Ministry Fatigue + What Covid Taught Us About the Local Church feat. Clay Stauffer
In this insightful conversation, Clay Stauffer and Mike Glenn discuss the crucial distinction between preparing for ministry versus repairing from it. Drawing from Clay’s personal experiences during his sabbatical, they emphasize the importance of intentional rest for pastors to maintain long-term health in their ministries. They also explore how the COVID-19 pandemic has brought about significant changes in congregations and sparked new approaches to ministry. From varying services styles to online worship, they reflect on how churches have adapted to meet the evolving needs of their communities. Whether you’re a church leader or interested in the future of ministry, this conversation offers valuable insights and practical takeaways.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I'm the president of the Engage Church Network, and we are joined today by Clay Stauffer, who's the senior pastor at Woodmont Christian Church here in Nashville. You may remember we talked to Clay earlier about, uh, his church's response and his personal involvement in the sh- in the shooting at the Covenant School there.
And, um, and while I was a guest at his church, what, last week, two weeks ago? Yeah,
Clay Stauffer: a couple Sundays.
Mike Glenn: Uh, that church is still dealing with the fallout, and several of your members pointed out, you know, this family and this family are, are still dealing with that. So, uh, one of the things that, that we wanna talk with Clay about, uh, after I let him do a, a quick introduction of himself, is- How we deal with this lingering stress of, of ministry.
We, we talk a lot about how we repair ministers and how we restore ministers, and we want to [00:01:00] spend a lot more time talking about how we prepare the ministers rather than spend so much time repairing them. Uh, because we lose ministry, they- we have to bring them out of their church, we have to send them away, uh, and it'd be a lot more cost-effective and a lot more meaningful, I think, if we could prepare them.
So, uh, let's begin by letting you do a quick introduction of who Clay Storfer is.
Clay Stauffer: Uh, good to be back with you, Mike Thank you for preaching, uh- ... this summer while I was, uh, I've been on sabbatical. This is actually my, my final week. But, um, I, uh, was born and raised in Memphis, Tennessee, went to college at TCU, uh, seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary, and I am about to begin my 18th year as senior pastor of Woodmont Christian Church.
Mm-hmm. Uh, they called me... Actually, I was 26 when they called me, 27 when I started. Um, and so about to start year 18, and, um, it's been, uh, it's been quite a journey, and I'm feeling renewed, refreshed. And, uh, I've got Greg Jones preaching this weekend, and then I'm back on the 18th. Yeah, the [00:02:00] president of Belmont, sure.
That's right. He's a pretty good preacher as well. Um- I, I hear that So, uh, glad to have Greg come back, and, um, then I'll, I'll, I'll be back, uh, back in the saddle next week. All right. And, um, and, uh, and ex- excited to be here, and real excited about what you're doing with Engage Church Network- Yeah ... and, uh, with the resources and the encouragement.
And, um, just great to be back talking with you. Good.
Mike Glenn: I'm,
Clay Stauffer: I'm
Mike Glenn: glad
Clay Stauffer: you're
Mike Glenn: here. Let's, uh, you, you mentioned your own sabbatical. Tell me about the sabbatical policy of Woodmont.
Clay Stauffer: So I had a sabbatical after my first five years, uh, at Woodmont, and that sabbatical was three months, um, after five years. And when I came back, uh, the board chair pulled me aside and said, "Hey, what do you think about doing, uh, six weeks every three years?"
And I thought, you know, that, that, that sounds good. Okay. That feels better. Uh, because it comes around a little more often. And, uh, I've also said, if you can just take a three-month sabbatical a- and you're a local church pastor and, uh, and you don't miss your people, and it's not starting to bother you, you might be in the wrong, uh, profession.
Yeah. That, that
Mike Glenn: might say more than you want it to [00:03:00] say. So we, so
Clay Stauffer: we moved to six weeks every three years. So, uh, 2015, 2018, 2021, and now 2024. Uh, they give me six weeks in the summer, and it's basically a time, uh, to ref- refresh, to unplug, uh, to plan ahead, uh, sermon, sermon series- Mm-hmm ... to do some, uh, deep thinking about the church and where it is and what the next chapter's gonna have in store.
It's also a good time just to be with family. Uh, I have three children, uh, 14, 12, and 8, so to get to spend some time with them. We traveled and, um, and so it, it's been great. And I really appreciate the fact that Woodmont gives me that, uh, every three years, because it allows me to reset, to recharge. Mm-hmm.
And that's what I've been doing this summer.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Make sure you're running to the right place. That's right. And the, you know, the ladder's on the right wall and, and all those kind of things. So what, what did you focus on, uh, this, this particular time?
Clay Stauffer: So my priorities, uh, this, [00:04:00] this particular sabbatical, uh, was first of all to, to rest.
It's amazing in ministry, I think you told me this after retirement, but just how tired you can get. Mm-hmm. And so the first couple of weeks, uh, I, I did a lot of sleeping. Right. At least sleeping in. Mm-hmm. And kinda got caught up on rest. Um, then it was, it was basically time to, to do some spiritual practices, reading, uh, reading scripture, prayer, um, thinking about the things that I've done in ministry, the things that Woodmont has done, um, how I can't continue to be the same minister as the church has grown- Right
as I've been to get it to where it is. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, and so did a lot of that, and then also some writing. Uh, trying to work on a new book project. And so having dedicated time to write is really hard to find in ministry. You can crank out articles or blogs- Right ... but it's hard to really sit down and, and, and work on a book.
And so I got, uh, the chance to write. So all those things, um- And it's amazing how fast six weeks goes by. Oh, gosh. [00:05:00] Uh, but, but also to get to hear, you were one of the, one of the ministers, but to actually get to ... I wasn't there, but to get to tune in and hear the sermon series. We had a sermon series called What the World Needs Now, and all the ministers that came in, Woodmont ministers and outside ministers- Mm-hmm
got to address that question. And, uh, it was really nice to actually be able to hear those messages and not just- Right, to sit there, let it
Mike Glenn: wash over you- That's right ... and you not have to do anything to, to, to make it happen. Not be the one
Clay Stauffer: giving the message- That's right ... which is a different dynamic.
Okay. And so I, I enjoyed that as well. So it's been a time to grow, uh, to renew, and, um, and to, to get ready for the next chapter.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You know, I, I tell people often, you know, I was at Brentwood for 32 years. I actually pastored four or five churches at the same address. That's right.
Clay Stauffer: That's right.
Mike Glenn: And, uh, and it's interesting that, that you're now saying the next chapter of Woodmont's history, they're gonna be a different church, therefore you have to be a different kind of pastor.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. My father, uh, Roy Stauffer, he serves on my staff at Woodmont. Mm-hmm. He was in Memphis for 35 years, and I used to say, "Well, a [00:06:00] lot of ministers move around. Why, you know, why did, why didn't you move around?" Mm-hmm. He had the chance to move around, but he said, "You know, I just stayed in the same place, and the, the people would just kinda, you know, the, the church would change."
Yeah, the church changes. And that's true. That's not ... There are people that are tried and true, have been at churches for decades. They're the pillars. They're the backbones. But new people come in, they bring new ideas, new energy, new leadership, and, um, and so, uh, th- there's a lot of truth to that, that the, the mix of your congregation as it grows, it changes, and you have to change as well.
Uh, Stephen Covey said you gotta sharpen the saw. Right. And too many ministers find themselves too tired, too stressed, too worn out to sharpen the saw.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: And so, uh, that's something that I tried to do this summer. I try to do it on a regular basis, but having the six weeks off allowed me to do that.
Right.
Mike Glenn: Well, what, what's the one thing you're gonna be taking away from, from your sabbatical?
Clay Stauffer: I think, uh, I've done a lot of thinking about the many things that we commit to, both in the church and in the community. [00:07:00] Uh, part of being a pastor, especially at a big church, is you're a part of the community.
You serve on boards. You are active in, you know, different, uh, organizations. And so trying to be realistic about what I can take on, what I need to say no to, and, and how do I honor my primary responsibilities as visionary, preacher, um, pastor, uh, pouring into the staff- Husband ... equipping the leadership- Father
husband- Friend. ... father, friend. You know, we wear a lot of hats. Yeah. A lot of hats. Yeah. And so trying to find that balance. We talk about balance a lot. We're not as good at actually ha- having balance. So the one thing that I'm bringing back is a sense of- There are certain things that I have to do, and I have to do them well.
And there are other things that I might like to do, but I might not be able to take them on.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Clay Stauffer: A- and so y- you've been helpful in our conversations over the years to get be- getting better at what do you say yes to, what do you say no to, but being very intentional about how I invest and spend my time, and the things that I [00:08:00] might wanna do but I just can't take on.
Mike Glenn: Right. That, that you might even be good at. That's right. But you just don't have the capacity- And as our s- ... uh, to do that ... our church
Clay Stauffer: has grown, our staff has grown. Uh, I have an executive pastor who's very talented. Um, I have other staff members that are really gifted, and so trying to empower them to use their strengths, and that means delegating and letting go of things that maybe I did for a long time- Well, and investing in the
Mike Glenn: minister-
that I just can't keep doing ... who does the ministry rather than actually doing the ministry.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. And, and historically- And that's a different- ... that's been the difference between- Yeah ... pastor and minister. Um, in the Protestant tradition, we talk about the priesthood of all believers, and the, the pastor exists to equip not just the other staff and ministers, but the laity to do the ministry.
I'd much rather have 1,000 people doing ministry than seven people doing ministry and everybody watching. Right. So helping people discover their giftedness, discover their- Right ... passions- Key ... and, um, and then turn them loose to- Mm-hmm ... go and impact the world. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Now, um, [00:09:00] when you went on your sabbatical, uh, and, and, and I'm gonna take the privilege of our friendship here.
Uh, Clay, you were front and center in one of the most horrific days in the history of Nashville, uh, with the, the shooting at Covenant School. I mean, it happens, few minutes later, you're in the middle of it. You don't leave for the rest of that day, working with the families, coordinating, bringing children back to families- Right
and all of that, dealing with the news that families had to deal with that day. Um, that started a process of months-
Clay Stauffer: Right ...
Mike Glenn: of, of walking through the church, the community, the town, uh, the state- Right ... uh, with grief. That's right. That takes a tremendous toll. It does And it doesn't go away. I mean, everybody lays the burden on you and me as pastor, [00:10:00] but it doesn't go away.
The- So how, how, how have you dealt with that?
Clay Stauffer: The truth of the matter is y- that's the case for ministers all the time. Right. That was a high-profile, um, tragic day that got lots of media attention- Mm-hmm ... and, and impacted our entire town and nation. Um, but the reality is in ministry, you know, you're in the thick of it all the time.
Um, a family that's got a, a, a child with a drug addiction. Right. Um, a, a divorce that's really dragging out, taking its toll on people. Um, so you're always doing that. In that particular situation, yes, we had a number of families that were impacted. They had children at, at Covenant School. We had one family, uh, the Dickhaus family, that lost their nine-year-old daughter, and, um, and, and they're still dealing with that.
And so yes, this whole notion of caring for the caregivers- Mm-hmm ... supporting the people that are there to support everybody else. Mm-hmm. And, and, and it's really [00:11:00] important. You know, that happened in the spring of '23, but the ongoing impact, like you said, um, did not go away. Right. The grief, the shock, the hurt, the pain, the anger, the activism around what sensible, you know, gun safety reform- Right
could there be that we could all agree on regardless of political party. And so all of those things, uh, add up. And, and yes, it does take its toll, and yes, you do have to have a strong prayer life, and you do have to have, you know, ti- taking your days off- Mm-hmm ... and time away. Um, but that is part of the burden that pastors carry.
Right. And they have for a really long time. A situation like that brings it front and center. Uh, but yes, you do need time to unplug and, uh, time to refill your cup, time to recharge, do your own grief work, uh, because everybody's looking to you to be strong- Right, yeah ... and bring the message and talk about hope and talk about how we move forward.
Well, you're hurting too. Right. Um, and so yeah, getting through that has been really difficult, and it's still difficult- Okay ... [00:12:00] especially for the families that were directly impacted. What kind of, what kind of
Mike Glenn: things have you done in particular that you have found to be helpful in, in dealing with some of this pastoral care load?
Clay Stauffer: Well, you're big on this, but having mentors and confidants that you can talk about The situation yourself- Yeah ... is really important. So, um, I think you said every, every Paul needs a Timothy. Um, having people that you can share, you know, your thoughts on it- Mm-hmm ... that you can get, uh, encouragement and feedback.
We've had ongoing, uh, grief support, pastoral care, Stephen Ministry. Um, we did a one-year, uh, kind of anniversary where we, you know, we had music, and we remembered what happened on that day and, and brought a lot of the Covenant community, um, back together for that just to say, "Hey, we're still here. We haven't forgotten you.
Uh, you're still living with this every day. You still have an empty, uh, seat at your dining room table or an empty bedroom in your house- Right ... and, and, and, and you're not forgotten." Um, that ongoing [00:13:00] care and grief work is, is real- Mm-hmm ... and so we've done a lot of that. Right. Um, I have a very gifted pastoral care minister, uh, that was also right in the thick of that, and she's been incredible with supporting those families and checking in on them and making sure that they're doing okay.
Um, but, but there's not just one answer to that question. Right. There's lots of things you have to do in the aftermath of a thing like Covenant to give ongoing love and support to the people that have been impacted.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. So what are the some of the things that, that you did?
Clay Stauffer: Um, so initially- You
Mike Glenn: take day off.
Yeah,
Clay Stauffer: that's right. Okay. Take, take, take your day off. Um, even if you're not on- Now, what, what would- Even if you're not on sabbatical, you- Yeah, what would you do on your day off? Um, so m- my day off, uh, does not always look the same, but I, I try, uh, I try to read and have a devotional time. I try to go and work out, either on my own, uh, with a trainer.
Um, uh, I enjoy, you know, playing golf. I enjoy getting out and exercising- Right ... walking. I always need to do that. Um, uh, we have a s- a small place up in, in, uh, Monteagle in [00:14:00] Sewanee, and, uh, and so getting away to that place, whether it's for a night or for a day, um, that, that's very refreshing, and so I've always tried to utilize that.
Uh, also close to the faculty up there and friends up there that I can check in with and, um, and, and, and sharpen up. Uh, so those, so personally, those were some of the things. Um, also, I think making sure that your lay leaders, your elders- Are very much in tune to the fact that, that the, the ongoing, uh, consequences of an event like that, that it, it has this ripple effect.
It doesn't go away. Woodmont raised significant money in what we call a covenant fund, and we help pay for counseling for the families and the children- Good ... uh, that, that had to go through that. I mean, a lot of people f- we talk a lot about the lives that were lost that day, and it was awful. There were a lot of children that survived that and witnessed it.
Right. And they're still dealing with the, uh, PTSD and the anxiety of having lived through that. Mm-hmm. So giving them ongoing support and making sure they're getting the counseling, [00:15:00] um, that they're, that, that, that they're not forgotten. We know that you've lived through this and that you saw this, and that's not something that any child should ever go through.
Mm-hmm. So, so the sustained support from that has been really important. Um, and, and we've tried to do that as a church, and I've obviously done that pastorally and, uh, and through relationships.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Now, y- you're back from sabbatical, uh, and you, you and I have talked a little bit. I've sensed a, a, a real excitement about the future of Woodmont.
So what are you excited about?
Clay Stauffer: Uh, I'm excited about a lot of things. Um, our church has been growing. Uh, we're right in the heart of Nashville, right in Green Hills, right there on Hillsboro Road. So we have new people that are coming in all the time. Um, we, we offer three different styles of worship, plus online.
So we have an informal service, uh, a contemporary service called The Bridge, and a traditional service, and I think that's really important for pastors to think about how can we offer at least two different styles of worship- Right ... because not everybody likes to worship the same. So I'm excited- Not everybody likes the
Mike Glenn: same flavor of ice cream.
That's [00:16:00] exactly right. Some people like the, the
Clay Stauffer: hymns and the organ and the- The robes and some people like the band and the screens and, and, uh, you know, higher energy. So I'm really excited about how we continue to, to do that and think, and think about possibly even a fourth service that might be a little bit different than what we have.
Um, you know, because we've talked about it, one of my passions is, uh, Christianity in the public square. Right. And so I am, uh, lining up a series this fall where we're gonna have, uh, different speakers come in and, and talk about what does it look like to be a Christian during an election year? How do we navigate, uh, public dialogue, uh, civilly with decency?
How do we talk about issues that matter without getting hostile and animated? And so I've got a series that will actually start on September the 11th, where we're bringing in, uh, so some big names. I mean, guys like Jim Nantz, uh, Senator Bill Frist, uh, John Geer from Vanderbilt, uh, Summer Ali. We're gonna talk about different things that are being talked about in the news, and sometimes the, the, the energy and the, um, [00:17:00] partisanship get in the way of us actually talking about the issues that matter.
Right. And so I want people to be informed by intelligent people on these are the issues that affect our country. We might have difference of, of opinion as to how we implement them or what we do, uh, but we're gonna talk about that in the series. So I'm excited about that. That's coming up in, uh, in, in about a month.
Yeah. Um, and then in addition to that, uh, g- getting back into the groove, um, you know, uh, being with the staff again, um, training and, and, and pouring into lay leadership so that they can go and help lead and do the ministry. Um, all those things are, you know, on, on the horizon. And, and, and again, as churches grow and change, um, you know, they, they can't stay the same.
The way they operate can't stay the same. Right. The structure can't stay the same. The vision, uh, the way that you approach ministry, um, the staff you hire can't stay the same. No. Uh, so- In fact,
Mike Glenn: the way that you have done things will actually hinder you from continuing to grow.
Clay Stauffer: That's right. Uh- That is, yeah
the church has to adapt. You know, one of the things we saw in COVID is this huge ramp [00:18:00] up in, uh, uh, in streaming- Yeah ... and social media. That is now, that is our fourth service right now. That's right. And, uh- Yeah ... and yeah, we cr- you know, we like to make fun of the people that just stay home and, and watch church every week, but that is how people church shop.
Yeah. And that's also when people are traveling or when they're sick or they can't be there, uh, or they're sitting down at the Titans tailgate or whatever. Uh, that's how they tune in. Right. And so we have to continue to make sure that we're- Mm-hmm ... advancing our, our digital ministry- Mm-hmm ... our social media ministry, our blogs, um, conversations like this- Right
and getting that material out because that's part of doing ministry in the 21st century. Ah, whole different
Mike Glenn: world now. Whole different world. All right, let's sum up a couple of things. One, we're grateful for Clay, uh, for, uh, being with us today. One, uh- The, the stress of ministry is real and it doesn't go away.
You have to be intentional about doing that, and that's things like taking your day off, uh, finding a way to recreate, not just recreate, but recreate, uh, your own spiritual energy and vitality [00:19:00] by what you read, who you hang around with. Every pastor needs a pastor. Uh, and you need to have a safe place where you can talk to someone about what's going on with you and, and you won't be judged or it, it, it's safe and you have a safe place to do that.
Uh, we wanna help you get ready for these times that all of us know are coming, that are gonna be hard and difficult, but people count on us to walk them through these, these valleys that we all have to go through. So Clay, one of our favorite conversations, topics of late, uh, has been COVID and the fallout of COVID.
Uh, and you know, I used to tell people all the time, "I don't know where I was at the class at seminary that told you what to do during the pandemic." But all of a sudden I'm told, you know, you've gotta show up on Thursday and preach a sermon to an empty room so we can stream it. Uh, you got people in the hospital you can't visit, uh, so you're on the phone all the time.
Your s- all your meetings are by [00:20:00] Zoom And what we found out is it took a toll on a lot of us, and, uh, there was a huge retirement out of COVID. So what did you learn during that?
Clay Stauffer: Well, C- COVID was incredibly difficult, and anybody watching this that pastored through COVID knows exactly what we are talking about.
It really didn't matter what you did, you were gonna be criticized. Didn't matter what type of service you had. Right. Uh, there were gonna be people that were upset with it. And what we saw during that time was a lot of really good ministers and pastors got out of the ministry. Mm-hmm. 'Cause they said, "Look, this is a hard enough profession as it is.
If you're gonna criticize a worship service that you don't have to come to..." Um, you know, I, I, I knew some really good leaders that got out. And so i- that was a difficult time. And some people say, "Let's not talk about COVID." There was a silver lining to COVID. We did ramp up, uh, you know, digital ministry.
Right. A lot of churches did. Mm-hmm. We did ramp up blogs, and we did realize that you don't have to have all your meetings at the [00:21:00] church. You can do a Zoom meeting. Right. People can be at home. Um, and so the, the silver lining was the f- the advancement of digital ministry in the 21st century, that many churches were already doing, but they weren't doing well enough.
Right. They weren't putting the resources and the attention into it that it needed. Um, and so it, it pained me to see people get out of the ministry that were really effective pastors. Uh, but I think the rest of us that were able to survive that and make it through, um, we did grab onto the things that were working that could be incorporated into, into the ministry.
But it was also a reminder of a lot of things we've talked about today, that you have to find a, a pace that is sustainable. Right. And you have to take your breaks so that you don't burn out. Um, e- everybody gets stressed out, everybody deals with lots of things, but not everybody burns out. Right. And the difference, I think, between the people that just get stressed out and the people that burn out, uh, is, is are, do you have the resources and the relationships in place to make sure that you have the support you need to continue to do this very difficult line of work?
And [00:22:00] so, uh, COVID was hard, but we also learned a lot. And, uh, and at least for us, you know, our, our approach was we're gonna try lots of different things. We're gonna do a parking lot service. Right. We're gonna do an online service. We're gonna do a service with, you know, with masks, where we sit every other row.
We, we did all of that, and told our people, uh, you know, "Do what's comfortable for you." Yeah. Well, that's a lot like ministry. Yeah. Uh, there's not a one-size-fits-all in the church. Right. And so you have to be willing to throw out different options, different approaches, and, and, and see what is effective.
Mm-hmm. See what happens.
Mike Glenn: You know, we had, uh, we had six feet marked off on our pews. Right. You know, we had blue tape. Right. So when you stood up on Sunday morning, it looked like you were preaching at a crime scene. Right. That's right. They had all this, all this tape marking it off. But you know, you got in trouble if you held service You got in trouble i- if you didn't hold service.
Right. That's right. Uh, you got in trouble if you asked for masks. You got in trouble if you didn't ask for masks. Yeah. And, uh, I have a special [00:23:00] needs granddaughter. Right. And, uh, and my son, point blank, told me, "If you want to hold your granddaughter, you will get the vaccine."
Clay Stauffer: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, I got the vaccine.
Right. And now I had friends mad at me for caving in- Right ... and getting the vaccine. Right. Well, I said, "Well, you know, I didn't have a choice on it." Right. Uh, and it wasn't anything, uh, uh, 'cause I, I'll do anything for my grandchild.
Clay Stauffer: It was a perfect storm, um, in terms of everything was politicized, everything was controversial.
Um, every decision you had to make, you'd have people that liked it, people that didn't like it. Right. And, and, and then, you know, when we started to feel like, okay, we're maybe getting out of this thing, here comes the variant- ... and we gotta go back to... You know, I remember we had to... We, we moved our Christmas Eve services, I think, that first year outside because there were, you know, we had the, the, the, the spike, the variant.
Right. And, and it was like, you know, 15 degrees and snowing- ... and people are freezing. But we thought that was the right thing to do- Yeah ... because people didn't feel like everybody could, could be inside. Um, and, and what's [00:24:00] interesting is that was a really hard time, but it also sheds light into ministry in general is very difficult because you're gonna make decisions that not everybody likes.
You're going to say things that, uh, either people hear the wrong way or they don't like your position. Right. And, um, and so it takes a lot of courage, it takes thick skin, and it also takes a sense of humility that I'm not gonna always get it right. Right. I'm human, just like you. And, um, and so that was a hard time, but I do think that we, we learned a lot.
I think we grew a lot. Uh, we developed resilience and a lot of new ideas that became very effective and impactful- And commonplace now ... moving forward. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And, and, and I, I remember some pastors said, "You know, I'm gonna shut my live stream down to get my people back in the church."
And I said, "Well, that's an interesting approach, but if you shut your live stream down, there are churches down the street from you that aren't." Yeah. "And so your people might just tune into that." Right. And, um, so, you know, everything we read says that this, you know, streaming, [00:25:00] digital, uh, media, all of that is here to stay, and churches ignore that at their own peril.
At their own peril. At their own peril. What we found
Mike Glenn: out, roughly, is that when we started doing the vid- 25% of our people just left. Right. That is, they went home, didn't come back to church. Jesus didn't strike them with lightning. Right. And so they found other things to do on Sunday morning. Another 25% of our church came back and will never miss.
Right. The other 50, that middle of the bell curve, they tell you, "We go to church all the time." But what they, what they mean is we're, we're in person once or twice a month. Right. And we're on live stream the other times. Right. And we go visit grandchildren, but we'll catch the live stream. That's right.
We're good. Uh, several weeks ago, my son, uh, was up visiting from Jacksonville, Florida, and, and he got up on Sunday morning and went and found, uh, uh, uh, the television in my study and watched his home church- Yeah.
Clay Stauffer: That's right ...
Mike Glenn: uh, to do [00:26:00] that. And- Well- ... and one time I'm, I'm looking at him going, "You know, I, I'm pretty proud of this kid-"
to, to do this." The other time I'm going, "You know, but you
Clay Stauffer: should be going to church somewhere." Well, one thing we need to be clear about is that, you know, watching church online, um, you know, at home, on your computer, it's not the same thing as being there in person. But it's a lot better than just missing- Yeah
the message- That's right, yeah ... or missing the service. Yeah. And so Pew Research and other organizations that have collected data, you know, have kind of been telling us for a while now that, that if people go to church, like you said, once to twice a month, uh, they consider themselves regular churchgoers.
Yeah. And so i- if we can get them to tune in on the weeks when they're traveling or gone, then they're gonna continue to hear that series, they're gonna continue to feel connected. Hopefully they're gonna have, uh, uh, you know, a Jesus moment, a spiritual moment where they feel like they're growing and, uh, and that's, that's better than just not- Yeah
being tied in at all. And it also, it also
Mike Glenn: depends on am I c- am I tuning in to watch a church service- Right ... that I found randomly or I'm, I'm kind [00:27:00] of, uh, nominally connected to, or am I tuning in to see my pastor at my church? Right. So there's a whole spectrum of engagement on that.
Clay Stauffer: Well, and we saw both, right?
Right, yeah. You and I both had church members that, you know, that, that, that tuned in to hear the message, but guess what? They also, uh, tuned in and listened to two or three others because- Yeah. ... they could. And, um, and, and, and, you know, and, and that's okay. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're, you know, they're being fed.
Um, a lot of people that are thinking about coming to your church, whether it's Woodmont or Brentwood Baptist or any other church, I mean, they're gonna check you out online. Yeah. And they're gonna m- uh, they're gonna church shop that way. And so that you might meet somebody that says, "We've been worshiping with you for three months online, and we finally decided to come and check it out."
Well, guess what? Their exposure was online. Right. And so what it- And they will
Mike Glenn: judge you, and, and, and, or I say judge, they will experience that the same way that they experience any- [00:28:00] Online- Right ... presentation. So you're judged with Microsoft, and any university, and any major corporation, uh, and your online stuff has to be comparable to that.
Clay Stauffer: There's a very high expectation- Right ... that it will be done well. Right. And thankfully, we live in a time now with HD cameras and sound equipment where you can do it well. You can always do it better- Right ... but you can do it well for a reasonable cost. Not, not a whole lot. And then you can continue to grow and invest in the technology- Right.
And- ... to do it better and better ...
Mike Glenn: and there's usually a 12-year-old that can run it for you, so - That's right. That's right.
Clay Stauffer: That's exactly right. It is. They, it's like, "Wow, we can't figure this out." Yeah. "Move out of the way." That's right. You bet. "Let me, let me figure that out." That's right. But, but it, but it's, um, but it's so true, and I think, you know, j- I think ministers, you know, we talk about staffing.
I mean, you need to make sure that you have somebody on your staff that is over or focused on AV, live stream, social media. You know, we can complain a lot about social media. It does have a big downside, but it's, uh, an amazing way to- [00:29:00] Right ... get messages out there. And so continuing to staff and invest in those areas will pay dividends in the, in the long run.
And, and again, this wasn't something that the church of old had to do. No. It, it just wasn't. Well, even,
Mike Glenn: even back in my training it was never mentioned.
Clay Stauffer: Right. I
Mike Glenn: mean, we had the, we had the television pastors, but, you know. Right. That was once on Sunday morning from f- And, and the reason the television stations did it, it was dead time right before the football game.
That's right. And so they gave it away kinda, kinda cheap. We'll give you a deal Sunday morning. Yeah, that's it. That's it. Uh,
Clay Stauffer: while our people are sleeping in. And, uh, they are. But no, uh, continuing to take that seriously and, and, and, and do that well, and also be very intentional about the content that you're pushing out.
You can't, um, just over-saturate people with information. You have to be very targeted in what you're pushing out, what you're offering on live stream, what you're recording at the church so that it can be, uh, made available on the website. Mm-hmm. I mean, we have, uh, I mentioned the, the series we're gonna have this fall.
Well, there might be people that can't make [00:30:00] it on Wednesday night, but guess what? The next day or that weekend- They will plug in. They will plug in, yes, they will ... they can come back and listen to it. And, and, and having that resource is invaluable, and it's really important. And so continuing to up the game, uh, when it comes to that is, is, is very essential.
Mike Glenn: It is a different day than when I started. It really is . It is. But we're glad Clay joined with us. Now let, let's kind of, uh, sum up some things we talked about. Uh, one, the fatigue factor of ministry is very real, and it won't go away unless you deal with it intentionally, and that is things like sabbaticals, uh, like making sure you take your day off, it- staying in the spiritual practices such as prayer, journaling, and those kind of things.
Uh, make sure that you have a pastor. Every pastor needs a pastor. You need a safe place that you can kinda download what you're going through and get a different perspective on it. Uh- Ministry, while it is, uh, the same in a lot of ways, you're still dealing with people, you're still dealing with the, the, uh, essence [00:31:00] of the gospel, it has changed in a lot of ways.
Live streaming is part of that. Sure. Being online is part of that. And if you're gonna be effective, you're gonna have to be learning these new skills. Uh, in a lot of ways, ministry hasn't changed. In a lot of ways, it is very different, and it will never, ever go back. And so we're glad that we had Clay kinda help us walk through some of this.
Uh, we'll look forward to you being back. I'm sure you'll do something else interesting sooner or later, and we'll we'll have you back. I'm Mike Glenn. This is the Engaged Church Network. Thanks for being with us.
