Navigating Social Media as a Pastor feat. Darrel Girardier
Join Pastor Mike Glenn and Darrel Girardier, the Communications Director at Brentwood Baptist Church, as they dive into a thoughtful discussion on the pros and cons of pastors navigating the world of social media. In this insightful conversation, they explore the challenges and opportunities that come with maintaining an online presence, balancing authenticity with privacy, and using social platforms to reach and engage with the congregation. Whether you’re a pastor, church leader, or simply interested in the intersection of faith and technology, this interview offers valuable perspectives on how to effectively and responsibly manage social media in a ministry context. Don’t miss this engaging discussion that sheds light on the digital dilemmas facing today’s pastors.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, my name's Mike Glenn, and I am the president of the Engaged Church Network, and we're here with my friend Darryl Giraudiere, who is joining us to talk about pastors and social media. Now, my buddy here has been, uh, with communications all of his life in some form or fashion. Mm-hmm. But recently, the last several years, you've been on staff for Brentwood Baptist Church, where he and I worked together for a bunch of years, and this man became my guru, teacher, mentor about all things nerd, uh, social media, gadgets, when to buy what.
So I, "Hey, do I, do I buy a new phone? No, wait, they're coming out with another one." This was the guy that always gave me that kind of information. One of the things he did was to teach me about social media. Now, I'm an old dog. To me, social media is a complete waste of time. I wouldn't be on social media. I, I don't enjoy it.
But [00:01:00] according to this guy, I had to be on it because that's where the conversations were happening. So since he taught me so much, I thought I would have him come by and teach you some of what he taught me. So first of all, thanks for being here.
Darrel Girardier: Thank you for
Mike Glenn: having me. I'm glad you're here.
Darrel Girardier: I'm glad to be here.
Mike Glenn: Now, explain to me, let's not assume anything. Yeah. Explain to me what social media is.
Darrel Girardier: I think if you were gonna boil social media down, essentially think of it like it's the world's largest free ad platform. Essentially, that's what it is in terms of it's the, uh, the biggest broadcap plat- broadcast platform by which you can get your message out.
At the same time, there's another layer of it, which is it's really about social interactions between people. I mean, it was really designed, at the end of the day, if you've watched the movie The Social Network or any, read any of the books about Twitter or Facebook starting out, it was really designed to be a connecting with other people.
That's what it's really designed. But it's kind of morphed, and it's kind of morphed into two lanes. Mm-hmm. And this is where I think people coming into social media for the first [00:02:00] time can often get confused. There are really two lanes of social media. There is what we call the social part, we call it the social graph, which is basically I like content because my friend liked it and they shared it with me, back and forth, okay?
Then the way, what we have, what we call the interest graph, and that is I'm really passionate about this thing, so I'm gonna make content about it, I'm gonna follow it. So for you, Alabama Crimson Tide football. That is your- Sure ... that is your interest graph. Mm-hmm. But you're gonna share pictures of your grandkids.
Mm-hmm. All right? And other family members are gonna like that. So social media plays in both of those courts.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: So when you think of it, it's a platform by which you can dive into your interests, and then you can dive in to sharing what's going on in your life, if that's something you feel necessary to do.
It's really just a manifestation of the web as it's grown from, as back in the day when you had bulletin boards where you'd share about Alabama- Right. Mm-hmm ... Crimson football, or when you used to email, uh, photos to family members. It's just another layer [00:03:00] as the web has grown.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. And as a pastor-
Darrel Girardier: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: most of my conre- no All of my congregation- Yes ... in some form or fashion- Yes ... uh, is involved in some- Mm-hmm ... aspect of social media. So a good way to talk to my congregation, talk to the community that is that first concentric circle outside my congregation, is through social media.
Darrel Girardier: Yes. Without a doubt. So if I was a, if I was a pastor, and I'm going, "Where do I start?
What do I do?" Again, going back to that, let's go back to the interest and let's go back to that social. If I was looking at the social and go, "Okay, how do I do that and do that well?" I think what I would look at doing is saying, "Okay, I'm gonna find every single one of my people who are on Instagram, okay?
And I'm gonna make a list, and what I'm gonna do is, is I'm gonna go just periodically set a thing, like maybe once a day for 30 minutes, and I'm gonna go through and just check their profiles, see how they're doing, comment on life, how are things going," because they're giving me a [00:04:00] tremendous amount of information about what's going on in their life.
Graduations, births, deaths, you name it. I
Mike Glenn: got a new job.
Darrel Girardier: I got a new job. I got a new this, that. And your ability now to go in and just say, "Congrats, I love that," or, "Hey, I saw that. I know you're hurting. Hey, bet you got questions. Let's grab coffee," that didn't exist 20 years ago. Mm-hmm. Now it does. So from that aspect, I think without a shadow of a doubt, there's a huge, um, way of doing that, uh, that in terms of like, in terms of the, uh, multiplying effect of that.
Mike Glenn: Now, now, just- Yeah ... hanging with that moment. Yeah. Th- One, one of the ways that it has changed just in my short career with social media, it has gone from being surprised you saw that, "Oh, I didn't know that you saw that"-
Darrel Girardier: Right ...
Mike Glenn: to it being an expectation that you should have seen it.
Darrel Girardier: Right, and that's... And you're, you're exactly right.
What you have to do, there's... So you're, you're exactly right. We used to call it, well, we call it FOMO.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. The,
Darrel Girardier: the fear of missing out.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: Um, but what we're learning is, as you, you and I both know, because we've had long conversations about [00:05:00] this, is that that is obviously unhealthy, and over time, that can wear, wear on your soul and wear you down.
Mm-hmm. So you have to be, you have to be really comfortable with the idea you can't see it all.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: You can't catch it all. And they may be disappointed, but that's okay.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: Because you're gonna do something that social media can't do, which is when that person is in the hospital and things are going south real fast and they're calling you in to have that- Mm-hmm
conversation with the family, we can't do that on social.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Darrel Girardier: You're gonna be at the bedside with the family. Mm-hmm. There's that aspect of it. You're, you're right, there is an expectation put on you but you've gotta be okay with, with defying that expectation as much as you can. Mm-hmm. On the interest graph side, you go to the interest side.
So you're talking about the social side, then the interest side. Well, now you have this thing where you, if, if I was in a pastor's shoes, I would draw a simple five mile radius around my church and I'd find every single local business, every institution, and I'd find their social media channels. And I would say, "What are they talking about?
What are they putting out?" Because then all of a sudden is, is I can now get a [00:06:00] sense of not just what are my people, what's going on with my people, I can get a sense of what's going on in my community. Mm-hmm. And what are the conversations that are occurring. Mm-hmm. And now all of a sudden I can give my two cents into those conversations as it pertains to my church.
Mm-hmm. So you now can run both plays at the same time.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And that also feeds in your sermon preparation.
Darrel Girardier: Exactly.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Hear, hear the stories I'm hearing and hear the conversations I'm seeing.
Darrel Girardier: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. At the same time, the beauty of a sermon, and this is why I think pastors actually have an advantage from a content creation perspective- Oh,
Mike Glenn: do tell
Darrel Girardier: than everybody else. Well, okay, so every pastor's different in terms of how long they prepare for a sermon. Right. But let's say it's 20 hours a week. All right? You spend 20 hours a week on something. At a lot of churches, you're doing one service. Mm-hmm. Maybe two. You preach it twice. It never sees the light of day ever again.
That's crazy No, no That's crazy. It's never ... And, you know, somebody said, "Oh, I remember that sermon you preached a while back." That, that's it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: That's absolutely insane. So why in [00:07:00] the world would you not get a video copy, a audio copy of that sermon, turn around and use that to fuel your content for your social media?
It's absolutely crazy that you would not do that.
Mike Glenn: So you would take one or two minute snapshots- Yes ... or,
Darrel Girardier: or
Mike Glenn: video
Darrel Girardier: clips. And so, e- exactly. Now, when we say that, a lot of pastors probably think, and rightfully so, they're thinking, "Well, who's gonna do that?" Mm-hmm. Because at a lot of churches, it's me, maybe a part-time AA, and maybe a, a, a worship minister who's also a slash student minister.
Right. Yeah. That's most churches.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: I get that. And I would've told you 10 to 15 years ago, you're exactly right, and there's not much you can do about it other than hire an intern. Mm-hmm. But with artificial intelligence and with a lot of the tools online, you can actually have all this automated. So I can say, personally speaking, when we work with your sermons now, or when we did work with your sermons, I was able to help take your sermon, upload it to a website.
It would review the entire sermon. It would tell me, "Here are the 10 to 15 viral clips we think are [00:08:00] from this sermon." It would actually put the captions, the words down at the bottom of the video, and it would turn around and create the hashtags for me, write the descriptions, and all I had to do was download the clips.
Mike Glenn: All this time I thought you were
Darrel Girardier: brilliant. Yeah, that's, that- That's, that's what we do. We make you think that. But, like, those tools exist. You just do a simple Google search for that, and you can go, "Wait, time out." It doesn't require an army of people.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Darrel Girardier: We can actually do this in a short amount of time.
So I just think pastors should be taking those things, leverage it, and by the way, not just video and social media, whether that's Instagram, TikTok, whatever you're, wherever you're going with that. You should take that content, have it reworked into your newsletters, into your tweets, to ... There's a lot of stuff.
There's a lot of things that in that sermon- Mm-hmm ... we can pull from. On top of that, and you and I have talked about this, is there's a lot of things that you cut out that are on the floor- Yeah, yeah ... from your sermon.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: You've mastered the art of the, you know, the 25-minute sermon, but you and I both know you could've gone 45, 50 if you wanted to.
Yeah. And there's all that stuff that you [00:09:00] could've then turned around and said, "Oh, by the way, read this book for background on, say, uh, Joshua. Re- you know, watch this video, do this, read this article." All that content is good as well. To be given to your audience
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And all of that-
Darrel Girardier: All that feeds in ...
Mike Glenn: is, is social media stuff.
Yeah,
Darrel Girardier: all that feeds in.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Now, you know that I have a healthy fear of social media.
Darrel Girardier: Yes.
Mike Glenn: It can, it can be, uh, misused and abused. Yes. One, talk to, talk to, uh, let, let's talk just a little bit about all these guys that wanna argue all the time- Mm-hmm ... on social media.
Darrel Girardier: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and just name an argument, na- name an issue- Oh, yeah
and, and they wanna, they wanna debate it or argue with you or point out four or five things that you did wrong in the last, uh, sermon or whatever.
Darrel Girardier: Yeah. Well, first off, Proverbs is pretty clear about we don't argue with fools. Okay? So, so there's step one. That's what it is. Um, so you have that. So what I would tell you is, [00:10:00] is when you're dealing with an altercation online, so in other words, somebody doesn't like something you've done, they made a comment, they're writing a post about you.
If you know that person, well, guess what? Now you can take that conversation offline. Pick up the phone- Mm-hmm ... call the person, move it offline. If you don't know them, but you're thinking, "Hey, they may be local," hey, reach out and say, "Hey, I'd love to talk to you about this online. I'd love to kinda unpack- Mm-hmm
where I think there are misconceptions. Maybe we can find some common ground." If they wanna have that conversation, fantastic. If they don't, delete it and move on. In other words, you can't move on. They're not
Mike Glenn: serious. Yeah.
Darrel Girardier: Yeah. You gotta remember, like, think of it like the information is flowing so fast, you can't keep up with all the negativity.
You really can't. So you just have to let 95% of it just go. Mm-hmm. Just let it go. And yeah, you go, "Okay, what happens if something goes viral or a hashtag or something about us?" Yeah, guess what? In about four or five days, there'll be something else that happens. Right. Or less than that, 24, 48 hours. Mm-hmm. Uh, so [00:11:00] you just, it's okay, move on.
You, you just simply do not have the mental- Or I think even spiritual energy for that matter to deal with that on a daily basis. Right. Nobody should. So, so you ... When I've always, what I've always coached you on was, and I stole, I stole this from, uh, Cal Newport, who wrote, uh, books like Deep Work- Right ... So Good They Can't Ignore You, was treat social media like a professional.
In other words, you go in, I'm gonna spend 10 to 15 minutes on it, and then I'm done for the day. I'm getting out.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Darrel Girardier: Don't s- I don't, don't have the apps on your phone. No,
Mike Glenn: yeah, we're not gonna scroll a
Darrel Girardier: whole bunch. You're not gonna s- don't, we don't dooms- doom scroll. Get that off your phone. That's not...
The healthy way to do it is, is find some tools you can do on your desktop because you don't have that open 24/7 on your laptop. Right. Do the things you need to do or have your assistant do the things you need to do, and then get off.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: And be with real people in the real world.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: That's what, that's what you should do.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Now, what are some of the warnings that you would give a pastor in dealing with [00:12:00] social media? Um, so- some of the things to, to... Some of the minefields that, um-
Darrel Girardier: Yeah. So I would say minefields are this. I would say I approach it, again, going back to that professional mindset of is I personally don't think...
I would not post personal stuff online. Okay. I wouldn't post about your family. I really wouldn't. I wouldn't post about, um, your kids. I wouldn't post about... I, I know that there's an authenticity thing. People say, "Well, you're being authentic," and I get that to a certain degree. But the reality of it is the people you really want to be authentic with is your tribe, your small group, your, your mentors.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: Whoever you're walking with, your, your Paul, your Timothy, your Barnabas.
Mike Glenn: Right,
Darrel Girardier: right. That's who you be that person.
Mike Glenn: A- a- y- and you don't need social media for that.
Darrel Girardier: You don't.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Darrel Girardier: You don't My, I think when you do that, you may get the sense of satisfaction from it, or you may get the sense of like, um, you're being real with people.
But I think at the end of the day, I think you're causing more harm, because I think you're setting yourself [00:13:00] up for, um, what could be failure down the road. I think that I, I would war- I would warn you against that. Two, I would warn you against- So
Mike Glenn: let, let, let's hold on Yeah You, you mentioned earlier the county point, treat it like a professional.
Darrel Girardier: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So I don't overshare about my personal life in the office, period.
Darrel Girardier: No.
Mike Glenn: Uh, so don't do that on social media either.
Darrel Girardier: I wouldn't.
Mike Glenn: Treat it like a professional.
Darrel Girardier: Treat it like, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Darrel Girardier: Treat it like you get in front of your congregation. Right. What would you say in front of your congregation? Mm-hmm. If you'd say that in front of your congregation, then you're, then you're, then you're good to go.
That's what I would do.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Darrel Girardier: Um, I think the other aspect of it is that, uh, as a professional, um, talk about the things that you are an expert in.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Darrel Girardier: Don't wade into waters that are not your domain of expertise.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: Okay, so we have an election coming up. I don't think you should weigh in on Biden versus Trump.
I really don't. You shouldn't. But
Mike Glenn: I have some real strong
Darrel Girardier: opinions on that. I know, I know. And so your [00:14:00] congregation does. You and I learned, you and I learned that as we were like, "Oh, okay." Okay. "People think that." Here we go. "Okay." Uh-
Mike Glenn: Yeah, I still have that COVID scar.
Darrel Girardier: G- yes, yes. Yeah. You and I both do. Yeah. I mean, I remember opening up Facebook and being like, "Oh, you think this."
Mm. Yeah. "Okay, that's, that's good to know." And I just think, like, stay out of things. Now, I, there's, issues are different. I think issues are different, because as, as you can speak fr- to them from a biblical perspective, that's, I think that's great. Yeah. You go down the list. But there's some issues that the Bible, A, may not be clear about, B, you may not be an expert in, stay away from those waters.
Mm-hmm. It's tempting to go into those waters, because you may f- even feel pressure from your people to do that.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Darrel Girardier: Um, I've seen our people ask you or ask, uh, Jay Strother to speak about issues that both of you would sit, look at me and say, "I'm not, I'm not an expert in that thing." Right. So don't do that.
It's tempting. A lot of pastors do this because it's really good, what we call clickbait. So for those of you who know what clickbait [00:15:00] is, it's simply put, it's a way to get, to, to gamify the audience by offering something that's not really there, you know? And so what you do is you go to a hot topic issue, you give your hot take.
Mm-hmm. But the reality of it is, is there's not really anything there. And so I would say you should avoid that at all costs.
Mike Glenn: Because in doing so, you decrease the credibility of your voice.
Darrel Girardier: You do, and it's not... Again, like, people... My question for y- for a pastor is why do you want people to come and follow you on social media?
My hope is, is that you're wanting to do that because you know if you can in some way connect with that person, if your church can connect with that person, that that will lead that person to a small group, the worship service, whatever your entry points are into your congregation, and then hopefully the disciple-making process takes hold because somebody has a conversation with them.
I hope that's your aim. If your aim is to gain [00:16:00] followers... In fact, I would tell you, by the way, pastors, don't look at the follower count. Ignore it completely. Don't ever look at who's following you and who's not following you. Don't, 'cause the number doesn't matter I would, now I would, I would look at is, I would look at how the content's performing.
Mm-hmm. How are people reacting to the content? Mm-hmm. See, that can inform your sermon. Right. So if you, if you sit there and you say, okay, you take those sermon clips, you put them online, it may not inform what you say, it may inform how you say it. So- Give me an
Mike Glenn: example ...
Darrel Girardier: so one of the things that, so where I will tell you, audience, where I was spoiled, I was spoiled by having this man as my senior pastor for social media, because you were so good at letting moments breathe.
So you could actually, you'd preach, you'd say this thing, and then you'd hold the beat for one, two, three- ... and then you'd go on to the next thing. So it was so good that I could actually, I could edit your social media clips without listening to the audio. I could just watch you visually on stage. Go, whatever you said right there to right [00:17:00] there-
that's the clip. We're gonna go with that clip. And then we, and then we'd joke, and then we'd actually listen to the audio and go, "Yeah, that's what he said." But what it can show you is, is you know what? People really respond when I do this versus this- Right ... when I say this versus that- Mm-hmm ... in terms of how I say it.
In other words, why did that clip work? Well, one, I had a strong intro. I had a strong hook to pull them in- Right ... to get them in the moment. One, my voice, I did modulation with my voice by which I raised it up, then I brought it down. Right. I sped it up and I slowed it down. Those, those things that for s- communication you're not taught in seminary about.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Darrel Girardier: Preaching class is like, did you get the text accurate? Right, right, yeah. Did you say the thing the text actually said? Communication, as you and I both know, is a different art form. Mm-hmm. And social media, you can sit there and you can watch those clips and go, "Oh, wow, people really reacted to that. I wonder why."
Then you read the comments, you go, "Oh, that's really good to know." Yeah. So when I preach- Or,
Mike Glenn: or, "I thought this was a great point, and
Darrel Girardier: nobody-" Nobody, nobody reacted to it. Nobody got
Mike Glenn: it, yeah.
Darrel Girardier: Because, you know, y- the other thing about [00:18:00] social media that's, I think, really important is feedback loops for pastors are very scarce.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: You don't typically- Right ... hear when you've done a great job. And the view, and our joke is that we often think, you walk off stage and you go, "Man, I really crushed it," and then- Mm-hmm ... you get nothing. Nothing. And then you walk off and kind of go, "That was a warmed-over leftover sermon." Oh, yeah. And people come back going- "It changed my life."
That was the, that was the- "It changed my life." ... that was the best thing. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I'm going into the ministry because of that sermon. Yeah, yeah. You're like, "Really?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Darrel Girardier: Social media can kinda give you a sense of, um, a re- maybe a little bit of a reality check to what people- Mm-hmm ... are actually seeing about your sermons.
Mike Glenn: Okay. So to recap.
Darrel Girardier: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, social media is the new reality.
Darrel Girardier: Yep.
Mike Glenn: And that if you're gonna be a effective leader of your congregation and an effective communicator in your congregation, social media is gonna be one of the avenues you do. Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: Agree.
Mike Glenn: There are tools available So that it is not overwhelming to a pastor of any size church [00:19:00] or, or any skill level.
Darrel Girardier: Exactly,
Mike Glenn: yes. Except maybe me. You would still panic if, uh, if, if I got near, near the knobs, right?
Darrel Girardier: Correct.
Mike Glenn: You're not allowed. Okay, okay. Just-
Darrel Girardier: No, no you're not. You're
Mike Glenn: not ... yeah, don't, don't, don't touch anything. No. Uh, but, uh, but we still need to be careful.
Darrel Girardier: Yeah, I think a- again- Um ... I think you have to be careful.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: You've gotta be careful, but you ha- you have to be careful with any platform- Any,
Mike Glenn: anything ...
Darrel Girardier: anything that you're o- a- anything you're on, for that matter. Uh- Keep it, some, in some ways, a part of it is, is a little bit of, it's, it's a lack of what I would say repet- repetition. Right. And here's what I mean by that.
Um, you know, there are things in life that you've learned because you've done it o- over again, and again, and again, and again. And yeah, the first time you did it, it was pretty bad, it was scary. Mm-hmm. All right? Second, third time, it was still scary. And maybe 90 days in, 90 days into it, it's still scary. But all of a sudden, like six months into it, if you build that re- build, you get enough reps in-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Darrel Girardier: all of a sudden it's not nearly... And then you start going, "Okay, I should [00:20:00] never do that. I should definitely do that." Mm-hmm. And so I think without a shadow of a doubt, part of the issue is, is people don't have enough reps, so they don't really know what to do because they haven't put the time, and effort, and energy in.
Right. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay. But it's the new reality. It is the new reality. So it's another skill. If, if when I left seminary in 1981, you know, right after the invention of the light bulb- Right ... and, uh, and so something like that , if you had come to me and said, "Hey, you're gonna have to be able to tell the gospel in 140 characters, 280 characters, and you're gonna have a whole staff of people that I lovingly call the nerds-
Darrel Girardier: Yeah
Mike Glenn: who do nothing but website, social media, video, all of that," uh, I, I wouldn't have known h- how to do that, or how to explain that to, to anybody, m- or understand it, but that's the reality of, of church in-
Darrel Girardier: It is ...
Mike Glenn: in our modern time.
Darrel Girardier: It is, and here's another way to look at it. [00:21:00] I want pastors to think of it like this.
We tend to think in very short increments because the, the, the social media works this way in terms of I throw something up, within 24 hours it's gone. Right. You moved on to the next thing. But I want you to think of it as a long game, because that reps that you're building is gonna help you down the road, um, as things change and things pivot, one.
Two, YouTube, for example, if you put the time and effort into putting your content on YouTube, think of YouTube less like a social media platform, think of it like a search engine. And all of a sudden, if you now have gone every, you know, 52 videos- Mm-hmm ... once a week, over time, 250 videos, you start doing that math.
When people are asking questions about, which Bible translation should I trust-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Darrel Girardier: the chance of them hitting your video gr-
Mike Glenn: go- Have
Darrel Girardier: increased 250 times ... Yeah, yeah. Right. It goes up.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrel Girardier: Why would you not wanna do that? So people tend to think of it, like, in the short game. I want them thinking five, 10, 15 years out.
I want them thinking the long game- Right, right ... on it as [00:22:00] well.
Mike Glenn: And most of us are thinking five or 10 minutes out.
Darrel Girardier: That's all we're thinking. Right. We're thinking just that, that brief moment in time.
Mike Glenn: Okay. All right. Great point. How do people reach you?
Darrel Girardier: Uh, you can reach me on Instagram. Um, I'm @gerardiA or LinkedIn.
Um, those are probably the two probably best places to reach me. Um, you can find me there. DM me if you got questions.
Mike Glenn: Okay. All right, and you will. This guy's one of the best, and I have loved working with him and love considering him, uh, a good friend, and continues to be my teacher. Thanks, Daryl, for being here.
Darrel Girardier: Thanks for
Mike Glenn: having me. All right. This is the Engaged Church Network. I'm Mike Glenn. Thanks for stopping by.
