Beyond Seminary: Why Pastors Must Be Lifelong Learners feat. Darrell Gwaltney
In this episode, Mike Glenn, president of the Engaged Church Network, and Darrell Gwaltney, board chairman, discuss the importance of lifelong learning for pastors. They explore how pastors must stay curious, humble, and disciplined to grow in their ministry, sharing personal insights on topics like Greek language study, theology, and leadership. Whether you're a pastor or church leader, this conversation is filled with practical advice for continuing your growth. Subscribe for more inspiring discussions tailored to church leaders!
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I'm Mike Glenn, and I am the president of The Engaged Church Network, and we are glad you have joined us for our podcast. The purpose of this podcast is to, uh, engage in a conversation with pastors and leaders of local congregations about issues and, uh, topics that are of particular concern to us. Uh, there's a lot of things you can talk about.
We really wanna focus on pastors and local churches. One of the challenges of being a pastor in our time is you have to become an expert, or at least be able to speak confidently, on more topics and more issues than ever b- ever before in history. And that means you're gonna have to become a student of everything for the rest of your life.
I know some of us walked away from seminary thinking, "Hey, I'm never [00:01:00] gonna read a book again." Well, it doesn't work out that way. We have to discipline ourselves to become lifelong learners. Joining me today is my good friend, Darrell Gwaltney, who in, uh, full disclosure here, is also the chairman of the board of The Engaged Church Network.
He showed up late for a meeting, and- ... you know, e- either be present or be president. You guys know how that goes. And so he's now the president of the board, and we are, uh, glad to have him. Now, let me tell you a little bit about Darrell. Uh, Darrell and I have known each other 15, 20 years now. 20 years.
Something like that. Yeah, 20 years, yeah. Uh, when he came and joined the faculty at Belmont University as the dean of, uh, the School of Religion. Uh, he has pastored in, uh, Florida and, uh, several churches here in Tennessee. Mm-hmm. Uh, has done re- a lot of good work on The Intentional Interim. Uh, but we do a lot of conversations about what book have you read, [00:02:00] uh, what have you found out, did you see this article?
And so that's a lot of our conversation, so I said, "Hey, why don't we kind of help, uh, hold that conversation, uh, for the pastors of Middle Tennessee and kind of help them with this discipline?" Now, we, we both went to seminary about the same time. I think I was a little ahead of you. Yeah. Uh, and so you walk out of seminary and you say, "I'm never gonna read a book again," especially a big, fat book- Right
written by some German author. And then you realize, "If I'm gonna continue to do my job-" And fulfill my calling with any kind of integrity, then I'm gonna read a lot more Right. Mm-hmm ... a lot more. So, so let's talk about that process of how you become a lifelong learner in the pressures
Darrell Gwaltney: of the local church.
Right, yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think that this is a little piece of, like, when you graduate from seminary, whatever, you, you say, [00:03:00] "I wanna read books that I wanna read- That's right. ... not the ones that they tell me I have to read." And, uh, th- that's a really, a good thing to be aware of. Mm-hmm. I, I think that, uh, lifelong learning is really about opportunity and, and it's about the things you do.
Mm-hmm. So you have the opportunity to learn. What are you gonna do with that opportunity- Mm-hmm ... is a, is a good question. And, uh, when it comes down to the learning, it is about actually practicing that learning process. Um, I, uh, I think back to when I, I graduated, like, I'm, I'm an old guy now. That's right.
So, you know, uh, you reach a point in your life where you start counting things in decades. Like, not like, five years ago. I know. It's like, 10- Man, 10 years is- ... 20, 30, 40 years ago ... years, right, yeah. Some one of these guys who graduated from, uh, seminary, oh, my goodness, 40 years ago. Yeah. And if I wanted to read a book, I had to buy the book.
Buy the book. Yeah. Or go to the library. Had to go to the library. And hope a doctoral student- Exactly ... hadn't checked it out. Yeah. And, and, and I [00:04:00] had... I wanted to take a class, I had to go to a school- Yeah ... and sit in a classroom. And none of that's true now. Right. I mean, it's so much easier- Mm-hmm ... to learn now.
I have an iPad, and on my iPad, I have a program that has eight or nine study Bibles on it- Mm-hmm ... and 27 translations of Scripture, and three or four sets of commentaries and Bible dictionaries. Uh, and it's all- All right there ... and, and that doesn't even count the 200 some odd books I have in my Kindle app- Mm-hmm
you know. And, and then if I wanna read something, I can just go online. Right. I can, I can go to the library online- It, it, it'll happen ... and they'll send me a book. Yeah. You know, so it's like... So there's no shortage- Mm-hmm ... of opportunity now for, for learning. And so I think that one of the, one of the biggest challenges for all of us is, is to lean into that, uh, discipline of continuing our learning.
Mm-hmm. And some of that is a [00:05:00] function of what we want to do, like, what, what are we curious about doing? Mm-hmm. Uh, I, uh, like I said, f- 40 years ago, I graduated from, finished my theological education. And at that time, I could read the New Testament in Greek really well. I'd open it up- That's right ... and I could read it.
And I didn't, I didn't keep the discipline when I graduated from school, when I had professors asking me to translate for tests. Yeah, they didn't, didn't keep up the practice or yeah. Yeah, I didn't keep up the practice of it, the discipline of reading all the time. Mm-hmm. And so I lost it.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrell Gwaltney: And, and I kept like, "Okay, I'm gonna learn it again.
I'm gonna learn it again." I kept doing that over the years. And finally, about three years ago, I made a commitment to myself, I'm gonna recapture, regain my Greek skills, and I began doing a, a daily online thing called Daily Dose of Greek, and five minutes a day I read a little [00:06:00] Greek. Been doing that for two years, and doing a bit more translating.
Mm-hmm. And then I started taking, uh, earlier this year, I took, uh, a class on Greek, a Greek translation of the book of Philippians with Rob Plummer from Southern Seminary. All right. Uh, and- Rob grew up in Brentwood Baptist Church. And I know that. He s- he shared that with me. Yeah. Yes. You know, I was telling him about this.
He said, "Where do you go to church?" I said, "Brentwood." And he says, "Oh, I know that church." Yeah. Um, anyway, so this summer I did Jude in July with him. Mm-hmm. And I'm signed up to do Colossians in the spring, a regular online class, exegetical translation of the New, Greek New Testament. I'm probably about a year away.
Mike Glenn: Now a- a- and let's, uh, let's stop here just 'cause I know Rob, uh, uh, uh, pretty well. We not only had the opportunity to relearn our Greek, but Rob Plummer is one of the premier Greek scholars- Sure, exactly ... in all of evangelical work right now. Right. Well, he's
Darrell Gwaltney: tremendously skilled. Yeah. And so, so the, uh, the, uh,
Mike Glenn: you talk about opportunity, we not only have the opportunity, but we have the opportunity to learn from some of the best- Right
teachers- Mm-hmm ... uh, that we have [00:07:00] right now.
Darrell Gwaltney: Yes, and that's been... Uh, I, I have written him and complimented him- Mm-hmm ... and said, "Keep this up." Mm-hmm. Because this is really wonderful for people like me and for anybody else. And, and so the opportunity, so this is one subject matter, it's Greek. Uh, and, and I'm probably a year away, uh, from getting back to my previous skills, but it's taken me two years already.
That's right, yeah. You know? And, and it's about that practice of working, the discipline of reading. Mm-hmm. So whatever it is, I think when you move from one level of education where you got somebody telling you what you have to do- Mm-hmm ... you have to create the discipline of doing that. And I think your earlier question, though, was a- about the pastorate.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrell Gwaltney: Um, the, I've never known a pastor who woke up... In my pastoring days, this was true. And I never talked to anybody that was this way. I've never known a pastor to wake up in the morning to say, [00:08:00] "What am I gonna do with myself today?" I have no idea what is, what's required of me today. I, I just don't, I just, I just have so much free time.
Yeah. So, uh, I, uh, I think that sense of what a pastor needs to do is to be honest about w- what, where do I need to learn? Mm-hmm Where do I not feel fully equipped? Mm-hmm. And then to begin a process of trying to be better equipped. Right.
Mike Glenn: Now, I, I think you bring up a couple of good points. One, um, you do have to choose.
Right. You don't have time to learn everything or to do everything that you're not r- uh, fully equipped for. Right. For you, it was the Greek. Right. Uh, for me, I'm going back and reading all the systematic theology. Right. Yeah, Swinburne and, and some of those guys, uh, that I did not appreciate when I was in seminary.
Well, and
Darrell Gwaltney: I'll say, I'm not just reading Greek- Yeah, yeah ... 'cause I'm also doing other things. Sure. And that's the thing is that you go back and you look at, I need to, [00:09:00] I need to... I'm, I'm trying to learn Spanish- ... 'cause I have Spanish folks in my family now, and I, and I, and I do a pastor training school in Honduras.
Right. I don't know how to speak in Spanish. So I'm, I'm working on that. Mm-hmm. I've been trying to read more theology, so. And, and you've got the, uh, the, the, the preaching. Right. Yeah, I try to read the pre- The National Conference of Preachers. Yeah, so I have, I have a thing I, I have something to do with young preachers, and I have something to do with Nashville preachers, and so I'm always reading and preaching and trying- Mm-hmm
to understand, you know, where preaching is today in this saturated world- Mm-hmm ... uh, of social media that people have. I think that, um, you know, we were talking a moment ago about, uh, that kind of discipline of it. I, I, I teach at Belmont and, and I learn a lot from my students. And one of, one of the things that I hear students talk about doing is doom scrolling.
And I, I said, "Well, what is, [00:10:00] what is doom scrolling?" You know? And they talk about it. Like all... You know. I heard another term this week about situationship, which is a situationship is some sort of a relationship that somebody has that's not a real relationship. It's based upon a situation. And, and which, okay, this is new.
But, but the doom scrolling thing is, is what people do when, uh, they've got some time on their hand and they got their iPad in their hand- Mm-hmm ... or their phone in their hand. Right. And they, and they get on the YouTube or Instagram, whatever, and they just- Just get lost ... an hour- Yeah ... or an hour and a half of just looking at one little 30-second video after another.
And we all do that. We cannot do that. What if that discipline, what if we take that hour and a half- The same, the same time ... the same time that we already have literally in our hands, that same time, and read. [00:11:00] Pick sw- You're right. Yeah ... pick that theologian you want to read or that book on preaching- Mm-hmm
and say, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read this," or maybe to watch a video lecture- Right ... on theology or a video lecture on Greek All which are readily available Yeah. I'll just...
Mike Glenn: E- even the same software, same app It's like, yeah, same device And you, yes, you just gotta, you just gotta tell- Doesn't take any more
Darrell Gwaltney: effort And maybe it takes less effort because you're not going like this for an hour, so yeah.
All right. If you were,
Mike Glenn: uh, uh, in a local pastorate where you gotta preach every Sunday and teach Wednesday, how would you schedule in lifetime learning?
Darrell Gwaltney: That's a really good question. Um, I think pastors develop their own work routines- Mm-hmm ... like what's effective for them. Mm-hmm. Uh, [00:12:00] I, when I'm preaching regularly, uh, I...
Nowadays, when I do interim work, it's in addition to other work that I have- Mm-hmm ... so I, I try to schedule it in some point in the day. But I, I prefer mornings and, uh, and so sort of my flow of sermon preparation tends to be, you know, once I have a text that I'm working with is I work in the text- Mm-hmm
quite a bit. And, and I do translation work or commentary work with the text. Uh, and then I get to... And I have all these notes, and I get to the point where I'm gonna say, what does it, what does it say? Mm-hmm. And, and it's at that point when I'm thinking, what does it say, that I often realize what I don't know.
Right. And, and that, that moment where I'm like I don't really know how to communicate this, or I don't know what it might mean to this group of people, and I imagine my [00:13:00] congregation out there and how they might hear this differently.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrell Gwaltney: And so that b- bit about, like, what, what I don't know often is what tends me to find, tends to lead me- Right
to find more information.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. I found out that as I, as I was working on a sermon, when I'd get to that moment of application- Okay ... right, this is what Jesus said about anger. Mm-hmm. And then that would open up A, a journey toward all of the work out there- ... about anger and, and mental health and- Right. And so,
Darrell Gwaltney: and so as the case is- Right
and I'm sure this was true with you, um, uh, I just talked about, like, one week there. But, uh, but as the case really is, most of us, before we get to there, we have a sermon series. Right. We have it planned out. We might, like in my case, when I was pastoring full time, I tended to have my sermon series planned out f- fairly clearly for 18 months.
Mm-hmm. So it would be a full 18-month cycle. Mm-hmm. Which I would change if- Right ... if things changed, and I would tweak it a little bit or if I felt the [00:14:00] Spirit leading me to that. But that 18-month cycle, and I knew the parts of the text I was gonna be in, and I knew, uh, big subject matter. Yeah. Then I, then I would say, "Okay, if I'm gonna be preaching," like you mentioned, anger.
If, if, if six months from now I'm gonna be working on, uh, trying to talk about anger, I need to, I need to learn about anger. Right. And so then what I would be doing in my regular week while I'm working on my regular sermon, I would set aside some time to be reading in a subject matter that I knew I might not need to speak to it for three months.
Mm-hmm. But I'm beginning to read in that. Right. And then with the opportunities we have today, when I, when I have a book that I'm reading on my iPad or an actual physical book in my hand, and I, I notice something, and maybe the author refers to something else, then I will chase that rabbit.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Darrell Gwaltney: And it might, it might then lead me to get up on, on my computer [00:15:00] and start doing some research and websites to learn more about it.
Yeah, and
Mike Glenn: the key there is I'm doing it weeks out from the sermon. Right. I don't have the pressure of I, I need to find- Right ... something for tomorrow.
Darrell Gwaltney: Right. Yeah, and so that's the discipline of it. Right. The discipline of it is planning ahead so you can read ahead, and you don't find yourself at 11:00 on Saturday night trying to finish that message up and trying to find that one really cute anecdote- Yeah.
or clever little story- To get, to get it rolling ... that like fits that in. Right, yeah. Because if you read ahead, you find those things.
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah. If you got your sermons planned out, the illustrations will fall- Mm-hmm ... fall into your lap. And what
Darrell Gwaltney: also happens is that when you plan ahead and you read ahead- It tunes your ears ahead.
And so if you're... It's really fascinating to me about how if you're reading ahead and you're working on something else, but if you're reading ahead in the way your subconscious works, somebody- you'll hear somebody say something somewhere. Mm-hmm. Or you'll be watching something on TV- Mm-hmm ... and it's like, "Oh, wait a [00:16:00] minute, I gotta write that down."
Yeah. That I might be able to use that three months from now. That's right. Right. That's a great line. Yeah. And so, uh, I do that a lot. I, I'll actually pull my phone out and I go to the notes thing and I'll type in, like, uh, this movie, uh, ch- check, check this quote. Well, you know, the old
Mike Glenn: preachers used to tell you all the time, carry around a notepad or a notebook.
Yeah, this is on your notepad. And, and, and then so- It's, it's... Yeah ... so you could write it down. Mm-hmm. Now the phone does it. Yeah.
Darrell Gwaltney: And so I- it's just that kinda lifelong learning piece is about, uh, continuing to discipline your mind to be thoughtful about the things you hope to- Mm-hmm ... say. And, um, if you're, you know, you preach every week, boy, you're in a conversation that's weekly, monthly.
Mm-hmm. And, and so- And don't
Mike Glenn: discount how much you're communicating and how that builds up, how that stores up over the weeks- Mm-hmm ... and months
Darrell Gwaltney: and years. Right. Because I think the, the, the really important thing to imagine is, is that, uh, when I, when I teach preaching to my [00:17:00] students, I, I tell them that the word for preaching homiletics comes from the Greek word which means conversation.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. And
Darrell Gwaltney: so it's really important for us to remember that when we're preaching, we're in conversation- Mm-hmm ... with the folks with us. Now, they're not talking back to us. Sometimes they'll say amen. But it's not a conversation like this. Or yawn, or yawn loudly. But, but what we want to keep in mind, though, is that in the same way that we've been thinking about this sermon and praying over it and listening to our heart and the, and spirit, and we've been reading ahead and looking and listening, and we've been doing all of that till we've come to a point we can share with people.
It's important to remember that the folks with whom we are having that conversation are sp- are doing the same thing- Same thing ... every
Mike Glenn: week. That's right.
Darrell Gwaltney: They're watching the news. Mm-hmm. They're reading things online. They're talking to their friends. They're reading books. And so if we're thoughtful of that larger conversation, and that's why it's really important for [00:18:00] us, we use the illustration of anger.
Mm-hmm. It's really important for us if we're doing a s- a series on anger w- and we recognize there's something going on in our culture That's not explicitly about anger, but it's a byproduct of anger. Right. Then we need to equip ourselves about that too, because that's the thing- That our people are giving-
that our congregation are listening to.
Mike Glenn: Brilliant. Yeah. Right.
Darrell Gwaltney: And, and so we wanna, we wanna, we wanna enter into that conversation with them informed by our learning about anger-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Darrell Gwaltney: so we can interpret that for them in the light of the biblical text. Mm-hmm. That, for me, is the thing- Yeah ... that's really exciting about preaching- Yeah
to do that. And if you're waiting till Saturday night to do that- Oh, you can't do that ... you don't do it very well. Impossible.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, we'll have to c- bring you back, hear what you're learning on, on preaching. Lifelong learner, what books should every pastor
Darrell Gwaltney: read? Oh, my. I, I think rather than, [00:19:00] like, say, specific books, what I try to do is suggest kinds of books to read.
Okay? So, uh, I, I think, uh, preaching, I think every, every pastor should be finding a book about preaching-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Darrell Gwaltney: and to read regularly. And e- back to the thing I mentioned before, like, about being disciplined in reading and, and being curious- Mm-hmm ... about reading, I think also you need to, you need to read with humility- Mm-hmm
and read somebody that y- you may not agree with them. So I think that extends to books on preaching.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Darrell Gwaltney: Um, uh, r- read, read what people are saying about preaching. Uh, I, I have found it really, really instructive to read biographies, uh, and, uh, historical biographies. Right. Uh, as an example, just, uh, uh, week before last, I finished a, a book...
A- and none of these are, like, books I'm an endorsement, so to speak, but, uh, like, it's- Mm-hmm ... a, a impactful book for me. I read a book by a guy named, I think, Derek Larson, named Demon of Unrest, [00:20:00] and it was about the m- the, like, six months leading up from the election of Abraham Lincoln to- To the firing on Fort Sumter
to the firing on Fort Sumter. Mm-hmm. Okay? And, uh, it was absolutely fascinating, and it felt like I was reading today's news. Yeah. Because the parallels between what was happening in our country in 1860s, be- before the start of Civil War, uh, and, and the firing on Fort Sumter, sounded like the communication, the, the p- the political conflict- Mm
you know, was so similar. So I think reading historical books, I think reading biographies, give us insight into the human condition. '
Mike Glenn: Cause we haven't changed. No, we haven't changed. Pe- people haven't changed.
Darrell Gwaltney: Not at all. I like to read books as well on what we might call behavioral economics, which is why people make the decisions they make.
Right. We like to think that people make decisions because they're informed. Current studies are showing that's not, not- ... necessarily true. [00:21:00] Um, uh, I read, I read a really, uh, a s- scary book, um- A year ago called the, I think it's called The Chaos Machine
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Darrell Gwaltney: Uh, and it's about how social media works- Oh, that, that- Google and Facebook Yeah, any,
Mike Glenn: any of the reading you do on social media will- Yeah,
Darrell Gwaltney: and so- Sober you up pretty quick And I've just recently bought a book that should come tomorrow, actually, thanks to the folks that deliver books to our doorstep, uh, on artificial intelligence Mm-hmm Uh, and it's written by Eric Schmidt, who founded Google- Mm-hmm Uh, and an MIT scientist, and, uh, I forget the other guy at the moment.
But I mean, 'cause I, I want to... Everybody's talking about AI. Yeah I need to understand AI better. So I think that the books that pastors should be reading are books that are gonna inform the, their understanding of the world that they live in and, [00:22:00] and has come before. Mm-hmm Uh, inform their opinion about significant leaders and how they made those decisions.
Um, but I think also books that, uh, talk about the, the world they live in. And, you know, um, there's lots of books that... And, and, and websites and blogs- Mm-hmm ... that will give you some insight into different things like behavioral economics and economics. Mm. I think understanding economics, um, politics is scary these days, uh, but I think it's good for us to read in that well, realm as well.
And so I think that's what I would say. I mean, I think that, um, there, uh, there are a lot of books out there, and, um, a book that appeals to me may be a reflection of where I am in my lifelong learning-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Darrell Gwaltney: and what I'm trying to address. And so what I encourage people- And what you're dealing with in the moment that- [00:23:00] Yeah, yeah
we, we may not know about- Yeah ... you
Mike Glenn: know
Darrell Gwaltney: And, and so, I mean, there are things that I, I, I... So I, example, I read a book, one of the best books that I read, I've read in, read in this last year, it's about the Apple II computer And this computer professor, history of computers professor in University of Chicago wrote this book about how the Apple II computer changed the world and software involved.
Now, many of your listeners won't care about that at all, but it was like reading my life history- Yeah ... because I went to college to do computer science. We remember. That's when Apple II- Yeah ... and it was like I was reading this book and, and it was like, "I remember that. That's exactly- Yeah ... how I felt." And I was able to recognize that that book really informed who...
It helped me to understand who I am today because it was explaining a formative piece of my own personal history. Yeah. [00:24:00] Now, a lot of folks don't care about that. No. But that's the reason I say I think the books that we find can be really selective based upon where we are in our life journey. But the reading is important.
Mike Glenn: So much good stuff. Uh, let's see if we can't recap. One, I hate to tell you this, but you're gonna be a lifelong learner. Yes. Uh, you will be engaged in some kind of learning out of your own curiosity, out of what your church needs, out of what you're going through personally. Uh, we live in a time where we have extraordinary resources available to us, uh, through the web, through publishing, on and on the list goes.
You can find, uh, insights from experts from all over the world. Uh, but I think a couple of things that Darrell said are key. One, stay curious. If there's a, a question you have, if there's something you wanna know more about, go ahead and feel the freedom to chase that rabbit and, uh, and, and just go all the way down that rabbit hole, knowing that as you go on that journey, you're gonna find [00:25:00] other things that pique your interest and that inform you.
Uh, stay humble. N- know that we don't know, uh, everything there is to know and never will. I mean, there's, uh, there's that old saying that we learn in the history books that there was a time for a renaissance man that, and during that time, that, uh, one guy could literally know everything there was to know.
That is certainly not our case anymore, so stay humble. Uh, and the last thing is stay patient. Uh, y- you're not going to achieve all that you want to achieve overnight. You, you heard Darrell talk about relearning his Greek skills and how that's now what? A three-year journey-
Darrell Gwaltney: Yeah, at least. Yeah ... uh,
Mike Glenn: that, that you're on, and that will continue.
So stay patient. But listen, God has an incredible world, uh, where He reveals Himself in all kind of ways, and He wants you to be part of that, and that includes and happens through being a lifelong learner. I'm grateful for Darrell [00:26:00] Gwaltney being here. I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engaged Church Network, so thanks for joining us.
Thank
you.
