Structure & Strategy: Building a Legally Sound Church feat. Miles Terry
In this episode of the Engaged Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn, sits down with Miles Terry, a practicing attorney with over 15 years of experience specializing in church law and nonprofit legal matters. Together, they explore the evolving landscape of church liability, government regulations, and the unique legal challenges facing churches today. Miles shares his journey from ministry to law, offering key insights on proactive legal counsel for churches, how liability impacts modern church operations, and the importance of structure within a church organization. Tune in to learn more about the developing field of church law and how to protect your ministry from unforeseen legal issues.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, my name is Mike Glenn, and I am the president of the Engage Church Network, and we have put this podcast together to help those of you who serve in the local church setting, uh, understand all of the changing dynamics that are going on right now in the life of local churches. Joining me today is Miles Terry.
Uh, Miles is a practicing attorney focusing on nonprofits, churches, schools, and, uh, and that kind of thing. Uh, so Miles, uh, give folks, uh, a little of your background and how you ended up in, in this space.
Miles Terry: So I, uh, I grew up in the church and, uh, was active, uh, many, many years ago in ministry. I was in college.
I was, uh, on a church staff at my local church and, uh, very much was in love with ministry and wanted to pursue it and, uh, but different doors shut and different doors opened. Mm-hmm. And I eventually, uh, eventually, uh, followed a different path to law [00:01:00] school and, uh, and did some graduate work as well and, uh, spent 15 years working for, uh, one of the largest, uh, nonprofit legal organizations in the country and did a lot of
A lot of my clients were churches- Mm-hmm ... nonprofits. Um, I've spent 15 years in this space and, um, and so now I'm, I've ... My, my current practice is, is, uh, engaged in chur- what we call church law. It's, uh, uh, churches, pastors, religious ministries, uh, Christian schools- Mm-hmm ... and, um, and that's all we do. We provide general counsel services to those, to those types of religious entities.
Mm-hmm. And, um, we don't do anything else. That's all we do. We have a background in it, we enjoy it, and, uh, it's kind of a niche that, um ... It's a new developing area of law. Um, you know, f- everybody's familiar with family law or real estate law or, um, personal injury law. Church law is something that's, it's kind of new.
It's a new development- Mm-hmm ... and, um, it's focused specifically- But it
Mike Glenn: used to be for a long time, churches weren't never sued, or that was [00:02:00] kind of the, the walking around wisdom that nobody would ever sue a church, and if you did sue a church, you couldn't win.
Miles Terry: Well, and it was also, yeah, considered it was, uh, bad, uh, form to sue a church.
Yeah. That you would, it would look bad and ... Uh, the problem though is, is that, uh, as we've learned from the legal perspective, but I think churches are learning now too, is that if you think about it, churches and pastors, they carry or they're, uh, linked to more liability on any given day or any given week or weekend than any other entity-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Miles Terry: whether religious or non-religious, any other entity in, in their community. Um, you know, even a, you know, you've got a business that people come Monday through Friday, 9:00 to 5:00, and they, they're taking on liability when people step foot on their, in their parking lot or in their front door. Mm-hmm. But churches, uh, for the most part, gather more liability and, and it's liability they actually invite, and it's- Yeah
and they're inviting it for free. They're not getting, they're not getting paid. They're, they're, they're not in it to, uh ... [00:03:00] I, I joke with a lot of my clients that, you know, "You're kind of crazy to start a church, honestly." And they ... You know, if, if it wasn't for the mission that you're called to- Yeah ... why would you invite so much liability into your own life?
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I remember one of, one of the big discussions that leadership had with me is there was a group of kids skateboarding in the parking lot of our church And I, I'm, went out there and met the kids, talked to the kids, told them it was fine to skateboard and all that. And then somebody pulled me aside and said, "You do realize if one of those kids falls-
Miles Terry: We're responsible
Mike Glenn: we're gonna be l- we're gonna be sued."
Miles Terry: For maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars- Yes, if not millions ... back in the day. If not millions. Yeah, yeah. And so, yes, so you have all this liability- Mm-hmm ... and so it's, uh, churches are, uh, we're living in a post, uh, it used to be a post-modern America. Now we're, we're defining it- Yeah
redefining it as a post-Christian. Post, uh,
Mike Glenn: post-Christian, yeah.
Miles Terry: So you're living in a post-Christian world, and which I know you've got a new book coming out soon- That's right, yeah. ... uh, on that very subject. But you're living in this post-Christian world, [00:04:00] and, uh, so it's already becoming harder to, to reach people and to advance the Great Commission.
But then on top of that, you've got, uh, government regulation that's now becoming more prevalent with churches. You've got employment laws that are becoming more prevalent with churches. You've got just sheer growth, and because of that growth, liability. Mm-hmm. And churches now are facing issues That churches, uh, five, six decades ago never would have even, uh, considered.
And, um, and so there's a need. There's a need in, uh, for churches for, uh, for legal counsel. And, you know, what we found is that, uh, over the last 15 years of doing this, is that pretty much most churches know of an attorney or have an attorney that, um, that goes to their church. Right. And so when they do have a legal question, uh, or an issue that comes up, they, they know somebody to talk to.
The problem, though, is, is that most of these attorneys are practicing other areas of law, and they don't understand the specific areas, uh, unique to a religious organization. And
Mike Glenn: the case law that has been-
Miles Terry: The case law [00:05:00] that is, is constantly changing and developing. Mm-hmm. And so, uh, so they do their best to help them, but they're not, they- they're
It's more of a, from a reactionary posture of it's always too late at that point. Right. They have a problem pop up, "Hey, do you know, can, can Joe come in and help us with this?" He's like, "Well, I really do real estate closings." Right. "I really don't know how to advise you on this issue-" Mm-hmm. "... with your youth pastor or issue with a board member, but I'll do my best."
And so they do it pro bono, but they really don't know what they're doing. And, uh, and so what we have found is we, we take a different approach to the practice- Mm-hmm. ... of law with churches. We, we take a, an approach that we ... It's more like preventative medicine. We want to be proactive. We don't want to be rea- reactionary.
We want to, uh, get involved with the daily life and the normal life of a church, uh, get involved in every aspect of the church, and provide ongoing proactive counsel- Mm-hmm ... in real time. Um, because from what we have found is most issues, if you can just have proper legal counsel- Mm-hmm ... [00:06:00] uh, they'll, they'll never result in issues.
Yeah. They'll never evolve. You, you deal with
Mike Glenn: a- You won't find yourself on the headlines.
Miles Terry: Correct. You know, but- Yeah. It's, it's always if you're gonna have an event and you need a waiver or you need-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Miles Terry: proper insurance, it's always better to be proactive and handle it on the front end. Right. You can never make issues go away.
You'll always have issues. That's the world we find ourselves in. Mm-hmm. But to be prepared and have a plan up front, it, for the most part, in our experience, it's eliminated most of the issues that churches face.
Mike Glenn: Okay. L- let, let's go back and, and level set this. I, I had the opportunity and the privilege of studying at some of the best schools, uh, in, in, in America.
I, I really did. And, and my s- my seminary education was on par with, with anything that, that you would find anywhere else. Mm-hmm. We never touched on this.
Miles Terry: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So I show up as a pastor, and I have no idea about what documents you need- Mm-hmm ... what it means to be a 501[c][3], what is allowed for a [00:07:00] 501[c][3]- Yes ... what is, uh, not allowed for a 501[c][3].
So, uh, I'm a pastor. I'm sitting at home. I'm watching this podcast. What are the essentials legally that you have to have in a local church setting?
Miles Terry: Well, the, the... So I'll, I'll preface that with this. Uh, the, the great thing is, is that if you do it the right way, uh, but you have a constitutional right to have a church and, and to, um...
And you have a unique status as a 501[c][3] unlike any other nonprofit. Mm-hmm. Uh, most nonprofits that are not considered churches While they may, um, apply to be a 501[c][3], they've gotta actually apply and go through a long process, and they have to wait for the government to actually grant them that. But under the United States Constitution, as a church, you are automatically a 501[c][3].
It's inherent in your existence as a nonprofit, a church nonprofit in our country. And so the good news is you don't have a lot of regulation. There's certain regulations that the government's just not allowed to involve themselves- Mm-hmm ... in the church. Having [00:08:00] said that, um, every church needs structure.
They need structure both in operations. They need structure in how they govern themselves. They need structure in how they self-regulate, uh, themselves and how they grow. And so every church needs a, a leadership model and, and, you know, it's very unique. I, we ... What you're talking about with, you know, you didn't learn this in seminary- Right
we, we do have that in common, the fact that I, I finished a master's in divinity recently m- many, many years after a law degree, and I can tell you that's true. Mm-hmm. 'Cause going through three years of, uh, MDiv, uh, we learned pretty much everything except how to like- That's right. ... set up and run a church.
And what's even crazier is, uh, 15 years before this MDiv, uh, getting my law degree, my wife and I both went to law school, and, and we always joke about the fact that you go to three years of law school, and by the end of it you have ... You've b- uh, received an incredible legal education, but they don't teach you how to run a law firm.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Miles Terry: So it's very similar in that you have to get out and you have to figure it out. And o- one of the things that we've learned is, you know, [00:09:00] both from a legal and a religious perspective, there's not a, a, uh, these are the 10 steps of how to set up a church, uh, from the Apostle Paul- Mm-hmm ... to the letter, you know- Right
to the Corinth- Corinthian church. It's, um, there are principles that we can re- uh, deduce from different, um, Pauline teachings in the New Testament of how to set up. You know, what, what are the requirements of an elder? What are the guidelines for a pastor? What are the guidelines for deacons and, and other-
Mike Glenn: And mutual accountability structure
Miles Terry: that's been- Mutual accountability and, and, and o- operations.
I mean, there was a, there was a point at which the disciples, um, and you would know the, the citation better than I would. I, I always, um, have a hard time recalling it, but where the apostle came up and said, "Hey, we're busy, uh, trying to, like-
Mike Glenn: Acts 6 ... Acts
Miles Terry: 6. We're busy trying to, like, minister and, and pray and seek God's will and guidance here and minister to the people.
We don't have time to wait on tables- Wait on tables ... and take care of the widows." And it wasn't that they were saying that we're better than them. Mm-mm. It was that they, they said that, "We know our [00:10:00] lane. We're trying to stay in it." Mm-hmm. "So we need s- we need leadership. We need to, to develop. We need the people in the church to
who are called to do those things to have, be empowered and given the authority to do so." And so- We have, uh, I, I would s- go back to your original question is that the, the, the tough thing is, is there's not an exact model, uh, prescribed in the New Testament for how you want to set up a church governing structure.
Um, but there is a lot of guidance. And so I, I say that all to say if anybody says, "Well, this is the only Christian way to run a church-" Mm-hmm ... that's not true. Um, there are principles that everybody should follow that are, that are universal. Um, but w- I've got clients who have very strong churches with a lot of integrity in the process that ha- that are set up with a board of trustees model.
Mm-hmm. I've got some that are set up with an elders or a deacons model, and the deacons, uh- Mm-hmm ... control everything. I've got some that are set up where the pastor, uh, felt called to start a [00:11:00] church. He's the, he started it. He's kind of like it's a one-man show.
Mike Glenn: And he's kept everything within, within his- He's kept everything
Miles Terry: kind of within his purview.
I, there's, there's ... And but for all of those models, as you probably know better than anybody, there's, there's i- advantages and disadvantages- Right ... to all of them And so what we try to do is not tell people you, there's only, you know, one size fits all. We try to take our f- client as we find them. We take our client as we find them and say, "Well, where are you now?
Where would you like to go, and how can we help you build out a structure-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Miles Terry: that's reflective of the unique personality of your community, um, but is also got checks and balances there to protect you, protect your leaders- Mm-hmm ... protect your people, and have integrity in the process.
Mike Glenn: So that's the constitution and bylaws?
Miles Terry: Const- you need a constitution and bylaws. You need a g- you need a strong governing model with checks and balances that allows you to keep, uh, keep everybody protected and keep integrity in the process, but also allows you to grow. I know at Brentwood- Right ... you guys went through this pro- probably a decade or so [00:12:00] ago.
Right.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Miles Terry: You know, everybody looks at, um, at the nine campuses that you have now and how much growth you've had. Very few people realize how many years you guys spent building out, doing a, what I would call a, um, a non-physical building campaign. Right. Where you spent several years building out a, saying, "This is our current structure."
A structure,
Mike Glenn: right. Mm-hmm. "
Miles Terry: This structure is not big enough and flexible enough to allow us to grow to nine campuses, but we see the growth coming in our community, and before we can start raising money to build more campuses-"
Mike Glenn: Well, we had, we had the old Southern Baptist thing of, you know, everything had to be by congregational vote.
Miles Terry: Yes.
Mike Glenn: And you had to call a special meeting. You had to give at least a week's notice. Well, you know, it took us six, seven weeks to make a decision. And- And you don't, and you don't have time to do that anymore.
Miles Terry: And in a small, in a small church startup or a church plant- Right ... or a small town church, there's nothing wrong with that model.
Mm-hmm. That can be a very great model. But it gets to the point where if the people can't, [00:13:00] um, have the ability and it's f- feasible- Mm-hmm ... to get people together regularly to build consensus- Right ... you have to look at a different model. And, and you guys did that very well in, in saying, "This is where we are now.
This is where we wanna be. How are we going to change our model- Mm-hmm ... governance wise and bylaws?" And you guys went through, I think probably a multi-year process- Yeah, it was two or
Mike Glenn: three-year period ...
Miles Terry: of redoing that, and also not, not just rewriting it and saying, "Well, everybody, this is the way it's gonna be.
Like it or leave it." You guys had to build consensus.
Mike Glenn: No, you gotta have all those listening sessions
Miles Terry: and everybody's feedback. Listening sessions and consistent... And, and so I, I tell a lot of clients, like, "Listen, if you wanna have the church congregation vote on everything, or you wanna have the board- Mm-hmm
vote on everything, and they don't wanna, uh, delegate that authority to officers and other people, that's fine. But as you guys need to show up every morning at 8:00-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Miles Terry: we'll keep you busy till 5:00, and we'll see you the next morning." And a lot of board members are like, "Well, yeah, I wanna be involved, but I, I can't."
Right. I
Mike Glenn: don't, I don't need that. Yeah.
Miles Terry: Don't need that. And so if they're not gonna do that- Mm-hmm ... then you've gotta build a different type of [00:14:00] model That again reflect, that's healthy and it's got balances, but it reflects the personality of the church. Okay.
Mike Glenn: What are some of, uh, you know, you, you work with a lot of churches.
You walk into an, uh, a church, they've opened their documents, you look through them. What are some of the first mistakes you see, most common mistakes?
Miles Terry: The biggest mistake I see, and every church has this problem, is, um, they do not maintain their documents. They're ... I, I've got clients who they've been in existence for 30, 40 years, and you finally have your first consultation with them.
You go to the Secretary of State's website, you p- you download all their information, and their original charter or constitution de- Depending on what they call it in their state, they haven't updated it in- In
Mike Glenn: 100 years ...
Miles Terry: 100 years. And, and they're, you know, I, and I start asking them questions like, "Well, how do you, how do you make decisions around here?
H- what's your process?" "Well, we vote as a board." And I'm like, "Well, the, your original formation documents say that you gotta have a, a full church vote on everything." Okay.
Mike Glenn: Now, w- you [00:15:00] know, we're, we're, we're being a little facetious here, but if push came to shove and somebody r- raised the issue, they could nullify-
Miles Terry: Absolutely
Mike Glenn: all the decisions that the board makes because those decisions weren't made in line with the charter documents.
Miles Terry: Absolutely. And not, and not only could they nullify things, but then that starts creating liability. It also opens the door to government involvement- Right ... and court, and specifically court involvement.
A, there's a, there's a principle in law when it comes to churches called the ecclesiastical doctrine, which means a- as long as a church is following its own rules, and they're, they're following their own statement of faith- Mm-hmm ... and they're being consistent in that, then we're not gonna get involved.
Right. We're not allowed to by the Constitution. But the minute somebody can prove in good faith that they are not following the rules, and they're out of line- Right. We see
Mike Glenn: this a lot with church splits.
Miles Terry: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: You know, one, one congregation wants, one group wants to go start another church, but they want the property.
Miles Terry: They want the property.
Mike Glenn: And so they argue about who has the property, and a court will be [00:16:00] involved.
Miles Terry: Yeah. And, and that, that happens all the time. Mm-hmm. And they, and then they start saying, "Well, let me look at your, uh, you guys have board meetings. Did you guys keep minutes? Uh, your bylaws say you keep minutes.
Why do you not have minutes?" And, and so they start holding the church to their own-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Miles Terry: standards that were self-imposed. And unfortunately, you know, life gets busy, and, you know, while ministry is the most important thing-
Mike Glenn: Well, I don't, I, you know, I was a pastor for 45 years total. I never wrote down on one day's job- Update documents, check on documents, review documents.
That was never part of my job description
Miles Terry: Well, and, and, and this is one of the th- things that inspired us to work with churches is that I had a lot of, uh, years of background working in the for-profit sector and working with a lot of family-owned businesses and providing general counsel to them. And, and for those listening, if they've
You know, it's not far-fetched to say, "Well, you know, obviously a small business has got legal counsel- Mm-hmm ... on retainer giving us [00:17:00] counsel regularly." And for whatever reason we don't, uh, we've never applied that to the church. But I've had c- I had clients years ago where they wanted to set up an LLC or a- Yeah
small business. They pay all this money to put together these nice corporate books and the resolutions- Mm-hmm ... and stock certificates and the seal, and you give it to them, and then they call you 10 years later when they're getting sued and they're like, "Well, I mean, have we done..." And you're like, "No, you're in trouble.
Like, you haven't kept the formalities." Right. You have to keep the ... And so we're, we are taking a lot of the things that we were seeing in the business world and seeing the same issues in the church and saying, "You know what? You would be best served to start understanding that while ministry's important- Mm-hmm
the best thing you can do to allow ministry to continue to grow and advance is to keep your house in order." And, and, and you were talking about this in a meeting earlier that I happened to be in. Uh, you were talking to, uh, some guys in the ministry. You said, "Listen, at the end of the day, like when it comes to raising money-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Miles Terry: it's a lot easier to ask for a, a donation, it's a lot easier to ask- Mm-hmm ... [00:18:00] for an offering when people know that your finances- That's
Mike Glenn: right. You have trust in the system.
Miles Terry: Yes. Trust in the system- Mm-hmm ... and integrity. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and so, you know, while a church might not be required to have financial policies or, uh, to do an audit every year- Mm-hmm
it's great to do an audit every year. Yeah. You invest a little bit of money into a, a, an audit and then you can say, "Hey-
Mike Glenn: We're clean ...
Miles Terry: we're clean." We're clean. For 20 years, like we, we hold ourselves to a standard higher than we should- Right ... but we do it, and it, it allows for a great growth in the ministry- That's huge
and trust.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Taking care of the original documents. What's, uh, what's another thing that you find?
Miles Terry: Uh, not being aware, uh, being so, um, again, good intentions, but being so focused on ministry that you don't take the time to think about, uh, creating the structure to allow ministry to be sustainable. We, we often put ourselves in these situations where we, we're driven by our calling and passion, but we don't, um, we
And, and people are [00:19:00] like, "Well, I gotta leave it all on the field every day." Mm-hmm. "I've got to like go, you know, I gotta preach every Sunday. I've gotta go on every mission trips. I gotta do all these things." And you don't make time, you don't make time for a, to creating a structure that creates accountability for leaders- Mm-hmm
and allows for forced, uh, sabbaticals, forced rest. Um, the most dangerous, you've said this for years- Yeah ... in your, from the pulpit. The most dangerous place to be is to be a Christian leader in the church running on empty.
Mike Glenn: Running on empty
Miles Terry: And, and, and most of the issues and the, the things that we have to clean up and scandals that we see- Mm-hmm
in our line of work with churches, it was, I would say 80% of the time it was a good guy or a good woman who were called to ministry, highly talented, uh, good people. Mm-hmm. Good people, but they were running on empty for a long time.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, dropped the fundamentals. You- Yes ... lost their prayer time, lost their Bible study time.
Miles Terry: Always running on empty- And, and, yeah ... and, and getting, um... And when you start running on empty, you start getting jaded. Mm-hmm. You start getting, [00:20:00] uh, bitter. You start getting frustrated. You start isolating yourself. And, and typically when you're running with accountability, um, and, and oversight, um, you're- that's a safe place.
When you start getting off on your own- Right ... that's where you get picked off.
Mike Glenn: Well, when you are wounded-
Miles Terry: Yes ...
Mike Glenn: the predator's the first one to see that.
Miles Terry: Yes. Correct. They see the blood in the water. They see the- They see the, they hear the- They see the wound ... the cries, yeah ...
Mike Glenn: and they'll come after you.
Miles Terry: Yeah.
Well, and so that's the first part of it. That, that, a culture that allows leaders to get burnt out- Mm-hmm ... and create that, what happens over time is it starts developing what we call a vacuum in the system. And a vacuum in any system, it's a political vacuum where when you don't have structure in place to, to, uh, protect the process, to protect your leaders, to protect your volunteers and, and keep ministry moving forward, you create a vacuum.
And what happens is that vacuum, it, it becomes the Wild West where, you know, people start realizing, "Well, I can, like, I can posture myself here or play these games to- [00:21:00] Right ... get in control of this or get on that committee or- Or
Mike Glenn: manipulate
Miles Terry: that ... manipulate this situation- Right. Yeah ... to get what I want." And then, and that's when the personal agendas get pulled into it.
Right. And then, uh, this is, it creates a scenario that I think unfortunately we are all have had some experience in dealing with at some point or another in a church, and then that just what, it, it just becomes a snowball.
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah.
Miles Terry: All
Mike Glenn: right. Now, a- as we've mentioned, uh, th- the, the legal landscape for, for local churches has changed.
What, uh, what do you see on the horizon? What are you afraid of?
Miles Terry: Well, the, the, you know, probably 10, 15 years ago, there was a big, uh, there was a big shift where, um, legal organizations and working with churches were very concerned because of public policy changes and, and, and changes in the law that they were gonna be forced to, um, condone or, um, officiate certain types of weddings- Mm-hmm
that were against their statement of faith. And so [00:22:00] there was a mad rush to, um, to advise people to change their bylaws to where they made it clear that this is our statement of faith and we're not gonna do these types of ceremonies. And, and that's all fine. I, I, you know, d- not to, like, uh, take a detour, but a lot of those churches did that, and now they're facing issues where they did that because it was in the news and everybody was all concerned about it, but they haven't really kept the formalities for the last 10, 15 years.
And so if they were ever sued, uh, on that type of issue, I would be concerned, uh, have they been consistent? Right. Have they, have they followed? Because, you know, if you, you're big on that statement of faith, but you have kinda let your, your adherence to other parts of the statement of faith of your bylaws slip- Mm-hmm
and you're not enforcing things consistently, you've created a loophole and a door that is, becomes a vulnerability. I think moving forward, a lot of things are determined by public policy on what you see, uh, politically. Um, but there's a lot of, um, there's a, there's a big move right [00:23:00] now to, um, and I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but to allow churches to apply for government funding.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Miles Terry: We were talking about that, uh, recently.
Mike Glenn: I'm, I'm against it.
Miles Terry: Yeah. And I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but I, I will say this, the minute you- Well,
Mike Glenn: out of COVID, there was a lot of opportunity to have your s- have your salaries reimbursed or, or that kind of stuff from- Yes ... from, from government funds and that kind of stuff.
Uh, schools, you can have certain funds available- Yep ... for schools, preschool, Head Starts, kinda ... And especially if you're in particular neighborhoods, there's a lot of government funding for getting those kind of things started. My thing is, and we've talked about this, is if you take Uncle Sam's money, you take Uncle Sam's rules.
Miles Terry: Absolutely, and that's a problem. It's hard to make an argument like, "Well, I'm, I want your money-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Miles Terry: uh, but I don't wanna do what you tell me to do." And, and it typically what happens is, you know, th- there's never strings attached that you're aware of on the front end- Right ... but they happen to kinda come later.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, and so that [00:24:00] is a, that's a massive issue. And you could argue it either way. That's why I wanna say I'm not for or against because, you know, I've had situations where I've had clients over the years where, um, the government was treating them differently than anyone else. Mm-hmm. And so there are, there are arguments to be made And the alternative that, you know, if, if you give this to a public school or a, a homeowners association or a, a secular nonprofit, then we have every right to be treated equally under the law.
Right. So it goes both ways. But at the end of the day, when you take government money, um, that opens the door to other issues that... And, and that's an area that is very quickly developing. Um, and there's, uh, parental rights is gonna be a big issue in the next 10 to 15 years. Mm-hmm. Uh, you're already seeing that politically, but what happens, you know, as the old saying goes, what happens with, you know, the, the kids, you know, becomes the, the issue of the next generation.
Mm-hmm. What happens in the public square is gonna become the issue of the church, too. Right. Um, we're not immune
Mike Glenn: from that. So if the mother wants to take their son to the local church, the divorced [00:25:00] husband doesn't want the child to be exposed to that brand of, of faith, whatever, whatever it is. Then there, that's the contingent, the, the-
Miles Terry: Yes
the conflict. You see, you see conflicts like this in Christian schools right now with a lot of our Christian school clients, and, and that's only gonna grow for churches- Mm-hmm ... where you're gonna have to have a custody policy. Um, if you as a church don't have that yet, you're gonna have one, I guarantee, in the next five to 10 years.
You're gonna have cu- As you have more and more broken families- Right ... that you're trying to reach, and you're trying to, um, and bring the gospel to, you're gonna have to, with those, what we talked about when we first started, you know, you invite people, pe- all people- ... come with baggage. So every person you invite onto your campus, you are inviting not just them- Yeah
and the opportunity to disciple them and convert them-
Mike Glenn: But, but everybody they're related to.
Miles Terry: Everybody they're related to.
Mike Glenn: And every situation they're involved
Miles Terry: in. And, and also the, the 10 different people they have been in their life. Yeah. They're, you know, who they are now, who they were a year ago. Yeah.
All the baggage and problems, and you invite all that, and you're [00:26:00] accepting all that. And so you've gotta be prepared to, you know, as the Bible says, in and out of season.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Miles Terry: You've gotta be prepared, um, to handle those things, and some of these issues are ... And you know this. I mean, you're, you're dealing with, uh, homeless come into your church.
Well, guess what? You just started a homeless ministry. You're now collecting clothes. Mm-hmm. You're now collecting food. You're now having to figure out, how do we house people? Mm-hmm. Um, you ha- you start, uh, seeing an uptick in single mothers coming through. Well, you're gonna be buying a lot of diapers in your future- Right, mm-hmm
as a church. So I think churches have got to be ... They have ha- they have to have good, strong governing structures. They've gotta learn how to get, uh, ahead of being reactionary all the time and being proactive- Mm-hmm ... so that they're in a healthy spot where they can start to forecast the s- the changes they're seeing demographically so they n- Because y- if you read on the headlines what's going on in your community, sooner or later you're gonna be hit with that issue.
Mm-hmm. So you need to be prepared and start putting plans in place so when the need [00:27:00] arises, you're ready to go.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. So every pastor needs a good attorney, huh?
Miles Terry: They need a good attorney. Yeah, they need a good attorney. They need a great attorney. We used to say, we used to tell everybody every church needs a good attorney, and then we had people saying, "No, they need a great attorney."
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah.
Miles Terry: Uh, but they need a great attorney. They need ... I will tell you, they need a great realtor. They need a great banker. Mm-hmm. They need a great, uh, insurance salesman and broker. They need a great counselor. Um, they need great, uh, a great professional in every area of life, and the good news is, is that their pews are full of them.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, mo- yeah, most of the time there's somebody out there who's Who this is the thing they do
Miles Terry: This is what they do and-
Mike Glenn: And they would be honored to serve their church by offering it. Yeah.
Miles Terry: And we've talked about this before. Mm-hmm. I know that you've been big on this, um, is that, you know, they might not be the one that is called to be in the nursery- Right
to be the nursery worker.
Mike Glenn: But
Miles Terry: they may be
Mike Glenn: this.
Miles Terry: They may be- They may be this the other way ... yeah, they can be the CFO of the church or the chairman of the financial board, or they could be the one looking for new property- Mm ... over the next 10 to 15 years as you have a need to grow or [00:28:00] helping with insurance policies.
This is, you know, I, we were trained in law school, my wife and I, where w- the, the punchline and, and the mission was the law is more than a profession, it's a calling.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Miles Terry: And I would say that's true of any profession. Right. Whether you're a doctor, a realtor, you're a banker- Mm ... you're a construction, uh, foreman, contractor, it's more than that.
It's a calling. And if you're not using that gifting in, in to advance a calling-
Mike Glenn: Right. It's, it's a mismanagement of ministry. It
Miles Terry: really is. Correct. It's a mismanagement of ministry. And as a church, a pastor should be doing that.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Miles Terry: Um, you should find out what are the occupations and the talents of everybody in the pew, and they sh- you should do everything you can to advance- Mm-hmm
and set them up for success in those areas.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And, uh, that's another podcast.
Miles Terry: That is.
Mike Glenn: All right, so-
Miles Terry: Thank you for having me ...
Mike Glenn: the, the one thing we wanted w- the one thing we want to ... Got homework, and here's your homework. Uh, if you're a pastor, if you're a leader of a local church, then head back to your church, get those original [00:29:00] documents, and make sure that they're up to date and, uh, and, and doing for the church and for you what you need them to do.
I'm Mike Glenn. That is Miles Terry, and we're glad you joined us here for this podcast.
