Your Community Has Changed. Has Your Church? | Lewis McMullen
For generations, pastors preached to people who already knew the Bible. Today, many people walk into church with little or no biblical foundation.
In this episode, Mike Glenn sits down with New Testament scholar, former pastor, and former Belmont University dean Darrell Gwaltney to discuss what it means to faithfully communicate an unchanging gospel in a rapidly changing culture. Together, they explore why pastors must understand the questions people are asking, how ministry has changed, and why there has never been a better time to share the gospel.
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Mike Glenn: Lewis, welcome to our podcast today. Lewis, you and I, uh, go way back, and now you have a new job title with the State Baptist Convention, or it's new to me, uh, Multiplying Healthy Churches Team Leader for the Tennessee Baptist Mission Board. How do you get that on a business card? Do you-
Lewis McMullen: Uh, I have electronic business
Mike Glenn: cards.
Does it, does it circle around- Yeah, I got it ... and that kind of stuff? But to me, you're just Lewis, and I'm grateful for our friendship and, um, and what you have brought to my life and my leadership, and I'm eager to have, uh, the, the chance to talk to you a little bit about demographics.
Lewis McMullen: I was-
Mike Glenn: That, that, that does not seem to be a natural-
Lewis McMullen: No
Mike Glenn: calling
Lewis McMullen: for you. And it's not, and I'm the guy that hated statistics in college. Um, when I got through statistics, I said, "I hope I never have to do
Mike Glenn: it again." Oh, didn't we all? Um- Didn't we all. I'm never doing this again.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah, and, um, got into church planting in [00:01:00] 1986. Did my first church plant upstate. Well, up, out of, not really upstate New York.
It was about 45 minutes outside the city.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Little town called Chappaqua. Um, and as I started doing church planting, I realized I needed to find out what I was dealing with.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And so when I did my second church plant in South Carolina in, uh, 1988-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: I started looking for information about the community, growth trends, anything I could get my hands on, uh, kind of just backed into it, and I kind of became a community detective I wanted to know what they said was there, look at the trends and everything.
And then I got out and I burned up shoe leather.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Let's see if this is actually true, and a lot of it [00:02:00] was. But a lot of it also helped me to, okay, this is this many young families here. Where do they hang out? Mm-hmm. Where do they go? Where do they, what do they do? Uh, what's the average age, you know?
And, um, kind of started getting into it in South Carolina, and the next thing I know, um, my last two years in South Carolina, I had, uh, pastored a church I started. We started two churches out of it. And my last two years there, I was a part-time consultant for South Carolina Baptist Convention- Right ... Church Planting.
So I helped, I started helping church planters analyze their community. So we'd get demographics, anything we can get our hands on, uh, that kind of talked about the community. And then take in the demographics and go find the, uh, what Tom Wolfe called the person of influence-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: in the community, and start talking the demographics with them.
And then it started helping you understand what that community is.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And it [00:03:00] just became a part of my, my process of, all right, I've been called here to plant this church. Along with praying, "All right, Lord, I'm gonna get information," pray over it, look at the community- Mm-hmm ... and then kind of say what kind of vision is gonna attract these people, and what kind of ministry's gonna attract those people instead of spinning my wheels trying to figure out, all right, which group am I gonna focus on.
And that's the other thing, you know, a lot of church planners do the shotgun approach. We hope we hit somebody.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: I went after-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: specific groups. Uh, I said, "Hey, these are underreach, underserved. They got the highest ministry possibility. I'm going for that."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Um, b- just to kind of stay where I'm at.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Now, this is the kind of demographic study that, that all marketers do.
Lewis McMullen: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, every ki- uh, every fast food restaurant.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, you know, I, I tell [00:04:00] people that when you drive through a community, look to see if there's a Target, a Walmart, or a Dollar General.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Because they have different markets that they hit, that they have found, and they say, "Well, this is our group, so we'll put a Dollar General here, Walmart here, Target here."
And it makes a difference with that. What, what surprised you when you first started gathering this kind of information?
Lewis McMullen: That the church wasn't working with it.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: That a lot of churches did not realize their communities were changing around them, AKA, needed a new church plant- Right ... to reach them. The other thing that surprised me, um, was how much the marketing world was ahead of us on trying to understand.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, like you said- Right ... Walmart, Target-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: Dollar G- They're not gonna make that risk- No ... unless there's an opportunity.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And they all, and like you said, they, they went after a targeted group.
Mike Glenn: [00:05:00] Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: We needed to do the same in ministry, and, and that's something churches need to understand is you've got a niche in that community.
Mike Glenn: Exactly
Lewis McMullen: right. Stick with the niche.
Mike Glenn: One size does not fit all. Uh, it, no. Never has. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: And you need to understand who you are, what you can do, how far you can go in that boundary-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: but realize you're not gonna reach everybody You have a market. Um, you know, that's why you have Burger King, McDonald's, Wendy's- Right
Cook Out- Mm-hmm ... the others. Um, you find who, who your repeat customers are gonna be. Mm-hmm. And in church planting when I was doing that, okay, these people will be the best to be, quote, "repeat customers."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: But I found churches weren't doing that. People weren't understanding that. The other thing that I found is marketing pl- businesses, a lot of people say, well, they read the demographics.
Well, yeah, they read the demographics, but they had people. They did things in the community. [00:06:00] Um, a lot of people didn't know this. When Walmart, before they built a store, they would throw up a, a, like a huge tent and sell plants.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And they'd judge whether or not to build a store in that community how many people came in and bought plants and who were those people.
Mike Glenn: Exactly. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: So they knew their market.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I think sometimes what we also do as churches is, we're gonna do this type of outreach. Well, all right, who are you targeting here?
Mike Glenn: It may not, may not work in that community.
Lewis McMullen: Right. Um, you know, I'm a, I'm an empty nester. Church I go to, they have a ministry for empty nest people.
If I went to that church and only thing they offer was how to change baby diapers- Right ... and parenting classes- Mm-hmm ... I'm beyond that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I thought I'd never say that, Mike. Uh, I used to be the young church planter in the room.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, [00:07:00] yeah. I'm the older guy in the room. Now, now, now you're, now you're the veteran, huh?
Lewis McMullen: I think churches, yes, there is a spiritual side to demographics. Yeah. Yeah, I just said that. Spiritual side to demographic. It helps you know how to pray. Helps you know how to identify.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Un- unpack that. Don't run by that so quickly. All right. It helps you know how to pray.
Lewis McMullen: Okay. All right. You start looking at the demographic and you say, "Okay, I'm seeing a large group here, families with children at this 35 to 45 range."
I'll learn everything I know about that. Okay. Lord, what kind of ministry would best suit? What are the spiritual needs-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: for that? Then as you're praying through that, you're, you're hoping for discernment. What are the questions I need to ask? Not I'm gonna put leather to this- Mm-hmm ... and get out in that community [00:08:00] To find out if this is the actual needs of these people, if this is the actual desires of these people.
Um, you know, demographics can give you the surface. So you've gotta pray through that for discernment. Is this what these people are? And as I find if you know how to connect and you know that, okay, this is my group I'm gonna focus on, you start learning how to ask questions and you almost become a missionary.
That's, that's the thing that I think in North America we still-
Mike Glenn: That's the paradigm shift we can't make-
Lewis McMullen: Right ...
Mike Glenn: right now.
Lewis McMullen: We're thinking like pastors and preachers.
Mike Glenn: Chaplains of the status quo.
Lewis McMullen: And instead of being missionary.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: With me planting churches in all over the United States, I don't think like a pastor, I don't think like a chaplain.
Best compliment I ever got was from somebody said, "You're not your typical pastor." I said, "Thank you very much." You know, "Can I buy you a steak dinner?" Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:00]
Lewis McMullen: I
Mike Glenn: think- That's a whole nother podcast. We can get into that one.
Lewis McMullen: I think like a detective and I think like a missionary.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Anybody who served with IMB or any mission board will tell you, you learn everything about the culture that you go in it.
Right. That's how demographics-
Mike Glenn: Okay, now- ... and
Lewis McMullen: community analysis ...
Mike Glenn: okay, let's stop right here because this is the point I constantly try to make. We have to think about our own communities-
Lewis McMullen: Right ...
Mike Glenn: the same way a missionary to an international setting would have to understand their community.
Lewis McMullen: Yes.
Mike Glenn: If we send somebody to Japan, we expect them to speak Japanese.
Lewis McMullen: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and we'd be really disappointed if they came back and said, "Well, I don't even speak the language." But we have pastors in communities that literally do not speak the language.
Lewis McMullen: No. They don't understand their community.
Mike Glenn: Do not understand their community.
Lewis McMullen: And they're ... And, and I hate to say this, their gathering that they have, their congregation that they have often doesn't represent-
Mike Glenn: Doesn't reflect-
that [00:10:00] community ... the community, right.
Lewis McMullen: And part of that is the demographics, the community has all changed-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: but we're still driving in to-
Mike Glenn: And if you don't get out, put shoe leather to it- Oh ... you don't see the change outside your sanctuary.
Lewis McMullen: Right.
Mike Glenn: My sanctuary looks the same way it did last Saturday, uh, last Sunday.
And, uh, and so I don't know that there's a new Vietnamese restaurant down here.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I live, I live in Gallatin area.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Uh,
Lewis McMullen: I walk every evening Two nights ago I'm out walking. Here's this huge, I assume Muslim family. Wom- women, their heads are covered.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, 12 of them out in the yard. The kids are playing, the men are talking.
Mm-hmm. The... And I'm going, "Okay, most people would think Gallatin is the suburb of Nashville." That's right. It's all-
Mike Glenn: Buckle of the Bible Belt.
Lewis McMullen: Buckle of the Bible Belt all life. And so the next night I'm out [00:11:00] walking. I'm walking with a Hindu family down the sidewalk- Mm-hmm ... with me, and we're having a little, little chat and everything.
And then, uh, last night I'm out walking. Single woman who is the assistant at the vet office where my dog goes-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: who's a former Marine, who's a lesbian
Sorry, this ain't white bi- Bible Belt anymore. No. This is- No ... and this is Gallatin.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: And the, the, the me guy, the missionary curious guy, "Hey, what brought you to Gallatin? Hey- Mm-hmm ... you know, how you like it here? Where you from? What you doing? Oh, what do you think of the area?" Um, asking those questions.
Right. So what did I do? Well, I pulled out my little trusty program.
Mike Glenn: And
Lewis McMullen: got the
Mike Glenn: numbers down it. Well, wait a minute. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Wait a minute. We've got 500 families in the Gallatin area that say they're Hindu.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I can look up surnames [00:12:00] and everything. Well, we've got quite a few Muslim families.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: So okay, this is a niche. That's right. Are we reaching these people?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Um, you know, so that to me was where the demographics and the shoe leather. The problem is you don't see it unless you get out in it, and if you just drive to your church and back-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Lewis McMullen: or your small group and back, or they're your favorite restaurant and back.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I, I learned something from the African Am- uh, African American m- community guys.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: I go hang out at a barber shop. Yeah. And you learn a lot about the community- Yeah ... in a barber shop. And so I, where I apply demo- I hear something. Oh, I, let's go look- Yeah ... that, see if the research says
Mike Glenn: this too.
Yeah. Now in, in the little town, one of the first little towns that I pastored in, uh, one of my key leaders said, "You know, the guys meet for breakfast every morning up here." And then he [00:13:00] looked at me and he said, "Did you hear what I said? You need to be at that breakfast." He
Lewis McMullen: missed breakfast. Well, going back to what I said about praying over it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: If I read something that catches me, okay, the prayer is, "Okay, Lord, open my eyes to see it and connect to it."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: You know, uh, that person of peace or, you know, find out, um, because you gotta have shoe leather with that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, we either do one of two things. We look at the demographics and say, "Oh, wow, it says we got this many Gen X.
Hey, let's run. Let's do, let's do a Gen X ministry."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What do you know about Gen X? Oh, what I read on the internet.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Gen X in Memphis is different than Gen X. Gen X in Antioch is different than Gen X in- Mm-hmm ... Bell, Belle Meade or- Mm-hmm ... anywhere else.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Again, you've got to read it with caution, with understanding, pray for [00:14:00] discernment, and see if it connects, but it's a good place to start with the demographics.
And that's always just been the way that I do it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Information isn't the same as knowledge.
Lewis McMullen: No. Information is the starting of knowledge. Right. And then you know how, you know how to apply it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Um, and so what I try to teach people when I'm giving them this, and, a- and I will admit AI has helped me do this now-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: is not only do I give a church demographics, I used to sit down and write a whole thing out, you know, this, this is what you need to look for, trends and everything.
Mike Glenn: No, I know I got several of those reports when I was-
Lewis McMullen: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: with you at Brentwood.
Lewis McMullen: Um, what I do now is I'll write some of that out, put it in AI, and I say, "Tighten this for me."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And then I'll put some other things, "Tighten this for me." That, and I hate to say it, write it in a fifth-grade level.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And then I [00:15:00] put on there, "To learn this, you're gonna have to do this. To learn this, you have to do this." Um, the other danger I think that churches do is they misread demographics.
You can read into it with your, your worldview- With your bias, yeah ... and your bias, and you can almost make it say anything you want it to say. Um, give you a good example. There's a church here in Nashville, I told them about what the makeup of their community was around them. I told them that, uh, 20% of it was Hispanic.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And I had a man stand up in the church and tell me I was a liar
So I said, "Will you join me next Saturday?"
Mike Glenn: I have made up my mind. Don't, don't confuse me with facts, right?
Lewis McMullen: I said, "Will you join me next Saturday?" And him and several deacons of that church joined me, and I took them to the soccer field.
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah [00:16:00]
Lewis McMullen: And I said, "They live here, they live here, they live here, they live here."
They go, "How did you do that?" I said, "Well, unfortunately, I followed them home."
Mike Glenn: So, so, so if we hear about you being arrested for stalking, you-
Lewis McMullen: And, and I'm doing research ... doing research. Yeah. We can call stalking research.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Lewis McMullen: Um, but you gotta, you've just, you know, you've got to open your eyes to it- Mm-hmm
I think. And that's what demographics do. They open your eyes. Hey, I didn't know this.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Let's go see if it's real. Let's go see if it's true. Then your next question you need to ask-
Mike Glenn: Or how, how is it true for you? Okay. How is it true? Having, having, um, uh, 20% Hispanics doesn't tell you everything about that Hispanic community.
Mm-mm. Because where- Where are they from? Where are they from? What... You know, one of the things I found out was, and, and you, uh, you probably taught me this, uh, that saying Hispanic says nothing. It ma- makes a difference if they're [00:17:00] from Mexico or El Salvador or some of these countries have history and don't like each other.
Uh- And
Lewis McMullen: there's a hierarchy ...
Mike Glenn: and there's a hierarchy of, of, of, uh, so to say Hispanic is, is, is not real helpful, uh- And- ... when it comes to this kind of, of work ...
Lewis McMullen: and if you look at that and you see it, you go, "Okay. All right. This is, this is this group's culture."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: This group ain't gonna get with this group.
Mike Glenn: No. No.
Lewis McMullen: So don't start a church and call this guy as pastor and- That's
Mike Glenn: right ...
Lewis McMullen: and, uh, it's not gonna happen. Um, you know, I've seen this in all the different language. So again, you know, I always say there's demographics, there's the community, getting out, and then there's two levels after that. You gotta start asking questions.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And you ask questions and you listen. And what it means is you take your filter off, you take your worldview [00:18:00] off, you take everything off, and you listen to the honesty.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You listen. It's- You don't wait to talk. Right. You listen.
Lewis McMullen: You listen.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: They will tell you. Um, that's the other thing I, I found, especially with people groups-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: is they'll tell you all about their culture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: They'll tell you all about their religion. America is the only place where we, we don't talk about religion.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And what I'm also finding now, it's a Southern thing. People from California and Illinois, as I start having conversation, "Well, this is the way I feel about church and-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: everything." And they're just open and honest. They're either saying, "I don't really care for it." Right. Or, "I was part of this back home, and this is what I see about the South." And I'm going, "Wow. We're trying to be polite and not talk about it, but they wanna talk about
Mike Glenn: it." Right. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Um, you know, I've ... I'm, I'm from the South.
I was raised in the South, [00:19:00] but I planted... My first plant was in New York City. Mm-hmm. So I mean, it's kinda like, mm, okay, we gotta, we gotta learn to ask questions- Right ... and listen. And then how do we do ministry? They'll tell you how to do ministry or what they're looking for. Mm-hmm. And if it doesn't fit your church, then start something new.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: But do it right
Mike Glenn: Yeah, just don't throw it out there.
Lewis McMullen: Do it right.
Mike Glenn: Because that will be your first engagement with that particular culture, group of people, and if, and if you fumble that, you won't get a second chance.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay, I'm pastor of local church, and I've picked up this podcast and I'm really excited about demographics.
What do I do?
Lewis McMullen: If you're a Tennessee Baptist church, you contact me-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: um, or your local [00:20:00] association, and we give you a set of, we get you a set of demographics. We start you off with a simple report. What you do is you start reading through that, and you say, "Hey, I see this. I see this." But you look at the trends in your community, and you look at your congregation, and you go, "They don't match."
Is there that group here?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. What a lot of pastors want to do is, all right, let's just change the whole ball of wax and we're going after this group out here.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And the first thing is they can't do it right and well.
Mike Glenn: Well, they don't understand that group well, you know? You- Well,
Lewis McMullen: they're not that group.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, you can't, uh-
Lewis McMullen: Don't ask me to reach 20-somethings today. No, I don't- I do not.
Mike Glenn: Not anymore.
Lewis McMullen: Not anymore.
Mike Glenn: We used to do youth revivals, now we don't do them anymore. [00:21:00]
Lewis McMullen: You, you have to decide, okay, if I can reach them, what do we have to do to reach them?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: The other thing is you just can't, the other thing you have to do with demographics and you have to look at trends, and I pulled, I pulled a thing up on the whole state before I came over here. Couple things that came out of the data I pulled was people are looking for excellence.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: They're looking for community.
Mike Glenn: But yeah.
Lewis McMullen: That's the biggie.
Mike Glenn: Lo- lo- loneliness is a, is
Lewis McMullen: a- Is a big thing.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: They're looking for community They're looking for authenticity. Hey, I said it right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: They are looking for long-term connection, which means you just can't throw up a banner and say, "We're here."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. [00:22:00]
Lewis McMullen: They have to connect with people to be a part of it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, that's the one trend I have seen over the years. You know, we grew up in a generation, you move to a new community, you go find the latest church and-
Mike Glenn: The, yeah, the, the nearest, the nearest Baptist Church and move your membership.
Lewis McMullen: Right. Yeah. Um, or, um, you know, get upset with that one, you move down the road-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: go to the next one. It takes a person, it used to be seven visits, it's now 10 visits before they connect. And now here's the other thing, they don't visit 10 in a row.
Mike Glenn: No, no.
Lewis McMullen: No.
Mike Glenn: And they've been on the w- and they've been on the internet before they come and visit you.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah, the website's f- front door.
Mike Glenn: Right. And- It used to be, you know, I, I can remember wanting your church name to start with A, so you were the first church in the Yellow Pages.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah. So you're a pastor, you get this, you see there's this group-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: and you s- this [00:23:00] trend, it doesn't match you. Then you say, "Okay, what can we do to reach them?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: You move beyond the local church mentality. You've gotta move to a kingdom mentality.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Which means are we just, are we reaching them for our church or are we reaching them for the kingdom?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Um, one of the things this trend-
Mike Glenn: Which means you may not be the person who reaches them. You may be supporting the person who reaches them.
Lewis McMullen: Right. The other thing that, that this, this trend that we're seeing is people are saying, "I love Jesus, I don't love the church."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: So you've got to connect that Jesus and the church are together, but you gotta do it in such a way that They feel committed and, or not really committed, they feel a part of it Mm-hmm For you to make that change in your local congregation if you can't, [00:24:00] as you know, it takes 30 years-
Mike Glenn: Right
Lewis McMullen: to change the organization.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: You be part of something that can. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we were just sharing earlier about replants. Right. We're having, we're having congregations realize we can't reach these people.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: So let's do something different. Let's do a legacy. Right.
Mike Glenn: Let's
Lewis McMullen: make the change. Or as a pastor you look and you say, "Hey, here's some, h- here's a group here that we're not reaching that we've got part of it here."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: You learn everything you can about that group You go hang out with them. Mm-hmm. Or you get some people that you trust to hang out with them. Um, you listen to them. You have coffee with them. You- that's where you do the shoe leather.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And you ask them questions to find out who they are and say, "Well, if you were to design a ministry, what would you look for?"
Mike Glenn: Right. Or who else do you think I should talk to?
Lewis McMullen: Uh, who, who, who is [00:25:00] this person? Yeah. Who
Mike Glenn: are these- Who is the person of influence in this community- Yeah ... that I really need to know?
Lewis McMullen: And, you know, we talk a lot about person of peace. I think y- we need to- Right ... not forget about person of influence.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: 'Cause every age group and community has got that person of a- influence. That's right. And they know everything.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: You have to decide, okay, do we have the bandwidth to create something new, or do we support creating something new? Or do we say, "Hey, there's a church down the road That could do this. Are we, let's walk alongside partnerships.
Mm-hmm. See, we, we don't talk a lot about that
Mike Glenn: either. Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Where, hey, we got the deep pockets or the older folks who give. Right. They've got the younger people-
Mike Glenn: They've got the energy to get it done ...
Lewis McMullen: energy.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Our older folks can help them mentor those people, and we can be a partner- Mm-hmm ... in the kingdom to [00:26:00] do this.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Everything
Mike Glenn: is- And the young entrepreneur can be mentored by the retired CEO.
Lewis McMullen: Right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, it's a w- it's an incredible thing when that happens. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Um, and you know, I've got the retired CEO, I got the retired school teacher.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Um, you know, sh- this lady used to be head of the PTO- Yeah ... you know, PTA- Mm-hmm
whatever it is now. Mm-hmm. Um, we can help this young church do this- Mm-hmm ... with these people. So i- and again, it's looking at the community and say, "Do we necessarily have to bring them here? We wanna bring them to the kingdom." Right. And, and, and that's what you have to think this whole time.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. You have to rework, one of the things we talk about is you have to, you have to rework your stan- what your success is.
Mm-hmm. You know, I'm, uh, you know, one of the funny things with, with me is, um, uh, my success now [00:27:00] is, and the way that I, I treasure my success, uh, is, is in those pastors that I've mentored over the last 30 years of, of my, you know, the Jay Strothers and, and, uh, Aaron Bryans and all that. I, I get more kick out of their success-
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: uh, than, than I, than, than I do mine now, because I, I don't know, that's just the k- kind of change. But you have to understand success changes.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and, and the scorecard has to change, uh, as, as, as- In and out
Lewis McMullen: of the church ...
Mike Glenn: exactly right
Lewis McMullen: Um, communities are changing now quicker than ever
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: Um, we're, we're seeing that with the trends- Mm-hmm
and the demographic trends is, you know, it's changing faster and faster.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And for five years this community might be a young adult, and then all of a sudden it's married parents with kids who- Right ... are in the school [00:28:00] system. Mm-hmm. Um, it's, you know, changing constantly. Um-
Mike Glenn: Or it could be senior adults and the next week it is all young adults in the, in the-
Lewis McMullen: Where my wife and I live, when we first moved in we were the older couple.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: We're the younger couple now. Oh, we're the- We're the, we're the younger couple now. It's like, did we bring all these old people here? And um, and that's the other thing. Uh, I w- I was talking to someone about this the other day. You know, I'm gonna be 63 this year. When I was young, 63 was- Old ... old guy. 63, 70, I mean, look at yourself.
Uh, you're still at it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Uh, we're not-
Mike Glenn: Well, I, I, I- We're
Lewis McMullen: not taking this senior adult trip to Gatlinburg ... I'm
Mike Glenn: m- I'm highly motivated by my hero Keith Richards, who was talking about The Rolling Stones- ... going back on tour, and he's 82.
Lewis McMullen: Hey, Skynyrd is still on tour, man. [00:29:00] But, uh, you know, uh, uh, I think Keith's got a little bit more help to help him get on tour.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Um, but we have to look at not only the demographics of age, but who they are now. Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, we're not doing the senior adult trips.
Mike Glenn: No.
Lewis McMullen: We wanna be involved.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Put p- plows back in.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, you know, I led six mission teams from my church to New York City on mission trips as a team leader.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Uh, most of them were younger than me. The l- the last one was all my age, and we had a, we had a good time. They found out I can still walk them to death too. But those people, they didn't wanna do the apple orchard trip. No. No. They wanted to go to New York City and work.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: So you also have to do that in your community.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. "
Lewis McMullen: Hey, you know, over here we got these young people, but I got a group of 70, 80, 70, 80-year-olds who still want to do something."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. "
Lewis McMullen: Let's, let's do a ministry- [00:30:00] Put them together. That's right. Yeah ... that connects this." And again, it's just doing your research. W-
Mike Glenn: well, that, and you, you ... And in doing that you create the family structure.
Lewis McMullen: Right.
Mike Glenn: Which for many people a lonely, messed up family and all that, to recreate that is huge.
Lewis McMullen: Family's big-
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah ...
Lewis McMullen: now, but it's not necessarily what we think is family.
Mike Glenn: No.
Lewis McMullen: When I look at the state and everything, family sometimes- is you've got this group over here who just hangs-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: who does things together.
Um, and I'm, I'm showing my age here. I'm going back to Cheers. Where everybody knows your name. Where everybody
Mike Glenn: knows your name. Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And I really think that writer of that show- Yeah ... had it-
Mike Glenn: Had it down.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Had it down. You, you said you pulled some numbers from Tennessee. Yeah. What, what, what kind of, what kind of numbers did you pull?
What surprises you? What shocks you? What is it that- Uh ... that we, that we need to know about our great state here?
Lewis McMullen: Well, uh, by 2030 we're gonna grow about 3.45%, which means we're going from [00:31:00] about 7.3 million to 7.56 million.
Mike Glenn: And all these people coming in from California, Chicago.
Lewis McMullen: California, Illinois, moving back from Florida.
We're the halfway point, point. Um-
Mike Glenn: Now that is funny. We have a larger group moving from Florida to Tennessee than we do Tennessee moving to Florida. I figured it was northern people who moved to Florida, said it's too hot here, and went back halfway and ended up in Tennessee.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah.
We are becoming a richer state. Um, average household earnings now are over 100,000 per household.
Mike Glenn: Wow.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I think that's some folks bringing the money in. Um-
Mike Glenn: But you wouldn't guess that for Tennessee if you were just- No ... looking at a map. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: We, we are, uh, becoming more and more white collar professional.
Uh, used to be [00:32:00] almost 48 to 54%, uh, 54 being blue collar, 48 being white collar. We are now, it's reversed. Mm-hmm. It's about 56 to 57%, uh, white collar professional and industry is dying down. I mean, we're w- and that kinda adds to the, um- income going up too
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: We're becoming the state where m- most professional places wanna relocate to
Mike Glenn: Right
Lewis McMullen: And that's 'cause we don't have a state income tax, we got, we got good transportation, unless you go to the middle of downtown Nashville Um, go around it.
Um, we have a higher education standard too A lot of people didn't f- know that, but w- our education has increased over the last 10 years, our standard.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Which I think is [00:33:00] because of the influx- Right ... of who we have come in. Of, of,
Mike Glenn: of who th-
Lewis McMullen: There's above average interest in relational, practical, and spiritual Bible study, quality worship.
So it's about a 54% increase of people with an interest in spiritual matters.
Mike Glenn: Over what period of time?
Lewis McMullen: Over a 10 year, over the last decade.
Mike Glenn: Okay. All right. Stop here. Mm-hmm. We're told that there is less interest in Jesus, church, all this stuff. You're saying that it, in Tennessee it's increased-
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: over the last
Lewis McMullen: 10 years.
But I didn't say it was Jesus, and I didn't say it was church.
Mike Glenn: No, you didn't.
Lewis McMullen: It's a spiritual interest.
Mike Glenn: Ah, okay.
Lewis McMullen: And that's where we missed the mark. We're still trying to tie in, if you're a spiritual [00:34:00] person, you gotta attend church.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: These people don't understand that.
Mike Glenn: No.
Lewis McMullen: Don't u- don't ga- grasp that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And we go about it the wrong way.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um-
Mike Glenn: We
Lewis McMullen: go- We're asking the wrong questions ...
Mike Glenn: yes, yeah. We go about it because we are, uh, officers in a, in an organization rather than mission- missionaries on the field. Yep. And I'm trying to grow my organization rather than accomplish the mission.
Lewis McMullen: But anything spiritual has to be relational and practical.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. It has to make a difference in the way I parent, has to make a difference- Mm-hmm ... in the way my marriage works.
Lewis McMullen: And part of that is-
Mike Glenn: Quality of life ...
Lewis McMullen: average age has gone from 40 to 41. We're a older state now.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, I think because that cost of living has gone up, that 100K a year-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Lewis McMullen: a lot of our younger, younger are either moving out or [00:35:00] they're not just, just not coming back after school's over.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Um, if they are, um, it's more towards rural. They can't afford to live in the cities anymore.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, Jean and I were l- laughing about if, if we downsized and moved out of our home in Franklin, that we would've had to go down around Lawrenceburg to buy a house. Because of the way the demographics have changed and all that.
But the other thing that we have found out that I'm, that, that we've experienced in our own families is that kids go off to college, take their first job somewhere else. In the college town where they graduated from, uh, somewhere near there. They're an engineer, they're accountant or whatever, but they'll get, uh...
A friend of mine, uh, his daughter ha- is filling out the f- one-year contract from, for an accounting firm, is planning to move back. So the [00:36:00] second job is when they move back.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And they would bring back that little more mature concerns than somebody getting their life started.
Lewis McMullen: Yep.
Mike Glenn: And that changes the way that you do church.
Lewis McMullen: And this is the older-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Lewis McMullen: it's older crowd, more mature- Mm-hmm ... more family-oriented, and everything, again, a practicality.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Um, you know, how's this going to affect me? How's this gonna help me?
Mike Glenn: Right. Right.
Lewis McMullen: Uh, more connection. Um, Anglo is gonna drop about 1%, while Hispanic is increasing 8% in the next 10 years.
Mike Glenn: Wow.
Lewis McMullen: Um, it's still our largest group. Our second-largest group is South Asian Indian.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, in Williamson County, Brentwood is, when I pastored, you know- It was s- ... we were all always talked about how we had to do multicultural stuff, and w- working with you, we find out we have the, the African-American community is, is not that large, [00:37:00] while the South Asian community is huge-
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: in Williamson County.
Lewis McMullen: Well, here's a stat most people don't know, is that almost 93% of our African-American community in Tennessee lives in the Memphis or West Tennessee area.
Mike Glenn: 93%?
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm 6% here
Mike Glenn: Wow. Uh, well, I know that there's very little in East Tennessee because-
Lewis McMullen: Very little ...
Mike Glenn: uh, and that, and that goes back to the history of the state, where the, where the farms and the plantations were and-
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: a- a- and that kind of thing, so.
Lewis McMullen: So that's... And, you know, what gets me is we have two large African American colleges here.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: But most of those students don't stay here. They go back either Memphis- Go back home ... or home.
Mike Glenn: Home.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Isn't that crazy? All right, Lewis, um- We got a pastor friend who's sitting [00:38:00] somewhere hearing this.
What do you want him to do next? He's g- he's, he, he, he's got a heart for it, but doesn't know what to do next. What does he do next?
Lewis McMullen: Take one mile around your church.
Mike Glenn: One mile?
Lewis McMullen: One mile. Start with one mile
get you a good demographic report Read it. Have someone read it with you, someone who does demographics. Then in that one mile, you start learning everything you can to know about that one mile around your church. Who's there? Who lives there? Mm-hmm. What are the trends? You find where everybody hangs out, if it's the YMCA, if it's Joe's Fishing Shack- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ... if it's, um, you know, everybody hangs out this barber shop or that-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: you start hanging there. Or like you said, "Everybody's having breakfast up at Joe's here." Yeah. Exactly. Right, right, right. "Let's go to Joe's." And you listen, [00:39:00] and you'll start learning. And you, you find that person of influence.
Then you say, "What is my church's role in this?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: How, how can we best minister in this context?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Why did Jesus put us here?
Lewis McMullen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Why are we still here? Why- Mm-hmm ... why do we have a 12th?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: A lot of churches will say, "Well, 20 years ago, Brother So-and-So or these people- Mm-hmm ... came out here, they started this church."
Mm-hmm. All right, you're still there.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Why did Jesus keep you here?
Lewis McMullen: And- Right ... well, it's keeping you here. And if you find that at least 40 to 50% of your congregation is driving in- Then you need to make that less-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Lewis McMullen: and that,
Mike Glenn: that- Yeah ... context. People are gonna t- the, the, the future is people are gonna go to a church in their community.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: They're gonna go, "I'm gonna walk to it. I'm gonna ride my bike to it."
Lewis McMullen: I'm gonna w- I'm gonna be there. It's community oriented.
Mike Glenn: That's exactly right, "And I'm gonna be there [00:40:00] probably more than once because something else is going on during that week."
Lewis McMullen: And if you can't do that, start something new.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Even if it's in your own building.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Connect with them.
Mike Glenn: Right. Uh, and let- let's, uh, let's go back to this person of influence, person of peace. Uh, a lot of people will be hesitant trying to find that person. Now, you know, my, my, my personality is such, you know, I don't mind being told no. I've been told no before.
But it, it, so, so I'll call and get the appointment. I'll do that. Mm-hmm. But, but what I have found, and, and back me up on this or, or correct me if I'm wrong, but when you find, uh, the mayor, the city councilman, the old, the old business guy, the, the matriarch of the Black church-
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: who is the keeper of, of the history and all that, most of the time they love telling you these stories.
Lewis McMullen: Yes, they do.
Mike Glenn: They love sharing this information. [00:41:00] Uh, and, um-
Lewis McMullen: You let 'em share the information-
Mike Glenn: You let 'em share the information ... and you have no opinion And you have no opinion, but just understand the culture and the history and why things have ended up like it's done. So don't be afraid, uh, to ask somebody to coffee or whatever and just say, "I'm, hey, I'm trying to find out.
I'm trying to understand." And they'll let you know.
Lewis McMullen: Oh, yeah. Pretty quick. They'll tell you everything you need to know. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Sure will.
Lewis McMullen: And this, I've done this too. I've even said, "Hey, I'm starting a new church here."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. "
Lewis McMullen: I need your advice." Mm-hmm. "I need your help."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm. And, you know, I've even had the old guy who I, when I s- church I started in South Carolina was- Residential during the week, r- resort on the weekend- Mm-hmm
all around the lake.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Out in the country, but people were moving in. This guy ran an old fishing place.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: He can cuss like a sailor.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Um, kept a shot of [00:42:00] whiskey behind his bar- Yeah, yeah ... or behind his sh- counter. And he looked at me, "You're asking an old drunk like me?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: And this is what I said, "It's old drunks like you I wanna reach."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: He said, "Don't you want church people?" I... And pardon the expression, I said, "Heck n..." Well, I won't say the word. Randy Davis might watch this. I said, "Heck no."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. No, no.
Lewis McMullen: And he opened up.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And he told me who's who and what's going on.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And one of the things he told me is, you know, one of the struggles they had in that community was all the Lutheran pastors were down at the bar-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: on Friday night. And he says, "A- and then you hear them preach on Sunday morning." He said, "Son, be yourself."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. "
Lewis McMullen: And don't be a drunk."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: So-
Mike Glenn: And then becomes one of your biggest advocates in the community. Right. "Oh, I know Lewis. Lewis good people."
Lewis McMullen: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And, and that opens more doors for you.
Lewis McMullen: Right. But you listen, you ask.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: And [00:43:00] again, you just, uh, you- it's like a detective. You don't go in with your preconceived- Right ... idea or mindset-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: for that. And I think that's, I think if more of our pastors and pastors' staff really got out more in the community-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: not only just reading dev- uh, just get out.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Not what their people told them.
Well, that's brother so-and-so or that such and such. Mm-hmm. But get out in the community and talk to people, like say, a person of influence- Yeah ... or somebody who doesn't attend your church- Mm-hmm ... and just listen to 'em. I think it gives you a better perspective.
Mike Glenn: Well, I made our staff, um, uh, not come to church one weekend and go out and find out what people did who don't go to church.
And they- Home
Lewis McMullen: Depot ...
Mike Glenn: they came back and said, "We gotta build a dog park." Mm-hmm. 'Cause everybody walks their dogs all the time.
Lewis McMullen: In my neighborhood- Yeah ... you know, people are walking their dogs and, you know, I got a little dog, I'll take him out. Yeah. That's how I [00:44:00] connect with some of my,
Mike Glenn: my
Lewis McMullen: neighbors.
Mike Glenn: Starts a conversation, doesn't it?
Lewis McMullen: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Sure does.
Lewis McMullen: Um, and just keep your eyes open.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: When you're driving, driving on Sunday morning Uh, now some pastors are so, uh, me wrong. Don't think about your sermon or that deacon that called you the night before- Mm-hmm ... and chewed you out.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Open your eyes, see who's, and see what they're doing.
See, see what, see what's
Mike Glenn: happening. Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: I mean, it, um, they're at Home Depot or they're at Walmart or they're sleeping in. Mm-hmm. You know? All right, that tells you something right there- Mm ... first and foremost. And, you know, if I, if I was to leave everybody with something, be a detective and get out of your walls.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: Watch.
Mike Glenn: Be, be the expert of your own community.
Lewis McMullen: Right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, exactly right. How do people get in touch with you, Lewis? Um- I know how. I got you on, on, on fast dial there.
Lewis McMullen: Um-
Mike Glenn: So. [00:45:00]
Lewis McMullen: 615-815-5095 is my phone number. That's my cell number. Uh, l mcmullin@tnbaptist.org.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Uh, and I can run... What I tell people is I can run demographics all the way from one square block to a whole neighborhood- Yeah
to a whole zip code to a whole city. Um, there's a part of my program, my wife calls it my stalking program. I can tell you who your neighbors are- Yeah ... how much money they make- Yeah ... how long have they lived there, how many kids they got.
Mike Glenn: And, and this is information that all the marketing- Uh-huh ... all, all the major businesses and all that use.
So this is- Um- ... this is stuff that's out there, right?
Lewis McMullen: Part of the stuff that we use is from Experian.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Lewis McMullen: You buy anything in this country-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Lewis McMullen: uh, we use that lifestyle model that they have.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: There's another guide that I use, a program that I use that takes the Experian lifestyle and kinda gives you some ideas what [00:46:00] kind of ministries are gonna best suit-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Lewis McMullen: those folks. Um, the other thing I would say is don't try being something you're not. If you can't pull it off, don't pull it off.
Mike Glenn: Mm-mm. Find somebody who can do that. Um- But don't, but don't... The, if, if the whole key is authentic, you can't do it if you're- Right. It's like- ... if that's not you ...
Lewis McMullen: I'm turning 63, my body some mornings tells me, "Don't you do what you did y- yesterday."
And that's why you need to tell churches is- That's
Mike Glenn: right. Yeah. Yeah ... if you
Lewis McMullen: can't
Mike Glenn: do it. I was sitting with a group of musicians and, uh, uh, black and white, and they're all great players in Nashville, and we were talking about different styles, who's your favorite. And I, I, I said, I said, "Y'all gotta help me with something."
I said, "I love blues."
Lewis McMullen: Mm-hmm. "
Mike Glenn: I, I love jazz. I don't get hip hop. I just don't get it." And one of the guys looks at me and goes, "It's not for you." It's so, so the idea that I would go out and try to do hip hop or reach a hip hop culture, [00:47:00] not gonna happen. Just not gonna happen
Lewis McMullen: I tell people, you know, we used to look at America as a melting pot.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: We're a salad bowl.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: We have all different ingredients in it. But, you know, you put the dressing on it and it kinda bling- brings out- Mm-hmm ... all the flavors- Yeah ... and everything out. And I tell people the gospel's the bla- uh, the dressing.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Lewis McMullen: If we look at it as a salad bowl, a tomato is gonna be a tomato- A tomato.
is gonna be a tomato. Even if it's cherry tomato or- Yeah ... anything.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Lewis McMullen: But the gospel can bring all that together and bring all the, the, the, the flavor out of it.
Mike Glenn: The, the flavor, yeah.
Lewis McMullen: I, I use that illustration with my wife. She said, "Well, some people like nuts on their salad." And I said, "Well, I'm the nut."
But if we can look at it, and we need to look at the church that way.
Mike Glenn: Right. It,
Lewis McMullen: it, it ain't real, yeah. We're not, we're not a melting pot anymore.
Mike Glenn: Mm-mm.
Lewis McMullen: We all don't look alike, act alike, sing alike, or think alike- Mm-hmm ... or [00:48:00] deal with the same problems. That's where demographics helps you understand these people, for lack of a better term, are a cherry tomato.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Lewis McMullen: Well, you definitely don't put a cherry tomato on ice cream unless you're a weird person. Yeah, yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah, yeah.
Lewis McMullen: But if you put it in a salad, put the right dressing on it-
Mike Glenn: It'll, it'll pop ...
Lewis McMullen: it'll pop.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Good stuff. Lewis, you're a good friend. Thank you. And I've appreciated our friendship over the years and, and you're a great resource to the church.
Lewis McMullen: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So thanks for being part of- Well, thank you ... our, of our podcast today.
Lewis McMullen: I appreciate it.
