The Most Underutilized People in Your Church | Will Acuff
Will Acuff, co-founder of Corner to Corner and Kingdom Founders, joins Mike Glenn to talk about the untapped gifts sitting in our churches. They explore what happens when believers connect their faith with the skills they use every day, why relief is only the beginning, and how churches can equip people to create real transformation in their communities.
Plus, Will shares the personal story behind his book No Elevator to Everest and what his family's journey taught him about faith, suffering, and experiencing God's love in the middle of difficult circumstances.
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Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] Welcome, Will. We are glad you're here today. Will Acuff is joining us on our podcast today. He is the author of No Elevator to Everest, as well as the founder of Corner to Corner Ministries. We're glad you're here today.
Will Acuff: Pumped to be here, Mike. Thank you for having me.
Mike Glenn: You are the, the founder of this nonprofit.
You show up at, uh, at, at my church, and, uh, and honestly, you're the 10th guy who's been in my office- trying to sell me something- ... or, or, or give me something- Uh-huh ... or whatever. Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and, and, and so I'm thinking, one, my people don't have time for this.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, my people don't have capacity for this, so why should I bother my people-
Will Acuff: Yeah
Mike Glenn: with this?
Will Acuff: Yeah, first I would say, uh, the distinction is this kind of program can be [00:01:00] run, uh, by volunteers and not staff. Mm-hmm. So that's one thing. We're not asking, "Hey, you know your small group leader?" Mm-hmm. "We also want them to take on this extra role."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Uh, so we can put that to rest. And then in terms of volunteers, uh, what we often find is that high capacity business leaders, right, CFOs, CMOs, these kind of folks, they're being asked on Sundays to maybe hand out bulletins-
Mike Glenn: Right
Will Acuff: when Monday through Friday, they're leading teams of hundreds.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: And so these are high capacity people who want to be useful, but when we give them low use jobs-
Mike Glenn: It
Will Acuff: frustrates them ... it d- it frustrates them. They don't feel tapped in. They don't feel called or made alive. Mm-hmm. And so I think there's all this latent capacity.
This would be the equivalent of if you had Tom Brady on your team and you were asking him to hand out water bottles. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, let's actually get him in the game throwing the football. And so what we do is we leverage those leaders to get them in the game.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And then it also does a core part of work for the church, by which I mean [00:02:00] you're getting discipleship growth by putting their faith and their skills- Right
into action.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And so this comes alongside the mission of the church-
Mike Glenn: Okay ...
Will Acuff: rather than be some new thing that doesn't really align with the church. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But some of my people would say, "Listen, I'm good at computers, I'm good at accounting, I'm good at this or that. I'm not good at any of this church stuff."
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We've got a role for you. Come on, get in the game. 100%, right? Like, we, we use bookkeepers, we use, uh, marketing professionals, website builders, email marketers. Ha- For
Mike Glenn: Je- for Jesus stuff?
Will Acuff: For Jesus stuff. This whole program is designed to launch neighbors out of poverty through small business creation- Mm-hmm
while also doing discipleship work as we unpack that they were made by God- Mm-hmm ... for a loving purpose. They're called by Christ. And so it is ingrained in big biblical principles, but also the technical blocking and tackling [00:03:00] you need- Mm-hmm ... to start a small business. And so we can get those volunteers plugged in using their skills in that way.
Mike Glenn: So where are you originally from?
Will Acuff: Yeah, born in Durham, North Carolina, raised outside of, uh, Boston. My dad was a church planter. Um, after going to seminary at Gordon-Conwell- Mm-hmm ... he planted in 1985 in the office of a gas station, and by the mid-'90s, 1,000 to 2,000 people on- Wow ... Sunday, um, all through conversion growth.
Um, so I grew up in a, in a family that was very kingdom-minded and entrepreneurial. Mm-hmm. I think that's where John and I, uh, got it from. Um, and, uh, but came back to the South, uh, for college to do my undergrad at NC State. Mm-hmm. Thought I'd go be a pastor just like my dad, um, and then I fell in love with being in a rock and roll band, and so took a detour where I was...
Uh, my hair was down to here, none of it was gray, and I was playing from the Apollo in Harlem down to the Dallas Hard Rock and a bunch [00:04:00] of crappy bars in between. Um-
Mike Glenn: Gun and knife clubs they call them, huh? Oh,
Will Acuff: man.
Mike Glenn: Where you- Shoot your way in, cut your way out, huh? You
Will Acuff: might get paid 10 bucks- ... but you had free beer kind of spots.
And, uh, man, it was a lot of fun, but I would say- But what
Mike Glenn: instrument did you play?
Will Acuff: Uh, I was co-lead singer and lead guitar player.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Will Acuff: Yeah. Um, but good for my ego, bad for my soul.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And, uh, at that time, uh, I met an epidemiologist from the University of North Carolina who was a expert on the AIDS pandemic, and this is 2002.
He started leading a small group at his house- Mm-hmm ... where we were studying the Word and asking the question: What should Christians do in the face of suffering- Mm-hmm ... and poverty? And then he was giving us, like, a PhD level class on, you know, global economic trends and how that influenced disease and, uh...
So then we went to Nairobi, uh, that summer, and we all split up and I stayed with a Kenyan family. Uh, and I [00:05:00] got to see firsthand what the faith leaders and the business leaders were doing- Mm-hmm ... in the face of the AIDS pandemic. And I, I came home from that trip with this internal dissonance where it's just like, oh, man, I-
Mike Glenn: See, that's the pro- That's why I tell people, "Don't go on a mission trip."
Yeah. I'm telling you you went, it'll wreck your life-
Will Acuff: It'll mess you up ...
Mike Glenn: from now on.
Will Acuff: Yeah. And, and, and, and this was a mission trip where we didn't do anything.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: We didn't build anything. We didn't run a program. We literally sat at the feet of the local leaders.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And so it's the first time I'd also kind of not been the center, you know?
Um, and so I, I came back from that with this deep sense that I did not have a theology of neighbor and I needed to learn how to get one.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And so, uh, soon after, met and married my wife, and 20 years ago, we moved into a low-income neighborhood off of Dickerson Road in Nashville, um, in order to get a theology of neighbor by living it out.
And so, [00:06:00] uh, everything changed after that.
Mike Glenn: So what was your life plan before-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
the
Mike Glenn: Nairobi trip?
Will Acuff: Be a famous rock star. Yeah. And, and we were, you know, we were doing the things. Yeah. Uh, we were making that happen. Um, and then, you know, being confronted with this, uh, reality that the New Testament especially, and y- I'd make the argument the whole scripture, but, uh, Jesus seems to care a lot about what's going on with people's whole persons.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Right.
Will Acuff: Um, and that the gospel's not just gospel word- Mm-hmm ... it's also gospel deed. And, uh, that I had a significant gap between my head knowledge and my, my lived experience.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And so, you know, when we moved in, my wife, um, she jumped into the deep end. She got a job at the men's prison and became a job training specialist, so helping, uh, justice involved neighbors come home to employment.
Mm-hmm. We kept an open front door policy, so we were [00:07:00] doing life with these guys and their families. And we just consistently saw that we had image-bearing neighbors with God-given passion, creativity, and drive, but with no bridge of opportunity- Right ... to bring those to the marketplace in a way that would actually launch them out of poverty.
Mm-hmm. And so back in 2011, we, we launched our own nonprofit, uh, called Corner to Corner, where the focus became how do you equip underestimated neighbors- Mm-hmm ... with everything they need to launch their own small business so they can become their own economic engine? Mm-hmm. So fast-forward, we've now launched almost 2,000 of those entrepreneurs.
Last year we put 46.7 million back into the neighborhood economy. Uh, we've got, you know, research partnership at Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, most recently MIT. They're studying the work. Uh, and the big shift last year for us is we started taking it nationwide- Mm-hmm ... aimed at the church. Mm-hmm. And so it's called Kingdom [00:08:00] Founders.
And we're saying to churches, "Hey- You have long been doing relief work, you know, maybe food relief- Mm-hmm ... clothing. But relief is a great place to start and a terrible place to stop. Mm-hmm. You have to connect it, right? It's like, uh, uh, you've never gone to Home Depot to buy a w- a one-rung ladder, right?
Mm-hmm. Not very useful. We actually need to build up this pathway. And so I say to churches, "You don't have the time or the manpower to build out what we've built out." Mm. "But we've got a turnkey solution for you."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
Will Acuff: 100%. And guess what? You've got high capacity leaders in your church right now, CFOs, CMOs, who are sitting in the pews, and they're h- highly useful people who- Mm-hmm
don't feel useful on Sunday.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: And so how do we get their skills
Mike Glenn: off the bench? Or worse, see nothing on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday- Oh,
Will Acuff: 100% ...
Mike Glenn: that have n- that, that connects at all to Sunday.
Will Acuff: Yes, correct. That gets their-
Mike Glenn: So, so I behave myself- Yep ... on [00:09:00] Sunday-
Will Acuff: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: but it's a different world that Jesus doesn't have anything to do with- Yep
on, on the rest of the week.
Will Acuff: 100%. And so-
Mike Glenn: And the questions that we face, we- we're getting in midterm elections-
Will Acuff: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: of, of poverty, homelessness-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: uh, the price of everything-
Will Acuff: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: are, are totally disconnected from, from my faith and how I live out my faith.
Will Acuff: 100%.
Mike Glenn: So we think.
Will Acuff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
That's the lie we've been bought.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: Yeah. But Jesus doesn't want a part of your life.
Mike Glenn: No.
Will Acuff: He doesn't want 24 hours on Sunday.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: He wants the whole deal.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: Um-
Mike Glenn: As I, as I tell people, you don't stand at the foot of the cross and n- negotiate percentages. Yeah.
Will Acuff: Yeah. That's 100% true, right? Yeah. He wants your whole life because He is life.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: Um, and when you use your passions and your skills in alignment with who God made you to be-
Mike Glenn: Which are His gifts 100%. Which are His gifts-
Will Acuff: Yep. Yep ...
Mike Glenn: uh- Uh, it's, it's- To do that. It's- See, for me, it was Living Hope.
Will Acuff: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, [00:10:00] bunch of years ago, Scott Harris, who was our missions guy
Will Acuff: at the
Mike Glenn: time- Yeah, I know Scott.
Will Acuff: E- everybody knows Scott He w- he's the most famous- ... non-famous person in, in Nashville.
Mike Glenn: So, um, so I said, "Scott, you gotta find us an AIDS-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: ministry, or Nashville will not take us seriously." Hmm.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Because it was such a big issue in the- Mm-hmm ... music industry here.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So many people being affected b- when, in, in the hot...
And so I, I thought he would find a nonprofit here in Nashville that we would partner with. Yeah. He comes back and goes, "I found it." Mm-hmm. "And it's in South Africa."
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay. John Thomas, L- uh, Living Hope Church, uh, or Fish Hook Baptist Church, Living Hope is the ministry, uh, right across the, the, the street from Masiphumelele-
Will Acuff: Mm
Mike Glenn: which was, uh, a settlement. Half the people in there had AIDS.
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And, and so I was talking to John, "What got you into this?" He said, "Matthew 25 scared me [00:11:00] to death."
Will Acuff: Mm. Mm. Mm.
Mike Glenn: That I was gonna stand up in front of God- Yep ... and him say, "You did pretty well with the little Baptist Church I gave you. What about all the people across the street?"
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And so they started the hospice care. They started the hospital. Mm.
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: They developed care that- Mm-hmm ... literally people would come from all over the world to find out what you were doing to treat these- Yep ... AIDS patients- Yep ... 'cause they were having success. Then we had to go in... I say we had to, we got to go in, put a jobs program together.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... because they were getting better, leaving the hospital, going back to their village. Yep. So we taught them how, uh, to hydroponics.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, you know- Mm-hmm ... uh, raise crops th- they would sell to restaurants and- Yeah ... feed their families out of that, uh, using the, the, the great big water buckets- Yeah
uh, uh, and that kind of stuff. Yeah. So that was where it changed or, or started my own thinking. Yeah. This was a church doing-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: uh, what the government should have done, whatever- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and stuff. Yeah. But [00:12:00] they did it with such freedom and abandonment and-
Will Acuff: Yep. Yep ...
Mike Glenn: and, and resources that were readily available in that, "Hey, we've got to figure out...
Well, he does that." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. "Can you fig- Oh, yeah, I do that all the time." Yep. Yep. And it would be beautifully done.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and- Yeah ... and was all sitting here, here in the church.
Will Acuff: Yep. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: See, now one of the reasons that I, that I'm, that, uh, that I'm, I'm really eager, uh, uh, to have this conversation with you is when we talk about the future of the church- Mm-hmm
there, a tsunami's gonna hit the, gonna hit the church in the next- Mm-hmm ... 10 years or so that, that will radically change how we do church.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, and there's all kind of rivers and streams coming together. In response to that, uh, one of the things that we say to, uh, to, to churches is look around your community-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: find a problem- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... and solve it.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm. [00:13:00]
Mike Glenn: And it may be everything from these kids in this local school aren't- Mm-hmm ... up on reading level.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So we've got tutors who will go- Yep ... over there and do, and, and, and do the... But solve the problem-
Will Acuff: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: so that you become known as the church that did this.
Will Acuff: Yep. 100%.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and as a- Yeah, moving in
Will Acuff: love ...
Mike Glenn: as you know, uh, and as you s- as, as you've already mentioned- Most of our church members are gifted passionate and see no way to connect their faith- Yeah ... their skills in a meaningful way that makes a difference.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Anything. So you talk a lot about entrepreneurship.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay. How do you begin to help Joe Pew Sitter-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: uh, and his wife Jane-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: they come every Sunday, they're good people.
Will Acuff: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so first [00:14:00] what we do, we have a 10-week program that equips historically low income neighbors- Mm-hmm ... with the knowledge, tools, and networks. So who's your target customer?
What problem are you solving? That kind of thing.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: But we do it in a faith integrated way.
Mike Glenn: Okay. The, the, now those are the basic things you would find in any entrepreneur course. Cor-
Will Acuff: correct. Yep. Okay. It-
Mike Glenn: This is-
Will Acuff: Everywhere you go.
Mike Glenn: Yeah,
Will Acuff: yeah. And, and I remember we had one time a Stanford MBA graduate- Mm-hmm
sitting in our training, right? And, uh, he was, he was participating in how we train our facilitators.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: And halfway through the day he stood up and he said, "This is what I went into debt to learn how to do at Stanford?" And you're getting the same thing.
Mike Glenn: Y- that's right. Yeah.
Will Acuff: Right? So th- you know, these are building blocks.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. My, my point is- Yep ... these are solid proven principles-
Will Acuff: 100% ...
Mike Glenn: universal.
Will Acuff: Right. We integrate that with deeply, uh, you know, biblical faith principles. So for example, in week one when we talk about who you are as the founder- Mm-hmm ... we talk about how you were made on purpose by- Right ... a loving God [00:15:00] for a purpose.
Mm-hmm. In week two when we talk about who's your customer, we say, "Well, you're called to love your neighbor as you love yourself." Mm-hmm. Well, a great entrepreneur gets close enough to their neighbor to find out what their pain point is and solve it. Mm-hmm. You can do this as an act of love, and guess what?
They'll pay you for it. Mm-hmm. And so we integrate these deeper truths throughout. Uh, and so to somebody in a church pew, like we're, we're now in seven different communities around the nation, hope to be at 20 by the end of the year. Mm-hmm. Uh, what we do is we teach these, these local churches to recruit their business leaders so that the church staff doesn't have to run the program.
No, no. But these leaders do. And, and so what we say is, "All right, you've got three roles. You need a co-facilitator, the two people who are gonna help lead it. You need guest speakers to come in each week to speak from their subject matter expertise. And at the end of the program you need the mentors who walk with them after."
And they say, "Oh my gosh, but how are we gonna find people to give up five hours a week for 10 weeks?" I say, "Well, you just had a bunch [00:16:00] of people retire."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: You've got high capacity people who are now home, and three months in their wife is going, "Why are you here on a Tuesday?" I didn't marry you
Mike Glenn: for lunch.
Will Acuff: Right?
Mike Glenn: Like- I married you for life, but not for lunch. 100%.
Will Acuff: Those are your co-facilitators. Right. Get them in the game. And then your, your people who are mid-career, you might have a, a, a, you know, a c- a CFO who needs to be the finance guest speaker.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Bring them in that week. 'Cause what we also find is economic mobility is directly connected to who you know.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: Your network influences your net worth. Mm-hmm. And so if we build these bridges-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Will Acuff: we will see different outcomes.
Mike Glenn: But who, who, who wrote, who wrote the book, um, When Helping Hurts?
Will Acuff: Oh, yeah. The, Brian Fikkert
Mike Glenn: and the- Brian Fikkert,
Will Acuff: yeah ... yep, the Trauma Institute. His, his,
Mike Glenn: yeah, his, his thing is poverty is lack of access.
Will Acuff: Yes. Yep, yep.
Mike Glenn: I don't, I, I, I don't know who to call. Yep. I, I, I can't get to the people I need to get to.
Will Acuff: One- 100%. Mm-hmm. And so we change that, and we teach these churches [00:17:00] how to become the centers for this kind of work.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Uh, and then we help them to replicate our graduation, which is a big part of what we do.
We've had it at the Curb Center at Belmont. We've had it at the Titans stadium. We'll have 2 to 3,000 people come and celebrate their graduation. Mm-hmm. But on your way into the building, we have a business expo going, and it ends up being their first customers. Right. Their first orders, their first sales.
And all of this is about practically moving the needle for that family.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Both doing that in a community of love and support-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Will Acuff: but also doing that financially in
Mike Glenn: a practical way. But, but you do it, you do it in such a way, and this is so key, you do it in a way that, that restores the dignity of work-
Will Acuff: 100%
and the dig- You know, one
Mike Glenn: of the, one of the great things about the gospel is it gives a person's dignity back to them. Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: You know? Yeah. And, and this is a key component of that.
Will Acuff: Yeah, 100%. Mm-hmm. Because I, you know, I think entrepreneurship is amazing cauldron for your best to come forth.
Mm-hmm. And [00:18:00] if you can do that brave and scary thing while surrounded by people who are called by Jesus to love you well-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: you're not doing it alone. And so what often happens, 'cause no, no entrepreneur does it in a simple way, right? This is hard.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: And you need people to lean on. You need people who you can call.
You need that support.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And so what we find is people go, "Oh my gosh, I felt like I was gonna be alone in this, but you were here for me."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Uh, like one, one of our graduates, uh, Kayla, she came to us with a $30 Walmart juicer that you or I might have in our kitchen and an idea that she was gonna do an organic juice company.
'Cause she saw those, you know, tiny little bottles of juice, and she was like, "That's 12 bucks. I'm pretty sure the lemon and ginger- ... is not that. I think I can do that." Yeah. Well, well, fast-forward, she went through the class, learned all of our model, and she learned that she had to have distribution.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: And so after graduating, she got the smallest booth that she could get at the farmers market, 'cause she knew there'd be good foot [00:19:00] traffic.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Calls us a month in, "Oh my gosh, guys, I don't know what to do. This, this, you know, juicer for 30 bucks from Walmart is starting to smoke." "It wasn't, it wasn't meant for this volume.
Can you loan me the money-
Mike Glenn: Right
Will Acuff: Um, to upgrade my equipment." We loaned her $1,000, and it was a loan. She had to pay us back. We gave her 12 months to pay us back. Mm-hmm. She paid it back in six weeks.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, but again, it's the dignity- Mm-hmm ... of having paid back. Yep. I bought this machine.
Will Acuff: 100%. Yeah. It's hers.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: Well, so we were so impressed with her growth, we're, we partner with Goldman Sachs. They have a small business- Mm-hmm ... training program they lead- Mm-hmm ... in Manhattan. We told them, "You've gotta meet Kayla." They brought her up for their training. Day two of the training, I get a text early in the morning and it said, "Got 'em."
And I was like, "What is Kayla talking about?" 'Cause you know how sometimes a photo is delayed on the text? That's right. Right? Then the photo showed up, and it's a signed contract with Goldman [00:20:00] Sachs for 200 units of her juice, 'cause she happened to hear a staff person say they were doing- Right ... another conference next week.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: So she sold them, right? They end up being so blown away by her, they invited her to ring the bell at the New York Stock Exchange.
Mike Glenn: Oh my stars.
Will Acuff: So now Kayla's horizon, right? Kay- Just expanded tremendously. And, and Mike, now I, like I'm blown away by this. She has an order from them every single quarter for over 3,000 units of juice.
They're her biggest customer. She just hit a million in revenue.
Mike Glenn: Well, it do- it doesn't hurt that you have Goldman Sachs on, uh, as your reference there, huh? You wanna know how it w- Yeah, call Goldman Sachs. Yes. Ab- I, I take care of this ...
Will Acuff: absolutely. Yeah. We've been building this thing for a while. We- Yeah ... you know?
Um, but my, my point is, I think sometimes in the nonprofit space and in the church ministry space, we see our neighbors through a lens of pity. Right. And then we build relief-only solutions- Mm-hmm ... as if what [00:21:00] that neighbor, the best that that neighbor could hope for is stability.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: But no, no, we should be the people who see them as full image-bearers.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Will Acuff: And so we never see pity. We see potential.
Mike Glenn: Potential, right.
Will Acuff: And we see their redemptive arc.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Right? 'Cause that's how Jesus sees us. He says, "Oh, no, no, no, no." No "You think this is the story?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah. No. "Oh,
Will Acuff: we're just getting
Mike Glenn: started." No, yeah. Yeah.
Will Acuff: And, and that, so that's- The, um- ... what this is about
Mike Glenn: yeah, the, um- Uh, a- and we've talked about this earlier, this discipleship triangle. Uh-huh. This worship discipleship where God encounters us. It always starts with a God encounter somewhere that inspires us to study and learn more- Mm-hmm ... about this God who's encou- Well, the more time you spend with God- Mm-hmm
then you're gonna realize He's on a mission-
Will Acuff: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: to redeem the world. Mm-hmm. And I wanna join Him on this m- And it is in that moment of obedience-
Will Acuff: Yep, yep ...
Mike Glenn: where we learn some of the deepest and, and truest lessons. But what I have found out in my own life and in the lives of, of others who've experienced [00:22:00] this, it is this moment where you're realizing that you're working side by side- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
with Christ to unbreak this little part- Yep, yep ... of broken creation.
Will Acuff: Yep, yep.
Mike Glenn: To bring some kind of healing. Yep. And it's this side by side-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm, yeah ...
Mike Glenn: of, of where Christ has invited me into this redemptive mission.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Now, that drives me back to discipleship.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Because if I'm gonna do this, I gotta learn more, know more, do- Yep
and it, and then you show up on Sunday morning with a reason to be there.
Will Acuff: Yes. Yep.
Mike Glenn: Because most of our church members come on Sunday morning- Yeah ... and do not have a reason to be there. Yeah. We haven't seen God do anything.
Will Acuff: Yep. No. And, and
Mike Glenn: what- So, so now you're sitting in the pew going, "Kayla rang the bell-
Will Acuff: Oh
Mike Glenn: of the stock exchange."
Will Acuff: Yes. "
Mike Glenn: I need somebody to sing louder- Yeah ... to praise God for this journey that I've been witnessing."
Will Acuff: Yeah. Well, that's, that's the thing that I, I sometimes have a hard time explaining to people. I'm being played in tune by God.
Mike Glenn: [00:23:00] Yes.
Will Acuff: My life every day is dripping with purpose.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Right? And, and I... Like, worship for me is almost a constant state.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. '
Will Acuff: Cause I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, God."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You're not sitting in the pew going, "Bring worship to me."
Will Acuff: No, no. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, God. I get to have a front row seat- Yes ... to this amazing person- Yes ... you love?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Right? "And them unfold their journey and their potential, um, before you?"
And so i- and Kayla, Kayla now puts Bible verses on every single one of her bottles- Mm ... of juice, right? And so to me, this, this is what I'm trying to call churches into. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to say, "Hey, get some people off the bench. Help them put their discipleship into action. Put them in a place where they have to be Holy Spirit-dependent, moving by faith in the Lord."
Mm-hmm. And then watch how you bless a community, and you will have your own story of Kayla.
Mike Glenn: And as the city thrives, you will thrive as
Will Acuff: well. 100%. Yeah. Jeremiah. But also, I would [00:24:00] say, you know, I, I love that passage, I think it's Ephesians 3, um- Where he says, uh, "Now to him who is able to do far more than we could ever ask or imagine."
Mm-hmm. And that says, "According to the power at work in me- Mm-hmm ... through the Holy Spirit." And so there's this, this idea of, oh, he wants to do more than we can ask or imagine, but he's gonna use me- Yeah ... as the vehicle with him to do it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. It's, it's what I tell people, it's what you ha- would have asked for if you had known it was available.
Will Acuff: Yes. Yes. Yes. This is actually life.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Oh, I, I didn't even, even know you could ask for this.
Will Acuff: No, I've come that you may have life and have it to the full. Not someday when you die.
Mike Glenn: Yeah,
Will Acuff: yeah. Right? Like, hey, guess what? You're gonna have full life, but only after you die. No, no, no. It's gonna start now. Mm-hmm.
'Cause Jesus is at work in your life. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay. What are some of the myths that you have to dispel-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: before people can engage?
Will Acuff: Yeah. So one, if we're [00:25:00] talking about getting churches engaged in this kind of work, I would say one of the myths you have to dispel is that our, our low-income neighbors are only worthy of pity, like we said- Mm-hmm
are only worthy of relief. You need to dispel the myth that they're not gonna have an amazing life. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, the Lord has a big purpose for them. Let's see what He does. Mm-hmm. Um, I'd say the second myth that I, I run into, um, is that we, we believe that relief is all that the church can do because the real ministry is to get people there on Sundays.
Mm-hmm. Right? I run into that all the time. Mm-hmm. And we don't see Jesus hanging out in the synagogue too much in the New Testament, right? He's not just doing a Sunday ministry. He's out there with the people day in, day out. Mm-hmm. And so I think that's one of the myths we have to shatter, is that the church can gather on Sunday, but what do they do when they scatter?
Mike Glenn: Yeah, so 24/7, seven days a week.
Will Acuff: Yep, yep. Absolutely. And I'd say that the [00:26:00] last thing is I think churches often have a myth that they can't ask their volunteers for very much, um, that, that, like, maybe that, "Oh, our people really won't do it. We're having a hard enough time getting them to show up for small group or whatever."
Mike Glenn: Well- And- The, yeah. Oh, the, now, now, now you s- you, you stepped on my sweet spot here- Yeah, yeah ... 'cause that, that infuriates me.
Will Acuff: Yes. And, and I would say, no, no, no, you're not calling them into enough.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, exact- well, you're calling me into something that, one, I'm not any good at.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: I don't have the talents for.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Um, uh, y- you know, if, if you're working inside your giftedness- Mm-hmm ... you can work all day because- 100%. You're in the flow ... it comes easily. It's natural. Yep, yep. Uh, you know-
Will Acuff: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: uh, y- nobody had to tell you, "Man, work harder on the guitar."
Will Acuff: Yeah, no.
Mike Glenn: Uh, y- no, you love that. You, you- I lock
Will Acuff: myself in that room and
Mike Glenn: study all day
you g- all, all day long kind of thing. Yes,
Will Acuff: correct.
Mike Glenn: Uh-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: and no- nobody has to tell me, "Man, you need to, you need to spend more time in scri-" [00:27:00] That's what I love to do. And I was fortunate- Yeah ... I got a job where I got to do this all the time. Yep,
Will Acuff: yep. Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: Now, for, for, and you know, we tell this story all the time.
Uh, you know, you walk down the ch- you walk down in the, uh, the, the hall in, in the Baptist church, somebody grabs you and says, "We don't have a teacher in the children. You need to teach."
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Well, what happens in that person's life? One, I'm, I'm, I've made a decision I will never walk down this hall again.
Two, I start counting Sundays.
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Only 51 more Sundays and I'm out of here. Mm. Only 50 more Sundays and I'm out of here 'Cause this is not where I belong. Yeah,
Will Acuff: yeah.
Mike Glenn: I don't like anything about this. Yep,
Will Acuff: yep.
Mike Glenn: And, and you're not a bad person because of that.
Will Acuff: No, no.
Mike Glenn: But what happens in the life of the child-
Will Acuff: Yeah, yeah
Mike Glenn: who starts thinking, "Why doesn't this guy like me?"
Will Acuff: Mm. Mm.
Mike Glenn: Why is it a bother? Rather than, uh-
Will Acuff: Mm. [00:28:00]
Mike Glenn: That's good ... my son's kindergarten teacher was genetically edited to be a, a, an ed- a, a, a kindergarten teacher. Yeah,
Will Acuff: yep.
Mike Glenn: When she flew into the room-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: I, I almost got diabetes. I mean, it was just, "Oh, oh gosh, what do you do?"
But my son loved her. Mm. And what he learned under her.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, she was in the place God- Yep, yep ... literally created her to be.
Will Acuff: Yep, yep.
Mike Glenn: I'm not supposed to be there.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But see, what we do in the church is we fill positions. Uh-huh. We don't call people to their destiny. Yep. Now, you kept saying- Yep ... the, the, the people that we know who are in poverty-
Will Acuff: Yeah
Mike Glenn: are more w- than relief. The people who are in our pews-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: deserve more- Yep,
Will Acuff: yep ...
Mike Glenn: than to be counted as an attender when they've been called to do something-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: uh, remarkable, uh, with-
Will Acuff: Yeah, it's
Mike Glenn: life
Will Acuff: transformation ...
Mike Glenn: well, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I would tell people, you know, our people make [00:29:00] multimillion-dollar deals every week.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: They do this, they do that. Uh, and then we want them to come sit.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah It,
Mike Glenn: it is, that, that is, that is the guy who buried the talent
Will Acuff: Yeah. Yep
Mike Glenn: That is the same story
Will Acuff: Yep. 100%
Mike Glenn: I'm sorry. I got, got on my horse there a little bit, but-
Will Acuff: Yeah ... but this is, this is- But I,
Mike Glenn: you
Will Acuff: know, I think about that same- Yeah
I think about that same story in scripture, the talent story. I think in our low-income neighborhoods, we have 10 talent people who haven't been given the opportunity- Yes ... to put the talents to work Mm-hmm And so if we connect these dots, both groups flourish. And it, and in fact, in the, like, in our kind of internal documents, I have a thing where we lay out the transformation we seek to have happen-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Will Acuff: and it's the same exact transformation for the business leaders who come to help lead- Mm-hmm ... and volunteer, and for the participants who are taking the program- Oh,
Mike Glenn: yeah ...
Will Acuff: same transformation Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Same, same thing.
Will Acuff: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I mean, the [00:30:00] vision that, that we're trying to push with Kingdom Founders is, you know, there's 350,000 churches in America right now, give or take a couple.
Uh- Y-
Mike Glenn: you better hurry because a lot- Yeah ... then a lot of them not gonna take this transition. Uh, it's, it's-
Will Acuff: Yeah, yeah, that, that number might get lower Yeah But if we had 1,000 churches doing this work, we'd see a billion dollars of economic impact annually-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: that was sustainable because it was these small business owners who are learning these skills and growing their business.
And I think we would see, uh, disciples starting to put their faith into action and becoming true evangelists.
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah
Will Acuff: Right? They, they couldn't stop talking about what- Right ... they were seeing God doing
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Have you ever met that guy who's like, "Oh, man, my church said I need to invite people to church.
Ugh."
Mike Glenn: Yeah
Will Acuff: Right? Yeah Like, "No, no, no, no, no." You'd get people going, "You've gotta be in this room-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Will Acuff: and see what's happening here." Yeah. "In fact, I need you to be the guest speaker."
Mike Glenn: Right. "
Will Acuff: You're good at marketing."
Mike Glenn: Right. "
Will Acuff: Will you come be the guest speaker?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah, I want you to come. I want you to come help me train [00:31:00] this guy.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: This is what you do, and he's doing the same thing- Yep ... with widgets.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: And you do widgets, and I want you to meet this guy.
Will Acuff: Yep, absolutely. I mean, recently, uh, we had, you know, Burke Nihill, who's the CEO of the Tennessee Titans here.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: He came and was a guest speaker, called me after, had like a r- you know, profound experience- Mm-hmm
being in that room, and now we're partnered with the Titans, and in their new stadium, we're gonna have access to 12,000 square feet where we can run our program when the Titans aren't playing there on Sunday, and we're working out how to give our entrepreneurs access to the fans on game day.
Mike Glenn: Ooh,
Will Acuff: yeah.
And that happened because he encountered that experience. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Right? Um, and so again, getting your people off the bench, letting them use their giftedness.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Now,
you're, you're saying, hey, we've got, we've got this or the Titans. We got 12,000 square feet, da, da, da, da. Yeah. If we go and talk to vice president, general manager-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: he will say to us [00:32:00] All I did was open the door
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: I didn't do anything. You and I are celebrating that
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: But he's going This was, this was an easy thing-
Will Acuff: Yes
Mike Glenn: I could do.
Will Acuff: Uh-huh. Yep.
Mike Glenn: And not realize the, the opportunity that he's opening up. Yep. And my guess is there are hundreds of thousands of church members-
Will Acuff: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: who would, who would come and say to us, "Listen, the only thing I did was explain-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: you know, how, how you put a purchase order together- Yep ... to this guy," and-
Will Acuff: Yep.
Yep. We had... You know, we, we did a partnership with a church in Charlottesville, Virginia last year, The Pointe, um, VA, and they've now graduated 59 entrepreneurs. Mm-hmm. And one of their early stories that I love to hear was they had a dad who was, uh, teaching his kids, uh, math, and he came up with a card game using flashcards.
Right. Mm-hmm. And he was like, "This is good. I might have a business here." So he came to their class. Well, the church had a designer, a young professional- Right ... who [00:33:00] helped him design the cards, and then because they were in Charlottesville, they had a math professor at UVA who helped him improve the quality of the math, right?
Mm-hmm. Fast-forward, this guy has sold over 500 units of these cards. And so I love the vision that the church has got all these people involved- Yeah, yeah ... and this guy is gonna be able to send his kids to college off the money that he made from this idea. From being, from
Mike Glenn: teaching the math. And if you talk to the designer, he would say, "It, it wasn't a big, wasn't a big deal."
Yeah, it was
Will Acuff: an hour
Mike Glenn: of work. It, a c- couple hours of work. Yes. And it was kind of fun 'cause he was doing stuff. Yep, yep. Talk to the math professor, it was, "Oh, this was basic," you know? 100%. "I th- I threw a couple of the additional problems in there." Yep,
Will Acuff: yep. And, and that church is telling me, "Hey, we've got business leaders who've been going for 10 years, never volunteered to do this."
Mike Glenn: Right. They'll come to this.
Will Acuff: They'll come to this.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And then they even had, this was a f- a crazy story. They had someone, uh, who, w- a business leader in the community who wasn't going to church, heard about this, came on a Sunday, happened to see a video- Mm-hmm ... about one of the graduates, [00:34:00] made a $20,000 donation on his first visit to the church, 'cause he said, "If a church is doing this- That's exactly right
this is where I want to get behind- Mm-hmm ... with my resources." Mm-hmm. And so I think there's a thing here where the church has to be the tangible hands and feet of Jesus- There you go ... in this moment. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, I mean, federally speaking, we've got a trillion dollars in cuts that are rolling out right now- Mm-hmm
that are gonna affect our neighbors in dynamic ways. Mm-hmm. Simultaneously, 59% of Americans can't put their hands on $1,000 of emergency cash-
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm ... right now today. And so w- if the government is not getting involved as much as they used to, who is better positioned
Mike Glenn: than the local church- Well, I was even saying, the, the purist in me says that never should've been the government's job anyway.
Will Acuff: Yeah, but-
Mike Glenn: But, but when the church abdicated it a couple of generations ago-
Will Acuff: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: then we've gone through this horrible transition of what- Mm-hmm ... and the government has torn down families, wrecked lives, all in the name of rescue and help.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Nobody's better at this than the [00:35:00] church.
Will Acuff: Yeah, no one should be, but we- Yeah
stopped our expertise. Uh,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Right,
Will Acuff: right. And, and, and there's this idea of, like, it pains me But like churches should be known as the most innovative love of neighbor people on the planet. Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: That should be our reputation.
Mike Glenn: And for years we were.
Will Acuff: Yeah. Oh-
Mike Glenn: I mean, I mean- ... all
Will Acuff: the hospitals that started-
Mike Glenn: The hospitals- Yes
colleges-
Will Acuff: Yep, 100% ...
Mike Glenn: public schools, all of that. Yeah. All of that came from us. Yeah.
Will Acuff: I mean, even the, the ancient Roman letters-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: you know, saying, "Hey, we've got disease in our community," and the only people who stayed were the Christians. Were the Christians. Everybody else bounced. Uh, but we, we've not seen that, and to me, it breaks my heart when I, I
Y- you know, sometimes I'll be talking to a pastor and he'll say, kind of in a condescending way, "Oh man, that's great, that mercy ministry stuff. That should, that's an adornment to the real work of the gospel." And I'm like, "Oh, we've got an anemic understanding-
Mike Glenn: Yeah, that's it. That's right, yeah ...
Will Acuff: of the lived reality of- Mm-hmm
Jesus Christ-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: if that's how we position it."
Mike Glenn: Yes. [00:36:00] Yeah. So, uh, I'm a pastor. I happen to see this.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: What do, what do I do next?
Will Acuff: Oh, man. I mean, this is not a Google Voice number, but my cellphone is 615-498-4987. That's my- You're a brave
Mike Glenn: man.
Will Acuff: My real, my... That's my real deal phone number. Call me. No joke.
Yeah. I will help you get this going. Okay. Um, and if you're a pastor who goes, "Man, I don't know if we're ready for that"- Mm-hmm ... my, my encouragement would be find a nonprofit in your local community that's doing mean- meaningful work. Mm-hmm. Go meet with their executive director and say, "How do we partner with you today?"
Yeah. Don't wait. Sometimes the church, I think, can be guilty of ready, aim- Mm-hmm ... aim, aim. Mm-hmm. Nine months later, the board's still aiming, but we haven't
Mike Glenn: done anything. Well, the way, the way that you learn to kill things as a pastor-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: is refer it to a committee.
Will Acuff: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: If I really don't wanna do this, I'll give it to a committee to study, but you know it's deader than Hamlet.
Oh,
Will Acuff: yeah. What's, what's that old saying? Check every state and every city, [00:37:00] you'll not find a statue made to a committee. You
Mike Glenn: can't see.
Will Acuff: Right? Uh-
Mike Glenn: I haven't heard that one yet.
Will Acuff: Yeah. That's, that's real.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: And so my, my point is you have people in your neighborhood right now who are hurting.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And you might say, "Well, I'm in a suburban community, you know, my neighbors are pretty well off."
Well, the, the guy who's working the drive-through window at McDonald's-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: he needs your help.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Right? There are people in the service industry in your community who need your help. Now- Find a way to plug
Mike Glenn: in ... okay, now, the flip side.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: The flip side of that is I know of people who you and I would say incredibly successful.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: They do a lot of things well.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: What they don't do is in their mind, they don't make a difference.
Will Acuff: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay, I've done this and I've done this. I've got that certificate and that trophy- Yeah ... and all of that, but I don't make a difference.
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: I, I'm not gonna leave anything behind. Mm-hmm. And they're looking for the opportunity- Yeah
to invest in something-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: that ends up with life transformation.
Will Acuff: Yep. [00:38:00] Yeah, absolutely. I, I mean, I'm a big believer that if God sends it to you, he wants to send it through you.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: And so again, find-
Mike Glenn: And you know, I used to get in, in trouble all the time when I was a pastor. People would come to me and go, "Hey, you know what our church needs to do?"
And I would put my arm around him and go, "I'll be eager to see the business plan you bring to me."
Will Acuff: Yes, yes. "
Mike Glenn: Whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, no, no. God didn't give me that itch." Yeah. "He gave it to you."
Will Acuff: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Correct. "And he wants to give it to you so he can give you the scratch-" Yep "... so y'all can work on this together."
Will Acuff: Yeah,
Mike Glenn: I- "This is n- not my deal." W-
Will Acuff: 100%. I mean, in my life, you know, with Corner to Corner in the non-profit world-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: I, I raise money all the time.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: And I don't have, like a, a method. All I'm looking for is if your heart beats faster when you hear about this work- Mm-hmm ... that's a good indication that the Holy Spirit's telling you to invest here.
Mm-hmm. If it's not, go find where it is. Mm-hmm. And so to the person who says, "Man, I've been really successful. I've got excess. What do I do?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: I would say look around your community and find [00:39:00] what pulls on your heart.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: That is a good
Mike Glenn: indication. And do the same, and use the same kind of mind that you would take, "If I put this $10 to work here-" Yep
what kind of-
Will Acuff: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: payoff, harvest, investment will it have?
Will Acuff: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: Have the same kind- Yep ... of discipline about your, about- Yeah ... about your funds there.
Will Acuff: Absolutely, and ask return on investment questions. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I think there's a movement in the non-profit world to get better at data.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Right? And so Corner to Corner, we're huge on data.
I mentioned our, our, our partners. Like, I can tell you pre and post-class- Mm-hmm ... seven of seven statistically significant markers show improvement- Excellent ... as measured by Vanderbilt. So ask the tough questions. Mm-hmm. Right? And, and I would also say don't ask questions about overhead. Ask questions about impact.
Right. There's this myth- Life change ... in the non-profit world. Mm-hmm. It's like, "Oh, we only want 10% to go to salaries of the staff." If, if you want to hire dynamic people who can radically shift- Right ... the needle, pay them well, right?
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: So don't, don't care about that as much as you care about impact. Or, [00:40:00] or, or,
Mike Glenn: or if it's, uh, or if it's a situation where the staff is the talent.
Will Acuff: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Is the
Will Acuff: Yes. Yeah. 100%.
Mike Glenn: You
Will Acuff: know? So there's this world where, uh, I think we, we hamstring the nonprofits.
Mike Glenn: Sure.
Will Acuff: But so I would just ask how they measure impact-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: and, and take a look at their annual reports, those kind of things, and then get in the game.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Go see it in action.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, go do something.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay. I want to change-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: topics totally.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: On stuff.
Will Acuff: I'm
Mike Glenn: comfortable with that. Uh, so, so, so just, just to put a marker here.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Website?
Will Acuff: Uh, kingdomfounders.co. Dot, .co.
Mike Glenn: C-O. Dot co, C-O. Okay. Mm-hmm. All right. So go there if you wanna know more about that, but I'll... But before I let Will go, I want to talk to you about your new book, No Elevator to Everest.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Because we cer- we s- uh, we share a common burden.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, I have a special needs granddaughter- Yeah ... Rowan Glenn.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, the special needs building at Brentwood- Yeah ... Baptist Church is named for my granddaughter.
Will Acuff: Yeah, that's awesome. [00:41:00]
Mike Glenn: Uh, and she reminds me of that- Mm-hmm ... that she has a building named after her.
And I was there 30- It's a power
Will Acuff: move.
Mike Glenn: I like it ... I have 32 years, and I have nothing- Well ... there named after me.
Will Acuff: Yeah, you should get a parking lot
Mike Glenn: at least. So, so she, she The Mike
Will Acuff: Glenn parking lot.
Mike Glenn: So, so, so in h- in her school, you know, they got that little book for her in school going, "Hey, my name is Rowan.
This is my mother and my brother-" Mm-hmm ... and da, da. And the last thing is, "Here's something else you may want to know about me." Turn it over. "I have a building named after me." Yeah.
Will Acuff: Oh, that's beautiful.
Mike Glenn: Uh, you have, uh, adopted children.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, special needs. Yeah. Both of them special needs?
Will Acuff: Uh, no, I've got a typically developing 10-year-old daughter now.
10-year-old daughter. And a 14-year-old now with- Ooh ... with special needs.
Mike Glenn: Okay.
Will Acuff: Um, both adopted domestically out of Memphis. Uh, did not know that my son had any disabilities until he stopped sleeping through the night around age two and a half. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that went on for about three years. Uh, that started us on that journey.
Hmm. Um, fast-forward, he's got [00:42:00] multiple diagnoses, um, autism, intellectual disability, severe ADHD, uh, as well as a rare neuromuscular genetic disease. He's only one of 50 known cases in the world.
Mike Glenn: Wow.
Will Acuff: Um, and it stretched us beyond the breaking point. Um, and we got... And what the book talks about is our family getting to a place where, you know, uh, I was doing everything I could, but I had learned a find-a-problem, fix-it model of life.
Mike Glenn: Right. Sure. And, and we're good at that. Yep. Man, put my fixing hat
Will Acuff: on. 100%. That's what, that's what guys do. And, and it led to a lot of success-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: in some areas, but my wife was, um, going through clinical depression- Mm-hmm ... and she, she's blessed me to, to speak about this. She's going through that. I'm trying to fix her and failing.
Mm-hmm. Then I'm trying to fix my son and failing, and I had this radical shift that I would ascribe to the Holy Spirit that reconnected me with God's unconditional love for me- Mm-hmm ... [00:43:00] reconnected me to myself, and then reframed how I interacted with, with my son, with my wife, and now with everybody else, where they're not a problem to solve, they're a person to know and enjoy.
Mm-hmm. And so I enter into that in a completely different space. Um, but it, it started me on a healing process by which, um, I radically changed everything I thought I knew about quiet times and devotional rhythms. Mm-hmm. Um, I kind of moved into contemplative faith.
Mike Glenn: One of, uh, one of the old stories I read one time about a man visiting a, a home for special needs children.
Somebody said, "What's wrong with this child?"
Will Acuff: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: And the nun looked at him and said, "Which child?" "Oh, the child you're holding." Hmm. "Oh, this is Thomas."
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Mm. "And Thomas is being Thomas." Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm. Yes. That's, that's exactly right. Yes. That, that I can, I can be [00:44:00] with my son as is-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Will Acuff: and meet him where he is today, um, and know him and enjoy him.
Um, and, and what I would describe it as, I had an externally focused faith, right?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Um, but this reconnected me with, oh, man, if I'm told that the Holy Spirit lives and dwells in me-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: but my whole life I've only learned how to ignore anything in here and only do out here- That's right,
Mike Glenn: only push through,
Will Acuff: right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ... right,
Will Acuff: then I'm missing all this opportunity- Mm-hmm ... to be led by the Lord. And so what does it look like? And so the book is a series of, you know, stories from our family, and then daily practices that you can do to connect with self and God, um, and to- Such
Mike Glenn: as?
Will Acuff: Yeah, so one, um, that I do almost every morning is, uh, I, I get up, I have a, a coffee maker in our bedroom so I don't wake up the kids.
That was a, a story I told myself was, "I can't do a quiet time 'cause I'll wake up the kids." That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Right? So I was like, "No, no, no, I'm gonna own this." Mm-hmm. Coffee maker in the bedroom, now I [00:45:00] can do my quiet time. Get up earlier, and the first thing I do is I sit in this chair and I ask myself, "Man, what am I feeling the most today?"
Mm-hmm. And maybe it's a little fear, because I know we've got that meeting with his school and then a doctor's appointment, and before I know it, I'm catastrophizing on into the future. Right.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: Right? But I get still enough to go, "Oh, what am I feeling? Oh, it's this." Okay, do I know what this is coming from- Hmm
enough to start to name it and then give it over to the Lord?
Mike Glenn: The power to name.
Will Acuff: Yeah. Because you... I love that, that, that passage, "Cast your anxieties on the Lord- Mm-hmm ... for he cares for you." Well, tell me how.
Mike Glenn: That's
Will Acuff: right. Right? I always wanted that. What's that next verse, right? And what I've found is I can't cast what I can't name.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: And so right away, I start the day with naming that and giving it over to the Lord- Mm-hmm ... and then moving in trust from the very first minute my feet hit the floor.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: So that's one of the practices that's outlined in the book.
Mike Glenn: Okay. [00:46:00] Yeah. Awesome. Um, how- How do, how do we be friends with you and your wife?
Will Acuff: Hmm I mean, you and me personally- Who has- ... or people in the world?
Mike Glenn: Yeah I, I, okay. Y- okay, one.
Will Acuff: Yeah
Mike Glenn: Uh, as, as a neighbor-
Will Acuff: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: who knows a family who's dealing with special- Yeah ... how do I be a friend
Will Acuff: to them? Great question. Woo, you know, I've never been asked that question. That's a great question. Yeah, I, I would start by saying I think in Christian circles we got really good at being casserole Christians, right?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Will Acuff: So I can, we can do a meal plan for 30 days.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: But the nature of disability life is you're talking-
Mike Glenn: No ...
Will Acuff: like my, my updates are always the same.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: Still hard, right?
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Will Acuff: Uh, there's some really beautiful moments-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Will Acuff: and a lot of really hard ones.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: Um, and so I would say, one is what does it look like to accompany a family like this?
Mike Glenn: Right. Wrap [00:47:00] around, what we call in the adoptive communities-
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... wrap around family.
Will Acuff: And, and some of that is, is physical needs.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: What is the wear and tear on your house that you can't keep up with-
Mike Glenn: Right ... '
Will Acuff: cause of the nature? What's the, the nature of your medical bills- Mm-hmm ... year over year, right?
What does it look like to give those parents respite?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: There's tons of practical ways. And then the accompaniment piece, I mean, is like how do we as Christians hold space for those who are going through hard things for a long time?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: That means, hey, when could I just show up and be with you?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Will Acuff: What does that look like?
Mike Glenn: Well, Jeannie and I had twins.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, we, we have never figured out how two on two and you're still outnumbered.
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. We never could figure that out.
Will Acuff: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: We had a lady in our church who would blow in-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: just unannounced, whenever. The front door- Mm-hmm
would fly open-
Will Acuff: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: and we would hear, "Baby, Grandma's here."
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: And she [00:48:00] would walk over to Jeannie. She'd say, "Baby," and it was always baby, "Baby, I got two hours. Grandma's got two hours. Starting right now, I'm gonna keep your baby for two hours."
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Now, two hours and one minute, Grandma's gone.
Will Acuff: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: But two hours. Yeah. And it was things that Jeannie could take a bath.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Yep. Jeannie could run to the grocery store. Yeah. And just... And she would fly back out.
Will Acuff: Yep.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. But to hear Jeannie tell it, those random stop-ins of-
Will Acuff: Yep, yep ...
Mike Glenn: relief saved her mental state-
Will Acuff: Oh ...
Mike Glenn: more than once.
Will Acuff: We, I mean, I could tell you story after story.
We had one period where the car was dying. Uh, we had, we live in an old house off of Dickerson Road- Mm-hmm ... you know, historically tough neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Uh, we were finding rats in our crawl space, had to deal with that. The car is dying, the rats are here. Uh, it's feeling a little bit apocalyptic. And then the roof starts leaking from one of our tornadoes in the area.
Of course. Right? [00:49:00] And I remember thinking, "Okay, Lord, what are you gonna do here?" Mm-hmm. Right? 'Cause I didn't have any answers. Mm-hmm. Because by the way, I also picked a lucrative career going into nonprofit. Oh, that's right, yeah. Right? Um- And so, and, and my car was literally zip-tied together at the time. So fast-forward, in the course of one month, I get a check in the mail from my old Sunday school teacher from when I was in third grade, who's on a fixed income.
He's retired, him and his wife. Yeah. And he said, "Hey, we came into some random money, and the Lord told us that y'all needed it." Right? That took care of the rats. Then I met with a friend and his mentor. I'd never met his mentor. Mm-hmm. Turned out he was in construction. He said, "Will, just send me the phone number of the person you're, you're, you got a roof quote for."
I never saw a bill. We got a new roof, right? And then my car's breaking down. I go to meet with a, a, a, a, a supporter for Corner to Corner. He sees my car and he goes, "Will, that's the kind of car I wouldn't park my car next to." Right? [00:50:00] "You're making, you're making me nervous." He said, "What are we gonna do about that?"
And I said, "Well, actually I've been saving, and I'm, I'm going down to see my brother- Mm-hmm ... who lives in Florida, and I'm, uh, he's in the car world, and I'm buying a used car off of him." Um, and he goes, "Well, so you're... W- how are you gonna pay for it?" I said, "Well, I've got a little saved- Mm-hmm ... and we're gonna do a car note."
And he goes, "No, no, no. How much is the car note gonna be?" And I told him. He handed me a check. Mm. In the course of a month. Mm-hmm. And so the, the, the Lord has used the saints to love our family so tangibly- Mm-hmm ... over so many years that, like, my whole life exists through the goodness of the Lord. Full stop.
Mm-hmm. Right now my son, he needs full-time, uh, you know, care. Mm-hmm. 24/7. He's currently at a, a, a disability-focused boarding school, right? Uh, and thankfully it's, it's about an hour away, so we still see each other all the time. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that school is around 8,000 a month [00:51:00] Another friend said, "Hey, I, I, you're never gonna see a bill.
Just send-- tell me where to send the check. I sold the company. You don't need to worry about it." Over and over and- Mm ... over again. And so, uh, I, I would just say if you know of a family who's, who's got a, a kid that they're raising with disabilities, there is no end to how you can come alongside of them.
Mm-hmm. As simple as a meal or doing some laundry for them-
Mike Glenn: Cutting
Will Acuff: grass ... a respite.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Oh, yeah. All the, all
Will Acuff: the way up to- All those, all those things ... to the kind of things I'm talking about.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Because more times than not, it's walking out day after day and seeing the grass that needs to be cut- Yep,
Will Acuff: yep
Mike Glenn: that becomes the overwhelming burden.
Will Acuff: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: And-
Will Acuff: It's the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.
Will Acuff: Because, you know, the reality, Mike, and, you know, my son, he almost, he almost died back in March from his rare disease. Oh. He was in Vanderbilt eight days- Mm ... um, getting his kidneys and, and back functioning [00:52:00] properly.
Mm-hmm. And we can handle that kind of crisis. Yeah. Like we- Yeah ... you know, we mount up. We know how to do it. Eight days can be
Mike Glenn: tough,
Will Acuff: eight days. Yeah, but we're, we're gonna do it, and then you come home, uh, to, oh, man, the, the yard.
Mike Glenn: 24 care, 24 care and everything else.
Will Acuff: And, and all of that, and you start going, "Woo," right?
And so yeah, I think there's just, there's tremendous opportunity- Mm-hmm ... for the saints to be sources of God's love for these families.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, one of my, one of my favorite stories is in one of my first churches. Uh, friend of mine named Jesse, any time there was trouble in the family-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: a death or whatever- Mm-hmm
he would show up and say, "Give me your shoes."
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And he would polish everybody's shoes.
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? And, and I asked him one he said, well, he said, you know, he said, "When my dad died-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: I didn't have time to polish mine. I looked at my suit and I looked down at my feet and I said, 'Those, those shoes look awful.'"
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And he said, "So I just started doing this." And it, it, to him [00:53:00] it was no big deal. Yeah. "Just give me your shoes." Yeah. "I'll polish them." Yeah. But the story that came from that is a friend of mine said, he said, "Do you know what happened after my wife died?"
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: I said, "No." He said, "You know, Jesse came over and polished my shoes."
He said, "He brought them back-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: and they looked like a brand-new penny." Mm. He said, "This... And I put them on, we did the funeral, and I'm sitting there next to her grave-
Will Acuff: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: and I'm thinking to myself- Mm ... I don't know what I'm gonna do.
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: I'm, I, I'm just lost. And I heard the Lord whisper to me, 'I took care of your shoes.'"
Will Acuff: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Don't worry about it. Mm. I took care of your shoes. Yeah. I'll take care of everything- Amen and hallelujah ... else, all that stuff.
Will Acuff: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, it has been, it has been a thrill to have you. Yeah, thank you. Hope people come back. Your book, No Elevator to Everest.
Will Acuff: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Excellent, excellent. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being here, friend.
Will Acuff: Thank you for having [00:54:00] me.
