Brett McCracken on How Information is Not Wisdom
In this episode, Mike sits down with author and thinker Brett McCracken (The Wisdom Pyramid, Scrolling Ourselves to Death) to talk about preaching and pastoring in a skeptical, hyper-online world. Brett makes a clear case for why information ≠ wisdom and how leaders can build a healthier “diet” for their souls and churches-starting with Scripture, rooted in the Church, refreshed by creation, deepened through books, and formed by beauty - with technology in its proper place.
-
Mike Glenn: I tell, I tell people the reason you have to be in, in a small group- Mm-hmm ... is the first person you lie to is yourself.
Brett McCracken: Hmm. That's
Mike Glenn: true. Yeah. So when you read the Bible and you say, "Yes, that's a serious sin- Mm-hmm ... but it doesn't apply to me," if you don't have a brother sitting next to you go, "Oh, yes it does.
Don't you remember
when
Now, now you just got a new book out. I mean, it just, it just hit, right? Yeah, it came out in April, I believe. Okay. So it's been out a couple
Brett McCracken: months. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Uh, I was spending a lot of time in, uh, in your book, The Wisdom Pyramid. Oh, [00:01:00] yeah. Okay. And here, here's why I am optimistic. I, I know all- Yeah ... I know all of the numbers, I know what e- all of my unbeliever friends are telling me about the death of the church and all of that.
Yeah. However, I, I believe right now is, is the best time to be sharing the gospel. It is the best opportunity, it's the best, um, uh, setting, uh, uh, you know, life situation, the old zeitgeist, uh- Yeah ... that we talked about, to be p- to be telling the story of Jesus than we have had in, uh, may- maybe my lifetime.
Uh, and I was born in 1956. I'm a baby boomer, uh, all of that stuff. But we grew up with the, uh, with the, um, religion of Jesus. Yeah. Okay? And we knew how to behave as those who were in the religion of Jesus. [00:02:00] All of that broke, uh, in our culture, and we got back to Jesus, and now we have this opportunity where people don't know how to make a good life.
Right. Which is what wisdom is And so that's why I'm excited- Yeah ... that, that when you talk about how you live a good life and who can help- Yes ... us live that best life, then Jesus is the expert in that. Uh- Absolutely ... and, and so that's why I'm, I'm more optimistic now than I really ever have been in my life- Mm
uh, uh, about, about the kingdom- That's cool ... and, and the gospel message. I knew of your book, had read it a long time ago. It was, it was in my Kindle. I, uh, I, I, I got it out when I started, uh, I've just written a book on preaching. It came out, uh, about the same time as yours called Preaching in a Post-Truth World.
And, and that is, uh, every preacher stands up and says, "This [00:03:00] is God's word," and they believe it with everything they have. Yeah. Okay? Their congregation is going, "Maybe." You know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've had about eight truth claims- Right ... uh, just driving in this morning, and I'm weighing the claim of scripture against all the other truth claims.
And, and- Right ... pastors have to be aware of that reality- Yes ... if we're gonna be effective communicators. For sure.
Brett McCracken: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So talk-
Brett McCracken: It's a skeptical, skeptical
Mike Glenn: age. Yes, yes. For sure. So talk to me- Mm-hmm ... talk to me about, um, uh, and, and the folks who watch us are pastors and leaders of local congregations here in the area.
Uh, talk to me about, uh, uh, wisdom, what it is, how, how we get it and how we can test it, because there's a lot in our culture that, that is parading as wisdom.
Brett McCracken: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and, uh, and, and it's not. So I, I, I was excited to get you on here. I've talked way too much [00:04:00] in introduction. I'm sorry. So-
Brett McCracken: Mm. No worries. Yeah.
I mean, the, the first thing that I like to say about wisdom is that it's distinct and different from a knowledge and information, though, which is an important thing in our current zeitgeist to recognize, 'cause we've never been more bombarded with information. Arguably, we're the most knowledgeable, uh, generation of humans ever to walk the earth, in the sense that all of the cumulative knowledge in human history is just, like, two clicks away.
And now AI, you know, can serve it up to us in a nice, tidy summary. So we're not lacking in information, uh, or knowledge, uh, but we are deficient in wisdom. Uh, and wisdom is a different thing. Wisdom is not just knowing facts and kind of accumulating- information. It's, it's knowing how to live rightly, [00:05:00] um, in accordance with God's design.
So there's, there's a, there's a kind of practical element to wisdom. It's how do we now, how do we now live, um, knowing what we know, having the information, having the experiences that we have? How do we respond to situations in any given moment in everyday life? Um, and, and I believe wisdom is fundamentally tied to God's truth.
And so I think it's hard to m- to make a claim that someone is wise, um, if they don't know God, if they have no relationship to God because He is, uh, wisdom. He is the embodiment of wisdom. The Bible talks about that. Um, He's the source. He's the foundation. Um, He's the arbiter of truth. Um, and so I think wisdom comes, uh, in relationship with God and dependence on Him.
The Bible tells us, "If any of you lacks wisdom, ask and it will be given to you," right? You- So implicitly, it's saying wisdom is something God [00:06:00] is-- He has. He, He's eager to give it. We just have to ask for it. Yeah, and all- Um, so- All
Mike Glenn: of the, all of the references in Proverbs about how wisdom- Right ... is seeking someone- That's right
to teach and someone to be in relationship with.
Brett McCracken: Yes. Yeah, so I think, I think wisdom is, like I said at the beginning, I think it's probably, um, on the decline in our culture in direct proportion to how informed we are. And, and that's something I argue in the beginning of The Wisdom Pyramid, is the first sentence of the book is something like, um, we have more and more information and less and less wisdom.
So there's like an inverse pr- correlation there. Um, and, and part of that is just when you're bombarded with information all day, every day, as we are in the, in the internet age, um, our brains are so, uh, overstimulated and kind of dizzied by this kind of constant flood of really fragmentary, [00:07:00] disconnected information that's, uh, not really-- there's no context for it.
There's no synthesis, connection, and our brains just don't know what to do with it, and we don't leave ourselves time to actually do that kind of deeper level, um, work of evaluating all this, all this flood of information and kinda thinking critically about it, and that's really where wisdom begins to develop is, um, I, I, I like to say there's, there's an important ingredient with developing, developing wisdom, and it's, it's time.
Um, so I think a relationship with God and worship, that's an important ingredient to wisdom. But actually having time and space, um, mentally, kind of spiritually to just like- To let the stimulation that comes into our souls and our brains to actually, like,
Mike Glenn: percolate- Dissipate ... a little
Brett McCracken: bit.
Mike Glenn: Yeah Well, and also to
Brett McCracken: dissipate,
Mike Glenn: to, to- And to dissipate
to, to, to create your- To let the things that
Brett McCracken: are trivial [00:08:00] and unimportant- Yeah, to fade- ... just kind of fade away ... to fade away.
Mike Glenn: For sure. Uh, the number of times we read into the gospel where Jesus slipped away, uh- Yes. Yeah ... in, into the silence and into the wilderness to-
Brett McCracken: Yeah ... kind of, yeah He recognized the importance of space- Right
and kind of time and just, yeah, not just living in this rushed way of like- Mm-hmm ... yeah, one piece of content to the next, which is how we live, you know? Right. You know, and I'm prone to this too. I tend to go from reading a book to, like, listening to a podcast, to, to watching a YouTube video, to, you know, any chance, any chance we have during our day, like five minutes here- Right
you know, three minutes there, we tend to like try to like cram more- Mm-hmm ... content. And it's, it's coming from a well-intentioned place, I think. It's, it's the whole, um, you know, seize the day, be productive, you know, optimize your life mentality. But I think there's a real downside to that
Mike Glenn: mentality. Yeah, it's called, [00:09:00] it's called waterboarding, right?
Yeah. I mean, that, that's how they torture you with waterboarding is they give you- Yeah ... so much water. Too much, yeah. You, you cannot process it. And now we- For sure ... we're being waterboarded with information. Yeah. And there's so much coming at us so fast that we don't have time to process it.
Brett McCracken: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Uh- That's a good image.
Yeah ... and, uh, and it ends, it ends up kind of, uh, tipping us over, over the edge. Yeah. Uh, i- in your book, you talk about, uh, the sources of wisdom and the practices of wisdom. Mm-hmm. Uh, my f- my frustration and what I'm, uh, what we're talking about a lot now is people never take the time to fully work out their own theology.
Mm. That is, you have an experience with Christ. Mm-hmm. It's a very real experience. You, uh, you are baptized, you become part of a local fellowship, uh, you're in a group. You, [00:10:00] you get together and you talk about a scripture passage, but you never take- Mm ... the time to, to, to fully write down and work through, this is who I believe God is, this is what I believe he's done, this is who Jesus is, this is what creation m-...
I mean, all of those things, and we end up with this- Patchwork- Yeah ... based on some kind of crisis where we've had to kinda sit down and what does it mean- Mm-hmm ... uh, to follow Christ when things don't work out kinda thing. Mm. Uh, and, and one of the things I'm really pushing people on is let's be intentional about what we believe and why we believe it before the question is asked-
Brett McCracken: Yeah
Mike Glenn: uh, with that. Yeah. So, uh, you know, I love, I love the way you grabbed hold of the food pyramid- Mm. Mm-hmm ... and kinda put that structure together for us. So, so if... Say, say I'm a new believer, but I want to develop a, a way to think ri- righteously about God. How do I start?
Brett McCracken: Yeah, I mean, I [00:11:00] think, um, to your point that you were just raising, I think you don't start with Google and, like, AI.
You don't. And that's, that's why I have technology at the top of the- Oh, I,
Mike Glenn: I, I already had my phone out there- ... wisdom pyramid ...
Brett McCracken: Brett, so. Right. Our, our inclination in the digital age is to, like, we want instant answers, right? Mm-hmm. We want... We don't wanna do the processing and the work of cultivating wisdom.
We wanna just get the answer. We wanna, like, g- get what Google gives us and be done, right? So I would say don't do that, even though that's our impulse in the digital age. I think you need to kind of recognize that wisdom takes time to develop. And so starting with God's word is what I argue in The Wisdom Pyramid.
That's the sh- that's the most reliable source of wisdom we have, right? Because it's God's direct revelation to us. It's God speaking to us. So the embodiment of wisdom, truth incarnate, that's the, that's your, your best bet. So [00:12:00] I would say you need to start to build kind of a lasting, flourishing faith. You need to start by building in habits of scripture nourishment.
So that's hard. I'm not, I'm not gonna, like, um, you know, say that this is easy. It's, it's hard even for someone who grew up in the church, has been raised in this. The Bible is an ancient document. It's far from us culturally. It's far from us linguistically. So it's not gonna be easy, but if we recognize that scripture is the only infallible source of truth we have, it has to occupy the foundation of our, of our diet if we want, if we want to be wise.
Mike Glenn: There's no kind of success without some sacrifice. Mm-hmm. Uh, a- any, any success requires some kinda sacrifice. For sure. But having said that, and, uh, and you know, you and I, uh, have- Mm ... spent our entire lives studying scripture, and I am amazed every time I open the text- Yeah ... uh, [00:13:00] that there is a richness and a deepness, uh, and a depth that I, that I had overlooked, run by and- Yeah
and, and now I wanna spend a whole day on this one passage, uh- Mm ... scripture, and I love doing that. But I also, I also want to encourage- Everybody. Don't, don't be afraid of this text. Yeah. Uh, there, you know, there are things in Proverbs, there's the Psalms, there's the Gospels. Mm-hmm. Uh, they were written for people just like us.
Right. And, uh, uh- They're, they're poetry. You know- And you m- The Psalms are like- Yeah. And, and you may not- They're like- ... get everything, but you'll get what
Brett McCracken: you need- Right ... uh, for, for the day. You'll, you'll see yourself in the Psalms, right? Right. They, they cover the span of human emotion and experience.
Right. And if, if people claim the Bible is, you know, not relatable to their everyday experience, they need to just go read the Psalms. I've, I, I feel, feel sad.
Mike Glenn: Just they haven't read it- Yeah ... and that just- Yes. For sure ... that, that disappoints me is when I hear that. Yeah. Okay. We sh- we, we, we [00:14:00] start with scripture- Yeah
and then we
Brett McCracken: build on it with ... The church. Yeah, so the second level of the wisdom pyramid is the church. And the reason for that partly has to do with scripture, because it's, it's kinda hard to just go it alone with the, with reading the Bible. Like, it's important to have personal kind of habits of devotional reading of the Bible, but because it's such a difficult text to understand and apply, we need Christian community.
So that's what, that's one of the purposes of the church is this, it's this community of biblical interpretation where we gather together to hear the word unpacked by an, uh, a pastor who knows the word well. We, we go to Bible study usually in our church, where we're kind of in a small group and we're, we're learning from one another about how to understand and apply the Bible.
Um, and so if it's true that the Bible is the most important source of our wisdom, the [00:15:00] church is a, is an important source of our wisdom because it helps us unpack and get the most out of the Bible for our everyday lives. Uh, and not only the, the, the biblical interpretation part, but I think the church helps us in our wisdom because community helps us be wise.
Um, i- uh, if we just go our own way in life, right, the heart is deceitful above all things. We're, we're prone to wander. Um, we're not gonna be wise. We tend to kind of wander into foolishness by our sinful nature. But God gives us community. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I tell, I tell people the reason you have to be in, in a small group- Mm-hmm
is the first person you lie to is yourself. Hmm. That's true. Yeah. So when you read the Bible and you say, "Yes, that's a serious sin- Mm-hmm ... but it doesn't apply to me," if you don't have a brother sitting next to you go, "Oh, yes, it does. Don't you remember when..." Right. Yeah. "You deal with this all the time."
You're- Yeah ... you're never gonna get any- And the [00:16:00] other thing is, uh, you know, the, the fifth step in AA is the, is the, uh, ruthless inventory Mm. Mm-hmm You have to do that in the presence of another AA member. You cannot- For sure ... do it by yourself. For sure. And the reason is AA is afraid that you'll get so dark that you'll slip off the edge, and there- Mm
has to be somebody to hold you. Yes. Uh, h- hold on to you should only slip away. The number- Mm ... of times in my life where something has blown up, uh, something has gone wrong, uh- Mm ... have been, and somebody simply showed up. Yeah. Uh, and then I watched how, how a wise person lives in the middle of this. Yeah. A- and that's where the wisdom lesson came.
Brett McCracken: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, wisdom is cultivated in community- Yeah ... for all the reasons that you just- Mm-hmm ... mentioned. And, you know, people, the people God places around us are mirrors [00:17:00] to us, helping us see our blind spots that we- Yeah ... can't see as well. They're the people who, like, pull us back from the brink when we're- Mm-hmm
we're walking towards destruction. Um, and they're the people that model Christ-likeness for us, because so much of how we grow in anything in life is not just being told to do something, but seeing it done, right? Seeing it done. Seeing it work. Seeing it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Brett McCracken: Seeing it worked out in other- Mm-hmm ... people's lives and, and seeing it lead to flourishing in their lives.
Right. And so the church, I just, I love my church community because it's this God-given, um, kind of buttress supporting the, the building of wisdom in my own life. Mm-hmm. Um, and I just think in an individualistic age where the ph- the smartphone is kind of pulling each of us into these little echo chambers of kind of algorithms that just kind of feed you more of what you like- Right
and they, they essentially, uh, affirm you in whatever, whatever decision- Mm-hmm ... [00:18:00] whatever self-conception you have. That's what digital life does, but church life should be a healthy kind of pushback against our worst tendencies, and should actually redirect us in necessary ways, uh, in the direction of wisdom and Christlikeness.
And hold you, and hold
Mike Glenn: you accountable in the best sense of that word- Mm-hmm ... uh, to, to the higher- Yes ... standard of Christ.
Brett McCracken: Yes, for sure.
Mike Glenn: Um, and, and the, the next after that is, is what? Beauty or great literature?
Brett McCracken: No, the next after that I have is nature, God's creation. Nature, nature. That's
Mike Glenn: right. The, the
Brett McCracken: second book.
Yes, the second book. Yeah, so the first book, special revelation, that's infallible. That's, that's the most important source of wisdom. But throughout Christian tradition, there's been this idea of two books, and, and the book, the book of nature is also revelation of God. It's, it's his handiwork. Uh, it's general revelation, so it's, [00:19:00] you know, it's, it's sometimes can be misinterpreted, and it isn't always clear, but nevertheless, it's God's handiwork.
It's, it's a, it comes directly from the Creator. And so when we go out in nature, when we go out in Creation, um, there's things that we can learn about who God is, what, what are his attributes like, you know, by looking at his handiwork. In the same way, like, you go to a museum and you, you look at enough paintings by Vincent van Gogh or Claude Monet, you can start to kind of, um, learn things about- Yeah
what type of person that artist was. Yeah, rec- recognize their, their touch. Yeah. You can recognize their signature- Mm-hmm ... and kind of what, what they were thinking about and what inspired them. So I love, I love nature, I love creation, so there's that, there's that revelation aspect- Mm ... that's good for our wisdom.
But I also think, um, we underestimate the value of being out in God's creation for [00:20:00] just our mental health- Yeah ... and kind of clearing- The whole soul
Mike Glenn: healing thing that everybody's getting into now. Yeah
Brett McCracken: Yeah. Just clearing away the noise. Mm-hmm. If, if part of the problem of our unwise kind of disposition in the digital age is this overcrowded, overstimulated information overload, I think putting down your device, you know, unplugging and just going out into God's creation is very reorienting.
It's kind of like, I am the creation, I am in God's creation, and this is, you know... It's a way for you to acknowledge God, to remember him, to be grateful. I sometimes, I'm in a beautiful place in the world, and I just, like, have a profound moment of acknowledging God and being grateful for his gratuitous, you know, creation.
It's more beautiful than it needs to be. It's not just functional, right? Flowers are not just functional parts of creation, they're [00:21:00] extravagant. And what kind of god would create, you know, 500 species of hummingbird? Like, it's... Honestly, like, when you start to kind of survey the, um, diversity and the extravagance of creation, it just, it should lead you to worship, and I think anything that leads you to worship is good for your wisdom.
Mike Glenn: I've always found it interesting that God introduces himself in his text as artist. Mm. Yeah. You would think he would tell us about salvation. Right. That that would be the first thing, the Exodus kind of story. Mm-hmm. But he introduces himself first as artist. Yeah. Come see what I have made. Yes. You know?
Yeah. And if you have any friends who are artists, they'll, they'll, they'll worry you to death, but coming to look at the new thing I've made and, and, uh, the new painting- Yeah ... I have and all of that. So I think it is- And then- ... fascinating that God says- Yeah ... "Come see what I have made." And, and celebrate it [00:22:00] with me
Brett McCracken: Yeah.
And it even has that kind of artist, uh, you know, an artist standing before his painting, and he says, "That's very good." Yeah. Like, "That looks good." Yeah. Scripture even says that. He saw that he... what he had made- Yeah ... and he saw that it was good. Um, and then in the case of human creation, it was very good. So yeah, I think you're totally right.
It's, it's important to recognize that God is a creator, um, and what he has created matters for our wisdom. And we can't just, um, we can't just think of ourselves as disembodied brains accumulating information. We are embodied beings who are part of the physical creation of God's world, and that's important for our wisdom.
And then we're into beauty, right? Um,
Mike Glenn: I think I have- Or, or through- ... books and reading-
Brett McCracken: Books, the great- ... in the next one. Yeah, and then beauty.
Mike Glenn: I'm, we gonna get to beauty sooner or later. We're gonna get to beauty. It's a-
Brett McCracken: But yeah. It, it is confusing, because beauty and [00:23:00] nature are kind of very related, so you would think- Yeah
that beauty connects. But, um, yeah, I put books next because, um, as you're starting to get into like things that are more mediated by humans- Mm-hmm ... um, which, you know, God created humans to be creators and to be intelligent, so there is wisdom to be gleaned. But because humans are fallible, there's just a little bit more potential for error and- Yeah
foolishness to be part of the mix. So, um, yeah, books obviously, like beauty- Yeah. I don't know about you,
Mike Glenn: but I have found myself going back and reading the classics, the old stuff. Augustine. Yeah. Yes. Uh, you know, uh- Yeah ... uh, Bonhoeffer. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, these things that have been tested by the generations now and still- Yeah
kinda flow in on, on all of those top 10 list books you have to read. Yeah. These are books that are on there. Uh, [00:24:00] and, uh, uh, you know, there, there are some books being written now that, that I think will, will stand the test of time. Uh, but, uh, w- But we don't know. You don't know- But you don't know ... until time passes.
Yeah. Yeah. And so- Mm-hmm ... but, but I've have really found myself, uh- Mm-hmm ... going back and slowly reading some of these books that I had to read in seminary or had to read in college- Mm-hmm ... and, uh, and was not attentive to the text as I should've been. Yeah. And now I guess I'm at a- Yeah, that's
Brett McCracken: something that I, I argue in the chapter on books, is I think it was C.S.
Lewis who had this whole like read like one old book for every new book you read or something. Um, so I think that's good wisdom for the reasons that you mention, like books that have been tested by time and are still being read and are still being found to be w- to be sources of wisdom, you know, hundreds, thousands of years later.
That's gonna be a good use of your time to, to sit down and read that [00:25:00] book. Um, but the other thing about reading books that I think is important is it's not just what we read, it's not just the content in a book that makes us wise. It's, it's just the discipline of, like, sitting down and focusing on one argument or one subject matter for an extended period of time, um, and actually letting an author kind of, um, inform you and make connections.
Like, in an age when we're kind of going through life from, like, one little un- disconnected fragment of information to the next, to the next, to the next, and it's a mile wide, inch deep. It's a very surface level, kind of scanning the horizon for information, and that's making us a little bit discombobulated, a little bit foolish.
We really need things like books to help retrain our muscles of critical thinking and actually, like, focusing. And I th- there's science that's showing that, [00:26:00] like, our brains are actually losing the ability to read well, um, because of our digital environment. And so I think as Christians, we need to kind of push against that trend and actually become better readers, because we're gonna need those muscles if we're gonna be wise, um, people in, you know, in our lives.
Now we're on beauty. Now we're on beauty. Now we got there. I got... Listen, I got a gr-
Mike Glenn: I, r- r- the reason I'm saying- Mm ... I, I, I have a great story about beauty. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, I was 15 years old. My father had a television and appliance store. Mm-hmm. And had a very successful year, and because of that, won a trip to Spain.
Hmm. And one of the things we did was we got to tour El Greco's work. Oh, cool. And I got to stand in front of The Tears of Saint Peter. Hmm. Mm-hmm. And I don't know if you've ever seen the painting or know what it's about, but it is Peter- Mm ... after he's denied Christ. Yeah. And if you stand [00:27:00] in front of that painting- Mm-hmm
you can see the tears move down his cheeks. Hmm. Yeah. And I was, I was a 15-year-old. I didn't have time. I was too cool for school. You know, those kind of things. Mm-hmm. And to be stopped dead in my tracks- Mm-hmm ... by the power- Yeah ... of this painting, I have never forgotten that moment- Yeah ... and, and revisit it often in my own mind- Hmm
uh, b- b- because of, of the, the holiness that g- that grabbed me in- Hmm ... in, in that moment. I love that. So where, where do, where
Brett McCracken: do you experience beauty? Hmm. Yeah, I mean, as you tell that story, I think so many stories like that come to mind- Yeah ... for me. I think probably every human who has ever lived has had a moment like that where it's like some encounter with a specific- Yeah expression of beauty.
Yeah. And that's just, it's something that's ingrained into humans, is [00:28:00] that we are creators ourselves. Like, in the- we're created in the image of a God who, who delights in making beautiful things. Mm-hmm. As to go back to, like, hummingbirds, right? Right. Like, God clearly likes to, to create beautiful, interesting things, and humans do that as well.
And so throughout human history, whether it's cave paintings or, you know, whatever, prehistoric art to, like, uh, El Greco, and then art today, that's just something humans are wired to do. Yeah. We want to create beautiful things. Was
Mike Glenn: it Jo- And we want to appreciate beautiful things ... John Polkinghorne, was it John Polkinghorne who said, "It pleased God to create a creation-" Mm-hmm
that keeps on creating"?
Brett McCracken: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's, it's one of the coolest things about God creating us in the way that He did, is- Yeah ... He wants to bring himself glory by his image-bearers being kind of- Creating ... wired- Yes. Right ... [00:29:00] to create beautiful things. Mm-hmm. And because we're fallen, you know, a lot of what we create can sometimes be false and, and ugly.
And if you look at a lot of contemporary art, that's what it is, right? It's, like, subversive and it's, you know, intentionally provocative. But, um, it doesn't change the fact that we gravitate towards beautiful things. When we listen to a Bach symphony or, you know, Beethoven, there's just something about it that stirs our heart.
And, you know, it's interesting with music, scientists are really puzzled by why, why humans gravitate to music. There's, they have, they kind of attempt a scientific explanation, but they can't really wrap their heads around why, like, certain chords in music stir our hearts in the way that they do. It's a very mysterious thing.
Um, so yeah, I would say a lot of my most powerful encounters with, with [00:30:00] transcendence, I would say, through beauty, has been through music and, uh, just the way that, like, even, like, a, an un- um, a, a song with no words can capture something just majestic about the world and life and the ups and downs, the dynamics of existence.
Um, so there's a, um, band that I like, Explosions in the Sky. It's a Texas, it's an e- it's a electric guitar instrumental band. They don't have words in their music, but they, they create really kind of symphonic, like, eight-minute long, uh, rock songs. Um, and I d- One of the most, like, profound experiences I've ever had at a concert was an Explosions in the Sky concert- Um, i- in a cemetery.
It was Hollywood Forever Cemetery in Hollywood. And they hold concerts there on a regular basis for whatever reason. [00:31:00] But I was just, like, sitting there in this cemetery, and maybe I, maybe being in a cemetery just had me thinking about the ephemeral nature of life and death, and kind of, uh... But something about that, that experience of Explosions in the Sky and their, their music in that moment, that was like 20 years ago, but I still remember it to this day as this, like, goosebump moment of like, "Wow," like, I'm e- I'm experiencing something holy and transcendent- That's right, yeah
through, through this beauty Som- something different,
Mike Glenn: yeah, yeah. There is something about, uh, that is very redemptive- Yes ... uh, about art and, and stuff. Now, I, I, I have taken way too much of your time, but I wanna get to that very top of, uh- Mm ... of the pyramid with the social media- Yes ... that, uh, and your new book is- Yeah
Scrolling Ourselves to Death?
Brett McCracken: Yep. So, so the, the reason it's at the top is, if you remember in the food pyramid, the top is, like, junk food and, like, [00:32:00] sweets, fats, oils, and sweets. So what, what I'm arguing is, um, it's, it's not like you can't go be on social media. Like, you can have a cookie, you know, occasionally, but if it, if you make that the staple of your diet, you are going to be unwell.
You know, your health is going to suffer. And I think a lot of people in our culture today have made their social media feeds and their smartphones, like, the base staple of their diet, and it's no wonder that we're becoming sickly as a society because it's not nutritious. It's... There can be some nutrition occasionally, but, you know, for the most part, what you're encountering on TikTok or Twitter or whatever, like, it's just not, it's not- Not helpful
nu- nutritious material. So what I argue- And if you mon- Yeah ... and
Mike Glenn: if we monitored our social media time, we would have more time- Mm-hmm ... for the scripture reading and for the- Exactly ... great literature and all that. Exactly. So there's, there, there, there's p- there's [00:33:00] plenty of time. So it's about
Brett McCracken: proportions, right?
Right. It's,
Mike Glenn: it's about
Brett McCracken: putting it in its proper place. Mm-hmm. It's not like you can never go on your phone and go on social media, but you have to make sure that you have enough- Mm ... time for those more nutritious, uh, food
Mike Glenn: groups. For the things that- You know? ...
Brett McCracken: really make your body live well. Exactly. Yeah.
For all those other things that we just talked about that are- Yeah ... so much better for our- Mm ... our wisdom. And our wellbeing. So yeah, Scrolling Ourselves to Death, just a quick word about that book. It's essentially, like, drilling down in that top category of the wisdom pyramid. Like, w- how are, how are our phones, how are s- how is social media making us sickly?
And then what can we do about it? And how can we- Mm-hmm ... how can we use these devices and use these technologies in a way that is going to, um, be more redemptive and kind of, um, actually, like- Be something that isn't gonna lead, lead to our spiritual death, but actually can maybe bring life, um- Yeah, bring, bring life to us
to, yeah.
Mike Glenn: What are you most, [00:34:00] from your, uh, perspective as a, uh, observer of life and culture and- Mm-hmm ... what are you hopeful about?
Brett McCracken: Yeah, I mean, to, to circle back to what you said at the beginning, I agree that I think we're in a, in a pretty ripe moment in terms of people being hungry for a better way to live.
As, you know, technology, the digital world that we're in, especially for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, who have grown up so immersed in this, when I talk to young people in that generation, I just get this sense that they know that this is bad for them. They know that living on their phones has not done good things for them.
They feel that kind of sickness that I've been talking about. And so I think we're in a moment where there's a widespread recognition that the habits of the digital world, the, the kind of, uh, falsehoods that [00:35:00] come across our s- our social media feeds, people are hungry for real truth, not just the eight- 18 competing truth claims that you see on Facebook at any given moment, but, like, real solid truth that can actually lead them to real flourishing.
So I think that we're starting to see, on a statistical level, uh, Gen Z is returning to church. Um, you know, the ... It's actually starting to tick upwards in terms of Gen Z attending church, and I'm very hopeful and encouraged by that. Um, there's even some indication that Gen Z men in particular are, are, are coming back to church at higher rates, and I think that can only be a good thing, right?
Um, if, if the men of the next generation are recognizing their need for God, for church, for something of [00:36:00] substance to kind of lead them to, um, a life of flourishing, a life of sacrificial leadership, then that's a wonderful thing. So I think there's a lot of signs of hope right now for mission and evangelism, and I hope that Christians and churches seize the moment, um, not by Trying to be what the culture is technologically.
So I don't think that churches should try to, like, be a high-tech kind of experience that, like, meets people where they're at on their smartphones. Um, I think we should just be the church that, that the Church of Jesus, Jesus Christ has always been, you know, for 2,000 years. Yeah, when I tell
Mike Glenn: people, I tell people that, listen, the, the world is not mad at the church 'cause we're different.
Right. They're mad at us 'cause we're not different enough.
Brett McCracken: That's so good. Yeah. That's absolutely true, and I have been harping on this for years. Yeah. Me, me. I've, I've written entire books about this. Uh, my first book was called Hipster Christianity, and it was this whole critique of [00:37:00] churches trying to be too cool- Yeah
and trying to be too relevant to the cultural zeitgeist. Right. That's not what people need the church to be. People, people need the church to just be a, an honest truth teller of God's- Mm-hmm ... Word, and a, a community of, um, loving transformation. Uh, where people are, are loved, but also, um, spurred to grow- Right
and to change, and to be more like Jesus. And that's what the church is... That's what God created the church to be. And so- Yeah ... we don't need to reinvent the wheel. We don't need to, like, uh, think outside of the box. We just need to kinda go back to the basics. That's right. Right. Be, and be, be- Block- blocking and tackling.
Yeah. That's, uh- Be, be healthy churches ... the basics of the gospel. Mm-hmm ... and I think we'll see people coming in greater numbers. Um, and of course, we have to reach out to them, too- Yeah ... and not just expect that they'll come in the door. Mm-hmm. But we need to be proactive in evangelism and, um, [00:38:00] uh, mission.
Mike Glenn: Well, I couldn't agree with you more. This is Brett McCracken. He is the author of Scrolling Ourselves to Death, The Wisdom Pyramid that we've been talking about today, and several other books. He is an editor and writer with The Gospel Coalition, and a film critic. Mm-hmm. Uh, and you have been a fabulous, fabulous guest, uh, on our podcast today, and we certainly thank you for being here.
I'm Mike Glenn. Thank you. And this is the Engage Church Network Podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for tuning into the Engage Church Network Podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to [00:39:00] grow.
