When God Calls You and You Already Have a Job | Gerald Cook
Many believers assume God's calling begins when they leave their career behind. Gerald Cook's story suggests the opposite. Mike Glenn sits down with Gerald, a bi-vocational pastor, global sales training manager, and nationally recognized dog trainer, to explore how God used decades in business, discipleship, and everyday life to prepare him for pastoral ministry. Together they discuss why calling is often discovered through ordinary faithfulness, how the workplace can become a training ground for ministry, and why the future of the church depends on ordinary believers recognizing that God has already been preparing them for His purposes.
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Mike Glenn: Gerald Cook, the pastor of College Grove Baptist Church- Yes, sir ... uh, is, uh, joining, uh, me today on the podcast. And, and, and Gerald, I don't know where to start. Do we start with you as, uh, the business trainer who, uh, works for a major corporation and goes all over the world, uh, training salespeople and, and all of that stuff?
Uh, the, the l- literally nationally known dog trainer. Uh, and in full disclosure, I have one of those dogs. Uh, and, uh, and, and now the pastor of a church. Where do you wanna begin?
Gerald Cook: I am a lot of things. I am gifted in a lot of ways, and God made me special, but he also made me slow.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And, um-
Mike Glenn: Methodical is what we would say,
Gerald Cook: yeah
methodical I'll take. Okay.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.
Gerald Cook: Um, you know, I, I've been Baptist all my life, um, despite the fact that, um, [00:01:00] my dad is Southern Baptist, my mom is Catholic.
Mike Glenn: Oh.
Gerald Cook: And so I came to faith- Asking a lot of questions. Mm-hmm. Why do my cousins do this? Why don't we do that? Mm-hmm. And so forth. Um, but I've always, always been in the Baptist Church, and raised the kids in the Baptist church.
And was pursuing a career in pharmaceuticals, medical device, business sales, et cetera. Taking a lot of classes and training on how people think and why they do what they do, and I was balancing that all the time with- Mm-hmm ... discipleship and why do I do what I do. Mm-hmm. And not to get into Paul's do, do message about- Mm-hmm
what I want to do but don't do and all of that. Mm-hmm. And it was my son actually who after being raised in the church, he went off to college. And I remember the day he called me and he said, "Hey, [00:02:00] Dad, you remember when you said this and you said that, and you told me one day this will happen- Mm-hmm ... and one day you'll see that?"
I said, "Yeah." He goes, "I get it now." Mm-hmm. And he went off to college and he saw that people were raised differently and doing things differently. And I started men's groups and was, was speaking into different situations of people and different groups and areas. And, and my son told me, he says, "You need to do what you did with me for more people because-
Mike Glenn: Okay
Gerald Cook: I know who I am."
Mike Glenn: High compliment there, Dad.
Gerald Cook: At college. I, thank you. Yeah. It, it was- High compliment ... it was, it was that moment where I got it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And all the hard work, all of the discipline, all of the discipleship started to surface.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And he said, "You need to do more of that." So I started a men's group, and I started talking to his friends a little differently.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: Um, [00:03:00] my daughter was still at home. I started talking to her friends a little differently. Um, the boys a lot differently.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Um- If they're dating your daughter, they got a whole different spiel, huh?
Gerald Cook: Oh, that's right. They got, they got the- Yeah ... the Old Testament version. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And, um, but I was...
My son inspired me to start learning more, uh, officially- Okay ... and, and pursuing
Mike Glenn: things differently. All right. You say, you say your son inspired you, and we, we've talked about this o- on other occasions. What is it that your son thought his friends needed from you?
Gerald Cook: Mm. I don't think they understood discipline.
Um When he was in middle school and high school, they knew that Austin's dad was strict. They didn't know why. They understood that Austin would do certain things to a certain point- Mm-hmm ... and then stop and recognize where he was, and he understood time and place. Mm-hmm. Which to this day, if my kids are in the [00:04:00] room and you say time and place, they will sit up and look and check themselves in the situation.
And-
Mike Glenn: Which means, what do time and place mean? It
Gerald Cook: means there's a time and place for that behavior, and this isn't it.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Gerald Cook: And what I learned through watching my son was that you can apply discipline, but you have to be disciplined.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: To discipline the verb, you have to have discipline the noun, so you can be consistent, so you can be true.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: So you c- you have that, that north star of truth.
Mike Glenn: So what you teach is what you are.
Gerald Cook: As it turns out, that, that's very true.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. That seems to, that seems to be a consistent theme. Yeah. What you teach is what you are.
Gerald Cook: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Gerald Cook: Yep. So I started leaning in to understanding the Old Testament differently, the, the New Testament, um, my theology, uh, really, um, understanding why I do what [00:05:00] I do.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Gerald Cook: And reasoning-
Mike Glenn: Now, when you say theology, any time we would say theology to the normal pew sitter-
Gerald Cook: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: they would say something like, "Uh, I'm not that smart. Uh, I don't have that kind of time. You know, I, I, I'm, I'm not that deep in it."
Gerald Cook: Mm.
Mike Glenn: So when you say you started thinking about your theology, what are you saying?
Well- You went and got a bunch of commentaries or...
Gerald Cook: No, I- Um- It started with something I think you had a hand in starting with Timothy and Titus. Yeah, T&T. T&T-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: at, at Brentwood, and we had to write that statement of what do we believe and why do we believe it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And that's where it started
Mike Glenn: for me.
And the first ath- really, when we did that, T&T was a discipleship program where we, where we looked for leaders and then took them to another level with the idea that they would work out how they saw themselves being used by God. The first thing was, tell me what you believe and why you believe it. That was the first time most of them, including I guess [00:06:00] you- Yeah
had sat down long enough and said, "Okay, what is it that I actually believe and why do I believe it?"
Gerald Cook: What do I believe? Why do I believe it? And here was the hard part for me. Does my life look like that?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: Am I doing what I said I'm, I believe?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And I, that's been a, a, a, a more recent question with a lot of people that podcast and, and have platforms is, you know, what would it really mean to believe this?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: How would that shape my behavior? How would I see things differently? In fact, that's a, a class I'm doing at College Grove right now is Christ- And culture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And how do we view culture through a worldview, a postmodern worldview, a post-Christian worldview- Mm-hmm ... or a biblical worldview? And In what areas are we adopting, conforming to the culture?
Mm-hmm. And what areas do we recognize and then [00:07:00] stand firm that, "Nope, this is how I view that. It's right. It's wrong." Mm-hmm. "And therefore, I'm gonna make this decision, not that decision."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: And that's a, a powerful reflecting practice to sit down and, and write out what do you believe- Yeah ... why do you believe it, and are you, are you living that way?
Mike Glenn: Right. Now- But- ... y- you, you're a, you're a pew sitter.
Gerald Cook: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And, and, and, and I say that j- just to kinda, uh, help, help our, h- help our audience understand where you were.
Gerald Cook: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay? This, you know, you, you were bringing your family to church, you were doing all those good things. Now you're leading a group and, and, and now we begin this, this journey, which is not a straight line-
Gerald Cook: No
Mike Glenn: uh, of you ended up in a, in a bi-vocational, uh, pastorate.
Gerald Cook: Yeah, so I, I started a, a sportsman's group. Mm-hmm. And a lot of folks told me, "Gerald, you're not gonna find a lot of guys in [00:08:00] camo who like to hunt and fish in this location." The first night we had, like, 22 guys- Yeah, I remember ... show up. And working, sitting and working with them, they started saying things to me that I didn't recognize in myself.
Th- they started recognizing fruits of the spirit that I hadn't been planning on.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: Things like, "Gerald, where did you get so patient for people who don't understand this?" Mm-hmm. Or, "How... Where did you get your patience to teach people how to behave in a duck blind or how to handle guns? And you seem so calm around somebody handling a gun for the first time."
Mm-hmm. I'd be terrified.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And perhaps I should've been.
Mike Glenn: Now that you think about
Gerald Cook: it, right? But, yeah. Th- that st- those comments started to f- to speak to me a little bit. Meanwhile, I was in TNT. I loved it. Mm-hmm. I started to pursue additional education in the form of seminary. Mm-hmm. And I was [00:09:00] taking a class on, uh, bible exposition and with some guy named Matt Pearson.
I don't know if he's still around anymore. Yeah, just right, yeah. Yeah. But he looked at me and he said, "W- This comes easy to you, doesn't it?"
And I said, "Well, when I was in college, I was an English major in expository writing." Mm-hmm. And when I said it out loud, that expository writing practice- Mm-hmm ... clicked for me as to why I can exegete the text- Mm-hmm ... so, so n- naturally and comfortably and break that down. So that was another switch that went off.
Mm-hmm. And then I started to recognize that everything I was learning at work for the last 25 years in- regulatory writing, sales, business leadership, training, leadership development started to show up in how I was behaving at church [00:10:00] as an usher, as a deacon.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Working in the welcome center and training people to evangelize, training people to practice their gifts.
Uh, working with Michelle Dyer on, um, the discovery class and how we apply DISC, for example- Mm-hmm ... into, and combine that with our gifting to do what is naturally building up the body-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: in a more overt and intentional manner. All of these things were running through my mind.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Gerald Cook: And-
Mike Glenn: Why is it so difficult for us to recognize our own giftings?
Gerald Cook: We take it for granted.
Mike Glenn: Okay, okay. Yeah. You're all of a sudden you're in a duck blind, you're doing what you love to do, and people are calling out behavior That affirms your calling [00:11:00] into the ministry.
Gerald Cook: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: But they're doing it in a, in a, in a duck blind and in, in a shooting range and that kind of stuff.
They're... You, you see what I'm saying?
Gerald Cook: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: They're recognizing something in a, a situation where you wouldn't think that those things would be recognized.
Gerald Cook: Right. Yeah, hospitality.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: Uh, it, you know, in the duck hunting world an invitation to go duck hunting with someone is gold. Mm-hmm. Um, an invitation to go onto somebody's private land to hunt is, is gold.
I was inviting people. Mm-hmm. That stood out. I was shoulder to shoulder with somebody teasing them about the way they, they did something and it broke down some barriers- Mm-hmm ... where we started to laugh about how we do things, why we do things. Yeah. We got into conversations where next thing you know people are telling me, "Well, here's what's going on at work."
And I could speak into that. Mm-hmm. I could, I [00:12:00] could hear them differently than they would in other settings. Mm-hmm. And that was another thing that was starting to run through my mind as I was equipping for the ministry. But ultimately it was in April of 2023 I believe. I was in the second row at Brentwood Baptist and I know you had taken attendance 'cause you nodded in my direction at that point.
We were where we were supposed to be. But some, at some point in that sermon you said, "One of you career business guys out there is gonna go back to seminary. You're gonna equip yourself for the ministry and you're gonna find yourself the pastor of a local church." Mm-hmm. We left there and I, I told Tammy, "He said everything but my name."[00:13:00]
That's when I knew- Mm-hmm ... that there was another step for me. Mm-hmm. And that's when I had to start eating my own lunch, my own cooking all around. Mm-hmm. What I had been telling my son, his friends, others in the duck blind that they need to take the next step of obedience-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: because they knew what to do, they were just afraid to do it.
And that's when discipline hit again.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: I had to be disciplined to hear the call, answer the call, and take the step.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: You know, and this is where some dog training comes in as well. When I'm training my dogs, I have to stop and think about the discipleship that I'm actually going through. Mm-hmm.
One of the first things I tell my dogs is to sit, be still, be calm, and I hear the Psalm, "Be still and know that I am God." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:14:00] And I have to sit and be still and be calm, or that dog will never be calm. Right. When I train them to walk, when I'm ... I back up with them first so that they're following me I walk side by side with them so that they're following me and keeping an eye on me.
Mm-hmm. Then I turn side by side and they naturally heel with me. And Ephesians comes to mind. Mm-hmm. Walk in a manner worthy of your calling. Mm-hmm. The pinnacle of training dogs, though, is when you can get a dog who did not see the bird fall or did not see the bumper in the training field fall- Mm-hmm ... you bring that dog alongside of you, you sit it down, you point that dog in a direction, you put your hand out, and you say, "Back.
Go back." That [00:15:00] dog doesn't know what's out there But trusts me enough to know that if I go where he tells me to go, something great is about to happen. That's right. We call it a blind retrieve. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It is very much Hebrews 11:1. Mm-hmm. It, it, it's an act of faith. You don't see it, but you're confident it's there.
Mm-hmm. And that comes from trusting God time over time over time and knowing that he has always been faithful, and he will be faithful again.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: I had to trust that when I stepped out and said, "Okay, I'm going to go to College Grove, and I'm gonna hear what they have to say as a church that's struggling-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Gerald Cook: perhaps considering closing their doors." My first thought was, "I know nothing about this." Mm-hmm. But I was in seminary for church revitalization. I had support staff around me, and I [00:16:00] knew that God had always been faithful in the past and he would be faithful again And that's when shepherd the flock of God amongst you just rang out in my head.
Mm-hmm. And it was one of those moments I almost called you 'cause you would... I, I was waiting for that question, "What have you been reading and what is God teaching you?" Well, I had been reading- Yeah ... in Peter.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: And shepherd the flock amongst you- Yeah ... just rose to the surface in that moment. And I knew, as you also say related to Hebrews 11:1, God won't tell you the second step-
Mike Glenn: Till you do the first
Gerald Cook: until you take that first.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And that's- literally
Mike Glenn: how it happens Drives me
Gerald Cook: nuts.
Mike Glenn: People come say, "I need to know the will of God." Well, you know three things right now God wants you to do. Right. You're not doing those, so why is he gonna tell you the fourth?
Gerald Cook: Yeah. If you don't have discipline, you can't go discipline.
Mike Glenn: No, that's exactly right. Yeah. All right. Well, one of, one of the fun things about you, Gerald, is, uh, you are a, a nationally [00:17:00] known dog trainer.
Gerald Cook: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, you know, one of our first conversations, you were flying back from Ireland and, you know, and had to go to Iowa the next week to deliver a dog, and-
Gerald Cook: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: uh, I mean this, this is, this is, this is not having puppies.
Gerald Cook: No,
Mike Glenn: no. This is, this is, this is a, a, a legitimate, recognized... If, if I'm serious about hunting and I need dogs to do this hunting, then I'm gonna know Gerald Cook, and I'm gonna be in contact with him and hopefully get one of these puppies, which full disclosure, I now have. That's right. And, uh, uh, and so, uh, you are, uh, traveling the world doing international training for your corporate life.
Gerald Cook: Correct.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Um, dog trainer, seminary training, which the, which [00:18:00] one best prepared you for, for leading a church? Now my, my, my guess is the dog training.
Gerald Cook: The dog, the dog training taught me a lot about patience.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And it also, it also affirmed to me that nobody's gonna follow me if I'm panicked.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Nobody's gonna follow me to a place that I'm nervous to go, um, that i- if I lack faith and if I lack vision, if I lack an understanding. And they're also not gonna follow me there if I tell them to do it.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: They will literally follow me there, and dogs work the same way.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Um, in my... I'm a global sales trainer for a medical device company, and I train methodologies.
Mm-hmm. And I train skills. And whether I'm thinking about the corporate behavior of setting policies, setting budgets, [00:19:00] designing, you know, plans- Mm-hmm ... and, and, uh, project management tasks, things fall into spreadsheets and they fall into lines, and everything looks great on paper. Mm-hmm. When I'm training methodologies, you have a process to move through a, a, a sales cycle, for example, or a process by which you plan an account, uh, approach.
Your budgets, your methodologies, all of that is great. People don't follow that. Mm-mm. They're aware of it, but the black and white tells people when they're in bounds or out of bounds. The magic happens in the gray areas when you have to hear and feel and understand the decision-making process when somebody can't see the black and white.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: That's where the magic happens. That's where the relationships occur. That's when trust is built.
Mike Glenn: Mm. All right. [00:20:00] Go a little deeper there.
Gerald Cook: Yep. So-
Mike Glenn: When, when you say gray area- Mm-hmm ... that, that frustrates a lot of people.
Gerald Cook: It does. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay, because there are no clear rules and there are no clear boundaries.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. When you think of boundaries and rules and black and white, that gives people a baseline of how they know where they can go and where they can't go.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Another dog training analogy. Yeah. You've seen these invisible fences.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: If you train those well, a dog will see the white flags around the fence or around the yard-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Gerald Cook: and you will walk them out there and let them hear the beep, and when the beep goes off you'll run back with them- Mm-hmm ... so they don't get the shock or the buzz- Mm-hmm ... or whatever the, the setting is. And you do that over and over again until they realize that that beep, that buzz, is warning them not to go any further.
Then you start removing the flags and they learn I've got this whole big yard- Mm-hmm ... to run [00:21:00] around in and I know where the line is. Mm-hmm. That's compliance. Yeah. If you don't train that, if you just send the dog out there and it gets zapped, it's gonna come back on the porch 'cause something out there bit me.
And I don't know where it was and I don't know- That's right. Yeah ... when I hit it-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Gerald Cook: but it hurt.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: So I'm just gonna stay here. And they live in a very small area- Right ... and they don't get to have a fun, full life. It's when they get out into the gray that they realize-
Mike Glenn: Ah, okay. There we go ...
Gerald Cook: now I'm living in the sweet spot.
Yeah. I'm going where other people are afraid to go.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: I, I'm, I'm trusting in what I've been trained and what I know to be true and I'm having fun-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: in the meantime. That's, that's where trust is built and their self-confidence is built in themself, knowing that my master has told me where the lines are-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Gerald Cook: [00:22:00] and I can live within them.
Mike Glenn: Live within the lines. Yep. Okay. Good stuff. Good stuff. Uh- Most pastors I talk to are, are w- worried about time.
Gerald Cook: Uh.
Mike Glenn: I don't have enough time to do everything. That's right. That's right. Where do you find the time?
Gerald Cook: Number one, I got rid of TV. Mm-hmm. So in my coaching we talk a lot about eliminating the distractions, eliminating the static- Mm-hmm
elimin- eliminating all of the things that stand in the way of your goals.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: TV had to go That was, that was first and foremost. It's amazing what you can get done when you're not watching the news or the next ballgame- Right ... or the team you don't care about.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: That went away.
Mike Glenn: Okay. All right, let's talk, let's talk about the decision.
You didn't get rid of the TV because it led you into disobedience.
Gerald Cook: Correct.
Mike Glenn: [00:23:00] Okay. It wasn't a bad thing that you got rid of. No. It just wasn't a best thing.
Gerald Cook: Right. Right. It wa- it was not helping me achieve the goal.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Gerald Cook: It was distracting me away from better.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: I wasn't reading as much, I wasn't writing as much, and I was distracted from it.
It became what the, the famous author Steven Pressfield calls resistance.
Mike Glenn: Right. Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: In, in The War of Art-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: book that he wrote.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: He talks about resistance. Resistance is anything that you choose to do other than what you know you should.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Gerald Cook: TV was one of those. Uh-
Mike Glenn: Well, Jonathan Franzen, the, the, uh, the writer, uh, put hot glue in the, uh, internet port of his-
of his, of his laptop.
Gerald Cook: It's hard to resell the laptop- Yeah, yeah ... when you do that.
Mike Glenn: So.
Gerald Cook: But I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So he literally cannot hook up to the internet, so.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. [00:24:00] No d- time is... You know, they say it's the, it's, it's the one thing we spend and we don't know the balance of. Right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: So time was a motivator too, though.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Because I'm 52 years old. I don't have 30 or 40 years of preaching ahead of me. Mm-hmm. I don't have 30 or 40 years of discipling my kids ahead of me. That's gone.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: It's, I'm working on borrowed time, if anything.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: So yes, time is-
Mike Glenn: I told my wife the other day, I said, "We're at the age now where if anything happens, nobody's surprised."
Gerald Cook: That's right. That's right. They're just wondering-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... how- They may be sad- Yeah ... but they won't be surprised.
Gerald Cook: They might be surprised it took that long, but yeah, it's coming. So for me, time is, is something that I wanna spend wisely.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And if, and I make choices very deliberately as to what I'm doing, when I'm doing.
Mm-hmm. You know, not too long ago, [00:25:00] I was getting a master's in church revitalization. I was teaching Wednesday nights. I was teaching Sunday mornings. I was preaching Sunday mornings. I was working full-time f- as a global sales training manager, traveling internationally. Mm-hmm. We had two litters of puppies, and I was training the dogs that I would hunt with that fall.
It forced me to segment my time according to my goals- Mm-hmm ... better than any class I ever took. Yeah. Because I wanted to do each of those well. Mm-hmm. There was a responsibility there, there was a discipline there. And what I found was- Mm-hmm ... there was great reward there. But the reward was coming in, in ways that you never would have sold me on.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: You know? It's the, the reward, and, and Matt told me this too. The, the reward in discipleship and preaching and so forth is, is not fast. No. You
Mike Glenn: know? No.
Gerald Cook: If [00:26:00] you want instant gratification-
Mike Glenn: There's a reason Jesus talked about agriculture.
Gerald Cook: That's right.
Mike Glenn: You plant, you water, you wait. You
Gerald Cook: wait.
Mike Glenn: You weed, you wait.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. You weed, you, you- That's
Mike Glenn: right ...
Gerald Cook: I don't need this TV. Yeah, yeah. You
Mike Glenn: take
Gerald Cook: that out of the way. Yeah, yeah. I don't need this activity. You take that
Mike Glenn: out of the way. Well, and, and especially now, you know, you, you, you know, we joke, we joke about the TV and the, and the social media. But now we know that they design those programs and, uh, and, and, and all the media products to be, be addictive.
Gerald Cook: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: They have smart people going, "If you do this, you'll click the dopamine."
Gerald Cook: That's right. And people hear that, they understand that. Sometimes they even respond to it.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: But when you ask them, "Do you ever feel your phone buzz in your pocket and your phone's not in your pocket?" Mm. Half the room says, "Yeah."
Yeah. "That happens to me all the time." Yeah. Do you hear the ding of the message and it didn't ding? [00:27:00] We have conditioned ourselves to pick up the phone, to pick up the distraction, whatever it is. And when we don't do that, our body tells us to do it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah. We've become addicted.
Gerald Cook: We-
Mike Glenn: Uh, literally. Yeah
Gerald Cook: we're like the pilot that has to retrain our muscle memory to hit switches in certain orders in certain times because I'm sure this is attributed to many people, but you d- you don't rise to the occasion. You fall- You fall back to your training ... to your level of training. And discipleship is that way, life is that way.
Yeah,
Mike Glenn: you know, that's a, that's a hard thing. I mean, uh, people think, "Well, if, if I get in an emergency or a crisis situation, then I'm gonna rise to the moment."
Gerald Cook: Oh, yeah.
Mike Glenn: You don't.
Gerald Cook: We're all heroes in our mind.
Mike Glenn: You, yeah, you don't. Yeah. You, you, you drop back to, you know, the last thing you trained about this situation.
Gerald Cook: That's right. Yeah. And- And you have to prepare yourself- Mm-hmm ... when I'm in that situation, how do I want to behave?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Therefore, in sports we would say [00:28:00] practice the way you wanna play.
Mike Glenn: Right, yeah.
Gerald Cook: Life's that way as well.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Don't start down the road that you don't intend to travel.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And it doesn't matter if you're talking education- Well, you
Mike Glenn: know, that's my running joke, you know, being in Nashville so long.
I-40 goes to Memphis. You know, you get on I-40, you're going to Memphis. Now, you may feel a different way. You may not wanna go to Memphis- Yeah ... but you're going to Memphis.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. And if you end up in Knoxville-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Gerald Cook: you can go all the way back to that decision to turn left versus right.
Mike Glenn: That'd be exactly right.
You know, the big sign. They had, had the, yeah. There, there's a big sign. Had the things on there.
Gerald Cook: And everybody makes that choice. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: What are the advantages in being a bi-vocational pastor?
Gerald Cook: I think the advantage for me in the place where I am is I don't have to search for examples. I don't have to search for- Yeah
illustrations. Particularly in, in the Sunday school class that we're talking about now with Christ and culture, I don't have to turn to the news to understand what's going on. [00:29:00] Mm-hmm. And they'll ask me this, "Where do you get all this, Gerald? You don't watch the news." Mm-hmm. No, I, I have a day job. I'm 40 hours a week and more- Mm-hmm
I'm in places like our home office is in Denver, and you know that Denver is what they call the, what, the- Bellwether ... bellwether city.
Mike Glenn: Bellwether. California and Colorado are bellwethers. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: I get an early glimpse on what's coming-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: every time I go to Denver. I spend time in Europe-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: and I see what post-Christian Europe looks like today.
Mm-hmm. And I talk to people in these places that say, "This is what we were talking about a couple years ago before we're dealing with what we're dealing with now." Mm-hmm. I'm in the meeting rooms where people ask you certain questions that depending on how you answer reveals what you think and what your worldview is and who you trust- Mm-hmm
and who you [00:30:00] belong to. And I have to navigate those spaces. And therefore, I don't have to create hypothetical situations. Mm-hmm. I don't, I can, I can answer the question when one of my favorite guys at the church, Daniel, says, "What does that mean?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. "
Gerald Cook: No, I understand what the words mean. What does that mean in your life?"
In, in real life. "What does that mean when I'm walking down
Mike Glenn: the street?" Okay. And you have, you have an actual story where you can tell him this past Thursday.
Gerald Cook: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You see, the running, the running criticism of me, and, uh, and, and I had a lifelong career in, in ministry serving local churches, is that I did not live in the real world.
Gerald Cook: Yeah
Mike Glenn: Okay. When, when it w- that's great, Mike. I know you believe that, but you don't live in the real world. Like I lived on Mars during the week- ... or something. Yeah. But, you know. Yeah,
Gerald Cook: but- Like the real world never showed up on your doorstep.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, but there was a- Right ... there, but there was a perceived disconnect-
Gerald Cook: Yeah
Mike Glenn: uh, b- between [00:31:00] what I would teach and preach, and then what they, my congregation, knew to be actual reality.
Gerald Cook: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You don't have that problem.
Gerald Cook: I don't have that problem based on the fact that I've lived in, thanks to my pharmaceutical career- Mm-hmm ... I've lived in nine different cities in six different states.
Mm-hmm. From the upper Midwest to the Southeast to the West Coast. I travel to places like Europe, South America. Mm-hmm. I was in Vietnam, which by the way, was the place where somebody I was discipling at work, who's a VP of our company from Singapore, stood on the stage in Vietnam and said, "This is gonna be a great meeting.
This is gonna be a wonderful meeting that inspires you, that sets you up for success over the next year of business. But I'm a Christian, and I know that nothing will set you up for success like a relationship with Jesus Christ."
anna: Ooh.
Gerald Cook: I was standing [00:32:00] 15 feet away from her on the stage in Vietnam under the star flag- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm And I heard her announce that to a room full of APAC attendees from China- Mm-hmm ... from communist countries. And then she turned and she said, "Now I'm gonna turn it over to our trainer, Gerald." Well, I almost said- ... "Let us continue our worship by collecting-
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Gerald Cook: It w- Stand and sing. Yeah ... it was a moment.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Wow.
Gerald Cook: I get to see that in, in that situation. Mm-hmm. The other thing that I get is the fact that people look at me and say, "Well, you're 52 years old. Your hair's turning gray. Um, how long have you been preaching?" And I say, "Three years." And they look at me like, "Well, what'd you do before that?" Everything.
You, you had said one time that the thing you, you wanna hide the most- Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah ... the [00:33:00] thing that you think if, if people knew this about me- Oh, yeah, yeah ... I would just die. The
Mike Glenn: worst moment of your life becomes the first line of your testimony.
Gerald Cook: It becomes your testimony? I remember not too long ago telling people at College Grove Baptist a story about myself, and one of my deacons came up afterwards and said, "You swore us to secrecy on that."
That's exactly right. Yeah. I've been holding that- That's right ... from all of my friends 'cause- It's been
Mike Glenn: killing me.
Gerald Cook: I wanted to share that funny story about you. And you tell it from the pulpit.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, pulpit. Yeah.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. The-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: I don't struggle with transparency. Mm-hmm. I don't struggle when somebody comes and tells me, "Hey, here's what I was thinking about doing."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And I say, "Yeah, I know."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: They share things in different ways because they don't think I've lived in a bubble.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: In fact.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: And it's-
Mike Glenn: One of, uh ... Y- y- you and I have arrived at the same place from, from different way- I learned the lesson of how gifted my church was [00:34:00] very reluctantly.
Gerald Cook: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay?
Uh, uh, the, the Lord had to grab me by the nape of the neck and just say, "I didn't build you to do this. I built that person to do this." Yeah. "I gifted this person. You stay out of their way. You go and tell them and release them to do their bit." And all of the ministries at Brentwood Baptist Church, and, and, and you know them well, were led, the really effective ones, were led by gifted laypeople-
Gerald Cook: Mm
Mike Glenn: not by the staff.
Gerald Cook: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And, and, and there were a couple of times when, uh, I, I would, I would have a, a deep discussion with the Lord and the Lord would tell me, "Get out of the way."
Gerald Cook: Mm. "
Mike Glenn: I've got this person." And, uh, and I would grudgingly give the authority and then the, and the recognition to say, "Now you lead the church here in this.
I'm following you because I believe God has trained you, gifted you your whole life to be re- You know, y- [00:35:00] your story is similar to Joe Hudson's, who built four plants. And now we get ready to do the building and- ... and, you know, I'm, I wanna go lead the building, and the Lord says, "That's not you. I've trained Joe."
Gerald Cook: That's right
Mike Glenn: Now you go tell Joe he takes this and you stay out of it. And I would watch Joe and there would be, uh, a, a time when he would make a decision. I would say, "Oh, he's messed up now. He's gonna, he's gonna have to..." And what I would have decided was wrong.
Gerald Cook: Right.
Mike Glenn: Joe did it right. And I have thanked God so many times He let me be embarrassed by myself.
You know? Oh, I would be so bad if I did. Oh, thank you for just, this is just between you and me, Jesus, but I'm ashamed of what, what I would have done in this moment. Uh, so I have learned, hey, this works. Right. If I sit down with a, with, with a person and go, "Hey, let's find out how you're gifted, then I'm gonna [00:36:00] release you to that ministry."
Okay, that's ... You don't have that. If, if, if you don't give your ministry away, it doesn't get done. No. 'Cause you're in Denver or you're in Europe. Or someone is in the hospital and, and, and, and you don't have that.
Gerald Cook: That's absolutely correct. Right. I, I don't have the time to be tempted to do it myself- Right
in a lot of cases.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Um, and that's also where my training has come in around leadership development.
Mike Glenn: Oh, okay.
Gerald Cook: I learned a long time ago watching people make mistakes, um, we call them wise. Th- I've watched wise people make mistakes- Mm-hmm ... and then give it, give those mistakes away. Mm-hmm. And recognize that leadership is about getting results through others.
Mm-hmm. And the greatest example we have is Matthew 28. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, who in their right mind, other than God with [00:37:00] perfect vision, would say, "I'm going away and I'm gonna leave y'all in charge- That's right ... to go out and spread this- Mm-hmm ... to a bunch of buffoons like me." Mm-hmm. Um, but because of the training that I've seen in the corporate world where they prepare people, they test people before they put them in a role-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Gerald Cook: they don't fall victim to hoping people rise to the occasion. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, Jesus did that. He sent them out two by two- He- ... several times before- Correct ... He released them to the ministry.
Gerald Cook: And then brought them back- Right ... and said, "How'd that go?"
Mike Glenn: That's right. Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: What would you do different? He coached them-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Gerald Cook: and built them up to the point where now He knew when He s- put them in situations they could handle it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: So He created a learning development program for the disciples, not because they were the smartest in the world-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: but because they had good coaching and they knew what good- Right ... looked like.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: They knew what the Father looked like 'cause they had seen Jesus.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: Very early and [00:38:00] against their will to some degree, I've had to develop people at, at the church because I'm not gonna be there every night. Mm-hmm. So I've sent folks through the Go Certificate Program at Southeastern.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: Uh, I've, I've brought in mentors to call people at my church to help inspire them- Mm-hmm
to see the gifts that they don't see in themselves because that's what the revitalization effort looks like.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: It's, my role is not to go in and save College Grove Baptist Church.
Mike Glenn: No.
Gerald Cook: My role as a pastor is to go in and equip the saints for the ministry I think part of the reason they ended up in the situation they were in is 'cause they didn't realize that they were the saints for the minister.
Mike Glenn: That's right, yeah.
Gerald Cook: And now that they recognize- Yeah. And,
Mike Glenn: and you end up with hero, hero leaders.
Gerald Cook: They would, yeah. Yeah. They'd bring in a consultant. Right. They would bring in someone that would, you know, fabricate a situation for a few [00:39:00] weeks- Mm-hmm ... and then go away. Uh, when we started College Grove, you know, I was tempted to call some of the churches around the area and say, "Hey, will you send your Sunday school class to meet here for a Sunday- Mm-hmm
so we look like we're full?" Mm-hmm. I didn't want that. I wanted to watch the fruit of the spirit grow on the vine- Right ... so that when those prayer requests start walking in the doors and filling the pews- Mm-hmm ... I recognize it. Yeah, yeah. I see it. Um, now I have people that are doing things better than I would've dreamed of doing.
And sometimes I look at 'em and I think, "I'm glad I didn't do that." I'm really glad I didn't do that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah,
Gerald Cook: yeah. We have a,
Mike Glenn: a- You get embarrassed by yourself.
Gerald Cook: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: That's a wonderful gift of God, isn't it?
Gerald Cook: I like to think, you know, going back by my, um, you know, thinking about my son and- Yeah ... and what I did with him.
I wanna do that over and over again. Mm-hmm. But a great director of mine named Carlos told me one time, he said, "Now, be careful, Gerald. The vanity of teaching doth tempt man to forget he's a blockhead." Yeah. [00:40:00] So thankfully, when I was tempted to say, "Oh, I'm gonna go treat these young boys- Mm-hmm ... like I did my son, and I'm gonna take 'em fishing.
I'm gonna take 'em to learn to shoot a bow and all of this." Mm-hmm. The chair of my deacons came and said, "I'll do it." And he's about 10 years older than me, and he was doing great stuff. Mm-hmm. He brings me an outline of how he's forming his lesson to coincide with teaching the kids to shoot a bow and arrow and explaining sin.
Oh.
Mike Glenn: Ah, so it's connected. Ah, that's great. That
Gerald Cook: is great. Teaching them hospitality by, by pulling weeds in Mee-Maw's garden- Mm-hmm ... and how they serve. And it was this last Sunday that he had these boys, and he was talking about Father's Day. And he said, "I realized I was in the right place at the right time," because these boys said, "Well, my dad's not around."[00:41:00]
And his dad is deceased and he said, "Mine's not either." Hmm. Mm, mm, mm. And they connected in that moment- Mm-hmm ... because they were talking about the Father, the perfect Father- Mm-hmm ... in the absence of an earthly father. That's
Mike Glenn: right, yeah. Good stuff.
Gerald Cook: And it stopped me in my tracks- Yeah ... and I thought, "Thank you for not-
Mike Glenn: Could have never had that moment
Gerald Cook: putting me in that situation." Could have never had that moment,
Mike Glenn: yeah.
Gerald Cook: Because these boys needed Trey.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: They didn't need Gerald.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And they needed what Trey didn't know he had.
Mike Glenn: Right. Y- yeah Yeah.
Gerald Cook: But God doesn't show you the second step- Yep ... until you take the first.
Mike Glenn: Until you're right in the middle of the first.
Okay. You're sitting out in the pew in Brentwood Baptist Church and you said, uh, you started to, to feel like you had some kind of, kind of calling.
Gerald Cook: Right.
Mike Glenn: All right? W- Is it feeling? Is that knowing? Is that belie- what [00:42:00] is that? Or what is it for you?
Gerald Cook: Yeah. It was a culmination of a few things.
It was, it was the fact that God heard my thoughts and was responding to them in opportunities.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: So I had an opportunity to equip. I had an opportunity to, to participate in different environments in the ministry, uh, whether that be in, in serving, in teaching, in, in group leadership.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Gerald Cook: It was hearing-
Mike Glenn: I wanna stop you right here 'cause I wanna, I wanna underline a point.
You said God heard your thoughts. Mm-hmm. God heard your prayer life.
Gerald Cook: Mm.
Mike Glenn: You were seeking what God wanted you to do.
Gerald Cook: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Okay. So th- part of this comes as an answer to your prayers.
Gerald Cook: Correct.
Mike Glenn: Okay. So the first point I wanna make is God doesn't give you what you don't want.
Gerald Cook: Ah.
Mike Glenn: Okay? So if, if I'm out there but I'm not praying about this, I'm not asking, "What do you want me to do in my life?"
[00:43:00] I'm probably not ever gonna discern a call.
Gerald Cook: That's right. That's right. Yeah. And understanding that He has printed on you a plan- And you're asking him to show you what that looks like. Yes. Show me what that looks like and teach me to take the next step. And when that happens, whether it be in a small group or in a teaching opportunity- Mm-hmm
and you recognize, "I heard you." Mm-hmm. And, and you see the fruit of that. Right. And it may not come in ways that people wanna measure. You know? I, I don't answer emails all the time that come- Mm-hmm ... with, how many attended this? How many are showing up there? Right, right. How, how much have you gathered on this?
Because what I wanna write back is, "You weren't here when you saw that prayer request-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Gerald Cook: that she brought six months ago walk through the door."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: When the prodigal son [00:44:00] returns. When the- Mm ... when the family strife is resolved. But one
Mike Glenn: of the things that we're finding out, and you and I have talked about this, the metrics are wrong.
Gerald Cook: Yes. You're
Mike Glenn: asking the wrong
Gerald Cook: questions.
Mike Glenn: How, how, how, how we measure success, uh, in local church life is wrong.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. The fruit ... You know, in business, this is something else I learned, is you have leading indicators and lagging indicators.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: And the challenge is looking for the leading indicators.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, the number of people who are praying.
The number ... Yeah. Okay. And- There you go ...
Gerald Cook: and in the ministry, you get to see the leading indicators. Okay. You, you get to influence the leading indicators. You're not just a bean counter on the back end. Mm-hmm. You're actually ... And if you're shepherding- Mm-hmm ... which is a lesson I learned. If you're shepherding and walking with the people, you understand the fruit of the spirit as it's growing on the vine.
You understand the choices they've made that they would've made differently before. Mm-hmm. You recognize the progress in how God is speaking into them, and you get a front row seat-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Gerald Cook: to those things, to, to the reconciliation of relationships.
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah. All of that. That, that's what I tell people all the time.
They say, "I wouldn't have your [00:45:00] job." You don't get to see what I see.
Gerald Cook: Yeah, you don't get to see what I see.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And, and I have a very unique perspective. Mm-hmm. I'm the only person in that room looking that direction.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And, and everybody's looking back at me. Right. I get to see the people that look up from their doodling.
Mm-hmm. The people that look away at certain times. Mm-hmm. You see the movement.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: But when I was discerning this call, there were certain things that scared me too.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: And it's probably the same things that scare anybody when you mention the word evangelism. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Oh, I may not have that answer.
Probably not. Mm-hmm. But I know somebody. Mm-hmm. I don't know how I would, you know, phrase this, you know, confusing, you know, piece of doctrine. I don't know how- Mm-hmm ... I would speak to s- you know, somebody on their terms around the Trinity. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know how I'll answer a question that I haven't experienced myself.
Mm-hmm. So I knew I was called to this because [00:46:00] there were parts of me that were f- afraid to answer it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: I just knew that I had to
Mike Glenn: Yeah. When did it sink for you? When, when, when, where were you and what were you doing when you said, "Okay, I was born for this"?
Gerald Cook: I think it was the first time that
Tammy and I were in the office at the church after a particular hard Sunday, and The, the businessman in me was looking at the lagging- Mm-hmm ... indicators of success, the results and the, the numbers and, and all of those things. And I think I had just heard of a, a couple of complaints in that moment. Um, somebody didn't like the music.
Somebody, you know- Mm-hmm ... didn't understand [00:47:00] who was gonna do something that week. And operational type of things were, were starting to feel heavy and more important than they should have been. Mm-hmm. And somebody came and, and shared with me what was going on in their life and the changes that were occurring in their life.
Mm. And Tammy and I just stopped and looked at each other. And in that moment, God showed us the fruit of our effort. Mm. And we weren't the cause of it. Right. We, we didn't deliver it. We had a front row seat to it, and we helped somebody walk through that space. Mm. And we realized we were the tool-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Gerald Cook: and the hand of the craftsman. And we looked at each other and she i- it was at that pivotal moment where you get a bit of buyer's remorse.
Mike Glenn: Right. Right. Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And, and she looked at me and she said, "You know, I was wondering if we're just gonna say forget it- Mm-hmm ... and go [00:48:00] back to the big church- Yeah ... where we can just- Yeah
blend in, because this is hard."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: But in that moment we realized it was worth it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: And that the- Yeah. Mm ... rewards were something that nobody could have- Yeah ... sold us on or told us about. The
Mike Glenn: curse, the curse isn't that there's no work. The curse is that work doesn't matter. Your w- or work doesn't matter.
But when you know your work matters- Yeah ... that makes, that makes a lot of difference.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. It's, there, there have been ... That was the first. There have been multiple times where Tammy- Yeah ... and I look at each other and go-
Mike Glenn: That's why you're here ... "
Gerald Cook: This is why."
Mike Glenn: This is why.
Gerald Cook: And it comes in the form of a young boy- Mm-hmm
a young girl, a, a young adult estranged from a relationship. Mm-hmm. A married couple, a, a prodigal son. You see these things in so many different [00:49:00] colors and variations.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: But when they all come to the Father-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Gerald Cook: it will stop you in your tracks- Yeah ... and you'll hit your knees. Sure
Mike Glenn: will. It will.
Gerald Cook: And
Mike Glenn: I,
Gerald Cook: I have a hard time explaining that to
Mike Glenn: folks.
And, well, yeah. And you, you realize you have stumbled into a very holy moment.
Gerald Cook: It-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Gerald Cook: it is.
Mike Glenn: And you didn't realize it.
Gerald Cook: It is.
Mike Glenn: So what would you say to, uh, Gerald Cook 10 years ago?
Gerald Cook: Turn off the TV. Recognize and write down the decisions you're making now so you can make them faster. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Don't be intimidated by your corporate past, um, because there were a lot of things I was trying to do 10 years ago and I was intimidated.
Mm-hmm. I wasn't a missionary. I wasn't, um, you know, I didn't, I wasn't a, a pastor's child or a missionary's child [00:50:00] or anything. Mm-hmm. I didn't grow up working in the church. Mm-hmm. So oftentimes when people would say, "Well, that's great Gerald, but this is ministry. It's a little different." I wasn't- No, it's not I wasn't confident enough to say, "No, it's not."
People are people. People are people. And in my, in- Yeah ... in my vision they're all just dogs in pants. And they need a good example. They need coaching. That's right. They need encouragement. You know, Ken Blanchard has a great model out there. And, and I realized it later in seminary that we're all in R&D.
anna: Mm-hmm. Replicate and duplicate. Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: We're ... He has a model that he calls Situational Leadership too. Right To understand based on what this person's doing in front of you, you need to apply different things. You might need to apply, apply direction, coaching, encouragement, or delegation. Mm-hmm. Knowing what to apply in that moment is key.
That's where you, that's where the magic happens in the gray. Mm-hmm. You have a framework, [00:51:00] but the magic happens in the gray. That happens in business, it happens in the ministry. But I was too afraid to mix the two. Yeah. Otherwise, I'd have, I probably would've been tugging at the coach's coat saying, "Put me in a lot earlier."
Yeah, yeah. The other thing that I think I would've said was jump back into education Start equipping yourself intentionally. Because if left to our own vices, we're lazy.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: We, we'll let things flow with us. But when we intentionally get into the equipping, we start to recognize all the doors that God has had propped open for us- Yeah
a long time. The other thing I would, I would encourage anybody to do if they feel like they are being called, is to find someone they can [00:52:00] trust to help them discern that calling. Mm-hmm. If I would've followed my own path, I would probably still be out there bumping around off of people. Right. Mm-hmm. But Matt Purdum actually pulled me and sat me down in his office, and we read scripture together and he, he
We walked through gifting and he said- Mm ... "Now, tell me what you see in Gerald Cook." So I told him and he said, "No, try again." I said, "No, Matt, it's right there on the page. I read the same gifting you read." He said, "Try again." And- Yeah ... I, so I said, "Well, maybe- Of
Mike Glenn: course, Matt is now the pastor of, of, uh, Clearview.
Uh-
Gerald Cook: Well, M- yeah ... and- Matt Pearson helped me with that. Oh, this- Matt Purdum ...
Mike Glenn: Purdum. Okay, this is Pur-
Gerald Cook: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: okay.
Gerald Cook: Purdum, who's the executive- Purdum was the- ... pastor down at- Yeah, at
Mike Glenn: Clearview ...
Gerald Cook: Ab- s- or, um- Oh,
Mike Glenn: yeah ... down
Gerald Cook: in- Yeah ... Spring Hill now.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, with the discipleship guy.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. I, I think Brian W-
Gerald Cook: Matt Purdum brought me in and- Yeah
and he said, "No, what you're, what you're experiencing here, Gerald, is what we call proxemics. And yes, [00:53:00] you can do, you know, small group. Yes, you've got your three. You've got- Mm-hmm ... your 12. You've got, you know ... But I've seen you with 250 plus."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: So every time I would say, "Well, Matt, I think I can disciple this person," he'd say, "Yes, and?"
Mike Glenn: And? "
Gerald Cook: Well, I've got my small group of outdoorsmen, my sportsmen, my 12- Great ... that, that are in the blind with me." And? And he'd say, "That's great. And?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Gerald Cook: I didn't understand what he was telling me- Mm-hmm ... until he started to help me discern the calling on my life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And then I had Fadi come to me and say, "You can do this."
Mm-hmm. "They have a need in College Grove. Why don't you go talk to them?" And that's when I realized if I am called to minister, if I am called to preach, if I am called- Mm-hmm ... to shepherd a flock and there's one available, I'm gonna go do it. I've [00:54:00] now noticed that a lot of folks haven't discerned their call yet.
Mike Glenn: That's right. Haven't done the, haven't done the, the slow, difficult work of finding out who they are in Christ.
Gerald Cook: Who they are in Christ- Mm-hmm ... and, and what they're called to do. Mm-hmm. Now, I have some folks that think they might want a job.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Gerald Cook: And I've called and said, "Hey, I'm gonna be out of town. What, you know, can you f- can you come and talk to me about what it would- Mm-hmm
look like to preach that day?" And they go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." I, I think I'm busy that day
Mike Glenn: Yes, right. Yeah
Gerald Cook: It takes me back to high school when I would ask the pretty girl out- ... and she'd say, "Well, I, I think I gotta get my nails done that day." Yeah. Right. Yeah. You really don't wanna do this. Wash, washin'
Mike Glenn: my hair.
Gerald Cook: Yeah. Not gonna happen. Yeah. You really don't wanna do this Not gonna happen. Yeah So discerning that call- Mm-hmm ... is something I would encourage earlier. And, and find someone that you can, that knows you and can speak truth into you. Mm-hmm. That was a very fruitful conversation and with a positive outcome in speaking with Matt Purdum.
Mm-hmm. The first time he, he met me, he rebuked me. So going back to discipline and, and, and- Right ... what are you [00:55:00] doing. The first time I met with him was- Well,
Mike Glenn: Matt has a military background.
Gerald Cook: It, yeah
Mike Glenn: You know? And, uh, so that was- I didn't like
Gerald Cook: it ...
Mike Glenn: yeah, that was, that was, that's, that's part of his-
Gerald Cook: Yeah. I
Mike Glenn: didn't-
his spiel, man, is-
Gerald Cook: I didn't like it. I thought- Yeah ... I was walking this way. I thought I was doing this. Mm-hmm. And he said, "Now hold on. I heard you say this, but I also know that you're doing this. Those two don't align."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. "
Gerald Cook: Stop that. You need to leave here a- and, and repent of that and go this direction- Mm-hmm
tomorrow. I'm not putting you on a six-month development plan." That's right. "You need to wake up tomorrow morning and do it differently because that's what you said you are."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. We always told Matt there's something wrong with him 'cause his handwriting is so neat and- ... and precise. And I went, "Something's, something's off with you."
Well, I tell you, one of the good things about this conversation, Gerald, is with the, the, the tsunami that will be gradually hitting the church over these next few years in, in North America- Hmm ... bi-vocational- Yes ... is gonna become now the [00:56:00] standard. And, uh, and so it was a great to have a conversation. We'll stay in touch with you and have you back, see how it's going.
Okay?
Gerald Cook: Yep. I hope more people will, will really lean into that and understand that-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... you know. Across the board.
Gerald Cook: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Worship leaders, pastors, disciplers. Worship leaders,
Gerald Cook: Sunday school teachers.
Mike Glenn: All of it. All of it.
Gerald Cook: God is building you up for something great.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: And just like that dog that didn't see the bird fall, he might send you through a thorny thicket.
He might send you through, you know, knee-deep mud.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Gerald Cook: But there's a reward on the other side if you trust that He has always been faithful- Yeah ... in the past and He will be faithful
Mike Glenn: in the future. And there is a joy that comes from working with Christ, where you're in the project together-
Gerald Cook: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: you can't find anywhere else.
Gerald Cook: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Gerald, thanks for being here.
Gerald Cook: Thank you for having me.
[00:57:00]
