Knowing + Utilizing Your Congregations Gifts
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn and this is the Engaged Church Network. We are glad that you have, uh, stopped by today and have dropped in on this conversation. Uh, with me today is Michele Dyer. I have known Michelle for.
Michele Dyer: 15 years,
Mike Glenn: 15, 16 years. Uh, and I've known her in two or three different ways. First, uh, her husband John served on the staff of Brentwood Baptist Church for a long time.
And for a long time, Michele was John's wife.
Michele Dyer: Right.
Mike Glenn: And happy being that That's right. And still are. We wanna get that in there.
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Uh, but your life began to morph. And the reason I I wanna pick up on, uh, at, at this point is because what happened in you?
Michele Dyer: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: And around you as our church was growing
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: And developing new opportunities, uh, we want to see happen over and over again. And a lot of our churches and a lot of the people who are just now in the pew Yes. [00:01:00] But don't know how to get engaged.
Michele Dyer: Great.
Mike Glenn: So you show up, you start going through the new member process.
Michele Dyer: Right. And uh, yeah, it was. Just like every new church, church member, you know?
Mm-hmm. Brentwood had such a great system in place that was really intentional, where you came to a class about membership. Mm-hmm. And part of that class was to take some spiritual gifts assessments. And we actually did something different of having personality and talking about passions. And it was such an important time and.
My marriage, my kids were still young. Um, John and I had been married about 10 years, and we just had one light bulb after another. First of, first of all, about our marriage. Mm-hmm. Um, but I remember before we moved to Nashville and came to Brentwood at our previous church, someone said to me, you know, Michelle, God isn't moving.
John alone to Nashville, he's moving your whole family. [00:02:00] And I've never forgotten that because it set the tone, it set the stage
Mike Glenn: right for you, for you to be open
Michele Dyer: to me to think. Mm-hmm. Wow. So this isn't just for John's job.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michele Dyer: God might have something for me too. So I just assumed, okay, it's probably women's ministry, it's probably teaching a class, you know?
Um, those were things I was passionate about, but. This was such a drastically different type of ministry, um, place was. Mm-hmm. And the membership ministry. And Lisa Baker was there teaching our class at the time. Right. And she, uh, just saw something in me I didn't even know was there. And she was leading this ministry that kind of helped people engage in their calling mm-hmm.
In serving in the church. And so she began. Spending time with me, mentoring me, showing me how the ministry worked, why it worked, and it just opened up for me a whole new world of possibilities.
Mike Glenn: Now let's let, let's go back and [00:03:00] kind of the, the foundation of the Brentwood Ministry was, we believed everybody was bringing, uh, that, that God was bringing.
All the people he brought to our church for a reason. That every member had a particular reason. and it was our privilege and honor to work with this person to help them find We weren't interested in just filling slots. Uh, we need, we got three student workers and five preschool workers.
So you go. here We wanted to hear what God, what kind of dreams and passions and, wiring God had placed in you. And uh, then we wanted to train you and release you to that ministry.
Michele Dyer: Exactly. And it was such a new, fresh thing for me. Mm-hmm. To, to see that and such an exciting thing that Brentwood has always had as part of its DNA.
So pretty exciting to, to watch that unfold. And not only just for me, but. Later on, it actually helped us tote discover that [00:04:00] God was reforming and changing my husband's ministry into something new. Right. And that there were some misfits for him. Mm-hmm. You know, that it helped us identify those things. So it not only helped us move into roles, it helped us define the things that we weren't supposed to be doing as well.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Michele Dyer: Yeah. You know?
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Every, everybody thinks, well, I, you know, I have to do this, I have to do that. There's a lot of things we're not called to do.
Michele Dyer: Right.
Mike Glenn: Not gifted to do.
Michele Dyer: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and I was example one of that there, you know, there were two or three things I did pretty well and there was a lot of things that I did not do well at all.
Uh, and, and in fact the church didn't want me near those processes, uh, because of the way I'm wired. So it's not that it's right or wrong.
Michele Dyer: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, it, it's just not right for you.
Michele Dyer: That's exactly right. And it's very liberating to learn. Yeah. I don't have to do those things that feel like a right-handed glove on a left hand.
Mike Glenn: [00:05:00] Right.
Michele Dyer: You know, I can do the things that I was made to do. Now that doesn't mean. That we never have to do anything we're not good at.
Mike Glenn: Well, every family member's got chores.
Michele Dyer: Exactly, yes.
Mike Glenn: You know, there, there, there's giftings and Right. And service and all of that. Right. But you, you still gotta take out the trash.
There's no spiritual gift for taking out the trash.
Michele Dyer: That's right. Unfortunately,
Mike Glenn: you still have to do those kind of things.
Michele Dyer: Nobody wants to do that part. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it is something that. I think we, it gives us a language to identify those things which we really thrive in. Mm-hmm. And those things, which we don't, and that's okay to acknowledge.
I think it's just as important to acknowledge our weaknesses mm-hmm. As it is our strengths. Because when God calls you into a place of weakness, you know, I'm gonna have to partner with someone
Mike Glenn: Right.
Michele Dyer: In this, he, he didn't bring me here to be alone. Mm-hmm. He brought me here to find my helpmate. You know.
Mike Glenn: Well, and Jesus always sent the disciples out by twos.
Michele Dyer: Absolutely. We
Mike Glenn: don't have, uh, any [00:06:00] story of lone ranger ministry.
Michele Dyer: No, exactly.
Mike Glenn: We don't have any of those stories.
Michele Dyer: Yeah. We need each other.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Let's, uh, let, let's track this thing from two, two different ways. One. Uh, most, most of the people watching this podcast are, um, pastors, leaders of churches, that kind of thing.
Michele Dyer: Great.
Mike Glenn: Uh, now what they're hearing is, oh, great. You've just added an entire new layer of work
Michele Dyer: mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: To my week. Yes. So why in the world do I want to do this?
Michele Dyer: Right? It's easy to look at it that way because there is some preparation mm-hmm. And some groundwork that has to be laid. But the truth is, um, there is so many resources.
There are so many resources in the congregation that can be helpful to the pastor. Right. And um, and honestly, the pastor's function was never to be. Just, I get it all done. It's
Mike Glenn: new to be the church.
Michele Dyer: No.
Mike Glenn: You know, and a lot of, a lot of, a lot of church members [00:07:00] and a lot of pastors think they're calling us to be the church
Michele Dyer: and, and
Mike Glenn: it's not.
Michele Dyer: And what a burden ministry becomes in that way. Mm-hmm. I really believe that the pastor can be the equipper. You know mm-hmm. As the maximizer, the person who identifies someone and then helps them figure out what God, just like you said earlier, mm-hmm. What God has called that person to my church to become.
Mm-hmm. And so, um, that then becomes just a whole world of discovery when you're able to. To liberate someone to do what God's called them to do.
Mike Glenn: Well, and Jesus always sent the disciples out by twos.
Michele Dyer: Absolutely. We
Mike Glenn: don't have, uh, any story of lone ranger ministry.
Michele Dyer: No, exactly.
Mike Glenn: We don't have any of those stories.
Michele Dyer: Yeah. We need each other.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Let's, uh, let, let's track this thing from two, two different ways. One. Uh, most, most of the people watching this podcast are, um, pastors, leaders of churches, that kind of thing.
Michele Dyer: Great.
Mike Glenn: Uh, now what they're hearing is, oh, great. You've just added an entire new layer of [00:08:00] work
Michele Dyer: mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: To my week. Yes. So why in the world do I want to do this?
Michele Dyer: Right? It's easy to look at it that way because there is some preparation mm-hmm. And some groundwork that has to be laid. But the truth is, um, there is so many resources.
There are so many resources in the congregation that can be helpful to the pastor. Right. And um, and honestly, the pastor's function was never to be. Just, I get it all done. It's
Mike Glenn: new to be the church.
Michele Dyer: No.
Mike Glenn: You know, and a lot of, a lot of, a lot of church members and a lot of pastors think they're calling us to be the church
Michele Dyer: and, and
Mike Glenn: it's not.
Michele Dyer: And what a burden ministry becomes in that way. Mm-hmm. I really believe that the pastor can be the equipper. You know mm-hmm. As the maximizer, the person who identifies someone and then helps them figure out what God, just like you said earlier, mm-hmm. What God has called that person to my church to become.
Mm-hmm. And so, um, that [00:09:00] then becomes just a whole world of discovery when you're able to. To liberate someone to do what God's called them to do.
And that requires, yeah.
Mike Glenn: And you were relieved the congregation.
Michele Dyer: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Because they thought they were going to have to tell you
Michele Dyer: Exactly. Just let 'em off the hook. But it is,
Mike Glenn: but you know, some of the stories that we have of Brentwood, we have, we have Joe Hudson who took care of all of the construction
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Of all of our, I didn't, I I did very little.
Michele Dyer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, in our building process. Yeah. And, and you know, the facilities we have.
Michele Dyer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh. The special needs ministry came out of the burden of our lay people, the deaf ministry Yes. Came out of the burden of our lay people.
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Uh, I, I, my whole thing was, yeah, that's a great idea.
And, and off we went
Michele Dyer: and just
Mike Glenn: set
Michele Dyer: him for to do it.
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah.
Michele Dyer: Yeah. But so much more work can be done when we empower people in their passions. Mm-hmm. And it's just a matter of giving them permission to [00:10:00] try and fail, um, to get in there and to experiment with a new ministry. And. There is this consideration that we wanna not have mission drift because we enable things that maybe God isn't calling our church to do.
Right. So that's always a tension.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michele Dyer: Um, we don't wanna just encourage every passion that comes down the road. We wanna evaluate is the Lord calling us to this? Right. And. So, and yet at the same time, we don't wanna fear that we're gonna get off track by empowering people to do what they're called to do.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Michele Dyer: You know? So, um, so it's not goes, it still
Mike Glenn: has to, there still has to be the alignment absolute. You know, this is who the church is and the vision and the, and this is how these gifts
Michele Dyer: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Fold into this.
Michele Dyer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And a lot of times with gifts, it doesn't necessarily, uh. Have to be done one particular way.
Michele Dyer: Right.
Mike Glenn: You know, there's a lot of ways to express that gift that will be just as satisfying.
Michele Dyer: Absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes it's redirecting and it's trying and, you know, [00:11:00] trial and error.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Michele Dyer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, now if I, if I am a church member,
Michele Dyer: yes.
Mike Glenn: My life's already nuts.
Michele Dyer: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Mm-hmm. I come to church.
Michele Dyer: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: I'm in a small group.
Michele Dyer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and now you're telling me. I, I gotta do a ministry.
Michele Dyer: I have to do extra.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah. That's right.
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: I'm already a quote. Good church member.
Michele Dyer: Right. Well, I'll say just to preface this, that we have to do this ministry open handedly. In other words, we have to recognize some of what we are going to be doing is helping people weed things off their plate.
Mike Glenn: Ah.
Michele Dyer: Sometimes it's a matter of helping people know the things that they should be saying no to.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michele Dyer: We all know that 20% of the people do 80% of the work.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michele Dyer: And so sometimes we have to help someone learn to say no and say yes to the things they're supposed to say yes to.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. My yes is big enough that I don't, I can't say yes to anything else.
Michele Dyer: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Right. So, um, so it's a little bit of all [00:12:00] those things, but um, it's really. A matter of enabling them just to do what they're called to do and, you know, passionate about. Mm-hmm. So, you know,
Mike Glenn: what's that process look like?
Michele Dyer: Well, it can look a lot of different ways and I think, um, to begin with, it needs to be as simple as possible.
Mm-hmm. So it can be as simple as asking every member to take a spiritual gifts assessment and then spending time with that member, whether it's yourself as the pastor, which at. Some level that becomes really, really difficult. Overwhelming, yeah. You've got to, you know, bring some others alongside of you mm-hmm.
Who are passionate, like I said, about helping people engage their gifts. And those can be coaches or, you know, mentors. Um, but it's, I find that one of the most important ingredients. Is that one-on-one conversation for that church member about their gifts. Mm-hmm. Some mentor, some coach sitting down with him saying, what's [00:13:00] God doing in your life?
How do you think God wants you to engage those gifts? So just keeping it really simple, but having some kind of intentional process in place to help that member begin to process the fact that God has called them. To do something.
Mike Glenn: Right. And and the reason you have to do it in a one-on-one conversation Mm.
Or, or a small group setting
Michele Dyer: mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Is that gifts are hard to to spot in yourself.
Michele Dyer: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Uh, if you're good at something, you think everybody's good at something. Right. You think everybody can see what you see.
Michele Dyer: Right. And you may not even recognize it as being anything special
Mike Glenn: until somebody points it out and says, Hey.
Michele Dyer: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: You need to pay attention to this.
Michele Dyer: Exactly. And so it is hard to recognize in yourself. It is hard for us to slow down long enough to think about what are my passions?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michele Dyer: What God, what might God be calling me to do?
Mike Glenn: Especially it's the first time you've had permission to ask yourself that question.
Right. A [00:14:00] lot of times our roles are assumed.
Michele Dyer: Right.
Mike Glenn: You know, you're here, so you gotta do this, you're here. 'cause and, and nobody sat down and said, Hey,
Michele Dyer: right.
Mike Glenn: Is this really what you want to do?
Michele Dyer: That's absolutely. Is this what
Mike Glenn: you're good at?
Michele Dyer: Exactly. Yeah. And I'm constantly amazed, even in our world, our secular world, which talks a lot about calling mm-hmm.
And about purpose, that people have that aha moment where they recognize they are a citizen of the kingdom. Mm-hmm. And that that entails responsibility and purpose of building the kingdom and. So that's unique to each person. And when that light bulb comes on, it's powerful.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Michele Dyer: In a conversation.
Mike Glenn: We've even had cha people change careers
Michele Dyer: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: Come coming at this. No wonder I hate this job.
Michele Dyer: I just Exactly. I myself felt I had some of those ahas. Yeah. And, and you know, recognized that this was over time, a calling to ministry. Mm-hmm. So. I just had a conversation with, uh, two of our global workers this past weekend [00:15:00] who took that membership class and they were both in secular jobs at that time.
Yeah. And God led them to the mission field and they've been on the mission field for the last 12 years. So, you know, it's, uh, it's pretty profound how it can really encourage people and make a difference.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Pastors were never intended to do. The work of the church?
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Okay. That's
Michele Dyer: Ephesians four
Mike Glenn: 11.
Most, most, most pastors are sitting on a goal mind. Of possibility and resources in the lives of their members.
Michele Dyer: Right.
Mike Glenn: Your members will be happier, more fulfilled, better church members?
Michele Dyer: Yes.
Mike Glenn: If they're engaged.
Michele Dyer: Much more engaged,
Mike Glenn: yes. Uh, with that? Mm-hmm. Okay. What do you do first?
Michele Dyer: Well, in my personal opinion, um.
It is one of the easiest, uh, it's the lowest hanging fruit to add something to your membership process.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Michele Dyer: Because you've got a captive audience. You have newcomers who are coming into your [00:16:00] church. You spend time in that new member's class talking about the, the priesthood of the believer. Mm-hmm. That every member is a minister.
Mm-hmm. We are all called. We want you to figure out what your calling to ministry is. And then use a tool, like a spiritual gifts assessment, uh, place is a fantastic, um, all in one package mm-hmm. Tool that you can use.
Mike Glenn: And we've used that for several years at Brentwood Baptist.
Michele Dyer: Yes, we did. We used it for years.
Mm-hmm. And it's very successful. Um, and they have great training to be able to train and equip a team in your church who works to carry out that ministry, to help people figure out how to engage in service in ministry. So, so that really can be the best starting point and keep it simple.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Michele Dyer: You know,
Mike Glenn: and the last part, celebrate.
Michele Dyer: Celebrate.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. When people do well.
Michele Dyer: Tell the stories.
Mike Glenn: Tell the stories, and, uh, and, and recognize when people are, are making a difference with the kingdom of God. [00:17:00]
Michele Dyer: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: That will and then encourage more and more stories.
Michele Dyer: I think more than anything else. Those stories have a way of inspiring other people too.
Yeah. Find and engage their own calling. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: This is Michelle Dyer and she is one of the best at helping people find what they're good at. Uh, I'm Mike Glenn and this is the Engaged Church Network, and we're glad to stop by.
