and foremost. So most of our folks don't live out of this overflow.

    Dave Bachman: Hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, and would hear that as strange or new or different, even though they've been going to church all their life.

    So if you're, you're at Ed Lee's, um, uh, and if my cardiologist is listening, he said, ed Lee's, I didn't. Um, so, uh, [00:36:00] what, how, how do you begin this? Do, do you take 'em through the, the old seven seven program?

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. I start more personally. So it's, it's, it's, I wanna be as, as, as relational as possible, as personal and relational as possible.

    And so, um, if I'm, I'm

    Mike Glenn: okay. Let me stop and underline this. The first thing you share is not the gospel. The first thing you share is you.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess so. First that sounds too eight. You know, they were dilauded shared. Not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: Because you become so dear to us.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: The language there, I think in ESV says, you know, we were so affectionately desirous of you, you know, it's like there's an emphasis here on like, there was a true relationship. Mm-hmm. That was true. Love and connection here.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, god re recreates the family unit.

    Dave Bachman: Mm. Mm-hmm. [00:37:00] Yeah. His plans to reach the world spiritually are not too different than his plans to, you know, uh, original plans to multiply

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: Families. Mm-hmm. Physically.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Um, and so, so

    Mike Glenn: the

    Dave Bachman: relationship,

    Mike Glenn: how, how do we begin to kind kindle this desire and this reality in a person's life? You say the first step is relationship? Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: Um, get close. Um, obviously I'm gonna be praying, you know, praying a lot for this person. Mm-hmm. And Lord, show me, you know, show me what I can do,

    Mike Glenn: put on the full armor of God.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: And the next thing Paul says is pray.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: You would think, go to battle, go to no pray.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Jesus sees the crowd, broken hearted for the crowd.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Turns to his disciples and says, pray.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's, it's, it's the, the, the, the step that all of us, especially in North America, ski, uh, skip, because we're gonna organize a plan.

    We're gonna raise money, we're gonna do this, [00:38:00] we can solve this problem.

    Dave Bachman: Oh, yeah. And when you're praying, I mean, crazy ideals will drop into your mind or you'll just, your heart grows for this person and, and

    Mike Glenn: different doors open. This

    Dave Bachman: is, if this isn't a genuine love for this person and a, and a, and a burden for them to, to come to know Jesus.

    I mean, we don't, this isn't just a friendly little, um, good idea, a good suggestion for you. We believe as Christians that mm-hmm. Uh, without Christ, we are separated from God for eternity. Mm-hmm. Like as you're praying, th those kinds of things, it's hitting you. Mm-hmm. Again, it's hitting you fresh.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Now, average peace hitter, I don't know anybody. I. You know, nobody knows me. But you're, you're saying, and, and I think this is key, you're saying that the end to the loneliness that all of us feel, or that we say is epidemic now is to go make a friend.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And start praying for the [00:39:00] person that God would want you to befriend, not send me a friend.

    Dave Bachman: Mm, yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. But who do I go and befriend?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: For the sake of the gospel and, and in the name of Christ.

    Dave Bachman: Yes. Yes. Um.

    Mike Glenn: That's pretty interesting.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: I might have to, I might have to think more on that one.

    Dave Bachman: And you'd be shocked when you start befriending people and, and, and showing them the love, the genuine love of Christ and, and care for them, and even affirming them.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: You know, commending them. Man, I think it's so cool the way that you, you, uh, you seem so committed to your, to helping your kids thrive. Mm-hmm. You have a neighbor who, you know, his daughter was wrestling with something and he was just walking. He walked the neighborhood multiple times listening to a podcast about how to help his daughter.

    And not a believer, but, but I just thought I, that's something I can affirm in him. Mm-hmm. You know, mark, I think it's so powerful that you care so much about your daughter. You're putting this tough work and there's no manual for parenting. No. And you're out here [00:40:00] praying, you know, thinking and, and, and trying to figure this out.

    And you're fighting for her. Man, I, I affirm that in you a couple weeks later. Um, we got a letter in the mail from, from this neighbor saying, you know, when you guys moved onto our street, I feel like it changed everything in our neighborhood. And I thought, I don't know. I don't know if we did that much.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: We've been, we've been befriending people, inviting 'em into our home.

    Mike Glenn: Well, when the emphasis is on being and not doing, then that change happens organically.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: And naturally.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. And then, you know, one of my favorite things to do, Mike, is, is I, I think it's a, a little bit of a subtle approach, and it gets people thinking and it kind of creates that, that time and that space is, I love to invite people and say, you know, I believe everyone is on a spiritual journey, everyone.

    Mm-hmm. You know, we're all, there's different parts about us. We have mind, we have a body, we have a heart, and we have a soul. Mm-hmm. And so everyone's on a spiritual journey in that soul area. Um, you know, where are you at in your spiritual [00:41:00] journey? What's your spiritual background? Where, where do you think you're headed spiritually?

    Mm-hmm. And it's interesting to see what people bring up, but then you, at some point I'll say, you know, um, I, I'm a Christian and I believe that, uh, that God is, has, has done some amazing stuff for us. And it's written up in, in this book called The Bible. You've probably heard of it. Um, what would your interest be in reading, you know, one little book in the, in the Bible about this guy?

    Jesus. He was kind of the main character in the whole. Mm-hmm. The whole story. It's kind of all about him getting together on a regular basis and just studying this guy's life. You know, how did he treat people? What was he like? What did he do in hard situations? Mm-hmm. What were his relationships like?

    How did he address different challenges that came his way? We could read that together in just, just a little bit at a time and, and, uh, and see what you think about this guy. And they'll say, you know, I've never really read that before. You know, I've been to church once for a funeral, or I've been to, you know, I've never, you know, I know, I know people think highly of the Bible, but, [00:42:00] um.

    Yeah, I'd be open to that. And so I, I, that's my favorite thing in the world to, is to read through the book. I usually pick John. Mm-hmm. You can pick a lot of, any of the gospels and asking these key questions along the way. This is what my, my mentor in college Mark taught me. Um, it's just, it's simple and we try to keep it like 30 minutes max.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Who is it? Dallas Willard. In his book, the, the, uh, conspiracy. The Hidden Conspiracy.

    Dave Bachman: Divine Conspiracy.

    Mike Glenn: Divine Conspiracy, that's what it is, uh, talks about. At the very least, we have to admit that Jesus was the smartest man to ever live.

    Dave Bachman: Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: And that, if we just begin with that, if he knew so much about life mm-hmm.

    What can he teach me about living, regardless of whether they're ever moved to faith or, or anything like that. But if you can just begin there. Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Oh yeah. If I'm feeling bold, I might say, you know, this guy, this Jesus guy, I mean, he changed everything. I mean, our entire system of time is built around this guy.

    Like mm-hmm. To [00:43:00] not having to not have read it yourself and read about him yourself, but then to go ahead and write him off. That'd be kind of ignorant, wouldn't it? Like, it seems like it'd be a good idea to at least discover for yourself who this guy was, and let's read his own words, you know, here, and people will kind of get intrigued by that.

    Um, and so over the course of a relationship, maybe six to eight weeks, you're reading through John. Mm-hmm. And you're

    Mike Glenn: sharing a lot. Navigators. Navigators has material to, to support and help this

    Dave Bachman: We do

    Mike Glenn: process. We do. Okay. Well, I'm just, I'm just thinking about my, my p sitter friend going, oh, I would never do that.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: But one of the, one of the, the. I, I guess the real success is geniuses of, of navigator has been all the discipleship material that's been produced over the years that is just brilliant.

    Dave Bachman: We wanna put the cookies in the bottom shelf, you know, make it easy for people to grab.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.

    Dave Bachman: Um, simple stuff.

    And, you know, maybe at times it's, you know, people have wondered if this is,

    Mike Glenn: okay, let's, let's draw the difference between [00:44:00] simple and easy.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Okay.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Simple means without complication, simple means without, easy means without effort.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: We get the two confused.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Discipleship is simple.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: It is not easy.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yes.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. Because Yes. Well, and, and, you know, in, in your own discipleship journey, um, yes. You know, I tell people, you know, I, I quit spitting on the sidewalk and cussing in front of ladies. Those were the easy sins to mm-hmm. To quit, you know, doing those kind of, but now, now, now I'm, I'm getting down to sins I like.

    Mm. So, mm-hmm. And how you root those out, that's, that's not an easy process.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh,

    Dave Bachman: yeah.

    Mike Glenn: So you're taking them through this process of teaching them not only the word, but the skills.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. Here's how you do a daily Bible reading plan. Do it three days with me. Do it once all by [00:45:00] yourself.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. And then we'll get together the next day, work on it a little bit, and then now you do go two days on your own. You know, we, we give people this thick, ancient book written to a different culture

    Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: And

    Mike Glenn: to several different cultures.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, 1500 years, 40 different authors. I mean, it's complicated.

    Mm-hmm. And then we, and how do, how do we compete with, you know, uh, video that's, you know, reels that are just

    Mike Glenn: 10 steps to a happy life. Yeah. You know, you know,

    Dave Bachman: so we gotta help them, you know, do this ancient practice. And we, we even use that word like, you know, aint old, is old, is not cool. Mm-hmm. Ancient.

    Mm-hmm. Pretty cool actually, you know, I was at Jeremiah six that says, you know, look to the ancient path. Mm-hmm. You know, like, yeah. That people kind of get, get interested in that kind of stuff. And so, um, we wanna teach people, [00:46:00] uh, you know, how to understand the culture, find this timeless truth, pull it out.

    And put it in their modern context. Mm-hmm. Or their personal context.

    Mike Glenn: Apply to us how many, how many, how many people can one person work with at a time?

    Dave Bachman: Oof. I,

    Mike Glenn: okay. Now my, my, my question, my question is, again, for the pu sitter who's going, okay, I'm on my cul-de-sac. There are 12 people you probably can't work with 12.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: One, two, maybe three.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, but if you're gonna disciple at this level and this kind of intentionality, then it's going to be a smaller group.

    Dave Bachman: Absolutely.

    Mike Glenn: And if you're doing one on one, one on two, I, what I want, what I want our piece sitter to say, that's okay.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: At least start with one and start there.

    Dave Bachman: Absolutely.

    Mike Glenn: If you develop the skill and the passion where you can do multiple fine.

    Dave Bachman: [00:47:00] Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: But start. Uh, start praying for that person. Start looking for the opportunity and see how God would lead you. But everybody should be discipling. Every disciple should be making another disciple.

    Dave Bachman: I think so. Dawson, our founder, used to say, just a simple question, men, where's your man?

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Women, where's your woman?

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: That one person that you are intentionally giving your life to for the sake of the gospel. And it doesn't always have to be additional. It could also be, you know, being intentional with what you're already doing. Right. Right. Uh, mark three 14. Jesus says that Jesus called the 12 that they might be with him.

    Mm-hmm. And that he might send them out to preach. There was something about being with Jesus. Just come be with me. You know, he didn't have, he didn't even necessarily have this real. You know, detailed discipleship plan that maybe we would, we would think of today. I think he [00:48:00] was, I think everything he did was, was intentional and thoughtful, but it was to be with me.

    Mm-hmm. And so, you know, the stay at home mom can invite a, a, a younger woman to come to come be with her. Mm-hmm. And the, you know, when she's dealing with the kids or she's getting things ready for the house, for the, for dinner or whatnot. Um, I think the, the businessman can set aside lunches and breakfast or he can, um, you know, invite people over into his life and, uh, uh, get a little group going at the office.

    Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Office or, lemme stop and underline that the younger generation are desperate and eager for relationships with the, with senior adults, older generation. I used to tell senior adults don't join a young, a a, an old Sunday school class and talk about how bad the president's doing. Nobody cares. Okay. Go join a young adult Sunday school class.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: And sit there and let 'em see what a 45 year marriage looks like, or sit down and [00:49:00] mentor some of these young guys that are starting their career.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And you're at the end of yours.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, or, you know, we've got so many people trying to be a good husband and they have never seen a good husband.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, trying to be a good wife and they've never seen one.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I agree. Um, and I am seeing more of the younger generation, interested and hungry mm-hmm. For that type of investment mm-hmm. From older folks. Mm-hmm. And, you know, unfortunately I hear a lot of, uh, seasoned believers. You know, disqualifying themselves and saying, I don't, I don't have anything.

    Who am I to say who am

    Mike Glenn: anybody? You know, you know, all our guts of life is screw up. That's beautiful.

    Dave Bachman: Exactly. I mean, that is exactly like your weakness is exactly what's gonna connect. Exactly what this generation, they, they wanna hear real stories, real life stuff. You know, we [00:50:00] talked to some of your college students who grew up in Christian homes and they'll say, I've never even heard my parents share about their, their personal walk and how they struggled and what, how they walked with God through this difficult thing.

    Mm-hmm. And here I am, you know, I don't, I don't know, I don't know who to turn to where I, I'm on the internet searching and different things, and I'm asking my questions to chat GPT, but

    Mike Glenn: yeah. And that's 50. Yeah. Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: Who's gonna grab your hand and say, I've been there. Yeah, I understand.

    Mike Glenn: Crazy. There's some things AI can't do, just flat can't do.

    What excites you now?

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: What gets you up early in the morning and, and get you, uh, out.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. You know, we've been talking about it already, but this generation is, is is spiritually hungry. Mm-hmm. They, they're willing to tell you about it. Um, they don't want, uh, or need necessarily complex theological, um, uh, you know, [00:51:00] answers to big, you know, problems that they're facing.

    They, they actually just need, um, the basics. Mm-hmm. And, uh, they need, um, real life friendship and life to life engagement. Um, and, and they need the simple word of God. Mm-hmm. And so it's like, man, I, I think I can bring that. Yeah. I think everyone can

    Mike Glenn: bring that. Listen, I, I tell people there's never been a better time to preach the gospel than right now.

    Dave Bachman: Absolutely.

    Mike Glenn: Because of all the questions our culture is asking. Meaning, purpose, hope. All of that is, um, are, are Jesus questions.

    Dave Bachman: Hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: What, uh, what keeps you up at night?

    Dave Bachman: Hmm.

    I, you know, as you press in and get really close with people and they start sharing the real stuff going on behind closed [00:52:00] doors, uh, it can be heavy. Mm. Um, the sexual identity, confusion and addiction that, that people open up to be in our team about it can be overwhelming. Um, and if you've spent 10 years nursing that addiction, and you expect it to be take to be fixed, right.

    As soon as you become a Christian, or as soon as you start praying about it and thinking about it mm-hmm. And getting help, it could be a, it could be a equally 10 year journey.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And, and that. That's hard. It takes

    Mike Glenn: as long to walk out as it did to walk in.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah. And along the way, it, it could be really easy to lose heart.

    And so, um,

    Mike Glenn: hence the relationship, friendship, hang in there

    Dave Bachman: with

    Mike Glenn: you're normal. This is what everybody goes

    Dave Bachman: through. Yeah. Keep speaking the truth. Mm-hmm. And keep speaking grace, um, and, and, and, and say, I'm not going anywhere. [00:53:00] Yeah. I'm with you. I don't think less of you after you shared that with me. Mm-hmm.

    Um, I have more in common with you as a sinner in need of God's grace mm-hmm. Than I do as some person who has a, you know, than I have in common with God and trying to pull you up to our standard now. Yeah. I'm, I'm with you in this, you know.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, the, the business community, uh, is, uh, you know, Charlie Munger and, and, and, and people like that are riding on the power of consistency.

    Dave Bachman: Hmm. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Not, not the big flash in the pan, but showing up every day and moving the ball just a little further down the field. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Small steps that end up going. The big journey. Small investments that end up with a large payoff, but this consistency of showing up. Most people do not have a consistent friend.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Don't know who to call in the middle of the night, don't know who they can count on. [00:54:00] They don't even have a person they can share good things with.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: You know, nothing is worse than having something good happen in your life. Yeah. And you're not having anybody to tell

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: To, to celebrate with you.

    Uh, so with that, we keep hearing about this crisis of meaning in our culture.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: What's been your experience with that?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Well, if you grow up and no one tells you. What to think, what to believe. You go figure it out. It'll be chart your own path. Then, then people start looking and, uh, you know, without, for, for generations, you know, here it's, it's been, you know, the church has been a, a foundation for a lot of our culture.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Now people will go looking and they'll, you know, politics has become, you know, something where I can maybe find some identity mm-hmm. And meaning. Mm-hmm. And so they, well,

    Mike Glenn: I can find a group.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. [00:55:00] Yeah. Or, um, or maybe it's, uh, again, a sexual identity group. Mm-hmm. And that'll be my place where I'll find my identity.

    Something's off with me. Maybe it's this, um, and you kind of go looking and searching and, and, and, uh, you know, Christianity eventually maybe ends up on that list that Right. People are cons, you know, one of the things people might consider, uh, um, but yeah, I'm, uh, uh, uh, even just. Putting a lot of young professionals that I spend time with, kind of our alumni, you go into the workforce thinking, I'm gonna change the world and, and I'm excited about this degree I have.

    Mm-hmm. And, and then there end up in front of a spreadsheet, you know, 40 hours, 50 hours a week, and wondering is this, is this all there is to life?

    Mike Glenn: Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: And I thought, I thought work was gonna

    Mike Glenn: provide something. Never being able to get to the bottom of the email.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's right. The elusive clean inbox.

    Yeah,

    Mike Glenn: that's right.

    Dave Bachman: Um, problem is as soon as you clean it out, [00:56:00] people start responding.

    Mike Glenn: Oh, people is, yeah.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. So people are, are, they're not finding it in politics. They're not finding it in work. They're not, they're not, they haven't been exposed to church. Mm-hmm. And so they're not, they're not going there yet.

    And, and they're left thinking, you know, what is, what is their life, you know? Mm-hmm. And then at this point, I'll just numb the pain and I'll, you know, doom scroll late into the night.

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And I know I shouldn't do it, but I don't know how to stop. Um. And

    Mike Glenn: I have no reason to stop. Might as well do this. At least it's funny every now and then.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, with that,

    Dave Bachman: yeah. So, you know, Christians, I think in the last 20 years, you know, we've gotten kind of silent. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: We've

    Dave Bachman: gotten, you know, we, we maybe have been kind of forced into the closet a little bit over some of the stuff that's happened over the last 20 years. But man, people are hungry

    Mike Glenn: and thirsty now.

    Well, I think, I think the, the same crisis has been happening in the local church and that I think in a lot of [00:57:00] ways the church itself lost faith in the gospel.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: That we no longer think the preaching of Jesus is enough. We have to have influence and power.

    Dave Bachman: Mm.

    Mike Glenn: You know, we have to court certain, uh, politicians if we want our agenda taken care of, that the simple proclamation of, of, of, of the gospel isn't enough.

    And I think that has, has landed us. The, the story's always the same, right? As when, when the people were faithful, they flourished. When the people were not faithful, they ended up in exile.

    Dave Bachman: Mm. Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And I think there's a lot of what's going on right now is the church is finding itself an exile.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, with, with that, until we rediscover again, this truth that we are, we are called to share.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Okay. Um, and, and, uh, you know, I have a long history. What, what are, what are one of a handful, uh, a long history with the navigators. So tell me, uh, if, if I'm just beginning, what are the resources? [00:58:00] I would, I would, I would, I would grab hold of.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah, we have a series called the, the Design for discipleship. Right. It's kind of a seven little booklets. Mm-hmm. You can, you can go through one with someone one-on-one, or even in a small group context, or you could, you know, go through the whole series together. Right. And it'll take you from the gospel to spiritual disciplines, to how do you depend on Christ in different areas of your life.

    Um, so that's, that's great material. The topical Memory system is our scripture memory program. Right. That was, you know, almost a hundred years old itself. You buy that

    Mike Glenn: time tested, as they say.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. Yeah. If you

    Mike Glenn: buy that and all this is available on the website, navigators,

    Dave Bachman: navigators.org, or mm-hmm. Um, you know, we do our publishing through Dale now, but Nav Press

    Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: Dot com. We'll get you, we'll get you there. Um. And then, you know, if, if you wanna find a navigator, we're out there. You know, there's about 5,000 of us around the world. But honestly, to be a navigator isn't just a staff person. It's anyone that's been trained by us. Right. You know, and, and we, [00:59:00] we really, uh, try to equip and empower everyday people to, to make disciples wherever they are.

    But we, you can go online and find out, you know, where we are and what we do. And here in Nashville we're at, we're at, you know, most of the major campuses and we do some stuff with international students, young professionals. We help churches, uh, develop disciple making strategies. We have a whole division of the navigators that does that.

    Um, yeah, we love to, we love to come alongside and help and kind of play our role in the body of Christ, if the best we can.

    Mike Glenn: Alright. And the best way to get hold of you is,

    Dave Bachman: uh, nashville navigators.com. Uh, you can find us there and get in touch with the navs. Um. Yeah, we love to meet new people that are some, Nashville's such a, you know, so many new people come town, right?

    Yeah. We'd love to network and get people connected. Mm-hmm. We pair people up in mentoring relationships. We have a whole disciple maker network mm-hmm. That are constantly inviting people to be mentors in and mm-hmm. And, and then we're connected to a lot of the younger mentees and we like to connect the dots as best as we can.

    So you can, you can get connected with us [01:00:00] on, on our website.

    Mike Glenn: Okay.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: That's the big project you're working on right now.

    Dave Bachman: Ooh. I'll tell you when we just finished, um, we, uh, we tried to get the gospel of John into every single hand of a college student in Nashville. And so we partnered with 50 churches and ministries.

    Mike Glenn: That's what you say. That's that's a big, that's a big, there's a lot of colleges in Nashville. Yes. We don't realize there are a lot of schools

    Dave Bachman: here. Yeah. We, we, we picked the six major ones. It was, you know, totaling about 25, 30,000 students.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.

    Dave Bachman: And we, we gave one every, we found out, every believer that we know of, every church, every, every ministry we partner with.

    I mean, it was amazing how many people partner with us in this, but we said, could you give this to your believer in students and, and give them two. Mm-hmm. And say, who could you invite to read the Gospel of John with you? Mm-hmm. Over 21 days. God, we called it the 21 Day Challenge. And it was amazing. We got every single booklet out.

    Ah, um, stories are starting to come in of, of how God moved during that time. Some people come into faith, some [01:01:00] people, a lot of people. Beginning that one-on, on one relationship, reading the Bible together and asking their questions. And it's moved on to other things and other conversations now. But, um, it was a probably the biggest initiative I've ever been a part of and a lot of coordination and a lot of partnering, and it was amazing to, to be a part of that.

    Mike Glenn: Dave, we're hearing a lot about, and experience a lot about how millennials, gen Z and have lost faith in institutions, uh, every institution, government, education, um, family structure and, and including the church, uh, and, uh, churches are having a difficult time connecting with the, these upcoming generations.

    So what has the navigators found out, uh, about these upcoming generations?

    Dave Bachman: Yeah, sometimes there's a, there's a bridge. Faith community to get them into the church. We, we, we love the local church. We are constantly [01:02:00] inviting, you know, uh, our, our students to get involved in the local church and impressing that.

    Um, sometimes they're more willing to, yeah, walk across campus and come to a, uh, a Bible study in a, in a right, in a classroom or a lecture hall or whatnot. Um, and, and that'll be kind of a middle, a middle place for them to find other, find, find the church eventually. Um, there's probably other ways to create kind of the, uh, kinda that third place environment where people might come and it's less intimidating and things like that.

    Um,

    Mike Glenn: so, so you're saying that Okay, lemme see My little Alabama mind can, can figure this out here. Okay. I'm saying that the church, and I mean the Gen X and, and, and the following generations have lost trust in institutions, including the church. Your suggestion is the best way for the church to reestablish that trust is not in [01:03:00] institutional stuff, but in the one-on-one discipling conversations that that trust is more easily established between two people.

    Life on life.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah. It's very tactical, very like hand to hand.

    Mike Glenn: Yeah.

    Dave Bachman: You know, uh, very personal. Um, yeah. With when, when someone experiences more of a go-to versus a come to approach and, and, uh, there's a lot of nonprofits or Christian, um, you know, parachurch groups and we're, we're go-to mm-hmm. We wanna go, come to you on your turf.

    Mm-hmm. Hmm. Meet you there. Yeah, because we're coming to you, there's a little bit of credibility, there's a little bit of natural, right. You're in my, you're in my zone. Um, they feel more comfortable and we're able to befriend them and encourage them. And, and after building that high trust relationship, Hey, you gotta come with me and be a part of this.

    Or did you know there's a group of us that meet over [01:04:00] here? Right. And it, it has to go beyond the one-to-one. I think one-to-one is a great, it's a great starting point, and it's also a great place to go deeper. But we need, we need way more than that. Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: Well, you're limited in what one person can bring to the conversation.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah.

    Mike Glenn: You know, my thing to the church is all of us have a gift that is needed in the kingdom. None of us have all the gifts.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: And the reason is there's something about us working together that manifests the glory of God in a way that one person cannot. Mm.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Uh, and as gifted as you are there, make 'em a time when, if, if we were working together, you would say, you know, you need to talk to a friend of mine.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Because that's what he does. Mm-hmm. And expand that, uh, group because one person can't

    Dave Bachman: mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Be everything.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Uh, to anybody. Uh, as, as, as, as far as that goes.

    Dave Bachman: I'll tell you a story. There was a student that we met, uh, named George a couple years ago, and he came by our, you know, [01:05:00] survey table mm-hmm.

    That we had set up on campus, and he filled out this little survey and it was a short five question survey. And it, it said, uh, what's your spiritual background? He said, none. What's your spiritual interest? He said, you know, from one to five, he said five high. He says that increased or decrease in the last six months, he said increased.

    Would you be interested in talking to someone more about, you know, some of your spiritual questions? Absolutely. You get this card and you're like, okay, and he puts this damn phone number. I'm thinking, I'm calling this guy. Yeah. I called up George and met with him for a meal, and, uh, he said, he, he told me later, he said, I was super nervous about that meal, but, but I thought, you know, I, I put all this in the card, I better do it.

    Yeah. We met up in the student center and on again on his turf in his world, and, and I just said, you know, tell me some of your story. And he kind of shared some, and I said, let me, I about five minutes, I can explain to you the, kinda the big picture of what is Christianity, what it's all about. Mm-hmm. And if you want discuss it more, I'd love to have that conversation with you.

    And so I showed him an illustration, the bridge illustration, and he said, this is really interesting. And I invited him to read, read the book of John with me. We read for an [01:06:00] entire year together all along. I mean, he was, he was introduced to me to these different, you know, even Christian YouTubers and podcasters I'd never heard of.

    Mm-hmm. That he was watching. Uh, in his spare time, uh, he was, he started reading, uh, we would read just a little bit together. He would go home and read more. And, and come back with questions and thoughts and ideas. And I thought, this guy is so hungry. Um, he even told me what he had this funny dream about, you know, he was in this place, he shouldn't have been, but there was a bible like circling above his, around his head and he just kind of thought, I need to keep looking at the Bible and stay focused on whatever the Bible's about.

    Like what is happening here? God is after this guy, I guess. And uh, sure enough, after a year, um, he, he came to Faith and uh, called me up and we celebrated together. And it was over the summer. He, he got home and I all hit him. When he got back into his, his home environment, that what he was talking with me about and learned about Christianity was, was, was, was what he had been looking for his whole life.

    Right. And we went back home, it kind of settled in like, this place has nothing for me and. [01:07:00] Then we invited him into our community with the navigators and he for, I mean, for an entire year, he would not stop saying this one thing, you guys who grew up around this, you have no idea. People do not experience this kind of community.

    That's right. The love, the attention, the care is like every interaction that I've had with you people is 10 times more life giving than any interaction I've had with anybody else. And I don't even know, I don't even know you guys that well. I'm still getting connected to you. Mm-hmm. I mean, we, I think we, we forget how powerful Christian community can be.

    How do we get 'em there? That's the big question. Right. But once they start to get there and taste it, and sometimes they do, you know, belong before they believe you've probably heard that, and they kind of hang around for a while before they make their decision. And um,

    Mike Glenn: well, you know, the old, the old preacher joke was, there's two, two ways to get into church friendship and kinship.

    You know, you come, you come to church and uh, and you sit, if you walk in by yourself, it's pretty difficult. Mm-hmm. [01:08:00] If you walk in and I tell the church, Dave's my friend.

    Dave Bachman: Mm-hmm.

    Mike Glenn: You know, we, Dave and I play softball together, whatever, da da, da, da. Yeah. You know, and, uh, and then you will, the doors of acceptance opened up.

    Dave Bachman: Hmm. For sure. Mike will tell you my watch, just, uh, vibrated because I have a timer on here, set for 9:38 AM every morning, and that's, uh, Matthew 9 38. It's kind Jesus, you know, it's set about him. He had, when he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they're harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd, shepherd.

    Then he said, the disciples, you know, the harvest is plentiful. The labors are few. Pray to the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send up more laborers into his harvest field. And so every time that goes on, I say a little prayer in my, in my head, just that, Lord, would you, would you help us to raise up more?

    Laborers for the kingdom workers for the kingdom who can intentionally and personally invest in other people's lives. Mm-hmm. Who are never gonna step foot in a church, who are never gonna come to this or that thing that we do, but who are gonna live next door [01:09:00] and be in the cubicle across the way.

    That's right. Be in the dorm room next door. And, um, as I've been praying this for about 10 years, and I've just seen some amazing things happen when, when someone realizes that God wants to use your life

    Mike Glenn: Right.

    Dave Bachman: And he can use your life with all your problems

    Mike Glenn: and challenges, the ministry is return to the people.

    Dave Bachman: Absolutely. The

    Mike Glenn: church takes on a whole new life.

    Dave Bachman: It's not boring. I mean, step out and try sharing your faith with someone and be vocal and open and, and even forward about your faith. I mean, it's, it's crazy. Your knees will be shaken. Yeah. And you're thinking this isn't, this is anything but boring. Um, it's challenging and it's exciting and it's adventurous.

    What, what's gonna happen next? God, you know, who are you gonna lead me to talk to next?

    Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know. I've been a follower all my life. Bo bored is never part of of my day. You know, it's, uh, always something fascinating and interesting, uh, going on. So I hope if folks are listening and they are intrigued that they will reach out to [01:10:00] you@nashvillenavigators.org

    Dave Bachman: com,

    Mike Glenn: com.com, nashville navigators.com.

    Alright, Dave, thanks for being with us.

    Dave Bachman: Yeah, thanks Mike.

Kylie Larson

Kylie Larson is a writer, photographer, and tech-maven. She runs Shorewood Studio, where she helps clients create powerful content. More about Kylie: she drinks way too much coffee, is mama to a crazy dog and a silly boy, and lives in Chicago (but keeps part of her heart in Michigan). She photographs the world around her with her iPhone and Sony.

http://www.shorewoodstudio.com
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