The Pastor Shortage: A Call to Action for Tennessee Churches feat. Randy Davis
In this episode of the Engaged Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn sits down with his longtime friend Randy Davis, Executive Director of the Tennessee Baptist Mission Board. With over 15 years of experience, Randy shares insights on the current crisis in church leadership, where hundreds of churches across Tennessee are without pastors. Together, they discuss the importance of identifying and training the next generation of pastors, the role of mentors in ministry, and how churches need to think differently about leadership pipelines moving forward.
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Mike glenn: Time, uh, most of our time talking about the challenge of I'll walk. Okay. Of the pipeline.
And new pastors and shortage pastors and how we need to address that, what you're finding out and, and what we can, how we wanna do for that. Okay.
Randy Davis: Okay.
Mike glenn: Now with that. Uh, and the reason is Randy has done a lot of work with the state convention.
Mm-hmm. On, you know, there's like, what, 400 churches right
Randy Davis: now? Yeah. Estimated 400 churches
Mike glenn: without pastors. With without pastors. Wow. And no access to Well, we don't, in Tennessee. In Tennessee alone. And we don't know what to do. There's gonna be a rash of people retiring. 'cause we got, I've got a lot of them over 60.
Yeah. And we don't have nearly as many under 40. Yeah. So there's a coming. Tied away for this. But he's done a lot of work on that. Now, my question to you is, do we say anything about the conference? No. No? Mm-hmm. Okay. [00:01:00] Because that, that dated,
this will come out after the conference.
Mike glenn: Okay. Yeah.
So, um, I mean, I think if you say anything about the conference, you need to talk as if it already happened.
Mike glenn: Okay.
Yeah. So,
Mike glenn: okay. Well we just,
we can, we can cut it out.
Mike glenn: We just, we just don't, we just won't, we just won't do that then we'll just,
and I mean, you can say that's why we have events like the Every Palm Makes Makes Conference.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
That happened in August. So talk as a, you know, you can, okay. We can say little brief things like that.
Um, but I wouldn't.
Mike glenn: Okay. That's, yeah.
So don't anything for me.
Mike glenn: Thank you. I just got it.
Great. I need to go, uh, serve my love with her. So I'll see y'all tomorrow.
Randy Davis: See y'all later.
Mike glenn: She's, uh, she's on the worship team at Station Hill.
Randy Davis: Oh, good.
Mike glenn: So she thinks she's a big deal.
Randy Davis: Our CFO goes to Station Hill to,
Mike glenn: so we tell, yeah.
We tell 'em. Uh, there's a lot of musicians in Nashville. Nothing, nothing [00:02:00] special. Mm-hmm. You ready to go? I'm rolling. All righty. Hi, I am Mike Glenn and I am the president of the Engaged Church Network and we are glad you joined us for our PO podcast today. Let's do that again. Hi, I am Mike Glenn and I'm glad to welcome you to this podcast for the Engaged Church Network.
Joining me today is my longtime friend. How long have you been friends, Randy?
Randy Davis: 15 years.
Mike glenn: Yeah. At least. Uh, Randy Pastored, uh, several churches in Tennessee. The last one being, uh, first Baptist Church of Sevierville. So if you've ever been to Dollywood and, uh, all of that area in the Great Smokies, you have probably, uh, visited his, his church, uh, for the last.
Uh, 14, 15 years. He has been the executive, uh, director of, uh, the Tennessee Baptist Missions Board. And, uh, Randy and I go way back and one of the reasons that I wanna talk to Randy is that he is working on something that is really close to my [00:03:00] heart, and that is the identification and training and, uh. And commissioning of young pastors.
Uh, now the other day we talked and you talked about some of the research you'd been doing, uh, about pastors in Tennessee. So kind of, kind of start, uh, with, with what you're finding out there.
Randy Davis: Uh, well, pastor Mike, it's really a crisis right now. Uh, not just in Baptist life, but an evangelical life right across the board.
We've had seminaries closing down and are relocating mm-hmm. And merging and, um. It, it's very much like what's happening in the accounting world or in the medical world or in the educational world. Uh, those, those disciplines do not have enough people that are trained either. Mm-hmm. The difference is, and, uh, uh, in, in, in the area of pastoring and ministry leadership.
Um, these people are called to do that. You don't choose that vocation, right. You may be God called to do something else. Mm-hmm. [00:04:00] But you also choose that vocation. Uh, this is a choosing right now in Tennessee, we've got, uh, roughly 400 of our 3000 churches that are without pastors. It might be more. The, president of New Orleans Seminary has done some research across the nation and he puts it at 20 to 25% of churches being without pastors.
Now, if that translated to Tennessee, just in our Baptist network That would be 600 or more churches without pastors.
Mike glenn: And these are churches of all sizes. 'cause
Randy Davis: Yeah, the average church in Tennessee is, has an average worship tend of 115.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: So they are churches of all size. And when you talk about, okay, how are we gonna populate this empty pipeline, we've gotta think radically different than we thought in the past.
Mike glenn: Right? How did we get here?
Randy Davis: You
Mike glenn: know what, what, what are your guesses? I, I, I don't wanna put you on the spot.
Randy Davis: Too bad. No, that's all right. I, you [00:05:00] know, I don't know exactly how we got here. I would surmise we got here because, um, you and I came out of the last. Spiritual awakening that we had in America. Right.
Which was the Jesus movement in the seventies or eighties. And there were a lot of people being called into ministry out of that spiritual awakening. Mm-hmm. We haven't had a spiritual awakening like it since. And uh, we also. Um, this is just personal antidote. We became too locked into a, preacher boy going to some Christian school, which is awfully good.
And, and then going on to seminary. Mm-hmm. And then after seven or eight years of preparation, he was ready. You and I had mentors in our lives, right? It wasn't an academic thing that poured into us. It was actually people on the front lines, tremendously good, [00:06:00] mature, healthy pastors that coached us along, right?
And I think the paradigm have shifted somewhat. To, uh, people that are called are relying way too much on some kind of educational system Right. To get 'em ready for ministry.
Mike glenn: Yeah. And there's certain, you know, I, tell people all the time, old people taught me how to pastor old guys. And, uh, every state knew who those guys were.
And, and you would gravitate toward the nearest one. Toward you and your little church, and they're the one that taught you how to visit a hospital, how to handle a business meeting or
Randy Davis: mm-hmm.
Mike glenn: How to, how to, you know, you lead the leaders of your congregation, how to put all that together. You didn't learn that at at seminary.
That came from a cup of coffee with Har Sims and Jimmy Harley, and a lot of these guys that just. Loved me for some reason and, and made it their business to take care of me. You probably had the same, uh, kind of experience.
Randy Davis: Oh, I [00:07:00] did. I was on the other end of the state of Alabama From you. Right? You were North End.
I was down around the beach. But men like Fred Wolf and John Merck, uh, poured themselves into me. Mm-hmm. Horace Glass, the first associational missionary that I, that of the first church I pastored in that area of South Mississippi. And, uh, you would call them about everything, right. Any there was and, and they were always so receptive.
Mike glenn: You know, that, that's the thing. You say Fred Wolf and a lot of these, uh, of our listeners may not, uh, know who he was, but, but he was like the bishop of Lower Alabama.
Randy Davis: Yeah.
Mike glenn: Uh, I mean he had the big church in Mobile. Everybody knew who he was. Uh, Adrian Rogers was a bishop here in Tennessee. Everybody knew who he was.
Charles Carter and Birmingham. Yeah. Pastors of huge churches. Would take a phone call from a little boy out at Mount Pisca number two and, and love on him and encourage him and, and then answers questions, and help him grow in the ministry. Um. I, I [00:08:00] think one of the things that has happened is we have lost this relationship, uh, between the older pastors and the newer and the younger pastors for, for some reason the younger pastors don't think that maybe there's anything to learn from the older guys and the older guys don't think I have anything to give.
Uh, but anytime we can encourage that kind of conversation, I, I think is important and vital, uh, to, to the pastoral ministry.
Randy Davis: Yeah. You know, you mentioned, uh, brother Fred. Um, I got to know his ministry assistant well, yeah. I sent her flowers and I, I asked her if she could ask Brother Fred for me, if I could just drive him to his preaching engagements.
Yeah. Because he never would miss Sunday. He wouldn't miss Wednesday night at his church. Right. But Mondays and Tuesdays, he was preaching somewhere on the coast and so I got to where I was his driver. Now we drove his car. We [00:09:00] didn't drive my car, but uh, I would get a chance to pick his brain and talk to him about life and ministry.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, something like 15 or 17 or 18 years later, he recommended me to the first church I served in Tennessee, first Baptist Morristown. And it was, it was that recommendation, right. That got me to Tennessee 33 years ago.
Mike glenn: Right now and in your role now leading the Tennessee Baptist, uh, mission board, you've been doing a lot of research and a lot of planning.
To, to address this issue. And I've been talking to you and, and friends like Jay, uh, hard, uh, Hardwick Hardwick over at, uh, forest Hills.
Randy Davis: Yeah.
Mike glenn: Uh, the president, uh, uh, of the convention now, about your, your, uh, plans to address this. So you wanna talk about some of that or what we did? Are we breaking? Are we breaking it before you're ready to talk about it?
Randy Davis: No, I'm ready to talk about it. We've [00:10:00] been talking about it to our board now for all summer and, um. The convention will either say, yeah, let's go in that direction, or not in November. But the beauty of this thing is it, it didn't start in a boardroom, uh, with a mission board. It, it started with grassroots, Tennessee Baptist.
Mm-hmm. We had listening sessions around the state, talk to a thousand to 1200 attend, and we asked them, what are the problems you're seeing? What are the opportunities are before you, and what are the obstacles to us getting the gospel to everybody in Tennessee? And we heard a lot about foster care and the need of foster care.
We heard a lot about mental health and the need to address that crisis. Uh, we heard a lot about discipleship methodology. What is out there that, um, will help us make disciples. We heard a lot about how do we disciple our children as families.
Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: Uh, and we also heard, uh, about how do we speak into this [00:11:00] culture that is changing so rapidly in a convictional manner that is bathed in compassion so we don't sound like jerks or bigots, right?
When we espouse biblical truth, but we must stick to biblical truth in, in doing so. But the thing that percolated to the top the fastest was we do not have enough ministry leaders. Uh, in, in order to, to even have a dent in the population growth of Tennessee, we need to be planting almost a church every week somewhere in the state.
Mm-hmm. Um. But out of this research came the fact that anywhere from 350 to 650 churches, depending on what you look like, Baptist churches are without pastors. That is somewhere between 10 and 25% of our churches do not have a pastor. Um, so you know many of these church and, and, and the [00:12:00] key is that many of these churches cannot support a full-time pastor.
Uh, I understand there's one pastor that's up around Clarksville that's pastoring two different churches.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: We're, we're moving back to the circuit writing days. Right. So that's the kind of paradigm shift we need. We, we don't need, need to think in terms of pastors as being those that have been to college and seminary.
Now they're ready to pastor. Um, I look at three legs. Um, we need to first of all come alongside the guys that are in the pulpits and the people that are leading ministries now.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: And give them a massive dose of encouragement and equipping.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: We need to let 'em know you're not alone in what you're doing.
That, uh, we're with you. And because there are, um, burnout can be overused mm-hmm. And become a crutch and an excuse. But there are many people [00:13:00] really experiencing ministry burnout.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: And if you don't know how that a healthy, in a healthy manner go, lead in ministry, then it can break your health.
Mm-hmm. Um, so, so we need to do that. I call that the Moses moment, right? When we hold up the arms of the Moses. But there's also Brother Mike. I think there's a lot of Amos out there, you know, before he was a prophet. He was a layman.
Mike glenn: Right.
Randy Davis: And there are some 40 and 50 and 60 year olds on the pews
Mike glenn: whose credibility will be enhanced because they were a layman before they were a pastor.
Randy Davis: Oh, absolutely.
Mike glenn: See, AMA said, listen, I'm a, I'm a farmer, but lemme tell you what I know. And somebody who can come out of a secular occupation and says, listen, I was, I was like you. Now here's what I know, that that is a, a different platform. Than, than than you and I will ever have.
Randy Davis: You know, and we need those people to, we need to come alongside them And say to them, [00:14:00] you know, we, we, for eight months, we want to equip you and walk with you as you learn this new role.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: With all of your experiences. And by the way, here's Mike Glenn. That is going to come alongside you as your coach for the first 18 months you're in ministry.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: And anything else online they wanna do that?
There's so much available right now, but. I, I think the, and then Timothy's, um, there are young Timothy's out there that we need to mentor, that we need to coach, that we need to encourage and let them know that, look, the believers across Tennessee are gonna walk with you, and that we're gonna give you every resource we can to make sure you're equipped for ministry leadership, pastoring, or whatever the trouble is, brother Mike, I don't think we have given.
The Amos and the Timothy's out there an opportunity to respond to God's call. [00:15:00] We have been bold enough to say to them, why don't you pray about
Mike glenn: mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: What your role in ministry's going to be. It might be to be a great follower of Christ sitting in the pew and, and being involved in ministry that way.
But, uh, there are a lot that I believe are waiting. I'm encouraged. I think there are a lot of Timothy's out there.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: Uh, but we've gotta. Call 'em.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it used to be when you and I were growing up, the invitation was to come to Christ, come join the church, or consider full-time Christian service.
I mean, that was the. The full invitation now, not so much no. With that, uh, but, but I think we've had so many negatives out there of negative leadership of churches that have not been healthy and, and, and, and have not ended well for, for some of our friends in ministry. Um, and had, have kind of discouraged some people to go into, uh, [00:16:00] into the ministry, but that was not my experience.
Uh, and, uh, I, I, I loved every, every, okay. I love most of the days. We also invited my business people
Randy Davis: to repent. That had been lying. Yeah, that's
Mike glenn: right. Yeah.
Randy Davis: No, you know, brother Mike, that's a strong point because we've gotta change the narrative.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: Um, washing the feet of the bride of Christ is the most honorable thing anybody can do.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: And I think serving the bride of Christ is remarkable. I pastored for 34 years, uh, two churches in East Tennessee, two in the south Mississippi, and I'm like you, I can tell you it was a 34 year honeymoon.
Mike glenn: Yeah,
Randy Davis: my wife Jeannie, loved it. My kids are not warped. You know, they're in their early forties and they're serving the Lord and active in their churches.
Mm-hmm. Along with their families. And, uh, I think ministry, [00:17:00] uh, is just awesome. It's a high calling. It is a good calling. And we've gotta change the narrative and quit beating up.
Mike glenn: Yeah. Agreed.
Randy Davis: Um, that calling,
Mike glenn: so what would you say to those pastors who are. Who are saying, oh, okay, Randy, listen, it, it, the job already have is 110 hours a week.
So what in the world am I gonna do if I take on a Timothy?
Randy Davis: Well, I, I, you know, I, we've all got 24 hours in a day. Mm-hmm. And we can only do so much. And, and I would say to them, I completely understand that. Mm-hmm. And if you can't, you can't. But is this important enough that you let go of something else?
Mike glenn: Right.
Randy Davis: That you stop doing something you're doing to pick this mantle up because we're in a crisis mode. And if you are an Elijah and you have an Elijah, it's time to pass that mantle on. Mm-hmm. [00:18:00] But you gotta be very intentional about it when you decide to do it.
Mike glenn: Right. Uh, in, in my own study, I found it interesting that, of, all the things that Jesus could have done.
The model of his ministry is he took 12, and of those 12 he took 3 And of the 3 he had 1 All of them at different levels of leadership, training and, engagement. Paul, everything he did had a Timothy and a Titus. Sends Timothy to Ephesus Titus Decree and says, listen, here's what I want you to do.
Now, you would think those letters would be about evangelism. They're about leadership. Here's who you look for, here's who you train and here's what they do. So I'm under the conviction now, that I, think half of, a [00:19:00] pastor's job. Is to identify and train the next generation of pastors.
Randy Davis: I, I think I would totally agree with you.
Yeah. In possessing that conviction. I, I'm encouraged from the standpoint of, I'm finding more and more as we've investigated, pastors are training the next generation.
Mike glenn: Mm-hmm.
Randy Davis: Um, I've heard of two pastors this week that have been teaching four or five young men how to preach. And that they, um, pretty remarkable.
But it would be great if we could network all of these type programs I across the state so that we shared best practices. We shared names. Mm-hmm. And we could be praying over a pipeline of three or 400 that are preparing for ministry. Last spring, I was asked to speak at a breakfast of, uh, asked to speak at a meeting of about 450 from our [00:20:00] secular University Baptist Collegiate Ministries.
These were leaders on these campuses. And, uh, the leader said, um, you're gonna be preaching during the day, but in the morning could you have a breakfast with somebody that feels called into ministry Two years ago I said, I'd love to, and they said, we expect there'll be about 25 there. And there were 95
Mike glenn: mm.
Randy Davis: And then this past year we had just a coffee with those that are exploring a call to ministry and there were 140 university students. And the other thing that we've gotta have a little bit a shift in our thinking about is the fact that, uh, the number of churches that have a full-time pastor is in the minority,
Mike glenn: right?
Randy Davis: There is a young man that's pastor over in Herman, in East Tennessee that is a pharmacist, and he has two pharmacies and he's pastoring [00:21:00] one of the. Fastest growing churches in the area.
Mike glenn: Hmm.
Randy Davis: He has hundreds in worship, and here's a businessman that has a, he's a young man, growing family. Just had a new baby a few months ago, and yet I think that's the model, right, of what we're gonna be looking for in the future.
Mike glenn: The interesting thing is, is that as we meet these new challenges, we're going back to the old ways.
Randy Davis: Yes, we are.
Mike glenn: See, every, every, every Paul makes a Timothy. It's gonna be the churches that grow up, the pastors. It's going to be small house churches that then lead to the larger congregations. And it's gonna be a guy who has another job that pays the bills, tent making, as Paul would say, and, uh, and then is able, is able to preach.
So what, um, what. T talk to two people right now. One, talk to the pastor who needs to start being a mentor and talk to the young pastor about how, how important it is. [00:22:00] 'cause, 'cause you and I share that same story. Uh, we would not be who we are with without the mentors in our lives. So first one, what are you gonna say to the pastor who needs to be a mentor?
Randy Davis: Well, I'm gonna cast the vision for him about the great need that we have right now. And I'm gonna say to who much is given, much is required. Mm-hmm. God's given you 15, 20, 30, 40 years of experience and who are you passing that on to? Uh, who are you gonna pour into? Is there one or two that you can spend x number of years that are ahead of you replicating yourself?
Um. That is as biblical and you've cited some, some, um, biblical foundation for doing that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And I would appeal to him like that. I would appeal to the young man. I'd tell him my story. Your story of, of the people that have impacted our lives and [00:23:00] asked them. For the sake of the kingdom.
Submit yourself to somebody else that is ready to pour them their lives and their experience into you. And the tive of counselors, there's safety. Another way to translate that word is success, and you need people in that pouring into your life. You know, I had a, in the churches I've pastored, I've been fortunate that there have been quite a few called into ministry.
Mike glenn: Yeah.
Randy Davis: And over the last few years I had more and more of them coming back from seminary, telling me everything I'd done wrong for all those years. So we've gotta get over ourselves and develop a teachable spirit.
Mike glenn: Yeah. Yeah. With that. So, but, um, you know, like you, I am, I'm excited. Uh, about what, what I see God doing.
I think this is going to be the best time for the church and for the gospel message that we have seen in, in a very long time. Thank you for being with us. Randy, uh, you honor me. Love being your friend. Uh, this is [00:24:00] Randy Davis. I am Mike Glen, the President of the Engaged Church Network. Thanks for being with us today.
We'll look forward to seeing you the next time.
And that's a wrap.
Randy Davis: Thank you, Daniel.
Yeah. That's a good one.
Mike glenn: Well done. Well done.
You must have really practiced that, uh, 18 to 22. Was it 18 to 20, or 18 to 22 minute window. 'cause you're almost right to the second. Uh,
Mike glenn: that's all. You know, Ted, Ted did all the research. TED talks.
Mm-hmm.
Mike glenn: After 18 minutes, you quit listening to new stuff and start thinking about what you've already, what you just heard.
Mm-hmm. But you're no longer engaged in the presentation.
Randy Davis: I didn't know that.
Mike glenn: Yeah.
Randy Davis: And you've been, you been like right on the,
Mike glenn: so, so when you're talking and you, and you start getting into that, I stopped listening and.
