Lessons on Leadership: What the Marine Corps & Chick-fil-A Teach Church Leaders
In this episode of the Engaged Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with Bill Pfaender—Marine Corps veteran and Chick-fil-A operator—to discuss the universal principles of leadership. Bill shares the importance of humility, empowering others, and why pastors must focus on their calling while developing leaders within their congregations. Discover how letting go of micromanagement and trusting others can lead to healthier churches and thriving communities.
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Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I am the president of The Engaged Church Network, and we're glad that you joined us for our podcast today. Joining us today is a friend of mine, a guy by the name of Bill Fender, and first of all, let me explain this has nothing to do with a guitar. In fact, it's not even spelled the same way.
Too bad. Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's kind of disappointing, I know, so I just wanted to get that out. Uh, Bill, uh, grew up in Florida, educated in Florida, started in the restaurant business, then joined the Marines, and retired after 20 years as a major. So Major, thank you for your service.
Bill Pfaender: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, grateful for, for you and all of those men and women who serve in our armed forces stateside and around the world.
And, uh, w- after the retirement from, um, the Marine Corps, started to work with Chick-fil-A and now, um, runs a couple of local Chick-fil-A's not too far from this office, that we're very, very glad, uh, [00:01:00] that we have the inside at Chick-fil-A. And we do take advantage of that from time to time. But here's why I wanted to talk to Bill today.
Bill has been part of two institutions, uh, the Marine Corps and Chick-fil-A, that both pride themselves on the development of leadership and are known outside of their own entities as being a place where leaders are developed. One of the core challenges of local pastors is identifying and training leaders in their local congregation.
Too many pastors think they have to do it themselves. They burn out. They end up doing poorly at something they're not any good at doing, and they think that identifying that leader and training that leader would take way too much time and all that, and, but you and I know it ends up saving time-
Bill Pfaender: True, yep
Mike Glenn: on the other side. So imagine that we're sitting here talking with a group of pastors. What would you want to tell them [00:02:00] about the development of leaders and the importance of that?
Bill Pfaender: Good question. Um, I, I, I would say number one, that it doesn't matter if you're a pastor, doesn't matter if you're in the Marine Corps.
It really doesn't matter what you're trying to lead or what you're trying to influence. Um, leadership across the board is pretty much the same no matter where you are.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um, and, and I don't think pastors should put the pressure on themselves thinking they're unique, and they can learn from a lot of different folks- Right
um, about the pure essence of leadership 'cause it really is basically the same no matter where you are. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I know when I was a young lieutenant just out of the basic school in the Marine Corps trying to figure out what leadership was all about and what, uh, leading and being led was all about, um, it was very interesting that most of us were [00:03:00] unwilling to listen to the folks that had been around for a while that knew what they were doing.
Mm-hmm. Um, we thought we were the end all and the savior of whatever to- ... that we were pretty full of ourselves coming out- Yeah. ... as a young marine. The Marine
Mike Glenn: Corps is
Bill Pfaender: like that, huh? Yeah. And, um, we, we can make all the decisions, and we knew everything. Uh, I think the first thing we need to admit when we're, when we get into a position of pastorate where you're in charge- Mm-hmm
of a church, or if you're in business in charge of something, uh, is the fact that you don't know everything. Uh, humility, I guess, is probably one of the biggest things that quite frankly I, I had to learn in the early days- Mm-hmm ... was understanding that I didn't know everything, that some of these, uh, enlisted guys that had been doing this for 15, 20 years-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Bill Pfaender: knew a lot more than I did. And maybe it was my decision, but I had to listen to a lot of people and weigh a lot of information [00:04:00] and try to make a decision the best I could.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um, I, I think it starts there, humility. Uh, you have to know that you're not always the guy that knows everything, uh, no matter what you're responsible for.
Uh, so I guess it starts there.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: Um, and in my experience of being around the world a few times and, and being in a lot of churches, um, I can't even count how many churches we actually attended, some for a long time, some for maybe just a few months as we passed through on duty stations. Mm-hmm. Um, I didn't find that quality in a lot of preachers.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Uh, humility. They thought it was their church, it was their way of thinking, it was their plan, it was, uh, their ideas, and if you didn't like it-
Mike Glenn: Yeah, the, "Oh, God told me, I'm telling you" thing. Yeah ... you know,
Bill Pfaender: it, it's just too bad. Yeah. That's the way it is. Um- And probably some of the most disappointing experiences I've had in churches is because people, uh, pastors wouldn't listen to their elders.
Right. Wouldn't [00:05:00] listen to their deacons, wouldn't listen to whatever that command structure is in a church. Mm-hmm. Whatever you might have, they didn't listen. Um, and, and in some cases they failed.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: The church failed. Uh, very disappointing and very heartbreaking in certain circumstances. But the m- probably the most enjoyable experiences I've had is when the pastors and the leadership of the church did listen to the congregation, did listen to people that knew what they were talking about.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: And it was one big happy family, and we all worked together to make things work. Right. And, and
Mike Glenn: everybody had their own-
Bill Pfaender: I mean, somebody has to be the decision-maker. Right. And maybe somebody has to be the final judgment.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: But they listened. Um, so I guess that's where I would start, with humility.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um.
Mike Glenn: Um, one of the, the turning points in my own ministry was when I had a couple of friends come to me and go, "We can take this off of you."
Bill Pfaender: True.
Mike Glenn: You know, "You're, you're not any good at it." [00:06:00] "You don't like it. Uh, we can take this off of you, and you can do what you love to do," which was the preaching, the teaching, the study of scripture, and all of that.
Uh, the, the administration of the church-
Bill Pfaender: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: I, I didn't enjoy. I can do it, but-
Bill Pfaender: But it's a time, it takes your time.
Mike Glenn: It takes your time. It takes- It takes your energy, and there are people who thrive off- Right ... of doing that. I, I told people, I said, "You know, uh, uh, you know, the turning point for me was when I would see, uh, my CPAs and my accountants look at a spreadsheet with all the dots, and everything's beautiful and in line," and they would have tears in their eyes.
This was such, this was such a work of art to them. Um- And you're going, "
Bill Pfaender: Man,
Mike Glenn: I'm the only one-" Yeah, yeah. "... who's..." I, I don't need any of this. Yeah. Just tell me yes or no. But how does, how does a pastor, and, uh, and since m- most of our friends watching will be pastors of local churches, how do they start this transition from it, from it being all about them [00:07:00] to identifying and developing those people who would be able to share leadership in the congregation?
What are you looking for?
Bill Pfaender: I w- I, I would say that, uh- Again, they, they need to be willing to look.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: They need to be willing to understand that your gift may not be across the board-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Bill Pfaender: in all things. Mm-hmm. And you mentioned that- Well, it
Mike Glenn: may not. It, it is not.
Bill Pfaender: It's not. It just doesn't. It's definitely not.
Uh, most ... And you hope that most pastors', uh, real gift is preaching the Word, connecting with people, doing that part in, in ministering to people. Um, it, it's not much different than, you know, my time with Chick-fil-A. Um, you know, it's not all of our g- gift to do this administration stuff, and even the management part of the thing.
Um, you weren't hired to be a manager. A, a- and a pastor really wasn't hired to be a [00:08:00] manager of a church.
Mike Glenn: Right,
Bill Pfaender: right. He was there hired to be a preacher, to deal with the people, much like a Chick-fil-A operator. Mm-hmm. Uh, most of everything that goes into management of, of our restaurants is done at the corporate level, and they, they give it to us.
Mm-hmm. It's a very simple process. They hired me to be the people person. Hire people, train people, raise people up, and let them help run the business. And I think pastors in particular, um, n- need to be willing to let go of those management functions, of those, so to speak, deacon responsibilities- Right
maybe even elder responsibilities, and focus on what they've been hired to do.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: And that's to lead people.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Teach people, preach the Word, um, minister to people. Uh, but it's all about the people. You know, one of the favorite sayings we have at Chick-fil-A is, "We're not really in the food business, [00:09:00] we're in the people business."
Mike Glenn: Right. '
Bill Pfaender: Cause at the end of the day, you're, you're trying to You, you, you're trying to create an experience for people. The food has to be good, it has to be a clean restaurant, it has to be nice people, but you're trying to create an experience.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: And I think that's something that sometimes churches go a little too far trying to create that experience.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: A- and you get into more of a showcase. But, uh, you know, the experience has to be there. People have to understand what they're getting into-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ... a- and,
Bill Pfaender: and how they're treated. And sometimes only the pastor can do that.
Mike Glenn: Right. Now, um, one of the, uh, the interesting things that, that happened for me, I'm sure it happens for you, is sometimes our, our, our most fun and sometimes our best success is when the people around us are successful.
Bill Pfaender: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: When you see the, the, the young kid who showed [00:10:00] up at 15 or 16, got their first job, and now they're ready to, to take on a, a leadership role- Mm-hmm ... with the team, and they do it, and they thrive, and the team thrives. You're
Bill Pfaender: right. Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: That's the, that's the best part of the, of the, of the day is watching their success.
Bill Pfaender: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: And I, and I do think a lot of times pastors do forget that we are in the people business, in that it is our privilege to walk along someone to help them discover and thrive who they are in Christ, and then blossom in all- Yeah ... in, in, in, into all the, the, the things.
Bill Pfaender: And it gives them the opportunity.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Sometimes we, we squelch that opportunity. Mm-hmm. We think we can do it better ourself or we... And like you said before, you can't do everything correctly.
Mike Glenn: No.
Bill Pfaender: You can't do everything well. You can do a few things well, things you're gifted at doing. Mm-hmm. A- and you gotta be willing to give the rest away.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: It's that willingness-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Bill Pfaender: to give it away.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: A- a- and have that ability to [00:11:00] trust people.
Mike Glenn: Well, and, and in trust that, that God knew what he was doing when he pulled that group of people together. That's
Bill Pfaender: true.
Mike Glenn: So there's gonna be different gifts among the body-
Bill Pfaender: True ...
Mike Glenn: so that the body working together glorifies God-
Bill Pfaender: Absolutely
Mike Glenn: in a way that, that they can't, uh, that, that no one person can by themselves. So tell me, uh, what are, what are those markers of a leader? If you're looking for someone, you're looking at a group of people, what are those markers that you're looking for?
Bill Pfaender: I mentioned the first one, humility. Mm-hmm. Uh, people that usually like to stick out and be recognized, and look at me kind of person don't always-
Mike Glenn: Right
Bill Pfaender: thrive 'cause it's constantly about them.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um, so I'm always looking for maybe the guy that doesn't talk as much, maybe the guy that, or the girl that doesn't stand out-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Bill Pfaender: as much, um, but is willing to work. Um, someone that shows initiative without being asked. [00:12:00] Somebody that is maybe even in the background doing stuff that most people don't even know it's getting done.
Mm-hmm. Uh, but they're willing to do it without the recognition most of the time that goes with it. Um- People that do a job, if you've asked them to do something, maybe they go the extra mile Maybe it falls in there with initiative but- Mm-hmm ... you know, Chick-fil-A is big on that going the extra mile.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: The verse in Matthew that talks about carrying that pack an extra mile. One more
Mike Glenn: time, yeah.
Bill Pfaender: Uh, i- it's fun to watch a 16-year-old or a 17-year-old kid. When you ask them to do something, do they do the bare minimum?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Or do they go that one step further, maybe even take it a little bit further and clean something different, you know, since they're on a roll doing something.
Mm-hmm. Uh, so you, you keep your eyes out for those kind of people that, number one, don't need the recognition, number two, take the initiative to, to go that extra mile. And then look for those people that are doing things [00:13:00] without even being asked.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Uh, they're, they're just, they're just doing things.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um, and I think that kind of initiative and that kind of quality of work stands out, that they can probably take on something a little bit, take on a little bit more responsibility.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. The, one of the things that I've learned to look for is look for who the church sees as leaders. I, I, I, I, I-
Bill Pfaender: And it becomes pretty obvious sometimes
Mike Glenn: uh, uh, yeah, a lot of times- Yeah ... the, who the church defers to, who- Right ... who the team already defers to. Uh, sometimes- And it be-
Bill Pfaender: and it becomes pretty obvious sometimes ...
Mike Glenn: yeah, sometimes those in the trenches know who th- know who the leader is a lot faster than we do.
Bill Pfaender: And when we need to embrace that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, right.
Bill Pfaender: Yeah, sometimes leaders get a little paranoid about that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: That maybe that general manager in my, my situation, that general manager or that team member's getting more attention maybe than I am.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Uh, and I think that that can cause, uh, again, the humbleness of your, [00:14:00] of your heart has to come through- Yeah
that you're willing to give away that recognition, that those people should get the recognition. They're doing most of the work.
Mike Glenn: Here, here, here's what I found out. The, um one, it is a kick in the teeth when, uh, uh, you know, we started the campuses and people started going and going, "Hey, Mike, we l- we, we like you a lot.
We love you, but man, we love..." And you just had, it was a totally different way that they said it- This guy ... about our campus pastor. And this was the guy that I chose, I trained, I did and stuff, and now-
Bill Pfaender: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: he's meeting a need in a way that I couldn't. And, uh, and, and never would. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not put together that way- Mm-hmm
not, not, not, not like he is. Nor do you have
Bill Pfaender: the time.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And so, uh, w- but I began to em- be able to embrace that, that that was my role.
Bill Pfaender: That's right.
Mike Glenn: That was my calling in that situation, [00:15:00] to develop another successful, gifted pastor. Yep. And, uh, and, and sometimes it's, it's not so much the, uh, uh, the ability to be recognized by anybody else as much as it is just knowing in yourself.
Bill Pfaender: Yeah. And it's not only, it's not only your your, your job to do that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: That's your responsibility. Right. That is your responsibility to raise up folks that can lead-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Bill Pfaender: the, the, the flock 'cause you can't do it all yourself.
Mike Glenn: No.
Bill Pfaender: And, and that was probably the hardest lesson I had to learn as an operator with Chick-fil-A.
Um, back in the early days when I had a mall store, you had 18 employees.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: I could do it all. At least me and my wife could do it all. We didn't have to- Yeah ... didn't have to ask for much help, didn't have to get anybody else involved. I made all the decisions, da, da, da, da, da. But as you moved into a standalone store and you got 150 employees, uh, it became pretty obvious pretty quick
Mike Glenn: that- Yeah, and 100 of 'em [00:16:00] w- w- working in the drive-through.
Bill Pfaender: Well, that, that's true. Uh- You know, those cars circling you- You can't do it all ... right. So you have to start looking for the people- Right ... you're talking about- Mm-hmm ... to help you do this thing. And then when you get two stores, i- it's al- it's impossible.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: And if you don't look at your leaders and let them do their job a- and trust them, empower them, follow up with them- Mm
true, that's part of leadership, too, is to follow up and give feedback. But-
Mike Glenn: And if you don't, you end up burning out. True. You end up burning out your stores.
Bill Pfaender: Yeah, and, and you will.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: Trust me, you will.
Mike Glenn: You'll burn out as a pastor. You
Bill Pfaender: will burn out so fast that-
Mike Glenn: And you'll burn up your church, too.
Bill Pfaender: Yep, absolutely.
Mike Glenn: What are, what are some of the things that we need to be mindful of, of, of, boy, here's one thing you don't wanna do? I tell wisdom, uh, w- I tell people wisdom means I screwed up before you did. That's all w- that's all wisdom is. Yeah. So what are those two or three key mistakes in identifying and training other leaders that, that you would want us to be, be mindful of?
Bill Pfaender: Uh, number [00:17:00] one is micromanagement.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: You've heard that probably 100 times, and I'm sure everybody's heard that But it's probably the hardest thing not to do-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Bill Pfaender: is to stick your nose back. When, when you, when you've trained somebody, you've empowered somebody, you've trusted them to do a job, and then you stick your nose back into it.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: And you say, "Uh, that's not the way I'd have done it," or-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Bill Pfaender: or, "I don't think that's the right way to do it," or- Mm-hmm ... um, you, you can't, you can't second-guess the people you've entrusted-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Bill Pfaender: to do it. Mm-hmm. They may not do it the same way you did it. They may not lead the same way you lead. They may not make decisions- But-
the same way you make decisions ... when you stick
Mike Glenn: your nose back in, you take the power back
Bill Pfaender: from 'em. But, but you totally usurp their authority. That's
Mike Glenn: right. Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um, you can't delegate responsibility, but you can give them the authority to make those decisions- Right ... and to do that job, and then they take that responsibility.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Um, and it's fun to watch.
Mike Glenn: Oh, isn't
Bill Pfaender: it? It, it, it's really fun to watch- It, it's the best part ... when the light bulb goes off and- Mm-hmm ... people realize, and they [00:18:00] have to realize, that they are empowered. They have to realize- Mm-hmm ... that, that they can do the job, that you've empowered them. And if you don't make it clear to them, you...
That's probably number... The second point is it has to be very clear.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: Clear and concise instructions, clear and concise, uh, uh, I guess responsibilities, even in writing- Right ... if you can do that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: Um-
Mike Glenn: Just because you said it doesn't mean you
Bill Pfaender: communicated it. Doesn't... Right. So when it comes time for your semi-annual review- Yeah
or your annual review, and you got it in writing, and you've-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Bill Pfaender: you've laid out the foundation of what you want from people, uh, you got something to deal with. "What about this? What about this? What about this?" And, yeah, and most people are very receptive to that if they know exactly what the expectations are.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: It, it's when that gray area shows up and they don't really understand that they got, you know... "Did you really mean what you said?"
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Uh, "Am I really empowered to make that decision?" Mm-hmm. "Do you want me to make that decision?" Uh, then people start [00:19:00] waffling.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: A- a- and then they refuse to make a decision 'cause they might get in trouble or something.
Right. Uh, um, and I guess that's probably the third thing, is when someone does mess up, like you just said, we've all messed up.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: And we're all gonna mess up again. Um, you hope that nobody suffers too much from those mistakes, but, uh, and you hope you don't make those same mistakes again, but we're human.
We're gonna make errors. We're gonna make lack of judgment. We're gonna- Mm-hmm ... do something wrong. You know, in our cases it may be as simple as a pickle or something on a sandwich, but- Right ... uh, in the Marine Corps, it was you make a mistake and bad things happen to people. Mm-hmm. Um, a- and you hope you don't make the...
But you gotta make a decision. Your people have got to know, you've got to know, that you gotta make a decision. That's what leaders do.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Leaders decide. The buck stops with them.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: And raising up a new leader, that's the scariest thing in the world, for a new leader to make a decision. Not maybe, not what if- Yeah
not, [00:20:00] you know, maybe tomorrow. Information's presented to you and make a decision. Right, wrong, indifferent, whatever, you made a decision and-
Mike Glenn: Well, both of us remember that moment when we realized that we were now adults and our dads weren't gonna come help us.
Bill Pfaender: That's true.
Mike Glenn: Oh, no.
Bill Pfaender: Oh,
Mike Glenn: really? That's right. Yeah.
So-
Bill Pfaender: And, and that, that was pretty scary- Yeah ... to walk, walk out of the basic school in the Marine Corps- Yeah ... and you're now a lieutenant in charge- Mm-hmm ... of all these people who have been in the Marine Corps for 15, 20 years- Yeah ... and you're the- And- ... you're the college graduate that's making the
Mike Glenn: decision
and, and, right, including, including you and all
Bill Pfaender: that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to make a decision that might- Mm-hmm ... cost somebody their life. Mm-hmm. And who are you-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Bill Pfaender: kind of thing. So if you're not willing to listen and learn pretty fast- Right ... uh, you're in big trouble.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Let's, uh, let's ramp up for our friends here.
I love, I love what, what we've been talking about. One, uh, the principles of leadership are universal.
Bill Pfaender: True.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: Same in the church, same in [00:21:00] the Marine Corps, same in Chick-fil-A.
Bill Pfaender: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: Essence of being a good leader and all of those would transfer. Um, a couple of keys that, that you've mentioned, humility, uh, realizing you can't do it all, weren't called to do it all- Do it all
weren't designed to do it all. The ability to listen and identify those people who can do the things that you're not good at, and developing the leadership skills in them to, to, to do that.
Bill Pfaender: Right.
Mike Glenn: Ah, you make it sound so easy. And
Bill Pfaender: then, and then, and then empower them to do it.
Mike Glenn: You're right.
Bill Pfaender: Give it away. And
Mike Glenn: release them and
Bill Pfaender: release them to do it.
Give it away.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: And let them do it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: And don't micromanage. Follow up when needs be. Give feedback when- Yeah ... and, and feedback is probably one of the most important parts of leadership.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Bill Pfaender: People have got to know how they're doing.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: You know, there's, a guy, a guy named Patrick Lencioni wrote a book on the three, three signs of a miserable job.
Number one was nobody even knows I'm here, [00:22:00] being anonymous.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: You got, you have to make that person part of the team. Number two is irrelevance. Those people have to know that they're doing something- Mm-hmm ... that's of value to the, to the system, to a church- Mm-hmm ... to a business, to whatever it is. They have to know that they're doing something that's important.
A- a- and the third thing is, um, they've got to understand what the measurement tool is. Right. They've got to know if they're doing a good job. Mm-hmm. They've got to know if what they did was right, wrong, made a difference in the organization, whatever. And- Mm-hmm ... and if e- even one of those pieces is not there, um, you're gonna have an unhappy team member- That's right
employee, deacon, elder. Uh- And that's
Mike Glenn: your responsibility as leader ...
Bill Pfaender: then it's your responsibility to make sure- Yeah ... that person is cared for, they know why they're there. Mm-hmm. They know it's important that they're there, and they know that they're doing a great job. Mm-hmm. Or maybe not they're doing, maybe they're [00:23:00] not doing a great job.
Mm-hmm. But they gotta know. But not knowing is very, very difficult for most people.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Bill Pfaender: Very difficult.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Bill Pfaender: And it will create-
Mike Glenn: Well, it, it's, uh, it's that affirmation that, that you're getting. You know, all, all kind of feedback systems, uh, you know, the traffic flow and, you know, the green light, red light, knowing you're doing- Right
right during. We have all kind- Yeah ... and then you get in your job, the most important part of your life in that moment, and you don't know. You're confused.
Bill Pfaender: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, the, the last thing that, that I wanna say to you pastors is you're afraid that if you give away authority, if you give away the job, uh, that somehow you're gonna lose something.
Here's been my experience. Uh, when our church members engaged in their ministry, other people would come back to the church and say, "Hey, I met so and so. I was in the hospital. Your deacons came to visit me." They would brag on that deacon. They would brag on, uh, the, the ministry person, and then they would say, [00:24:00] "This is a great church."
It always came back to me. Yep. I got back so much more- Absolutely ... than, than whatever I perceived I had given away. And that's what we dream for you. This is my friend Bill Fender. He has been joining us on this podcast, and I'm glad you joined us, too. I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engage Church Network.
