The Next Chapter: Navigating Life After 30+ years in Ministry feat. Tim Harlow
In this episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with Tim Harlow, who pastored in Chicago for 33 years before recently moving to Nashville. Together, they share a candid conversation about transitioning out of long-term ministry roles, the challenges of stepping away from leadership, and the importance of family. Tim opens up about the emotional toll of leaving a church he deeply loved and offers insights for pastors on avoiding burnout, managing ministry expectations, and maintaining strong relationships with family. They also dive into the unique struggles pastors face, like staying grounded in friendships outside of ministry and learning how to delegate responsibility. Whether you’re a pastor, leader, or church member, this episode is packed with wisdom about balancing ministry, family, and the transition into new seasons of life.
-
Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I am president of the Engaged Church Network, and we're glad that, that you are joining us on today's podcast. Joining me today is Tim Harlow. Tim pastored in Chicago for 33 years, and has now, like a lot of smart people- ... have moved to Nashville and, uh, because of grandkids. Yep. And so, uh, but Tim and I have been friends for a long time through some other mutual acquaintances, and you have shown up in your w- Ron Swanson- Ron Swanson for president shirt
for president shirt.
Tim Harlow: Uh, if you don't understand that reference, you should probably just turn it off right now. That's right. So- That, that's as good as it's gonna get with
Mike Glenn: us,
Tim Harlow: right?
Mike Glenn: You and I share something kind of major in common in that we have stepped away from- That we married well? From... We married, we married extremely well.
Uh, and we stepped down from, from leadership positions of over 30 years. Mm-hmm. And so what's that been like? It's been a l- a,
Tim Harlow: as you well [00:01:00] know, a lot harder than I thought it would be. Yeah. I mean, walking away from a, you know, a, a, a ministry where you had a lot of influence and a, a lot of great things happen and God wo- you saw God work a lot.
Yeah. Um, a lot of friendships. I mean, so for me, you know, moving really, was really different- Mm ... because, you know, we left all our friendships and, you know, we had to start over at a, at a different church and, you know, I, I, I work in the nursery- ... at the church that I go to, and, uh, and uh, which I- was by my choice.
Right. But, but you know, I mean, it, it, it's like nobody knows who I am. Mm-hmm. And, and that's really wonderful, but it's also, man, it's kind of a gut check. Like, okay- Mm-hmm ... maybe I, maybe I was into that a little bit more than I should have been, uh, which, you know, would be a warning for all of us- Yeah ... to step back every once in a while and see why we do the things that we do.
But, you know, to transition, I mean, I've got eight grandkids here, Mike. I mean, it, you know, it, they just keep coming. Doesn't get better. [00:02:00] They don't get better. It doesn't, it doesn't get better. I wouldn't trade this- Yeah ... for anything, but it has been a hard transition.
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah. I, uh, the thing that shocked me was how tired I was.
Oh my gosh. I mean, I stepped away and, and then I just slept.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. Uh-
Mike Glenn: Oh, I think I told you this before, but
Tim Harlow: our mutual friend Bob Merritt up at Eagle Brook- Right ... uh, he, I, I called him after he walked away, and he was like I- I- he, he would, he didn't even buzz me back- Mm-hmm ... you know, for, uh, about eight months.
And he said, "I'm just..." He said, "It's taken me eight months- Yeah, yeah ... to want to talk to anybody or write a sermon or- ... you know, or do anything." Yeah. And, and I'm at, I'm at eight months right now- Yeah ... and I'm, I'm still... Like, I'm sleeping really late in the morning and doing stuff that- Yeah ... I don't know, I, I don't know if I'm just tired or, you know, or what, but it, uh, there's a, there's an emotional thing- Mm-hmm
that, that goes on whe- especially in a job like ours where you're, you know, you're on call- Right ... 24/7. Yeah. I mean, it's hard. Regrets? [00:03:00] Um, well, you know, obviously there, there are. Um, I might... Yeah, yeah, I'll, I'll go to you on this one a little bit. I love that when you were stepping away, you already knew a lot more about what you were gonna do.
Mm-hmm. And, and so for me, um, you know, they, they gave me a, a nice runway of, of financial support and, and whatnot, but I've, I've had tr- I've had trouble discerning. I've gotten a lot of offers from a lot of different ideas- Right ... and a lot of different things. I kinda wish I w- if I was doing it again, if I was talking to me, younger me, I would say, "Why don't you figure out what that thing is and get going on it before you- Right
walk away." Mm-hmm. Um, then again, you know, a lot of my friends, you know, they... God just brings them the right thing at the right time. Yeah. And I guess God does that a lot. I don't know if you know that, but- Yeah, yeah. No, I
Mike Glenn: just... That has, that's never been my - ... that's never been
Tim Harlow: my story. It, and it's happening.
Yeah. It really is happening. [00:04:00] Yeah. But, you know, like, like, like, so, so you say, "Hey, come be on my podcast." I'm like, "Yeah, all day." Yeah. You, you say, "When are you gonna start your podcast?" And I'm like, "Uh, I don't know." Yeah. You know? "I don't know if that's what I need to do. Maybe it is. I, I don't know." So I wish I had some of that worked out a- ahead of time.
Okay.
Mike Glenn: Um, what, what would you tell a, uh, a, a younger pastor, uh, about what ultimately matters and what doesn't? I mean, we stay in a tizzy all the time because everything that we're given is of, we're told is of utmost importance. Mm-hmm. And so we announce the Bible study for left-handed truck drivers- ... with the same intensity that we do the invitation- Yeah, yeah
uh, to come follow Christ. Uh, you know, the big one for me is I think I used up a lot of energy becoming a carnival barker- Yep ... for church [00:05:00] events-
Tim Harlow: Yeah
Mike Glenn: That ultimately made no difference W-
Tim Harlow: well, it might've made a little bit of difference Well, it might have. But, yeah And, and, and that's the whole problem Yeah I mean, I- There was just enough difference that you could- It's just enough difference- Right
that, that your people are like, "You need to do this." Right. "This needs to be platformed." Mm-hmm. "This is what needs to happen." I would, I would agree with you on that. I, I got over that along the way. I think, I think when we went multi-campus, probably you too. I mean, you- Right. You can't please everybody ... you kinda gotta go, you know, with your campus pastors on all that kinda stuff and, and whatnot.
But, um, I, I... If I'm coaching younger leaders, I'm gonna say, "Get over yourself really fast." Because, um, I had a hard time letting go of the preaching. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I think I'm really good. I don't know. You? You know, I, I think I'm one of the best preachers I know. Yeah, that's right. So, so, uh- Here's what I would've done with that passage.
So, so the whole thing of, uh, of the team teaching took me... Part of it was a responsibility, I [00:06:00] think. Right And but I think part of it was just arrogance or just, you know, listening to my mom say, "Nobody's as good as you," or what- Mm ... or whatever it is. Um, a- and that has to do with decision-making. Um, I had a great executive team, and, uh, I mean, literally my executive pastor was with me for...
Well, he's still there, 21 years. And, um, I, I went to him one day. He was our small groups pastor, and I went to him one day and I said, "I need you to be my executive pastor before I kill somebody." Mm-hmm. And, and, and that was th- the beginning of an executive team that helped me run things. And for me, I feel like I've always got the right ideas too.
Right But being able to listen, just... That- that's what I'm gonna say over and over again. Just get over yourself. Mm-hmm. Listen to what the other people are saying. My executive pastor was a six on the Enneagram and, you know- Right ... I'm an eight, so- That's me ... so I'm like, "Let's go." That's right. And he's like, "Well, have you thought about this and this and this and this?"
And it was a, it was a perfect- Yeah ... it was a
Mike Glenn: perfect marriage. [00:07:00] People always tell me, "Hey, Rome wasn't built in a day." I tell them, "I wasn't on that job." You know, if- That's- If I'd been on that job- That's right ... it, there'd have been some changes. That's right. But, uh, you know, the hard thing for me w- uh, was one of, one of, one of my best friends, uh, is a, uh, is the troubleshooter for one of the largest industries in our, in our city.
Yeah Uh, healthcare. We always know where this corporation's in trouble because my buddy would get a promotion. They'd put him- ... in to turn it around. Yeah. Uh, well, he sits down with me and he says, he says, "Mike." He said, "We love you. And when you, when you teach the Bible, there's few people better. We love listening to you.
When it comes to all this other stuff, this, this administration, you suck."
Tim Harlow: Yeah, yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. And he says, "It's not hurting you now, but it will accumulate- Yeah,
Tim Harlow: yeah ...
Mike Glenn: to where people will quit listening to your preaching." Yeah. "So you need to stay in your lane." And let, and let God bring people around you- [00:08:00] And, and this is so funny- To do that
that we're having this conversation- Yeah ...
Tim Harlow: right now, because even in the preaching part- Right ... which is your absolute gift- Mm-hmm ... I remember, what was the Tuesday, Tuesday evening program you guys had? Uh, Kairos, yeah. Kairos. I re- I almost ... I didn't know you back then. Mm-hmm. My, when my oldest daughter came down here to go to Belmont- Right
she was involved with Kairos. So I, I would come, 'cause a lot of times I couldn't be there on the weekend. Mm-hmm. I'd come and we'd go to Kairos. And I remember you teaching, and r- remember thinking That was really good. But how do you have time to get, to do a Kairos and then get ready for- Yeah ... Sunday, you know?
And, and all over. 'Cause that's, that's, that's what I did. Yeah. And I, I like almost called you up- ... and like, "Dude, you need to, you know, you need to get over it." And, uh, I didn't even know you. Now I, now I could tell you that. Yeah. But I, I think, you know, I mean, so, so like even in the teaching thing, so my dad was a pastor- Mm-hmm
and, you know, he had to teach on Wednesday night- Mm-hmm ... he had to teach on Sunday morning, and had to teach on Sunday night. Everything would've been a lot better if he could've just taught on- Yeah ... Sunday morning. Yeah. And maybe only like 40 times a [00:09:00] year. A year. So, you know, so, um- Well, it's an hour a minute of
Mike Glenn: preparation time.
A- absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I agree. Uh, and, uh- And- ... and p- you know, church, church members would tell me, "You know, we just don't have the great preachers." I said, "You don't want them." Yeah. You won't let them be great. No. Uh- 'Cause, 'cause
Tim Harlow: you need them to do other things. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, but that's changing, I think, with the, with the culture the way it is- Yeah
a little bit. But it, yeah, I mean, that's, that's... I, I would say get over yourself, allow other people to help you. Um, you know, I, I had a burnout period. Mm-hmm. Um, ironically, like, and it's not even ironic, but y- most people would tell you it was at the height of, we'd finally relocated. Right. You know? It took us 13 years to transition the church into a church that had its head out of its backside and, and, and was ready to take care of the lost people.
And we relocated and we blew up and, and I was working on my dissertation, and [00:10:00] all of a sudden I had one of those, you know, Saturday evening service things, I can't go out and preach moments. Yeah. Come- And- ... uh, come apart, as they say. It, it was- Yeah, yeah ... I had a come apart. Yeah. And I was able to get through it, and God, I mean, it was a great story of what God had already lined up for me to get- Mm-hmm
to get ready to, to, to, to heal. But, but, but when I, when I was heading into that, I can just tell you that the whole, the whole thing was about, okay, I finally got what I want. I finally am going to the right place, and, and my hair was on fire. Mm-hmm. And, and I am a guy that loves having his hair on fire.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Tim Harlow: And, and that's what killed me. And the interesting thing is,
Mike Glenn: is those moments, y- you think they're gonna come after a moment of failure and defeat. They don't. Exactly. No. They come after moments of great success. Yeah. It's Elijah. When... Yeah. Right? Yeah. When you've pulled it off and it can't get any better.
You ran faster than
Tim Harlow: a chariot- That's right ... and now you're in a cave- That's right. ... and
Mike Glenn: you're depressed, and you wanna kill yourself. Yeah. And how many of us- How many of us would say, "If I ever just saw one miracle, I'd never doubt again"? Right.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, [00:11:00] yeah.
Mike Glenn: You know, if I could get a candle to light- Yeah ... much less fire from heaven like that- Yeah.
if I could just get a little pfft, I would never doubt again. But it's obviously not enough. No. Uh, you think it would be. Now, y- you said something interesting. You were k- you were kinda flying by, and I wanna go back to it, because this is always a hot topic. You talked about how many friends you were leaving in Chicago.
Yeah. And there are a lot of, of us in the ministry who would say, "I can't find friends. I don't know if I can have friends in the church. Is that even allowed?" Yeah. So what, what would be your thoughts, your suggestion to, to pastors about friendships?
Tim Harlow: My, uh, I've got 20 years now of, uh, partnership with three other pastors.
Mm-hmm. We call ourselves the Stinklings because C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were the Inklings- Inklings ... and we're not that good. We're the Stinklings. So, um, we ... [00:12:00] And they were all at, you know, I say were because one of them has transitioned to a different ministry, but we were all in churches about the same size- Uh-huh
in the Midwest, in, in places. Most pe- But not
Mike Glenn: necessarily in the same city.
Tim Harlow: No, not at all. Okay. No. We had Baltimore, uh, Cleveland area, Springfield, Illinois, and Chicago. Okay. So, um, no. And, and we covenanted together way back 20 years ago to, to do, finish out ministry together. Mm-hmm. And, and we still are.
I'll be with them in a few weeks. Um, I would say that the main thing I, I would be really, uh, I, I, I wanna really encourage you, is to find friends that are in ministry and not in your ministry. And find friends that you can be with, and you can go to conferences, and you can do all that kind of stuff. And you can sit around...
Oh, my goodness, if the walls could speak about how much we- Yeah, and, and go back
Mike Glenn: to law school. That was always our joke. Yeah. I'm, I'm gonna go back to law school. Yeah, right.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it, it, it, it, just somebody you can complain about, complain to, all those things, [00:13:00] um, have fun with. I also was able to make friends with my elders, and I'm saying that kind of haltingly- Mm-hmm
because it's not always easy to do. Mm-hmm. Um, I, uh, some of them I was closer to than others. Some of them, those relationships fell apart along the way. But I, uh, most of m- my eldership, my, my leadership, I had trained up before they became. Right. So we were already friends before they were in a leadership position.
But I also had some of my closest friends that I would not let be in leadership- In eldership ... that, that were in my church.
Mike Glenn: Because you need the kitchen cabinet. Yeah. That's what I always found to be. You need, you need three or four people that are in your kitchen cabinet- Yeah ... who will tell you the truth.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, yeah. And that you can complain about the elders- Right ... you know? I mean, you know, or, or, you know, or whatever. But yeah, I, I mean, so I don't think there's a [00:14:00] rule of thumb, Mike. I, I mean, I, I, you, you've gotta... What I, what I hate is when I hear guys have been taught you can't have friends in your congregation.
I mean, that, that's, that's- That's up to you. Right.
Mike Glenn: I mean, it, that's your deal. Well, my thing is there are a lot of business meetings the church has that you're not invited to. And they happen in the parking lot. Yeah, yeah. And they happen in the hallway. Yeah, yeah. You better have a friend in those meetings.
Absolutely. Absolutely. You better have somebody who knows you- Yeah. Uh, yeah ... giving input, or you're gonna be in trouble. Yeah,
Tim Harlow: and has your back. Mm-hmm. Yeah, all day.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, and I mean, that's, that's, that's been... I mean, honestly, the fact that, you know, I already knew you- Mm-hmm ... and, and several of the other pastors in the area- Mm-hmm
you know, through Ramsey, through some of that stuff, f- when I moved here, that made things a lot easier because I already had those things. Right. And so I, I would say that, you know, if you're not find- if you don't have anybody now, lean [00:15:00] into the ones that are outside- Right ... you, you know. You're, this is the 21st century.
Your, your good friends don't have to live next door, you know? You can figure that out. That's
Mike Glenn: right. Interested in a comment that I just saw. Uh, a- actually, it was the last thing of your bio now. Oh. About how excited you are- Yeah ... about what God's doing- Yeah ... right now. I'm like you. I, you know, I know there's all the naysayers and people aren't going to church.
They aren't going to church like they used to, but they're finding Christ in a lot of different ways and a lot of different places. Yeah. And I think now is absolutely the best time to be doing this. I do, too. A- and that's- I, and I'm a little frustrated that I'm almost 68 years old because Oh, oh, and that's what...
That, that sounds weird coming from a couple old guys that have- Yeah. ... that have
Tim Harlow: walked away from their
Mike Glenn: church. Man, I would, I, you know. But, but
Tim Harlow: don't, don't hear this as- Yeah ... we're old guys that have walked away from our church. I mean, i- i- in both of our cases, we're excited about what the church that we gave our life to- Oh, yeah
is
Mike Glenn: going [00:16:00] through now- Yeah ... with their new leadership. Well, see, I stepped away because, one, it was the right time for me. Yeah. And it was the right time for the church. Yeah. See, and, and you know this. We pastored four or five churches at the same address. Yeah. And w- Yeah ... instead of going to another church- I know, yeah
we stayed and, and, and- Yep ... and did the transition with them. We were getting ready to go through a sixth or seventh transition. Yeah. And it was, we were on the front step, and I said, "You know, that's not fair." Yeah. Uh, for me to do that. And it was a good time to make the transition
Tim Harlow: It, it, it's not only not fair, I, I mean, I, I really feel like coming, coming out of COVID, we all did what we needed to do- Right.
and, and we all, you know. But, uh, there's a lot of us that are like, "Okay, there's a, there's- That's right ... that is a, that is a new, a new thing that's- Mm-hmm ... going on now. And I, and I, I just believe that the guy that replaced me is 43, and I remember the energy that I had at 43. Oh, yeah. I didn't, I didn't know everything, uh, that I know now, but I had the [00:17:00] energy and the appeal to the congregation that, uh, that I think, I think it's different.
But at the same time, what we're doing here and, and what you and I are involved in is, is we're not, like, just going out and playing golf. Matter of fact, we haven't played at all. No. And, uh, we're not, we're not just hanging out and, you know, drinking coffee and talking about the good old days. Mm-hmm. We're trying to invest ourselves in the next generation and what is going to happen going forward.
Uh, political s- uh, situation aside, I mean, I, I really think what we're seeing is a lot of people that are tired of everything else and looking for hope- Yeah ... and, and they're finding it where they're supposed to find
Mike Glenn: it. They are asking questions that Jesus answers. There you go. Identity, purpose- Exactly right
meaning. Yeah. All of those are Jesus questions. Yes, you're right. And he answers them better than anybody.
Tim Harlow: Absolutely. So. And, and they know th- a- a- and I think they're open to that. Right. Uh, they, uh, they, we've just gotta try to get the [00:18:00] local church at the point where it could be, um, the disseminator of the Jesus- Of, of, of-
that they're looking for ... the Jesus gospel, yeah. And that's not
Mike Glenn: always easy- Mm-hmm ... for them to find. So what is, as we wrap things up, what, what do you want our, our pastors to hear?
Great
Tim Harlow: question. Someday you're gonna be old- ... and retired, and the most important thing was, as you look back, was your wife and your family. Mm-hmm I, I, I know that I- The most important sermon you preach ... is the most s- uh, I mean, the fact that we live close to our three daughters and our, you know- Mm-hmm
son-in-laws and eight grandkids, um, is kind of a testament because a lot of people are like, "Well, uh-" Yeah ... you know, I wouldn't wanna do that, and the, and the family wouldn't wanna be together. At the end of the day, that's the [00:19:00] most important thing- Mm-hmm ... I'm responsible to and for is, was, is my 40-year marriage and my, you know, my family and what happens with them going forward.
Um, if I did anything, you know, we had Saturday night services- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we were in Chicago. We started in the year 2000. Um, so my kids were young. We were doing Saturday night, Sunday morning- Mm-hmm ... all that kind of stuff. But, but my wife e- especially helped me make that work, and we tried to keep the family at, at the- Mm-hmm
at the top of the, of the pyramid. I'm ambitious. I probably travel too much. I probably did too much. But it, you know, now that I'm looking back, what a- what am I proud... I'm proud of the, the church and, and what we built, but I'm living in- Yeah ... the family that
Mike Glenn: was, that was given to me. Yeah. Someone asked me once, "What are you proudest of?"
And I said, "You know, honestly, the thing I'm proudest of is that both my boys found their faith- Absolutely ... and are [00:20:00] now living it out in their own families." Absolutely. Uh, so-
Tim Harlow: It, it, it's absolutely true ... and that that's- I mean, I, I could, I could go on and on about that, but I just, I, I think, um, if, if there's a, if there's a, you know, it's Andy Stanley's choosing to cheat thing.
Mm-hmm. Th- there's not enough time to do everything that you're going to do, so make sure you get to read to your kids before- Yeah ... they go to bed. And, you know? Or, um- And go on a vacation ... have a late, have a, have
Mike Glenn: a late breakfast with your wife and head into the office late. Yeah. Don't, yeah, don't worry about
Tim Harlow: that.
You don't have to take every breakfast meeting. Mm-mm. You don't have to take any breakfast... Towards the end, I stopped taking breakfast meetings 'cause it just, it just didn't work for me,
Mike Glenn: you know? Yeah. That, that's hard to see a church member that early in the morning - Oh, oh, my goodness, yeah ... before I've had a good cup of coffee or whatever.
Tim Harlow: So- Exactly right.
Mike Glenn: I don't care how much bacon you bring me. No. That, there's just not enough. It's, it's just not enough. All right. This is Tim Harlow, and I am Mike Glenn. Thank you for being with us on this podcast. [00:21:00] This is the Engage Church, Church Network, and we're delighted you joined us. So look forward to seeing you next time.
