Ian Cron Explains How the 12 Steps Aren't Only for Alcoholics
In this episode, Mike Glenn sits down with author and pastor Ian Cron - not to talk personality, but to talk recovery and discipleship. Ian shares his journey from early sobriety to a later prescription-drug relapse, and why the 12 Steps are “the gospel in compression.” They dig into shadow work, the gift of powerlessness, and the daily practices gratitude, inventory, amends, surrender, that keep us grounded in grace. You’ll hear why some of the deepest miracles happen in the church basement, and how pastors and leaders can pursue honest, humble formation that lasts.
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Mike Glenn: Well, you know, that's, that's the, that, that's the problem with all of Jesus' saying. Yeah. You wanna- Yeah ... you wanna cross-stitch them and put them on your refrigerator door- Yeah ... till you actually have to do them. Yeah, exactly.
You, you were, uh, were/are alcoholic. Mm-hmm. Sober for 25- 20-plus years, yep ... 20-plus years, and slipped. Yep. As happens sometimes. As happens. Yeah. Uh, but it usually, it usually doesn't happen after 20 [00:01:00] years. It usually happens in- Mm ... six, seven weeks or something. But, but I guess it happens any time. It
Ian Cron: can happen any time.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: Um, I first got sober in 1987. I was a young man.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: Um, and, uh, got out in the, really in the nick of time. Now, this is 1987. There were no treatment centers. There were no- Mm-hmm ... that, that, that industry has arisen only in the last- Right ... you know, 20 years, uh, to what it is now. Uh, so the only place to go in those days was to go to Alcoholics Anonymous, right?
I went for about, I'd say, four or five years- Mm-hmm ... pretty regularly. And, um, but that, the, the desire to drink was really expelled. You know? Like, that, that is part of the promise, right? Of- Right ... A, that, that working these steps and working this program will expel the need or the desire- Mm-hmm ... for drinking.
You'll, you will adopt a stance of [00:02:00] neutrality- Right ... towards it. Right. Right? And miraculously, that's true. Mm-hmm. Now, w- where things went sideways, I think, was I just, for all those years, I wasn't involved in a program of recovery. Mm. Right? I, I mean, I- Mm ... basically stopped after five years. Yeah. Now, I would dart in and out periodically.
Right. You know? Um, every two, three years- Mm-hmm ... I'd pop in for three, four weeks, go, "Oh, I forgot how great this is," and you know, and then- And, but
Mike Glenn: you didn't stay with the program. But I didn't
Ian Cron: stay with the program. Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, then I, I go to see a, uh, a doctor. I end up with a prescription. So I didn't relapse on alcohol.
It was on prescription medication. Ah. So it was Adderall and Xanax. Mm-hmm. Adderall, which is a stimulant- Right ... usually for ADHD, plus Xanax, which is an anti-anxiety agent, both of which are powerfully addictive. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and- Ended up in a addictive relationship with them. So, you know, it's, it's, you know, the, there's a, there's a saying in AA, you know, they'll say, "You know, [00:03:00] while you're in here doing your work, your addiction is in the parking lot doing push-ups."
Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Exactly right. Yeah. And,
Ian Cron: and so it, it wasn't, it was a very kind of a gradual overtaking.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: Um, uh, and until it became unsustainable and unhealthy and required me to take measures. Mm-hmm. Right? Na- namely to go to treatment and to reengage with a 12-step program to, uh, facilitate my own healing and health.
Mike Glenn: Right. And out of that came a very good book- Thank you ... called The Fix. You write about how the 12 steps not only help addicts, but as, as we've talked about before we're, we're all addicts somewhere if you, if you take the, the, the fallen nature of humanity seriously. We're all, we're all on that spectrum somewhere.
But you started writing about how these 12 steps really are keys to a better life. [00:04:00] Yes. And are useful and, uh, and helpful for everybody.
Ian Cron: And you know, Bill Wilson, the guy who wrote them- Mm-hmm ... the founder of- Mm-hmm ... Alcoholics Anonymous said the same thing. Um, George Schumacher, who we were- Right, right
talking about earlier said the same thing. Mm-hmm. Right? The Episcopal priest at St. George's in- Mm-hmm ... New York City. Um, Dr. Bob, who was a committed Christian- Right ... was, said the same thing. These are a way of life for everybody. Right. They're particularly useful for alcoholics. We, we've seen that- Mm-hmm
that it works miracles in the li- Mm-hmm. But really it's, it's, it's a, it's the gospel in compression.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Ian Cron: In miniature. Yeah. It's like here's what the gospel looks like with wheels on it.
Mike Glenn: Uh, talking the other day to a, to a mutual friend of ours who ha- who is, who is a, a lifelong, uh, AA, uh, uh, follower, uh, talks about, uh, he's 30-plus years sober now, gets up every day and practices his gratitude.
Ian Cron: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And every night w- works what he wants to [00:05:00] do better the next day. That's right. And this is, this is ... And, and what struck me about that is, is by all appearances he's very successful, very, very controlled. He's, he's, he's got his life together, and he's still doing what, what we know from the 12 steps to be one of the more basic steps, and he still does it every day.
And, and, and I'm talking to him as he's explaining this and, and he just flippantly said it, and I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Go back to this. Talk to me about this." And it, it, it reminded me of, of, of what I try to accomplish in my own- Bible studies, prayer time, but I'm not nearly as committed or focused or, or intense about it as he is.
I don't come to it thinking, "My life depends on me doing this."
Ian Cron: [00:06:00] Yeah, yeah. You know, that's- It does.
Mike Glenn: Y- it does. It does. Uh-huh. And, and, and I, I would, I would check that answer correctly. Yeah,
Ian Cron: yeah. This is, you know, in AA, we talk about the gift of desperation.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Ian Cron: And it's interesting, right? G-O-D. Right. Gift of desperation.
Yeah. So people are always like, you know, coming up with these- ... cute kind of, like, acronyms. Um, you know, there's a real gift in hitting a bottom.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: Of coming to the end of yourself. Mm-hmm. You think about Eugene Peterson's translation of The Message where he talks about, "Blessed are those who come to the end of their own ropes."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: Right? Um, I count it a privilege to have come to the end of my own rope.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Ian Cron: I have no illusions-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ... about
Ian Cron: my, about who I am.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: Both in my brokenness and in my beauty. Mm-hmm. You know, I have to hold both of those in tension. Yes. Mm-hmm. And, uh, but I have no illusions. Uh, and I know that I have to work a program of spiritual maintenance- Mm-hmm
that my [00:07:00] sobriety depends upon- Right ... uh, that I'm in a fit spiritual condition. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, otherwise, I may go looking for, uh, heaven on earth in other places, right? Mm-hmm. Whether it's alcohol or drugs, but it could be food. It could be- Yeah ... you know. Listen, how many th- how many calls have you gotten about guys from addictions to porn or to gambling- Right, right
or sports betting or- Mm-hmm ... work. Mm-hmm. Workaholism. Good night. Uh, you know, on and on and on. We will go looking- Yeah ... to drink from wells, broken cisterns. Bro-
Mike Glenn: broken cisterns. Right? Bowing down fr- in front of idols that can't give you
Ian Cron: life. Yeah, exactly. And that is, that is the human condition. Mm-hmm.
That is our nature. Uh, and one of the things I love, you know, one of the things I love about the church is that it has done such a beautiful job of housing AA and OA and- Right ... NA- Mm-hmm ... and all these different meetings. Mm-hmm. Right? Often most of them happen, or many, many, many of them happen in churches, right?[00:08:00]
Um, and I had a pastor I met at one who had pastored a very large church and had been arrested DUI, right? Drunk, driving under, uh, i- intoxication. And, um, rather than the church supporting him and getting him help- Mm-hmm ... they just fired him. You know, like, basically pitched him out. Mm-hmm. It, it was a very unpleasant situation.
Um, and, um, he said to me one day in a church basement, he said, "Man, I wish the people upstairs- Could know what's going on down here Because the miracles that are happening regularly- Oh, well, yeah ... in these rooms. AA does church
Mike Glenn: better than the church does.
Ian Cron: Well, and, and he said, "But I couldn't have gotten here unless I had really passed through the gauntlet of my own brokenness."
Mm-hmm. And so again, it's this, you know, you know the gospel is like, if you're [00:09:00] not comfortable with paradox, don't play with Christianity. Uh, and, and it's, the gospel is loaded with this- Mm, mm-hmm ... upside down logic and calculus where it's like- Life,
Mike Glenn: life through death ...
Ian Cron: y- life through death. Yeah ... virgin births.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. One and three, three and one. If you're, you know. It's, it's, it, you know, it, it, it's enough to make your mind screw up, you know- Yeah ... um, on itself. But, but I'm reminded that when you're in touch with your own need daily, then the spiritual maintenance your friend referenced- Mm-hmm ... is absolutely essential, and we don't do it out of fear or anxiety- No, no, no
or like, "I gotta do this 'cause it's magic," or something. Yeah, yeah. I do it because I have to stay close to God. Well,
Mike Glenn: and it's life giving. And it's life giving. It i- it's, it i- it is, it is- Yeah ... it is so, so life giving. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, a lot of us are afraid of, um, of our shadow side. [00:10:00]
Ian Cron: Yes.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, especially if you're a religious professional, you don't want to let anybody know that you have that shadow side.
Ian Cron: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Which sets us up- Mm-hmm ... to be devoured by- Yes ... that, that shadow side. Yes. Uh, what, what would you say to, to a friend, uh, who, um, knows there's something but is scared to look at it?
Ian Cron: Yeah. I think that's everybody.
Uh, well, and, and if you don't know that- Oh ... then you're actually in more danger. All right. Well, you know- You know? ... I was
Mike Glenn: asking for a friend. Yeah, you're asking
Ian Cron: for a friend. I mean, listen, I mean, you're into some rich territory here, right? Because, you know, uh, I'm an, I'm an admirer of the work of Carl Jung.
Mm-hmm. And of course, Jung developed the term shadow. Right. Um, what's interesting about Jung's understanding of the shadow is that what's [00:11:00] inside of it are parts of ourselves that we have deemed to be unworthy- Right ... of love. Right. Uh, that we have deemed unacceptable. Right. Parts of ourselves. So, um, and, um, you know, to neglect shadow work, if, to use- Mm-hmm
his term, is making a decision to, at your own peril, right? Right. Like, um, it is incumbent on us, I think, as Christians to, um- become well acquainted with our interior world, what's in there. Mm-hmm. The more we can make con- un- the more we can make the unconscious conscious- Mm-hmm ... then we know what we're working with.
Right. Right? That the tragedy is that- The ability
Mike Glenn: to name.
Ian Cron: Yes. Yes, and to be able to peer. Mm-hmm. Now, you can't do that... So the steps are actually set up to do this, right? Mm-hmm. So step [00:12:00] one, we admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable. Mm-hmm. Now take out the word alcohol and put in whichever word you want.
Yeah. Workaholism, the admiration of my congregation. Mm-hmm. I'm addicted to that, right? Money- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... success, whatever your thing is, right? Um, there's the admission of I'm, I'm a broken man- Mm-hmm ... or a broken person, right? Um, and then we move into the, the second step, right? Uh, that we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
And if you think about the word sanity, I think I like the word wholeness. Mm-hmm. Can restore us to wholeness, right? Um, and then the steps progress you through a series of exercises and attitudes and principles designed to help you look into the shadow. Right. When you get to steps four and five, man, you are looking into the shadow.
That's right. Made a searching and fearless- That's it ... moral inventory of ourselves. Fearless. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: that's always the one that got me. Number
Ian Cron: four. Five.
Mike Glenn: Made to God.
Ian Cron: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being- That's it, yeah ... the exact nature of our [00:13:00] wrongs. Yeah. And so it is- I sit
Mike Glenn: down and read it out loud
it is
Ian Cron: clear-eyed. Yeah. You must take a clear-eyed- Mm-hmm ... look at what- Mm-hmm ... is happening inside of yourself, not to shame yourself, to beat yourself up- No. No, no, no ... but for the sake of saying, you know. And again, when you go through this process, and it all sounds so intense, and, and parts of it are, um, I...
What this leads to ultimately, and this is the whole point of the 12 steps, and pastors don't know this, people don't know this, right? But this is what the point of the 12 steps, this is straight out of Bill Wilson's mouth. It is to facilitate a spiritual awakening- Mm-hmm ... of sufficient force, that it will expel your need to rely on external things- Anything, right
to solve internal problems, right? It is to have a spiritual awakening. A spiritual awakening. It's interesting. There's no mention anywhere in the 12 steps about here's how to stop drinking. Here's how to stop overeating. Mm-hmm. Here's how to stop... There's no mention of it. Mm-mm. It's all about [00:14:00] here's how to get your relationship with yourself, with God, and others- You know,
Mike Glenn: straightened out, yeah
Ian Cron: straightened out so that you- Mm-hmm ... will live a life that sees these crutches, if you will, uh, as unnecessary. You'll literally throw the crutches away.
Mike Glenn: The naming, the, the fearless inventory scares a lot of people. Uh, b- but when I remind people of along my spiritual journey, I, I have, I have learned that when you begin to pray that Jesus will help you with something- I want him to grab me and throw me on the other side of the problem, and I want to look back and say, "Wow, that was close."
Yeah, right. But, but- Yeah ... but I'm praying. He never does that with me. Uh, he always, if I pray about something, if, if, if I say, "Listen, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, my relationship with Ian is broken, and, and I, I want to find a way." I'm gonna run into you at the grocery store. We're gonna pump [00:15:00] gas next to each other Right
you know? Yeah. It's just gonna be. Yeah. This is not what I wanted. Right. He leads you right through the problem, and you face it, and you deal with it. And in the power of his resurrection grace, you c- you overcome it. He gives you victory, and the, because of that, you don't ever have to be afraid of it again.
Ian Cron: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You know, so when you do the inventory and somebody says, "Hey, aren't you the guy who..." Yeah, that was me. Yep. Yep.
Ian Cron: Yep. I mean, there is such, you know, the, the, the program of the 12 steps, and again, I just urge everybody to read them and- Mm-hmm ... and to see them really as a... Really, they're a m- they're a model for discipleship.
Sure. Right? Sure. This is how, this is what the gospel looks like in the flesh, right? Mm-hmm. It's it. Uh, and how do we live in restored relationship with God, ourselves, and others day to day, moment to moment, right? Mm-hmm. And, um, [00:16:00] there's a, just a, they are deceptively simple when you read them, but when you actually work them, you realize, oh, there is such depth under every single one of them.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, that is, that's the, that- that's the problem with all of Jesus' saying.
Ian Cron: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You want to, you want to- Yeah ... cross-stitch them and put them on your refrigerator door- Yeah ... till you actually have to do them. Yeah. Exactly.
Ian Cron: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I, I love talking about the 12 steps with, you know, pastors and, and leaders of, of different types because honestly, there is stuff happening in the basement of their churches at those meetings that if they could only see it- Oh, yeah
the miracles that are, that, that happen, like, you know, regularly. Mm-hmm. I see miracles regularly. Mm-hmm. You know, I'll be there on a Tuesday, and there's a 25-year-old guy living in his car now coming to a meeting, and you, I come back six months later, and he's no longer living in his car. That's right.
And he's, he's got a, he's finally got an apartment. Come back six months later, he's now [00:17:00] got, you know- Yeah ... and, and- Yeah ... and his, he's, he's lost 30 pounds, and he's looking great, and he's y-
Mike Glenn: I mean, it's- Well, it's the old story of, uh, s- sitting with Jesus clothed and in his right mind.
Ian Cron: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It, these are people who, this is interesting, when I was thinking about the, you, just as you said that, I was thinking about the Prodigal Son story, which, you know, I don't know anybody in recovery that doesn't tear up- Oh, yeah
whether they believe in Jesus or not. Yeah. They hear that story, they go, "That's my story," right? Yeah. He came to his senses. Yeah. He came to his senses. And what you see in those rooms are people having spiritual awakening- Mm-hmm ... that leading to a, to a coming to their senses. And I just am so moved every time I attend meetings.
You know? Oh, and hear,
Mike Glenn: and hear, hear some of the stories. Oh, my
Ian Cron: gosh. I just-
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Ian Cron: I have seen things that, you know- Mm-hmm ... make my heart bust with joy.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: You know?
Mike Glenn: Now let's talk about, let's talk about y- your, your book, The Fix, because th- one of the things I love about this [00:18:00] book is it's a good way to sneak.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Instead of giving them the big book, I can say, "Hey, read, read, read Ian's book, The Fix, uh, a- and, and it'll help you." Le- just talk practically. All of us are messed up, all of us are dealing with something, all of us have something in our past that we're scared to death is gonna catch up with us one day a- a- and all of that.
So I, I, I give somebody a copy of The Fix, what are you hoping they get or, or, or start doing?
Ian Cron: Yeah. So what The Fix does, and the subtitle I love even though it's very long, right? How the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well-adjusted, that should've been in quotation marks- ... the down and out, and everybody in between.
Right? So it's the, just the 12 steps for everybody. Yeah. Right? We begin with honesty, right? That's step one, right? We just get honest. Mm-hmm. We just admit that our lives are a mess, and they're, they're kind of unmanageable. Mm-hmm. And they may look great, and you know this as a pastor, and I know [00:19:00] this working with well-known clients who are well-known- Yeah
people, you know, whatever. Everybody's a mess, man.
Mike Glenn: Oh, listen. When I was a chaplain for the Brentwood Police Department, people would say, "There's not, there's not much crime in Brentwood." I said, "
Ian Cron: Mm,
Mike Glenn: yeah, e- everything you find anywhere else is here."
Ian Cron: Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. W- they just have better lawyers.
Ian Cron: Yes. And it, or it's, it's, it's they, uh, dress it up better.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, mm-hmm. Right?
Ian Cron: But we admit that we were, that we're powerless, and I think powerlessness is a very wonderful thing to grab hold of. Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean helpless, right? Uh, powerless doesn't mean, um, you know, um, that we don't have agency- Mm-hmm ... and freedom, and you know, I, I've had... I was powerful enough to get in my car and drive over here today.
Yeah. Right? I mean, so we have power, but ultimately we are powerless over people, places, and things. Mm-hmm. Anyone who's raised kids knows this, right? Uh, and, and, uh, that we can certainly have influence, but we don't have power. Mm-hmm. You know? And [00:20:00] there's this amazing... I remember years ago I heard a young guy at a meeting say that he d- he had discovered that week that powerlessness was a superpower.
Again, this is that paradox of the gospel. Mm,
Mike Glenn: yeah.
Ian Cron: When I let go, when I give up, when I surrender- Mm-hmm ... when I, then suddenly a new power comes in- Right ... right? That enables me to do that which I was unable to do for myself. Mm-hmm But that requires giving up-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Ian Cron: on living your life on your own unaided willpower.
Mike Glenn: There is an alabaster statue of Jacob wrestling with the angel done by some German sculptor that I cannot remember his name. It's, it is, um, um, an overwhelming piece. But the image of Jacob slumped in the embrace of when Jacob finally gives up. Yes. Like, "I cannot win."
Ian Cron: Yes. Yes. You know? Yeah. And, you know, everybody can, should be [00:21:00] able to cop to the addiction of control.
Yeah. Right?
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: Of being over-controlling. Uh, sometimes that controlling nature comes out aggressively. Sometimes, very often, it comes out passive aggressively and very subtly. Right? Why do you keep looking at me when you say that? I'm just saying, man. You're just, you know, you're my avatar for all the broken people in the world.
Uh, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, it's- Yes, I do know what you mean. Yeah. People are, you know, we have... This is, you know, the problem of the garden. We're always grabbing for apples. Yeah. Right? Control. And, um, so we, when we realize, you know, I'm not in control, I'm not in charge.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: S- And if I am, I'm really sc- I'm really screwed.
Yeah. What I really need is to turn my li- my life over to, to the care of someone- Who- ... who actually knows what they're doing, right, and has the power to lead me. Mm-hmm. Um, and I love that the steps just keep rolling out this insistence that, like, you know, your best o-... The, as a, as a, [00:22:00] a guy I know at a meeting one time said to me, said to me when I complained a- about meeting, meetings, this is years and years and years ago.
He said, "Well, your best old ideas got you here." "So maybe you ought to listen."
You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Your- The,
Mike Glenn: the old Dr. Phil, "How's that working out for you?" Yeah, exactly.
Ian Cron: That, y- your best old ideas got you here, so why don't you just sit down and listen. Yeah. So- You know? Uh. The, the s- my sponsor is this wonderful guy and, uh, for those listening and who don't know what a sponsor is in, in 12-step programs, when you come in, you find an, a person who's been in the program longer than you.
Mm-hmm. And they sponsor you, walk you through the steps- Mm-hmm ... and provide advice. Not counseling, just support and- Mm-hmm ... and advice, and some of it is ripping genius.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Yes. D- d- it is ripping genius. Yes. God,
Ian Cron: God. Right? And, uh, he, but he would say to me, uh, stuff all the time that would just make me, well, first of all, [00:23:00] give up control and, like, just shut up and listen, you know?
And, uh, he's a, uh, he's a, he's a good old boy from Tennessee, and he just has this thick, thick accent. He'd just say stuff to me all the time like, "Uh, you know, uh-" "I'm gonna ask you to do something," he said, "but just understand that there's not one thing that AA will ask you to do that you ever considered-
prior to your arrival. Like n- there's nothing here that you were considering doing. But, but trust me when I tell you it's gonna work." It's gonna work. You know? And, and we have, we have the testimonies of millions of men and women who've been through the program- Mm-hmm ... and are in the program of, that it does work.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: That it really works. Mm-hmm. It's not snake oil. It's not another- No ... like, wellness hack, uh, on Instagram or TikTok. Like, this very quietly has been working in the lives of people for n- 90 years. Mm-hmm. And it's [00:24:00] because it's really just the gospel.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: And
Mike Glenn: that's- Well, that's what I tell people. I, I wandered in, as I was telling you, uh, to AA the other way.
I became a big fan of my study of church history of Samuel Shoemaker, who was Bill W.'s pastor and, and, and instrumental and... But, but who also had the theology of being engaged with, with those who were, who were around his church, the alcoholics and all in, around his church- Right ... and began that ministry, uh, to that.
And, and, and brought a lot of, of what we understand as AA to it. Yeah. So that's kind of the way I did it, and then through life experience and all that, got to, got to know a lot more of the program, uh, with that. But, uh, th- this, this, this walk of having to deal with our stuff before it deals with us, and the freedom to do that, and the freedom to say, "Yes, I'm on a journey.
I am [00:25:00] messed up. I have messed up. I'll probably mess up again. But I'm, I'm, I'm working my program," to use the AA, uh, language, I, I have found to be very freed- freeing. And, uh-
Ian Cron: Yeah. It, it's freeing because, you know, um, everyone comes into the rooms of AA or whatever- Mm-hmm ... their program, their 12-step program is with a lot of shame, a lot of defeat.
Um, and, you know, I expect I'm gonna make mistakes.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: Like, I- it is baked into my calculations. That's right. I know I am gonna make mistakes, right? And you know, it wasn't until I was really deeply involved in 12-step groups- Right ... that I was ever free enough to say, "And that's okay." Mm-hmm. That is how it is.
Mm-hmm. This is how it is. I am going to make mistakes. Yeah. But I have tools to work with those mistakes, right? I have not only a God who forgives, but I have tools that help me to [00:26:00] restore things when I break them. Mm-hmm. Right? Relationships, um, patterns of behavior that- Mm-hmm ... are unhelpful. Um, and, um, a, a determination that yeah, I have to, I have to- actively, consciously, daily, um, monitor and self-regulate.
I mean, honestly, like, a lot of what 12 steps is, is just like, this is what good self-leadership looks like.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Which we can't do any other kind of leadership until there's effective self-leadership. Yes.
Ian Cron: Yeah. And, and so I don't do any of this with a sense of like, "Oh, I'm broken. I'm bad." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I don't have, you know...
That, when I say that, y- I, honestly even just sitting here saying, "I'm broken," I think there's- Yeah ... there's not a, even a pang in me that feels smaller or- Mm-hmm ... inferior or bad or, you know, any of that stuff. I feel like this is how it is [00:27:00] here.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: And, um, uh, I'm becoming, daily becoming a better man. Yeah.
And I, and I will say this, and this is gonna sound, maybe sound... But I think I can say it with some confidence. I am the best version of myself I have ever been right now. And I recognize I can slip backwards. Sure. Sure. I, you know, slip. I, um... But as of today, I can say I'm the best version of myself that I've ever been.
A part of that is years, my age, my-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Ian Cron: history, but also the personal work, the spiritual work that I've done. Mm-hmm. Um, where I feel at home in my own skin. I feel okay with being me-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Ian Cron: today.
Mike Glenn: I have young pastors come and say, "Well, you know, you, you're such a wise pastor." And I said, "You know, wisdom just means I screwed up before you did."
Yeah. That's
Ian Cron: Yeah. Well, there's some, there, there's some truth to that, right?
Mike Glenn: That's, that's all it means, man. You know, so
Ian Cron: here's a question for you. I... So on the way over here, I'm in the car, and I've been hooked on a song, and you're gonna laugh [00:28:00] when I tell you what the song is. In 19, I think, 69, The Velvet Underground- Yeah
Lou Reed- Yeah ... you know, Take a Walk on the Wild Side. Take, Take a Walk on the Wild Side. They wrote a song called Jesus. Have you ever heard this song? No. It is crazy. And Glen Campbell, of all people, covered it on an album that he did in the '90s called Meet Glen Campbell. You gotta check out this song 'cause it preaches.
All right. Okay? All right. It's three identical verses. They all say the same thing, okay? So they're identical verses. There's no bridge. There's no chorus. It's just three verses, okay? And the lyric is this: "Jesus, help me find my proper place. Jesus, help me find my proper place. Help me in my weakness 'cause I've fallen out of grace.
Jesus, help me find my proper place." [00:29:00] Holy cow This is Lou Reed, right? Yeah 1969. And I've been thinking about that idea of saying to God, you know, "Help me find my proper place."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Ian Cron: Because so oftentimes we, people overvalue and overestimate themselves, or they undervalue-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... and
Ian Cron: underestimate themselves.
They rarely find them- They, they're either in the bow or the stern- ... and they're never happy in the middle of the boat. And one of the things the 12 steps taught me was how to live in the middle of the boat. Yeah. Not too high, not too low. Not too big- Mm-hmm ... not too small. Finding my proper place. Proper place.
And I think that's where we're, that's shalom. Yeah. That's peace. There you go. There you go. That's, that's that, that settled assurance. It's, um... And, and I, I think about what Tim Keller said once. He said that, that, that humility feels like relaxation. [00:30:00] And I love that because you are- Wow ... relaxing back- Yeah.
Mm-hmm ... into this is, this is who I am. Uh, I come with foibles. Uh, I am both a saint and a sinner. Mm-hmm. I am beautiful, and I am broken. Uh, and um, I have to learn how to live in the tension of these things, and that the steps so help with that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Cron: You know? Yeah. To find your proper place, right? 'Cause I've...
Every time you go to an AA meeting and someone's sharing their story, here's what you'll hear. I mean, I, it's almost guaranteed. That's right. You- you're gonna hear this. "I never felt like I really belonged." Belonged. Or, "I never felt at home in my own skin." They had not found their proper place.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Never felt good enough.
Ian Cron: Yes. Yeah. And so what alcohol or food or drugs- Mm-hmm ... or porn or whatever it was, what that gave me was momentary relief from that- Yeah ... dis-ease- Mm-hmm. That's right ... that I felt all the time, right? That [00:31:00] existential- Yeah,
Mike Glenn: med- medicating the pain,
Ian Cron: right ... right. Uh, d- uh, what was it? Um, was it Karl Barth who talked about das Nacht, the night?
Mm-hmm. Right? That, that place of, um, just feeling dislocated- Mm-hmm ... from yourself, alienated from yourself, from others, and from God, right?
Mike Glenn: Hence, hence the, uh, the prodigal son comes to himself in some translations. Yes. In other, in other translations it's comes to his senses. Yes, yes. But, uh-
Ian Cron: And I love that.
Thank you ... yeah,
Mike Glenn: me, me too, me too. That's one of, that's- That's, that's,
Ian Cron: that's better poetry
Mike Glenn: right there ... that's, uh, yeah, this idea that I have misplaced me.
Ian Cron: Yes. And when you find... So- I, I put me down somewhere. But, so, but what I hear in Lou Reed when he's singing that song- Yeah ... right, is he's speaking... The reason it's so powerful, that one line, is he has so beautifully, um, summarized what all of us- Are looking for, which is our proper place.
Yeah. Right? Yeah. I gotta- In, in the love of God ... I gotta, I'm [00:32:00] gonna have
Mike Glenn: to get on Spotify and find that out. Oh,
Ian Cron: get the Glen Campbell
Mike Glenn: version. Get the, get, get- 'Cause the
Ian Cron: Underground Velvet Ver- I mean, the, the- Yeah ... not, not the best. Get the Glen Campbell version.
Mike Glenn: This guy is Ian Cron. He, he is the real deal.
He has written a fabulous book called The Fix: How the 12 Steps-
Ian Cron: Offer a surprising path of transformation for the well-adjusted, the down-and-out, and everyone in between I
Mike Glenn: was just really glad I had remembered The Fix. There you go. With that, get the book. I'm Mike Glenn. This is Engaged Church Network.
Thanks for being with us today.
Thanks for tuning into the Engaged Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagedchurchnetwork.com for [00:33:00] more ways to grow.
