Pastoring People, Not Just Preaching | Matt Pearson
Most pastors don't burn out because they work hard. They burn out because they believe the ministry depends on them. Mike Glenn sits down with Matt Pearson, Senior Pastor of ClearView Baptist Church, to explore how learning to truly know his people transformed the way he leads, preaches, and develops leaders. Together they discuss why the pastor's primary role isn't to do all the ministry, but to equip others for it, why shepherding always comes before strategy, and how healthy churches are built by releasing people into their God-given calling rather than asking pastors to carry everything alone.
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Mike Glenn: Well, man, thanks for being here today. Uh, glad you are here. Uh, you know, you and I have known each other, what, 15 years now?
Matt Pearson: Uh, 11 or 12.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: I knew it was double digits,
Matt Pearson: so- Yeah. ...
Mike Glenn: I, I didn't know it was that. Yeah. So I, I mean, I, I, you know, Katie and everybody's good?
Matt Pearson: Everybody's fantastic.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Um, this time next...
This time two months from now we'll have three in college.
Mike Glenn: Oh, you're broke.
Matt Pearson: Well, yep. Yep. And so she's a realtor, so if anybody listening- ... needs a house, call me. We, we need all the help we can get. But no, everybody, everybody's great. That's good. Everybody's great.
Mike Glenn: That's good. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you, well, there's two things I want, I wanna be sure that we talk about today.
One, uh, from, from the get-go, from the very first conversations I had with you when you joined the Brentwood team as pastor at West Franklin, uh, you kept saying you wanted to be in a situation where you could pastor.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And that is [00:01:00] really be engaged with the life of your people.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And, um, uh, and know what was going on, and then let that influence, uh, color how you led.
Mm. Okay? Uh, now, m- m- and, and the reason I wanna talk about this is everybody talks about leadership as if you can go to the store and buy it. You know- Mm-hmm ... and say, "I want, I want two boxes of leadership." Mm-hmm. And, and we go home, and we, we, we, we drink the protein leadership shake, and we think that one size fits all.
Mm. One way fits all, and it doesn't.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And one of the things that we really emphasize here at the ECN is making sure your heart, your style, your gifting match the needs and the opportunities of the church you serve.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So you were at West Franklin, did a great job at West Franklin. We were really disappointed when you left to go to Clearview, but your drive out of that, I mean, uh, uh, very [00:02:00] consistently, was your desire to be in the lives of your people- Mm-hmm
and pastor.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? Mm-hmm. So, so let's talk about that.
Matt Pearson: Okay.
Mike Glenn: Uh, what was it, uh, about your own gifting and your own understanding of pastor-
Matt Pearson: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: uh, that, uh, that led you to this conclusion?
Matt Pearson: I think a couple things. Um, one is failure. Um, I pastored a couple of churches in Arkansas.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. And
Matt Pearson: I didn't realize it at the time, but I, I thought I needed to go there and give them my-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Matt Pearson: expertise, my vision, my, my thoughts. I was, I was there. Here's the leader. You, you, you follow me.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Matt Pearson: And as you can imagine, just didn't, didn't, didn't work. Um, there were times I thought it was their fault, but really it was, it was my fault.
Mike Glenn: Okay. When did you begin to understand that it was your fault?[00:03:00]
Matt Pearson: Probably
Mike Glenn: some time- Because all of us in leadership have had this moment Mm ... and if we haven't, it's coming. Mm. So hang on.
Matt Pearson: Probably at West Franklin- Mm-hmm ... and reading a lot of Eugene Peterson.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, thinking, uh, thinking that I was in Wynne, Arkansas, where it was mostly majority wealthy farmers, and I never once went and ride this tractor with them.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Which is- Almost ministry malpractice.
Mike Glenn: Exactly.
Matt Pearson: I would ask them how their farm
Mike Glenn: was. Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: But I w- I never said, "Hey, can I go see how you do the har-..." And not only could, could I have learned more of them, but I could have learned more of the Bible.
Mike Glenn: Yes, exactly.
Matt Pearson: There's so much
Mike Glenn: about planting and harvesting Well,
Matt Pearson: all, all the agricultural stories Jesus
Mike Glenn: tells-
stories.
Matt Pearson: Exactly. Yeah. And so I just began to think-
Mike Glenn: Your preaching would've been better.
Matt Pearson: Uh, much, much.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Yeah. Because I was on the tractor- Right ... saw this.
Matt Pearson: Right.
Mike Glenn: This is exactly what Jesus- Yeah ... is talking about.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, yeah. And so I would say sometime early in my time at West Franklin, I just began to think, [00:04:00] "I, I never, I never knew them."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I was only in El Dorado for a hot minute. I mean, two years, but still I had kind of that same-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: same mentality. And so a failure led, led to that and, and then me thinking, "Okay." And I guess I would hear from you and Jay and some of the others. You would ask, "What are you, what are you learning about West Franklin?"
You'd ask that all the time.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I don't know if anybody had ever asked me, "What are you learning about Wynn Baptist Church- Mm-hmm ... or First Baptist El Dorado?" And I'd just kind of think, "
Mike Glenn: Hmm,
Matt Pearson: I need to pay attention to what, what they're doing- Mm ... and who, who these people are."
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Matt Pearson: Um, also, and I didn't realize it at the time, but, you know, I, I grew up in the home of a veterinarian.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I worked for my dad's first job, and I hated it. Hated it. Um, of course scooping poop's never fun. But, um, he would have me in, as his assistant in his exam room a lot, and it was so boring. I had to act like I [00:05:00] cared about these animals. Mm. Most of them stunk. The, the owner was anxious and all this stuff.
But what I, when I look back on it now, I'm like, he was asking tons of questions of the owner and about the dog, trying to figure out. I mean, he'd been doing it for years- Mm-hmm ... but it wasn't a plug and play.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: It was let me see what's going on with this dog.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: When they walked in and, and if the owner said they had a cough, he could have easily said, "Well, let me give you some cough medicine."
Right. "I've seen this many ti-..." But he didn't. He wanted to know what was going on, and he would ask tons of questions to try to figure out and diagnose. And I thought years later, not at the time, that's pastoring.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: That's pastoring. And then when they would leave, he would never help me clean up the room.
I would clean up because he was over there taking copious notes.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: So that the next time they came in, he could... And looking back now, I'm like, that's exactly what a pastor does and tries to figure out what's going on.
Mike Glenn: Well, let's, let's, uh, let's, let's go back. That's what a pastor should do.
Matt Pearson: Mm. [00:06:00]
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
You and I know lots of pastors. We don't know many who do that.
Matt Pearson: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. True. Um, but it, it, when I think about that and use that metaphor, uh, that's kinda the approach I've taken- Mm-hmm ... so far with, with Clearview. Um, at least I hope. That's been my plan.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Is just meet with as many people as I can.
You, you would call it coffee and pie.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: I've had a lot of coffee and a lot of pie. And just listen. Uh, ask them their story.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Matt Pearson: Uh, Clearview's been through a lot. Why'd you stay?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: What's your hope? Um, and, and just, just hear, hear their, hear, hear their heart.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Let's, let's dig into this a, a little more.
You, you say you showed up to your early churches thinking that you came in as leader, okay? And that was, that was the model that we were sold- Mm-hmm ... in our training and, and all the pastor conferences and all that. Mm-hmm. That God told you, and you're gonna tell the church- Mm-hmm ... and you're God's man for the [00:07:00] thing, and that kinda stuff.
That didn't work. Okay? So what happens when you start to realize this is a really unhealthy way to lead? A- and I wanna ask two things. One, what does it do to you as a person? Mm-hmm. And as a follower of Christ? Mm-hmm. And second, what does it do to your church?
Matt Pearson: Kind of reminds me of the job descriptions that are out there for pastors- ... 30 years of age with 50
Mike Glenn: years of experience. Ex-
Matt Pearson: exit, yeah. You know.
Mike Glenn: You know.
Matt Pearson: Um, I'm sure you remember this. It was right before COVID. I had a meeting with you.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I said, "I'm, I'm burned out. I'm burned out." I had been at West Franklin four years maybe.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I, I didn't know it at the time, but it was carry over from my time in Arkansas.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. PTSD.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you said early on- Yeah ... when I was in, when I came to West Franklin, I'd been [00:08:00] there a couple months, you said at a trustee meeting, "I don't know what happened to you at Arkansas, but you're gonna be all right."
Um, a- and it wasn't that Arkansas did something. Well, it was more of what I did to me.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: And I went into this thinking it's all on my shoulders.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, I've gotta carry this load.
Mike Glenn: I gotta have every
Matt Pearson: answer. They're looking to me, um, and it's, and it's up to me. Um, I, I'm, I'm convinced, I think I told you this, that if I had still been a senior pastor during COVID, I would, I would've gotten out, Darren.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: I would've been one of those casualties. Uh, there's a lot of reasons God had me at Brentwood and West Franklin, but that was one of them, was to protect me from, from that, 'cause I would've just been done.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. '
Matt Pearson: Cause I would try to do it all myself.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: Um, I ... What it does to the pa- it just burns him out.
He c- he cannot do that. He's not wired to do that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: I mean, even the president only has four years.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Matt Pearson: You know? [00:09:00] That's right,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Um, but over time, and, and, and I can only speak for my personal ti- time and prior to coming to West Franklin, it was Ah. You, you preach and you preach and you preach, and then when you think it's all up to you, you get up early Monday and you just go, go, go, go, go, and you never, you never stop.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, and so I ... The, the only word that keeps coming to mind is burnout. N- much less the unhealth for a church-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: um, because they're looking to you. I don't know where they got sold, uh, and I'm sure we church leaders had this, um, something to do with it, but the pastor's Superman.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And we pay you to do all this stuff.
Mike Glenn: You're hired.
Matt Pearson: Right. Right.
Mike Glenn: So we don't even say the blessing at a meal anymore 'cause you're hired-
Matt Pearson: Right ...
Mike Glenn: to do that.
Matt Pearson: Right. And it was through your influence, um, I think you recommended a book, I forget the name of it, but it's on my shelf, [00:10:00] about the, um, heresy of the comma- Mm-hmm ... in Ephesians
Mike Glenn: 4:12.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Um, about equip the saints for the work of the ministry.
And, uh, somewhere along the lines we got, we got that reversed.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Where no, no, no. We, we, we hire a pastor to do all the ministry. To, to
Mike Glenn: do the ministry.
Matt Pearson: And it not only kills the pastor, but it kills the church. Mm-hmm. When the pastor leaves, the church is like-
Mike Glenn: Decapitated ...
Matt Pearson: yeah, yeah. What do we do?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, and so, um, I was really going somewhere with that, Mike.
I hope, I hope my boy here doesn't mind redoing the whole episode. He loves, he loves to edit. S- s- sorry about editing. He lo- he li- he lives to edit. I was g- I was going somewhere with that. Um, I-
Oh, I know. An- another thing that was instituted, uh, at Brentwood, I- I'm assuming you brought it, was the spiritual retreat day.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. One day a month, you go off, sit under a tree, and remember why [00:11:00] you do this.
Matt Pearson: Exactly. It's not an off day.
Mike Glenn: Nope.
Matt Pearson: It's not catch up on work day.
Mike Glenn: Nope.
Matt Pearson: It's not a run errands. It's not m- mow the gr- unless it helps your soul.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: You know, it's, it's get with God day.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And still, I've, I've still been doing it. Good. We've implemented it at Clearview. Good. They love it. Um, but still to this day, it can be very hard But it's so healthy because if I say for an entire day I'm not gonna check email, I'm not gonna respond to, to texts, and I tell the people that if there's- Mm-hmm
you know. I have to be reminded that Clearview will be just fine without me.
Mike Glenn: Exactly.
Matt Pearson: And that's humbling, but I believe it's very, very healthy.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I never would've thought that way. I mean, it's almost like God needs to inst- institute a Sabbath or something.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, you know, and if, if you need to be reminded of that, look, look across town there at Brentwood Baptist Church.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I stepped away. They're doing better than ever. [00:12:00] They, they, they've absolutely hurt my feelings in, in how well they're doing.
Matt Pearson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's, that-
Mike Glenn: Um-
Matt Pearson: And it's, and it's, it's good for me to hear.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Because they're gonna be just fine without
Mike Glenn: me. Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And God is God, I'm not. And having that
I say that to say that mentality will free the pastor.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, and I'm glad it's, I'm glad it's monthly because I forget it just like that.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: Um, I think churches look at pastors the way the secular world looks at leaders-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: and assume it's the same thing.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. It's not.
Matt Pearson: It, it's not.
Mike Glenn: Mm-mm.
Matt Pearson: It's a different animal.
It's a different, it's a different thing. Yes, it is r- there's a business part to it. You have to have that. But at the end of the day, we're in charge of souls.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And that's heavy.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Heavy. And if you start mixing all of it together and you don't ever stop- it's not good. Yeah. And the, and the church, as you say, the pastor leaves [00:13:00] decapitated.
They don't know- Yeah, right ... what they're doing. Nobody knows.
Mike Glenn: Well, and, and as I often remind you, the church is a wicked mistress.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And we will reward you into self-destruction. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Very true. We'll give you a raise, we'll give you plaques, and when Katie leaves you, we'll fire you the same day.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, very true.
Mike Glenn: It's true. True.
Matt Pearson: Reward-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Matt Pearson: doing the, the good stuff.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But not the best stuff.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You asked me earlier what's keeping up, me up at night. It's, it's w- figuring out what that looks like on my calendar. Yeah. What's the good versus the best.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: But, um, yeah. Um.
Mike Glenn: Well, and, and what, and what I have discovered is we rob our members of their blessing.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Mike Glenn: See, for you to identify this coach and say to him, "You know you're doing the work of God. Mm.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: You're not just coaching for a salary- Mm-hmm ... and you're not just playing a game. You're doing the work of God in this-"
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Mm. ... changes what this man does when he shows up. Mm. It [00:14:00] changes it.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And for you to re, uh, uh, uh, to pour your life into him so that he now has a different level of energy and training- Mm
as a leader.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And what happens now when he shows up as, at that next level of competence leader.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, the offensive coordinator, the Bible study he has with his kids. Mm-hmm. What happens, uh, when he realizes not only is he there, but he's there, he's there with the support of his pastor, and by that, the, the support of his church.
Mm-hmm. For his church to say, "No, we don't want you to be chair of the grounds committee or counting the offering." Mm-hmm. "We want you doing that." Right
Matt Pearson: there. Mm-hmm. "
Mike Glenn: And, and we're gonna ordain you," as it were-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ... "
Mike Glenn: to go do this and let us know how we as a church can help you." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Then when that man comes back to church, he's ready to worship.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Yes. He wants to celebrate what God's done- Mm-hmm ... in the Bible study, in the you- uh, in the life of this young man. Most of our people are bored out of their minds.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. [00:15:00]
Mike Glenn: They have no reason to be there. They haven't seen God do anything and don't know why- Mm ... th- they're there. Mm. So when you can begin to call out, "You were born for this.
You were created for this. Go do this."
Matt Pearson: Mm. "
Mike Glenn: And no, we don't need you at the church 24 hours a day seven days a week." Yeah.
Matt Pearson: We want you right there
Mike Glenn: where you're- We want you out there doing what you're doing.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Now, thank God, we do have people who will hang at the church 24/7. Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and, uh, you know, we've all known those guys who, who took care of the finances at Brentwood and who were absolutely brilliant in doing it.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Well, because they did what they did, they released everybody else to go do their ministry.
Matt Pearson: Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Uh, which is, man, when, when a church, when- Most people show up to worship, fold their arms like a Russian Olympic judge and, and look at you and the worship team and go, "Do something."
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? Yeah.
"Bring worship to me." Well, nobody can do that.
Matt Pearson: Can't do that, yeah.
Mike Glenn: I want people showing up and going, [00:16:00] "Man, I have to celebrate what I saw God do." Mm. "Now give me a way to sing about that."
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Now, now you're getting there. Now we've got
Matt Pearson: church, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now you're getting there. And I need something from you, Pastor Matt, that I can pour into my life- Mm
and pour into my work Tuesday morning. Now that, now that, that's where it gets fun.
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. We always assume as a pastor that we're the only one God is talking to in that congregation. That's true. That's true. Right? Yeah. A- and when you have these coffee and pie conversations, and you get past the niceties to, to, to the real heart of these people-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: they have been praying some bold prayers-
Matt Pearson: That's true. Mm-hmm ... and
Mike Glenn: carrying some big burdens for this congregation.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and, and, and, and you're exactly right, especially the ones that have stayed.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Again, I don't wanna get into the, um, just ugly years of Clearview, but to stay when there didn't seem to be much hope-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Matt Pearson: you know that there were some saints crying out to [00:17:00] God for, for help.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, and love this church much more than I, than I do.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, the, the old story is God would've saved Sodom for, for, for one righteous person.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Mike Glenn: So who were those handful of righteous people-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: hanging in there-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: holding God's attention?
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And for their sake-
Matt Pearson: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: he, he remains faithful to- Mm ... uh, to Clearview.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So you have this, you have this growing, uh, recognition that you are created as a, as a pastor pastor. Okay, now there, there's lots of ways to do this. Mm-hmm. And everybody thinks there's one way fits all, it's not.
Mm-hmm. You can pastor your people so well that your preaching gets better.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? Mm-hmm. Or you can preach so well that they will allow you to pastor. E- either way works. Mm-hmm. And I've, I've known successful people in, in, in, in, in both avenues. Now you're coming ... Because you have a PhD in preaching, so preaching is very important to you.
Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] And, and you and I love talking about the techniques of preaching and that kind of thing. But now you're coming at it, I want to be the pastor who, because I know you, I can-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: I can apply God's word to you better.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: All right, that's a switch for you, right?
Matt Pearson: It is. It is. Um, I think one of the reasons, um
Well, I don't know if I need to say that, but I don't know how true that is. But I was gonna say is one of the reasons I was able to stay in Arkansas at these churches was because I loved preaching and the Word. Mm-hmm. And that was seen as, well, if he can do that like that on Sunday, then he must be a good leader.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: Um, and that's frightening.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, and you can, but at the neglect of a whole lot of good shepherding. Um, and so yeah, this approach has been, okay, I love to preach. I believe God's gifted me to preach. I've been preaching for 25 years, and I'm gonna continue to do that, but [00:19:00] why don't I take the approach of, "I heard you say this."
Or whether I say that out loud or not- Mm-hmm ... they're going to feel seen.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, and it makes all the difference in the world. I mean, I've heard you say that you've, you've heard some guys that couldn't preach their way out of a paper bag- Exactly right ... but the people loved it-
Mike Glenn: Exactly
Matt Pearson: right ... because they knew that he loved them.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And, uh, I don't, I don't, I don't wanna be that kind of preacher But it's, it's amazing what you can get away with- Yeah ... if they, if they- If they know
Mike Glenn: they're loved ...
Matt Pearson: if they know that you love them. Yep.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Now you've had a chance to do it.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? You, you've, you, you've had the, the, uh, the, the education, the learning, the revelation of, "Listen, Matt, here's how I gifted you."
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. "
Mike Glenn: Now I wanna give you a chance to live out your giftedness." Mm-hmm. What are you finding out?
Matt Pearson: About,
Mike Glenn: about you, the way you're doing your ministry, the way you did it at West Franklin's very different than the [00:20:00] way you're doing it at Clearview.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So what prompted that change of, of style or anything? I, I'll tell you one thing I've noticed. Okay. You're much happier.
Matt Pearson: Hmm. Thanks.
Mike Glenn: You're much happier.
Matt Pearson: Well, yeah,
Mike Glenn: I- And, and I, and I think that comes from, from hitting that groove-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: where you know you're supposed to be.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I... Well, thanks for saying that. I, I have had some people from, you know, 'cause Clearview's less than 10 minutes away- Yeah ... from West Franklin, so I've had some people come to visit, um, Clearview a time or two, and several of them have said, "You seem released."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I didn't feel trapped- Right ... at West Franklin or anything like that, but it's just like there's this, there's this an- an- other level that you're able to, to, to get at. I- what am I learning about that is, huh-
I'm, I'm still, I still put tons of energy into the sermon
Mike Glenn: [00:21:00] Mm-hmm
Matt Pearson: But it's taking less time And I'm, I'm I feel like I'm spending more time listening to the people, and it's ... Maybe, maybe that, maybe that's a connection there.
Mike Glenn: Oh, you think?
Matt Pearson: By the time... Well, by the... Well, if you start... Man, sorry, I just kind of had that revelation.
Duh. Um, if I start, if I know where I'm going- Yeah ... a week in advance, and I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about the passage Sunday night before I go to sleep-
Mike Glenn: Exactly right ...
Matt Pearson: and I'm always reading the text-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: then whether I'm listening to a podcast on the way to work or whether I'm having a conversation with a church member, that, that's always there.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I can think, "Oh, this is gonna speak to them." Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna work. And by the time I get in the study, I mean, I've been studying it here. Mm-hmm. By the time I get to, to, to write out a manuscript or whatever, it just flows.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the biblical understanding. You meditate on this.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: [00:22:00] Hold this in your head. Mm.
Matt Pearson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's just... And you know, God, God knows what we're dealing with in the text. God knows who- Mm-hmm ... He's got in contact with us during the week, and the connections that happen are just beautiful. Mm-hmm. Really. You know? And when, when people walk out, they're like, "Did you read my mail this week?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: You're like, "Well, yeah. I was at your house." You told me
Mike Glenn: this stuff. And you said this, yeah. That's right. Yeah, that was your story. Yeah,
Matt Pearson: yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: So. Yeah, with that. Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, um- What is, what would, what would this Matt tell the younger Matt? What would this Matt tell the Matt at Wynn, at Wynn or El Dorado?
Matt Pearson: Oh, there's a lot. Um, we've already touched on it, but A, number one is Find out who these people are.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: This is not the last church you pastored.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: I mean, that's something else about Clearview. Clearview's 10 minutes away from West Franklin, but it's a completely-
Mike Glenn: [00:23:00] Different world ...
Matt Pearson: different-
Mike Glenn: Different
Matt Pearson: world
world. Completely. And so if you cross town, if you cross state, if you cross- Mm-hmm ... you know, yes. Um, l- l- call out what God put in this church to be.
Mike Glenn: Mm. Which is not West Franklin, not Wynne- Right ... not El Dorado.
Matt Pearson: Right, right.
Mike Glenn: They got a different calling.
Matt Pearson: Right. There's a reason this church is here. There's a reason- Mm-hmm
this church exists. Figure out. I've heard you say, "Look at the baby pictures."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Go back. Why did they start? What, what got them up in the morning?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: I would, I would beg the, uh, young Matt to s- don't try to force your agenda.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Let their agenda, or the, the God-given agenda for this church-
Mike Glenn: Surface
Matt Pearson: emerge.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Matt Pearson: Um, that would be the biggie.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, don't, don't try to, um... Be patient with people, um, which I guess comes when you're not trying to force your agenda [00:24:00] more, more so.
Mike Glenn: Well, it also comes when you trust that there is a God-given agenda in this church somewhere.
Matt Pearson: Right. Right, or it wouldn't be there.
Mike Glenn: Or, or w- the church would not be there, and sometimes it takes a little time for it to take root-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: and for those early seedlings to pop up.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, but you gotta work the ground for that to happen.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: And you'd learn that if you run a tractor. I know. If I was on a tractor. You
Matt Pearson: know what else I never did when I was in Wynne?
I never went duck hunting.
Mike Glenn: Wow.
Matt Pearson: Swing and a miss. Duck hunting capital of the world in, uh, eastern Arkansas, and I never... Of course, they never invited me, but they probably knew what I'd do with the gun. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: no.
Matt Pearson: But yeah, several, several pastoral misses there.
Mike Glenn: But you're talking about pastor- pastoral missions.
One of, one of the, the paradigm shifts that has to happen that is, that, that is not happening is we have to understand that we are now missionaries to our own culture.
Matt Pearson: Mm. Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? And if a missionary [00:25:00] had moved to Wynne, Arkansas, the missionary would've gone duck hunting.
Matt Pearson: Mm. Yep.
Mike Glenn: The missionary would've studied duck hunting-
Matt Pearson: Yep.
Yep,
Mike Glenn: and gotten in the tractor ... to, to, yeah, to, to, uh, to engage a conversation and to start a friendship and that, and that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. All right. But, but that's one of the things that, that all the pastors have to do. You have to understand now we're not in a Christian culture.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And you have to understand your people and where they are and, and w- and create that connection with them.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, that, that again proves your leadership and your preaching and all of that. Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Now, the, the other thing that, that is, that is fun for you right now is that you are on, on this precipice- Of, of how we used to do church and how we're having to learn to do church in this post-Christian era.
Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? So it used to be that, especially as a Southern Baptist pastor, you sh- you showed up and lived out of the Southern Baptist calendar- ... and the Southern Baptist [00:26:00] emphasis, whether it was a missions offering or- Mm-hmm ... or, or, or whatever. Now, we're at the other place where it, we have gone over where that is no longer, uh, relevant to our people.
It no longer connects to anybody. Mm. Um, you know, you now have young adults asking, "Who is Lottie Moon, and why are we giving her money?"
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Um, and which is heresy in the- ... Southern Baptist Church, right? That you would not know who Lottie Moon was. Yeah. Uh, who was a missionary in China. Mm-hmm. And because of her sacrifice, we named, we named the, the International Mission Fund after her.
Um, but now you're having to come back and say, "Okay-" Uh, how is Clearview going to accomplish Clearview's mission? Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Which means you have to identify and train and release to ministry those people, uh, in your [00:27:00] congregation. Mm. Uh, every Paul makes a Timothy now.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? Leaders make more leaders.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Titus and Timothy you would think would be evangelistic books. They're not. They're books on how you identify and train leaders.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: So how is Matt coming to Clearview with this understanding that I have to find certain number of leaders now who can then live out the mission and work with you to extend that mission?
Matt Pearson: Hmm. Wow. It's a really good question. I ... And I'm, I'm still learning. Mm-hmm. I've been here nine months, um, at Clearview so I'm trying to identify who the leaders are. You know, there's some leaders that have the label because they're chairman- Right ... of this, chairman of that, and some of them are true leaders.
Then there's other leaders that don't know they're leaders-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: and, and trying to call that out. So I'm, I'm still, I'm still figuring out who these, who these leaders are. Um, and, and, and well, Clearview's, as we said, every church is unique, but for [00:28:00] 40 something years, Clearview's 41 years old, um, m- many Southern Baptist leaders, executive team people-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: would, were members that-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Matt Pearson: Richard Land is still- Right ... a member at Clearview. Um, Lifeway-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: had tons of, tons of Lifeway employees. Leaders- Mm-hmm ... of Lifeway were, were members of Clearview. And what that, what that meant, meant was that if these people at Lifeway and these Southern Baptist convention leaders, they're all over the country.
They're hearing what all these other Baptist churches are doing. Right. They come back to Clearview and say, "Hey, I heard this. They're doing this." Mm-hmm. "I heard they're, they're..." Which is all fine, but it seems like they tried everything that they heard.
Mike Glenn: Well, I tell people all the time that the, the most important job of the pastors, keep experts out of your congregation.
Matt Pearson: Well, that's a, that's the truth. There's a lot of experts.
Mike Glenn: Everybody shows up with their little box, man.
Matt Pearson: [00:29:00] That's right. Um, and so I've, I've ... As, as I begin to learn the people, I'm trying to learn the history and I'm saying, "Okay, I'm looking at 40 years of artifacts of things they've tried that just hadn't worked."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And so now I'm saying, "Okay, um, this may have worked in '92-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Matt Pearson: But we're a whole new world A
Mike Glenn: whole new w- yeah ...
Matt Pearson: whole new world. Those people that were here aren't here anymore, and now we've got, we've got new, um... I'm, I'm trying to get to your question, Mike, but for me it is, okay, I've gotta figure out who these Lottie Moons are.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Who these leaders are.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And then I've gotta say, "Okay, here's, here's, here's what we're gonna be. We're not gonna be about everything."
Mike Glenn: Nope. "
Matt Pearson: We're gonna be about this, this, and this, and I need you to be at the tip of the spear. What do you need from me?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: I'll give you an example. Um, [00:30:00] well, I'll, I won't say his name, but he is a, he's the head coach of a high school baseball team in town.
And I went to watch one of his games And, um, I saw this guy and his players have such a rich relationship that I was just sitting there observing and watching him, and watch the way the boys were watching him- Mm-hmm ... and how he was interact- I was like, that's youth ministry-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: on a baseball field.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And he is ... I mean, he is just ... The ministry was happening during the game.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And then about a week later, he called to tell, ask me for advice because someone that he had coached 10 years ago, had take, had ... His sister had taken her life. Wow.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Matt Pearson: And he was the first person they called. The baseball coach.
Mike Glenn: Wow. Their [00:31:00] pastor.
Matt Pearson: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Their pastor, right.
Matt Pearson: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And so I'm thinking, "I've got to get him everything he needs- Mm-hmm ... in order to be a gospel influence."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. '
Matt Pearson: Cause he's already leading.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: Pastoring. Mm-hmm. How can I help him? So it's identifying those people.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Who are those people that are already leading?
Like school teachers-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: for instance, that are, that are in the classroom. Um, and so I'm learning, trying to
Mike Glenn: figure that out. Yeah, but this, see, this is, this is the, the switch that we keep talking about. Going from the guy who is the leader to the guy who empowers leaders- Mm,
Matt Pearson: mm ...
Mike Glenn: and encourages leaders- Mm-hmm
and pastors leaders who then go out and reach an entire baseball team.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Not only the baseball team for that year- Mm-hmm ... but the, everybody- Mm-hmm ... who's played ball for him-
Matt Pearson: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: is now under his ministry- Yeah ... and, and part of his church to- Mm-hmm ... you know, to use that term.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. I, and I still, I still wrestle with this, but there's another guy, he's a offensive coordinator at [00:32:00] Ravenwood High School.
Great guy. Hope Auburn calls him.
And he, uh, there was this, there's this high school senior that just graduated, was going to scho- going to play quarterback and, or wide receiver at a school in Indiana. Not the Hoosiers- Mm-hmm ... but another, another school. And he had led him to Christ, this offensive coordinator led him to Christ, and wanted me to talk to him about being baptized.
Come to find out he has Bible study on, on campus with these ... So I'm thinking, one, we don't need to be asking him to come to church every night of the week, to be honest with you. But we do need to be saying, "How can we- Exactly right ... release him?"
Mike Glenn: Exactly right.
Matt Pearson: Let's not get him more busy here.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Let's let him f- stay focused where he is for the sake of the gospel.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And so I, um- Anyway, I hope, I hope that kinda answers, um, your question. I'm just, I'm, I'm looking for these people, but it's gonna be a shift here.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Matt Pearson: Because all my life [00:33:00] it's been, let's get everybody here at the church.
Mike Glenn: That's exactly right. And success has been how many people are on Sunday morning- Mm-hmm
Sunday night, Wednesday night. Yeah. Now success is how many people are out Monday, Tuesday- Mm ... Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. A different, whole different question.
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, uh, about that- It's gonna hurt
Matt Pearson: my numbers, and I'll turn into the convention.
Mike Glenn: Well, yeah. And, you know, how you gonna be elected president of the convention- I know, I know
if you don't have, if you don't have-
Matt Pearson: You couldn't pay me enough
Mike Glenn: to be chairman. If 10, if 10... Well-
Matt Pearson: Yeah, you
Mike Glenn: could pay me enough. What, what does, what does it do, what does it do, uh, and th- you know, and gosh, this is you and me talk. What does it do to your ego-
Matt Pearson: Mm. Mm ...
Mike Glenn: okay, when your church is active and doing kingdom work and mission work that you see happening every day of the week-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: but may not be reflected in your Sunday attendance numbers- Mm-hmm ... or your Wednesday bible study numbers? Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, it, it hurts your ego. Uh,
Mike Glenn: it does. Yeah. It does [00:34:00] until we learn that there's a new paradigm shift. Scorecard.
Matt Pearson: Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Until you can start seeing your success. Mm. Um, a- and, and I'm fortunate in that I have lived long enough, and, uh, and, and you're, you're a father so you know, you know this.
You enjoy the success of your children-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: more than you do your own.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: You know?
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And so I've, I've had the chance to be a part of your life, part of Jay's life, and Aaron and all this. Mm-hmm. And, and I enjoy your success-
Matt Pearson: Mm. Mm ...
Mike Glenn: you know, more, more than I, than I ever did my own. But, but, but seeing you get it and seeing you live that out in, uh, in, in the ministry of Clearview-
Matt Pearson: Mm
Mike Glenn: uh, is, uh, is important.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: So what keeps you up at night?
Matt Pearson: Is Auburn football gonna be good? No, just kidding. Just kidding. Um, what keeps me up at night? Ha. [00:35:00] Right now? Okay, I've been here nine, 10 months
What, where, where does my time need to be best um, used. I mean, I've, I've s- I'm still learning church members, but I've spent a lot of time, and I'm still going to.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: But okay, now, now I'm at this, this ap- approaching a year at Clearview. Where does, where does the bulk of my time ... I heard somebody say this week, "Your calendar reflects your goals."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Yeah. Where, where do I need to put my attention during this next season? So I, I'm, I'm thinking a lot about that. Mm-hmm. And I don't have a, I don't have a solid answer, and so when I wake up in the middle of the night, I think that.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Well, you know, I, I'm assuming Ka- Katie's at the top of that list, your wife.
Matt Pearson: Well, yes.
Mike Glenn: Okay. No, uh, now listen. You, you and I know- If she
Matt Pearson: wasn't, she'd tell
Mike Glenn: me ... [00:36:00] well, you and I know a lot of guys that would expect the pa- the, the wife to understand this is a really busy time of my ministry. Mm-hmm. I've got to get all this stuff done. Mm-hmm. Mm. I'll get back to you when I can. Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay?
Matt Pearson: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I'm assuming each of your children ... Now, now you are, you are the father of college students. That's different.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: But you still need, they still need you in there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And in some ways they need you more and differently- Mm-hmm ... than they have-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: uh, than, than when they were smaller.
Matt Pearson: You know, now I've got two at Belmont. Luke will be a senior. Birdie will be a freshman. Wow. When Luke comes home- I
Mike Glenn: feel so old.
Matt Pearson: You are.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: When Luke comes home now, since he lives 30 minutes away, he brings 10 or 12 friends with him-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Matt Pearson: to eat.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: And so, yeah, it's ... A lot of my time is spent cooking and going to the grocery store.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yes, to your point, Katie, yes, of course. I, I, I should not have assumed that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: But she's the [00:37:00] priority. My kids. It's not as hands-on as it was. Mm-hmm. But you're right. When they call, you have to be available- That's right ... right then. And so it's a different kind of quality, quality time.
And so those are definitely the priorities. I'm just thinking, okay, now, now that Clearview's in this whatever season we're in, and I've been here enough to, they know that I'm, I'm here.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: What does that, what does that look like for us to have not just present health but long-term-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Matt Pearson: health? And so that, that's probably what's keeping me up at night, and how I'm gonna pay for three kids.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, let's, let's, let's be reminded of the fundamentals. One, your most important sermon is your marriage.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, and a lot of people come to Clearview, and they will watch how you and Katie react before they ever decide- Mm-hmm ... whether or not they'll listen to you.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Uh, assuming that if, if that's the way you treat somebody you love, then that's the way you'll treat me-
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: if, if I come to you and be your friend.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. I need [00:38:00] her to watch this podcast.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Did you hear what Mike said, babe?
Mike Glenn: That's it. I'm telling. I'm telling.
Matt Pearson: Yeah, you're right. You're right.
Mike Glenn: You know, I've ha- I've had people, you know, my mom was, uh, sick with Alzheimer's, so she came and lived with us for four years.
And I had a guy tell me one time, he said, "You know when we decided to join your church?" Hmm. I said, "No." He said, "You remember when you used to walk down and get your mom, and y'all- Mm-hmm ... you would walk out with your mom?" Mm-hmm. I said, "Well, yeah." And he said, "We watched you do that two or three weeks, and one time when you walked down, my wife looked at me and goes, 'That's my pastor.'"
Matt Pearson: Wow.
Mike Glenn: Wow. So what about my sermons? I- Yeah ... they're all right. Yeah. But when she saw you- Yeah ... take care of your mom. Yeah. That was...
Matt Pearson: Wow.
Mike Glenn: So that, that was it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, what gets you up early in the morning?
Matt Pearson: I, [00:39:00] I, I love knowing that I have an opportunity to help a congregation understand who God is-
Mike Glenn: Mm ...
Matt Pearson: from the scriptures, whether that's Sunday morning- Mm-hmm ... or in a lunch. Um, that's just, just why I do what I do.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: Um, I, I, I love that I get to do that. Um, not everybody sees... You know, when, when somebody says, "I want a hour of your time during the week," not everybody sees it as this is we're gonna figure...
Even though I'm a pastor, we're gonna figure out what God's up to here.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: That's my job still. Um, um, and I... That, that, that's always, um, and still what, what gets me up in the morning.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. It's the, it's the idea of stewardship.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, you are responsible to God for the wellbeing- Mm ... of your people.
Matt Pearson: Mm.
Which is wonderful and haunting all at the same time.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Yeah, scares the bejeebies out [00:40:00] of you at times. Yeah. Yeah. With that.
Matt Pearson: People have asked me, "What, what do you like, um, do, do you, do you like being at, being the..." Who knows how they say it? "The chief at Clearview?" Mm-hmm. You know, because I was a campus pastor at West Franklin.
And I said, "Well, it's, it's great, but it's scary." Because if somebody didn't like something, I was at West Franklin, I'd just ask Brentwood.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I just, yeah, I can't, can't do anything with them. Yeah.
Matt Pearson: But when they don't like something at Clearview, the buck stops with me. One time I said, "Well, that's Brentwood."
And they're like, "Well, you're not there anymore." Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Somebody asked me one time, I said, "It's like surfing a tsunami, baby. It's a great ride. You fall off, you're not getting back up." That's right.
Matt Pearson: That's right. Before I came to West Franklin, my older sister... I have a older sister and a younger sister.
My older sister said, um, "What's it gonna be?" She... I kind of told her the makeup of- Mm-hmm ... how it was gonna be. She said, "What's it gonna be now that you have a boss?" Meaning coming to West Franklin.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Matt Pearson: And I said, um, "Laura, I've, I've always had bosses. They've just been called deacons."
Mike Glenn: That's what... Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. [00:41:00] Or
Matt Pearson: chairman
Mike Glenn: and- That's what I love about, you know, the Internal Revenue Service thinks pastors are s- are self-employed, that we have no, no boss.
Matt Pearson: That is funny.
Mike Glenn: It's... I like that.
Matt Pearson: Mm. And then above them is God.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And you gotta answer
Matt Pearson: to that.
Mike Glenn: All right, man, I want you to come back because I wanna, I wanna ca- uh, keep, keep in touch with this experiment- Yeah.
Yeah ... and, and how, what you're learning, what you continue to learn- Mm-hmm ... and how you begin to identify and release these leaders to do that. Mm-hmm. He is Matt Pearson, and he is at Clearview Baptist Church here in the Nashville area. Matt, thanks for being with us. Thank
Matt Pearson: you. Thanks for having me. Enjoyed it.
