Ministry Beyond the Church Walls | Scott Harris
Scott Harris joins Mike Glenn for a conversation about why the mission of the Church cannot be confined to a building. Drawing from decades of ministry leadership and his work with Mission Increase, Scott shares why churches must learn to release people into ministry beyond the four walls and recognize that Kingdom work often happens in businesses, nonprofits, and communities around the world. As a missionary kid who grew up partly in Barbados and later served 18 years as Missions Minister at Brentwood Baptist Church, Scott brings a global perspective on leadership, soul care, and the importance of building strong partnerships between churches and mission-driven organizations. Together, Mike and Scott explore how leaders can develop the next generation, steward influence wisely, and help the Church move from gathering crowds to sending people into meaningful Kingdom impact.
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[00:00:00] Well, hello, Scott Harris. Hello. Welcome. Welcome to our podcast. Just grateful that you have given us some time today. So, Scott, you've recently joined the team at First Baptist Nashville. Yes. And our friend, uh, Thomas West. Yes. Is there, so what is your official title? Yes. So Mike, I am pastor of Discipleship administration that includes missions.
And let me just tell you a quick word about First Baptist. What excites me is not only its amazing history and where it's located. You and I have always had a passion to pour into the next generation. At Brentwood Baptist we went from three missionary units on the field to over 40.
And a lot of that is equipping the next generation. But what's unique about First Baptist Nashville, if I have anything to offer it's not only the church, but it's as if God tapping on the shoulder and said, Hey Scott, I want you to go help that guy. Ah, so [00:01:00] it's, yes, it's the church, but about Thomas and his leadership, his wisdom at his relatively young age, he just turned 40 and uh, I'm not as old as you.
I remember 40. I remember, but I vaguely remember 40. Yeah. It's like, Hey, I wanna. Pour in whatever I got to the next generation. It's always twos. Yes, always twos. And it's been a great companionship. One of us was probably older than Paul. Yeah. So that's been a really fun dynamic. It's been good. Good. And you've always modeled that well, and I always admired that about you.
You would. Make sure that you were around folks who, you know, were of a different generation and, uh, so maybe I'm doing that in my own little way for however little time I got was very excited that he decided to bring you on staff. Yes. With your passion. Thanks for your good word. And vision and, um, for what a church can do in its community.
Yes. And that kind of stuff. Now the first [00:02:00] obvious question is you were in local church ministry. Yes. You left local church ministry to work with mission increase. Yes. Yes. And now you're back in local, local church ministry. Who knew? Well, now it's your fault. That's right. You know. No, I was gonna say, it's all your fault.
We can't blame anybody. It's all your fault. You knew now going into That's right. That's right. What was intriguing about First Baptist? Okay. Okay. Well first, a little bit of background. So you know, Mike, you and I, we, I had the honor of working for you with you for 18 years. Mm-hmm. Learned so much. We had a lot of fun, a lot of good things happen.
It was hard work, but it was just fantastic. And uh, and so that set me up for what I was able to do at Mission Increase, which then of course led to First Baptist Nashville. And so I just wanna say you and Brentwood are a very important part of this story. So through mutual friends. Said, Hey, there's a new guy coming to First Baptist Nashville.
Mm-hmm. You need to meet him. And they said the same thing to [00:03:00] him. Bill Wilson, Jr. Mm-hmm. Dear friend, Jay Wolf. Right, right. Former pastor of First Baptist Montgomery, who is Thomas West's pastor growing up. And so, yeah. And still Jay is still his mentor? Oh, yeah. Very much so. And so after Thomas had been here a few weeks, Thomas and I met for lunch.
And we just started getting into a rhythm of meeting about once a month. Mm-hmm. And, uh, man, I was just so impressed with his story, had always admired First Baptist from a distance. Sure. You know, we're about, what, 15 miles away? Mm-hmm. And knew people there and knew some of its history and all of that.
And, uh, so as Thomas and I got to know each other, and this idea started to emerge of, hey what if. There was a place for me at First Baptist Nashville. I went through a checklist, and you correct me if I'm wrong, Mike. Tell me how many churches, so there are 47,000 Southern Baptist churches. Mm-hmm. Uh, which is about 12% of all churches in North America, right?
Mm-hmm. [00:04:00] Little under 400,000 congregations. Tell me how many churches would fit all of the following criteria. A church that has chosen to stay downtown, mm-hmm. Is biblically faithful, is dreaming and growing again. After a long period of some would say decline, stagnation, or stagnation. Mm-hmm. Um, has a new pastor.
Who's young and energetic, and it's not just in some obscure corner of downtown, but, but it's not, it's not that he's, he's young and, and energetic. But he came from the mission field. That's right. He was pastor. He planted a church in what? Just outside London. In London. In London.
In London. In London. And uh, and then came from there to here. So he still brings Oh, absolutely. That mission heart for the urban core and all of that. And has experience in doing so. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and again, first Baptist Nashville is not [00:05:00] in some obscure corner of downtown. No, it is Right in the heart of downtown.
And, uh, and so you put all that together. What an opportunity, not to mention the thousands of people who now live downtown. That's right. That's, that is a recent Oh yeah. Uh, phenomenon. In fact. As I understand it, Mike, 24 years ago when I moved to Nashville and we got to know each other there were fewer than 2000 people who lived downtown.
And now it's 22,000. Mm-hmm. With a projection of 35 to 40,000 mm. In the next 10 years within a rocks throw of first Nashville. In fact, I meet people every Sunday who walk to church. Mm-hmm. And it's even fun for us. We go out to lunch after church, and we walk to lunch. Mm-hmm. And, uh. So that's a new dynamic.
So I, what's new for me in all of this, I've never been part of a downtown church before. I've never been a part of a turnaround story. Mm-hmm. So that's new, but so much I think of what [00:06:00] we did at Brentwood over those years. Is transferrable, right? Sure. Because principals transfer. So it's, it's a new environment for me, but it's not just Thomas, it's, it's the people, those heroes mm-hmm.
That have stuck with it. And have stayed with it and kept those embers alive and, and could see it. And there's this sense of, Hey, something's happening here. And it is ex, I didn't know if I had another church left in me, but thanks to you and others, it's like, whoa, maybe there's something here. You know?
60 is the new 40. That's it. That's, that's, that's what I'm going with anyway. That's it. And I love my time at Mission Increase. In fact, I mean, that's a story, you know, that, uh. It was at Brentwood Baptist. Mm-hmm. That thanks to you and your leadership. We needed good, healthy nonprofit partners right where we could send our people.
We saw the nonprofit as a partner, not a parasite. And so we then soon [00:07:00] discovered nonprofits are just like people in churches. Some are healthier than others, so who helps the nonprofit do better work? Mm-hmm. That led to mission increase, which we brought here to Middle Tennessee. Now, tell me about the process of discovering mission increase.
Yes. Yes. Let me start with, okay. Because Okay. Let's, let's, okay, let's set the foundation Yes. Of the discussion that you and I were having. Yes. We were moving to a place where we wanted to run members off. That's right. We wanted every member to know who they were in Christ. Understand their giftedness and their passion, and then release them to ministry.
That's it. That's it. We quickly realized we cannot have enough ministries in the church to accommodate all of this g, all these gifts, nor do we need to constantly reinvent a wheel. That's right. Uh, for instance, there was the, uh, HOPE Clinic. Yeah. And, and others that they were already doing right to life and pro-life ministries.
We didn't need to duplicate that. We just needed to send our people to others. Absolutely. I talked the other day [00:08:00] with Darryl Murray of, uh, welcome home Ministry. Welcome home ministry, same kind of thing. Homeless and That's right guys outta prison to transition that Darrel is a master at. Oh, absolutely.
So there's no need for us to reinvent their wheel. That's right. That's right. So we started partnering with, uh, identifying these nonprofits that we could say to our people. Go here. That's it. If this is your passion That's right. Go here. Yeah. But Mike, let's back up a moment because during those years we had a lot of new people coming to Brentwood Baptist.
Mm-hmm. And thanks to you and Jim Bakker and others, there was this decision that we were gonna have Jim Bakker, our executive executive pastor there at the time he was there, oh four to 14 mm-hmm. 10 year period, and brought so much infrastructure and structure to what we did. And, uh. So we required a membership class, right?
Part of the membership requirements was place. Mm-hmm. Basically an inventory of your spiritual gifts, your abilities, your passions, your experiences, [00:09:00] and here's what you did. You had identified to say. We're good as a church, whether you as a church member, serve inside the four walls of the church. Mm-hmm.
Or outside the four. Mm-hmm. It either is a win for the kingdom. Mm-hmm. So when you had all these new members coming through and whenever they marked an interest in anything outside the four walls of the church, it was sent to me. So I was connecting with literally a couple hundred people a year.
Mm-hmm. Who had a heart. For something in the missions area. That's right. So we needed those nonprofit partners where we could send people to. Mm-hmm. But there's nothing worse than telling someone go volunteer at Ministry x uhhuh. And they come back and they say. They weren't ready for me. They didn't know how to use me. They had no plan. Yeah. They had no vision. Poorly run. We don't give them any money, do we? So we had a vested interest to make sure that exactly right. Those ministries had a sharp ecclesiology. Mm-hmm. Who understood the value of [00:10:00] the local church, not just as a place for money and volunteers.
Mm-hmm. But saw themselves as a discipleship platform for God's people. Right. And so as we developed this network of partners, because we had people to invest. Mm-hmm. We also had mission dollars to invest and we needed something to make sure that these ministries were getting the training and the equipping they needed.
So I went looking, who helps the faith-based nonprofit do better work? Mm-hmm. We're here in Nashville. LifeWay's right around the corner. Lifeway is a resource to help congregations thrive. Local church focus. Mm-hmm. So what's the lifeway equivalent for the faith-based nonprofit. And I was struck Mike by how little there was out there.
Right. And heard of this organization called Mission Increase. We saw the model, we believed in it, and thanks to you and others, and a key church member. Who was an executive who loved nonprofits, but would sometimes get [00:11:00] frustrated when he would serve on a nonprofit board board that, that they didn't have with the tools in the toolbox.
So he and we together brought mission increase to Middle Tennessee. Mm-hmm. And that was 10 plus years ago. Okay. Alright. Now explain to our, our listeners what mission increase is. Yes. So it is an organization. That helps faith-based organizations thrive. Origin story, this godly Christian couple in Portland, Oregon, they tell the story that every December 31st, they would write a check to the local rescue mission with their fingers crossed.
Mm-hmm. Praying it would stay open one more year. They thought, what if we didn't only give money? What if we invested our money in developing training for these nonprofits, right? As the nonprofits grew, we would track their progress, so our investment could be measured in the ROI mm-hmm. Of key growth indicators for these ministries.
Mm-hmm. 26 years later, they're in 27 cities. They have 3,500 faith-based nonprofits that [00:12:00] have coaching accounts. Wow. And we measure impact based on how these ministries grow, how to have a healthy board. How to raise money in a biblically non-manipulative way. How to make a case for support. All of those key tools that any nonprofit needs.
And, uh, it was great. So I was with them for five years, still doing some work with them and, uh, but then. Thought, wow. Still here in Nashville. Here's a great church with a great past. Mm-hmm. A promising future. Hey, this could be really a lot of fun. Yeah. Gimme one more. Okay. What did you learn from Mission Increase that you didn't learn at Brentwood?
Yeah. That you will now take into First Baptist? Yeah. Okay. Great question. A few things. One, or maybe some things that were further confirmed. Okay. Or refined. Faith based on profits. Not all I. But so many [00:13:00] tend to be thin on their ecclesiology, right? Yeah. My joke is parachurch is always para and rarely church.
That's it. So as true as that is. Fair enough. So how do we help them? Mm-hmm. With a sharper, deeper ecclesiology. And so mission increase provided us a platform to imbue faith-based nonprofits with, Hey, we know you're not a congregation. But you are part of the Big C Church. Mm-hmm. What's your place in the Big C Church?
How to relate to congregations in a healthy way. So that was a platform to experiment and to figure out how do we help faith-based nonprofits not only meet the needs that are out there, hunger or mm-hmm. Or all sorts of issues, but how do we. Help them do it in such a way that sees that they're a part of the Big C Church and they have a [00:14:00] responsibility to serve local churches, and they're hungry for that.
Mm-hmm. But they're like, well, who? No. No one's ever taught us right's. Right? Nobody's ever helped us, so let's do that. Let's help them. And that started at Brentwood Baptist when. We saw that these nonprofits are doing great work and we love them. They're heroes to us. Many of them are members of our church.
Mm-hmm. Like a Daryl Murray. So let's encourage them. Let's help them. But they're also burning out because they're absolutely, they're doing it all of their own passion, own energy. That's it. They don't know how to work structure. That's it. They don't know how to enlist and That's right. Pull a team together.
That's it. Uh, so we say a lot of heartbeat. Let's give 'em some brainwaves. Now, church leaders need that too. We all need that, right? Yeah. I gotcha. And there are some people with a lot of brainwaves that need some heartbeat too, right? Mm-hmm. But there are not a lot of learning communities, right? For faith-based nonprofits.
And so that was an incredible opportunity for me to hone [00:15:00] some of those skills or some of the things that I suspected but wasn't sure. And, uh, and something else about. The nonprofit world that I learned was that. God's people often get caught in the middle between the tug of war, between their church obligations, right?
Mm-hmm. And their nonprofit obligations. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of marketplace leaders look at their church and the nonprofits they love and they say, why can't these two structures get along? Right? Something else I learned. Pastors, not all, but most, a lot, I should say. A lot of pastors and nonprofit leaders agree on an erroneous assumption.
Sometimes pastors will say, if we were doing our job as the church, we would not need the nonprofit. And nonprofit leaders sometimes say, well, you know, if the, uh, church were doing its job, I wouldn't have to do [00:16:00] this. And I say, you're both wrong. You're both part of the big C church. That's right.
God has given us the, the kingdom work. Right. Kingdom. So we have two structures. Mm-hmm. The missional structure and the congregational structure. And I would say the congregational structure has priority, but by God's design, re meant to serve each other. Mm-hmm. So there we're gifts to each other, not competitors.
The nonprofit pastor is not a problem to be managed. But an asset to be maximized. Right. One of the things that, uh, we have done in the evangelical church is we have taken obedience out of discipleship. That is, when I say deci, I want you to be involved in discipleship. Scott, you understand? I want you to attend the class.
Knowledge acquisition. Knowledge acquisition. I want you to major on trivia about Jesus and the spiritual people in our church are those who can answer those. You know, questions, those bible trivia questions, [00:17:00] all the Bible trivia questions. Right. But what happens is, what we forget is that because we are children of the father and the father is on mission to redeem the world, he invites us to become part of that work.
Come join me. It is the same way that when we were little boys and our dad said, come help me. That's right. Do this. That's important to the family. It's the same honor. But there are a lot of things that we learn only in obedience. Only in the doing. That's right. Now we always make fun of, of uh, of our friend John Thomas, who, uh, led the ministry in, uh, in
South Africa. Yeah. Because some of the crazy things that he jumped into buying land without the permission of the church and all, all of these that I don't recommend. That's right, that's right. For those, you know, but he has all of these stories. Of, of, of God's faithfulness because he was in the trenches doing his best to be [00:18:00] obedient to this vision that God had given him.
And I would say in the community trenches. Not just the church trench. No, but in the community trench. He was in Malac. That's right. Okay. Which was right across the street. But there are some things you only learn in the doing, which then drives worship. Yeah. Because everybody comes back off a mission trip, can't wait to get to church to tell everybody what's happened.
That's right. And it, you know, one of the hard things to, to tell people is the God you met in South Africa, still here. Puerto Rico and Mexico. Yeah. He's God here too. That's right. Yeah, that's right. So because we've cut off the obedience, we rob people. A lot of the, the passion That's right.
And the hands on. The hands on and seeing God work That's right. Day to day. And that's part of God's beautiful design. So not that a local congregation can't find lots of ways to impact their community mm-hmm. Directly the close closet, the soup kitchen. Sure. Mo mobilizing people to share their faith in [00:19:00] their marketplace.
Mm-hmm. In their workplace, in their home place, in their neighborhood. But the, but by God's design, the nonprofit gives God's people access to lost people, to community in need. Mm-hmm. Who actually are open to receiving some help mm-hmm. From Christians. Mm-hmm. So someone who may not go to your church, but they will be at the food bank.
So shouldn't we show up at the food bank and live out our faith because we have access to, to lost people. That's right. And so. Again, we're gifts to one another. So we don't see the nonprofit as, you know, parachurch as parasite. Mm-hmm. Is what a lot of church people think. Uh, and then a lot of nonprofit leaders, they're like, you know, I love my congregation.
I love my church. Mm-hmm. I was sitting, listening to a sermon and was inspired with this idea mm-hmm. To go make a difference in my world. But now, but how do I do that? But how do I do that and or the church doesn't care [00:20:00] about what I'm doing. Mm-hmm. And they just want me to usher on Sunday. Is, but I got more to give, which is a double whammy because if you inspire but don't give direction or connection to actually do what they're inspire to do, then they become calloused.
That's it. And the next time you wanna motivate 'em. Nah, I'm not, that's, I'm not gonna get all excited about this's. That's right. If there's no way to do what you're calling me to do. And so here's what, here's something that we were able to do at Brentwood that many times people would say thank you.
One thing we did a couple of times a year as a mission staff, we did an inventory who in our membership, our serving on local nonprofit boards. And who would be some people in our church that have some gifts mm-hmm. That they could give to local nonprofits. That's how we as a church, increased our leverage and influence, right.
In the community. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so we would often go to church members and we would say, this doesn't mean we still don't [00:21:00] want you to serve in the nursery, we still want you to give generously to your local church. But there's an afterschool program. Not far from where you live, that could really use some of your skill sets, right?
And so that was us as a congregation being generous. With one another. Mm-hmm. And that then helped many nonprofits who maybe were a little jaded or calloused about working with churches Yeah. To say, Hey, Brentwoods different. Mm-hmm. They love us, they serve us. They pray for us. And so it's a win-win for everybody.
Every, everybody wins. Everybody wins. Everybody wins. There's enough to go around. Yeah. What'd you learn about money? Yes. Well, I'll tell you this. God's not puzzled by money. He gets it. Money is God's idea. Yeah. Yeah. You said something that I, that stuck with me, that money is energy. Yeah. It's always is.
Right. It's energy and so it's a tool. Mm-hmm. [00:22:00] And uh, and you know, we tell people it's more blessed to give than receive, but do we really believe it? And when we as a church, we're able to model. That Congregationally, the more money we gave corporately right outside the four walls of the church. God more than compensated, right? Yeah. We were never short on what we wanted to do. Never short. So, so the idea here is, is that not only do we want individuals to be generous. Congregations. Can and should and need to be generous because that's one of the best ways to inspire your people to be generous.
Right. To model it when they say the church. Mm-hmm. So, back to Living Hope. We had a building program and uh, the first million dollars of the building program went to our partners, went to Living Hope. Mm-hmm. Everybody won in that. Equation. There was no loss. It was all win. It was all gain. So learned over and [00:23:00] over and over again.
God has it and he wants to give more of it to us. And that's not prosperity gospel. Mm-hmm. But our own generosity can fuel kingdom work. Mm-hmm. And it's a lot of fun. Yeah. You know, when you start working walking with God, uh, one of the first things you, you learn is, I thought I needed all these things in my life to bless me.
Yeah. And you're confronted on the, the not so subtle idolatry of stuff. That's right. I, I need this car because it affirms who I am as a man. I, I need this house. We don't need any of that. Mm-hmm. The affirmation comes from the cross and after that, there's nothing that can be added. And, and when the cross really gets ahold of us.
Then what we want and desire is not exactly not to get, it's to give. That's right. And, you know, and, but this is such a message for both individual Christians, but also for churches. One of the things that [00:24:00] First Baptist, Nashville. That we've adopted is we wanna be a radically generous church. Mm-hmm.
And what does that mean exactly? And it can mean a lot of things. Yes. Finances, but also with our facility given right where we are downtown, right? And all these other things. So the best way to inspire our members to live radically generous lives is corporately for them to see it. Let's figure out what it means.
Yeah. And John Thomas, our, our friend in South Africa, a story that I love now there's a dark side to generosity, but when they were so burdened at the time, 20 plus years ago of the AIDS crisis, right. Ravaging their community. Mm-hmm. They made some big commitments and they actually deferred some maintenance.
On their own building. Well, if you sit in the sanctuary, you can see where the construction stopped. That's it. You literally look up the wall. That's it. And that's where it stopped. Now, some people that irritated them to no end. This is [00:25:00] God's house, right? How dare we? Mm-hmm. Not finish. In John's mind, what a great reminder.
It's good enough. So Mark chapter two, the hole in the roof. Right. These four guys who brought their sick friend to Jesus, they finally got him to where Jesus was. They couldn't get him to Jesus. So what did they do? They climbed the roof, they tear the roof open, and uh, you know, um, someone had to pay for that roof.
Ministry is not cheap, but I love the fact that our friends in South Africa as a congregation, they left the proverbial hole in the roof. Mm-hmm. As a reminder we're God's house of, of the true calling. Yeah. The true calling. Yeah. I love that. And it's a powerful moment when you sit there in that congregation, and I'll tell you this, Mike, I know pastors and churches all around our world are trying to figure out.
How do we live and move and grow in what seems to feel like a harsher world? And, uh, maybe you need a new sound [00:26:00] system. Maybe it's a reef paved parking lot or maybe it's radical generosity. Mm-hmm. And I'm convinced that there's a connection between the generosity of a congregation and the church's health.
Mm-hmm. A lot of pastors aren't interested in that. If they talk about generosity, it's how do we get members to give. Their church more money. And I would say that's critical, but that's not enough. Mm-hmm. So that we as a congregation can be generous, can free it up. So I think that's just a, mm-hmm.
A wonderful opportunity for pastors and churches to be like, Hey, listen, if we want to grow and be healthy, we tell our people to give to God first and see how God will bless. Why don't we, as a congregation go ahead and. Fund that Bible translation initiative, right, and see what God does. And we got to do a lot of that kind of stuff at Brentwood.
Yeah. Or establish a [00:27:00] theological center for deaf pastors. Yes. And deaf missionaries. That's it. And see what God does. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. What have you learned? Uh, we we're hearing a lot about the generations the. The builders have left the scene now. Mm. Boomers are all now retiring. Millennials, gen X, gen Y are now coming on, and we're hearing a lot about what's gonna happen in their giving.
What have you learned about the different generations and generosity and giving and, yeah. my sense is God has hardwired people of. Any and every generation to be generous. It may look different from generation to generation. Right. So the responsibility and the opportunity for a congregation is to figure out, okay,
Let's not fight the generational giving trends necessarily, but how do we maximize those? That's right. Generational giving trends. Challenge how we channel it. Yeah. How do we channel it? How do we inspire and uh, and so [00:28:00] what word for prior generations you should give, right? Uh, maybe for. The upcoming generations, it's more of we get to give.
Mm-hmm. And here's what we can give, and here we can, and here's some things to do and here's how we're gonna do it. Yeah. And I tell people that, the newer generations are, you know, we're told they don't give, that's not true. That's not true. They're very generous. And, uh, even at chiros, so many years ago, the midweek worships we would have.
Bring a dollar or whatever. Yes. And we say, here's what we're gonna do with this money. And it was always thousands of dollars. That's right. That was out there. That they would give on the spot. That's right. Because I, if you can tell me now as a younger person that if you give this dollar, this person's life has changed.
They'll give you the share off their back. They really will. They won't give you 15 cents for a light bulb that's right in the sanctuary. So what? What happens a lot is. Often we as church leaders we don't think we [00:29:00] owe them that level of transparency, right? Shouldn't they just trust us? Well, as we know, trust in clergy, they don't trust anybody, man.
They don't trust anybody with good reason, for good reason. So let's figure out how to earn their trust. Yeah, good word. And not resent. That effort. Mm-hmm. But to see it as an opportunity, and that's part of our assignment. Mm-hmm. So be transparent. And you know, I've often heard trust the people, give people the information that they need.
Mm-hmm. Because, you know, we as ministers, if we're not careful, we're people. We can get lazy. Mm-hmm. So our default is just give it. 'cause you're supposed to. That's right. Thank goodness. It makes it easier on everybody. Just give it, thank goodness. Maybe those days are over. So we all get a little sharper.
Mm-hmm. And make sure that our processes are clean and we can show impact. And that grows some really generous disciples. Right. If I see my money's making a difference, then I'm [00:30:00] more en, en encouraged to give. That's right. One of my favorite stories is you sleeping in an apartment? Oh yes. In Hong Kong.
Yes. Where your body is in the bedroom. That's it. And your feet are in the living room. In the living, yeah, that's right. That's, that's, you could flush the toilets with your foot. That, that's it. Alright. True story. True story. You know, my dad was a Southern Baptist pastor in Northern California.
Mm-hmm. When I was seven, we moved to Barbados, returned to California for high school and college and seminary. Took a year out between college and seminary and worked at Spurgeon's College in London. Yes. And it was that year with those British students. That convinced me, yes, I really do need to go to ministry.
So I went to Golden Gate Seminary in Mill Valley, California, became a youth pastor at a Korean church. And what I. When I interviewed, I go, you know, I'm not Korean. They go, we know, but you know English and our kids speak English and not Korean. And it was a beautiful experience. Yeah, that got my gaze, toia.
So when I [00:31:00] graduated from seminary and the Korean church ordained me, I went to Hong Kong and I was there for almost eight years. Doing student ministry and I planted a church and that's where I met Beth, who was born and raised in Taiwan to missionary parents who still speaks fluent China. She's fluent, yeah.
In Mandarin. Served over 30 years in Taiwan. Mainland China. Mm-hmm. And Hong Kong. And, uh, and so as a church planter in Hong Kong we started with six. By the time I left, you know, maybe 180, 190, I don't think we ever quite broke. 200. Yeah, but still that's fabulous. But we had people from 26 countries and we averaged 30 adult baptisms a year in those last four years.
What an opportunity and uh, I just thought all churches did that. But I learned a lot about generosity, right? Every adult in that church [00:32:00] for a season had come to Christ as an adult because someone through some missions organization loved him enough to get out of the walls of their church and go tell 'em about Jesus.
Get his story, so, so that hopefully God used some of that mixed with all the great stuff at Brentwood and First Baptist, Nashville, and man. Let's do some good work together. I hear you. I mean, when, when you and I were first introduced by Bill Wilson, the founding pastor of Brentwood Baptist Church that I followed, he had met you in Hong Kong?
No, no, no, no. Or California. So we, my wife and I. We were church planters in Hong Kong, Uhhuh, and we moved here from Hong Kong to Ashville To go to Vanderbilt. That's right, that's right. You were the Asian student At, I think the only Vanderbilt, the only reason I think I got accepted into Vanderbilt, they saw the Hong Kong postmark.
Yeah. And they thought it was some DEI initiative. It's no, I'm a white guy from Northern [00:33:00] California. Oh, a white guy. Yeah, that's right. Okay. And uh, and you know, when we moved here to Nashville, grew up Southern Baptist, grew up as a missionary kid, um, had always, yeah. But it was Barbados.
Barbados. Hey, people there need Jesus beach ministry. It's a thing. It's a thing, right? So when we moved here, I thought, look, churches are a dime a dozen. Pastors are a dime a dozen. The chances of me getting a job at a church are slim to none. So I thought I'll just get a job at a restaurant. Get the degree at Vanderbilt, we'll go back overseas.
My sun, my junior high Sunday school teacher had moved from California. To Nashville. Remember Ron and Joyce Chandler Oh my word. Yes. And so she had heard through the grapevine we were moving to Nashville. Mm-hmm. She gave my name to some folks at the church, including Bill Reley Wilson. Bill Wilson. And uh, so two weeks after moving here, I'm sitting in your office and, uh, and I start part-time.
Right. We were still [00:34:00] on at our old building 4 0 9 Franklin Road. Mm-hmm. And, um. And yeah. Was there 18 years? So anyway. Yeah. Now you, you, you were not called, you were told. I was told Bill, bill, bill. That's it. Reley told you that's, you'll be working here. Brentwood Baptist. That's it. They told me this is who we're hiring.
That's it. And on a very different scale. Very different scale. You know, you had the privilege of following. A man like Bill Wilson. Oh yeah. And uh, you had the foresight, you had come as Pastor Bill and Creeley had gone to do some other things. You invited Bill back as missions pastor, as the missions, not just Pastor Emeritus, but you gave them a job to do.
And after four years of doing that very well, as they were retiring, I was able to follow Bill. So right. Different occasion. But you and I have in common, we both got to follow Bill Wilson. Yeah. But Bill, bill could get away with murder. He did as, as, as, as the founding pastor. That's right. We got stuff done.
That's it. Just because Bill said [00:35:00] do it. So by the time Bill retired, everybody of course was like, we need, we still need another mission. We've always had admissions pastor, right? Yeah. So I started part-time, couple years later, went full-time and uh, and a good piece of advice I gave, which I. Discovered later was very congruent with how you worked.
Mm-hmm. And it was my dad. I said, dad, where do I start? Mm-hmm. He said, find out who in the membership is already doing great work. And get behind them right now. I did not realize what a God thing that was because that's how you were wired. So one of the reasons I think we built an effective by God's Grace missions ministry is we were able to, I think, capture.
What was important to you? And what was important to you was what has God called our people to do? Right. And how do we get [00:36:00] behind them? So when I just started having a lot of coffees and lunches, finding out what Steve Moore was doing. Yeah. What Darryl Murray was doing. Right. What Betty Steersman was doing, and we could get behind that.
Then. They were a great example to our other people. Hey, look what Betty did. Yeah. Look what Darrell did. Look what Steve did. Mm-hmm. And then we as a church got behind them. So here's something that I think makes Brentwood different and I think what we're gonna be doing at First Baptist, a lot of churches think, okay, the church has the call.
So we can't do everything. We can't go everywhere. So the church has to have a focus. So let's say a church says we're gonna have one international focus. Let's say it's Vietnam. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna have one local focus, and it's the rescue mission. Okay. And what's great about that? It's very efficient, right?
Marshall? Your resources, it's easy to communicate, there's clarity. [00:37:00] Stay in your lane. You can't do everything. Here's the problem with that model alone. What happens when Sally joins the church and she has a heart for Afghanistan? Well, hang on Sally. Mm-hmm. We're a Vietnam church. So could you just lay Afghanistan and join us here in Vietnam?
No. Or let's say Joe joins the church and his heart isn't, the rescue mission wants to work with orphans in Moldova. Right? Well, now, now he's a problem to be managed. That's right. Yeah. Now what we were able to do is to say, wait, we're gonna have our priorities. Mm-hmm. But the biggest priority is respond and equip God's people.
That's right. For what they're called to do. Mm-hmm. So when Sally comes and Afghanistan is her passion, guess what? That's not a distraction for us. No. Part of our job is to help her figure it out. Mm-hmm. Now. The accusation sometimes was, we're in a million different directions. It's like, well, we got a lot of people and God's [00:38:00] creative.
Yeah. God just didn't make one people group. Yeah. Well, you know, everybody's different. So how so? I would say regardless of church size, have your priorities. Yeah. But make sure your number one priority is to equip your people, whether it's through your program mm-hmm. Or whether it's through another platform that you can facilitate that is not spread thin, that is equipping the saints for ministry.
No. Well, it, it, it, it, you never come up short. Never. You never come and, and you can't get people to understand that because once, uh, a Betty Steersman begins to learn through obedience, she sees it happen. That's it. We go from eight people, eight deaf people on the front. Row. Yep. And she comes to me and says, we need a pastor for the deaf church.
You, there's no deaf church. You don't have a deaf Sunday school class yet, Betty. [00:39:00] That's it. But we call a pastor. That's right. Because of that, all the deaf work at that's right at, uh, happened because of that. Now, Betty. And, uh, and, and we're picking on Betty Steerman, who, who led Brentwood to, to do the deaf work because we both know and love her so, so very much Because of that, now there is a nationally impacting and engaged world impacting ministry because of, of her boldness from the small lessons she was learning to the big lessons that she began to learn.
That's, but it goes back even further to an ecclesiology. Where the pastors can listen and see what God's doing in our people. Mm-hmm. And we get behind what God's doing in them versus everything having to come top down. Right. Well, and that's the hardest thing is when other people start loving your church members more than they love you as pastor.
That's, That's right. You know, [00:40:00] because our deacons took over the pastoral care ministry and I would run into people go, Hey, do you know. And they were named a deacon. I say, yeah, I know him. He came and visited my mother. You should heard him pray. We love him.
We just, and I think we used to love me. That's right. And, and, and by the way, Paul Taylor. Oh, part of the deacon ministry, a member of our church who had a vision Oh, for how the deacon ministry could be run better. And the leadership of the church said, Paul, we love it. Go for it.
Go do it. And uh, and I think there's a lot of churches, pastors that may give that lip service. You have to be secure enough mm-hmm. For it to get a little messy sometimes. Yeah. Well, and, and trust God with the results. The, the different gifts among the people. Yes. The, the people that we had who ran our finances.
And that were, Hey, I tell people they would look at a spreadsheet and get teary eyed, you know, because it was such a beautiful thing to do. Yes, yes. You know, make drove me crazy. That's right. That's right. That, but we need them in [00:41:00] that world role. We got to have 'em or nothing else works. That's right. All right.
So tell me what keeps you up at night right now. Alright. I always used to say. Be careful of a, of this term called presentism. It's this idea when we tend to say things have never been as bad as they are right now. Right. Or things have never been as good. Right. How do you know? Yeah.
Yeah. How do you know? I would say though, the last eight to 10 years. It has been a unique time in human history. Mm-hmm. And we do tend to live in a harsher time, and it seems that God's people are more afraid than ever. So here's what keeps me up at night. Fear is not a good look for God's people.
Mm-hmm. What happens when you're afraid you tend to retreat? Mm-hmm. You tend to become more tribal in your orientation. Yeah. The beautiful us and them, [00:42:00] that is God's creation. The variety becomes frightening and a problem. Now, I, I think there's an antidote to that Sure. Generosity and mission.
But when fear increases confidence in God decreases mm-hmm. The antidote, when you lean into God's mission and his ways. Confidence in God increases and fear will decrease. And what is that perfect love? Cast out fear. All fear. Yeah. So, so, so much of Christianity just seems to be fear driven, fear of the other.
They're coming to get us or we need to dominate someone. Right. And I don't see that as the way of Jesus. Mm-hmm. Now that doesn't mean we don't have power. What's even more powerful against those? Forces of darkness, the issues are real. Mm-hmm. We love deeper. We love harder. And not that there aren't lines that can't be crossed, but what keeps me up at [00:43:00] night is I just wonder if we as God's people are gonna pay a heavy price.
As we often give into our fear, fear rather than going confident that God's ways really do work, right? So that's something that concerns me, and I'm concerned because of the fear that in time, and I think we're already seeing this in both global missions as well as local missions and outreach, we need to retreat.
We need to build bigger barns, higher walls. And that conspires against generosity, the gospel and evangelism. Mm-hmm. And so that does concern me a lot of bright spots. But 'cause God's still on the move and God has solutions for that. Oh yeah. But that concerns me and that keeps me up at night.
Alright. I stand on a positive note. Yes. You have just taken a job in a local church. Yes. [00:44:00] And we'll talk to you, you and your therapist about that later. Yes. Okay. Yes. But what excites you? Yes. At First Baptist Nashville started in 1820. Mm-hmm. As I understand it, the first group of Baptists first gathered around 1798.
Sometimes Baptists aren't fast. Took them a couple of decades, I guess, to figure it out. To figure it out and get organized. So we're a 200 and 5-year-old church. We have been on that corner for 140 years. Mm-hmm. It was a center of innovation. Yes. Lifeway. It was birthed in the basement of that church and was run out of that church for a year, was run outta that church.
Then Mike, reading the history. So in 1970 they published a book on the hundred and 50th anniversary. Mm-hmm. The year Brentwood Baptist was started. Started First Baptist, published a book on its first 150 years. Hundred 50 years. Yeah. Wow. And [00:45:00] you read in those depression years. They were gonna do anything.
It took not to cut missions, so they did without. In order to love their city. And so that excites me and the people there who are ready and who are committed, and who are creative god's people, whether it's at Brentwood Baptist or at First Baptist, Nashville. Man, they love God so much and they're willing to do whatever it takes.
And so I am thrilled about the opportunity and, you know, first Baptist, Nashville, right in the heart of things. And, uh, so a couple of things that we've talked about as a church, number one in 10 years, what would it look like if half of our people drove in? And half the people walked, walked.
So I've been asking a lot of people who drive in and they drive by a lot of good churches. Why and they say [00:46:00] we love our city. And we believe a thriving city needs a thriving church downtown. I know a lot of those people, people trying to stop them and try to get them to stop. And now I'm like, Hey, keep driving.
And by the way, COVID, COVID hit churches unevenly. And you know, it was fascinating in just learning more of the history, long past as well as recent past, COVID really did a number on downtown churches. Mm-hmm. Because what happened was, is. First Baptist was clo, it's in Davison County, was closed a lot longer.
So all those people that had driven for so many years. Mm-hmm. Understandably. They went to a church that was open. Yeah. So the recovery time for some churches is a lot longer than others. Mm-hmm. I hadn't thought about that. You're probably right. Yeah. But they, but her. But I, I, so I, I'm, as I'm getting to know people, it's weird.
I'm new to the church, but not new to the city. Mm-hmm. So find out who do we know in common and all of that. And these people, they wouldn't call themselves heroes. [00:47:00] But so many heroes we know they're stuck with it. Yeah. And of course I want to chiefly honor God, but man, I wanna honor those folks. Mm-hmm.
That have hung in there and all those generations. Yeah. For 205 years. That's pretty exciting. How many stories do we know that were, uh, stories of heroes and, and is the hero is the one who shows up. That's it. That's it. That just kept showing up. In fact, Thomas, today in a staff meeting, we were talking about consistency will win over intensity any day of the week.
Any day of the week. Just keep showing. That's it. So these are exciting days. Mm-hmm. And I'm just so grateful for those years at Brentwood Baptist where we were able to do some creative wonderful things and years at Mission Increase, where I was introduced to the nonprofit world, by the way, you know, in the last 40 years, [00:48:00] the number of congregations in the United States.
Has gone from 400,000 to 350,000. Mm-hmm. As a conservative evangelical for a lot of years, I would say that's a liberal problem. It's not math. No, it's everyone's, yeah. It's issue across the, the board, across the. 400,000 to 350,000 in that same 40 year time period. The best we can ascertain the number of faith-based nonprofits, I'm not talking municipalities or hospitals.
Right, right. The the food bank. Mm-hmm. The transitional housing program has gone from 10,000 to 160,000. Wow. I was in Miami recently doing a workshop where we bring pastors and nonprofit leaders together. You wanna see fireworks? Put 'em in the same room. I showed him that statistic. Congregations going down, nonprofits skyrocketing.
Some pastors were like, yep, they're part of the problem. They take our money and our people had some nonprofit leaders cheer we're winning. And [00:49:00] I wanted to say, you're both wrong. No one wins. Nobody wins unless we're both an up and to the right. So how do we get God's people in these two structures to work better?
Together. Mm-hmm. That will work whether you're in the pastor seat or in the nonprofit seat. Mm-hmm. God's people with a common love for their city, their world, their community, working together in these two structures. A congregation by definition, is a generalist structure. You, regardless of size. Or income, you have to do cradle to grave ministry.
Mm-hmm. A church does not have the luxury to say, we need to focus on our strengths. We're good at weddings. We're bad at funerals. Yeah. So we're not gonna do funerals anymore. Where the wedding church, if you want a funeral, go to that church. That's right. You can't do that. Built in inefficiency. It's part of God's design, cradle to grave.
That's God's structure for the congregation. But you see this in Acts 13, Barnabas and Saul are called out of [00:50:00] that local congregation. They're sent on a missionary journey, Barnabas and Saul and, uh, and their compatriots. That wasn't a congregation going around the Mediterranean. They were a missional unit.
Mm-hmm. Meant to. Plant congregations, right? And uh, so as they did that, churches grew. So what happens is. You have the specialist form of the organization. Some call it the sodality, which is a Latin term, so Dallas, which means a guild, a task force, a fraternity, a sorority. So that's by God's design to go tackle a problem.
Mm-hmm. Hunger a a, or literacy a unit with a particular specific mission. That's it. That's it. Generalist, right. Specialist. Mm-hmm. They need each other. Mm-hmm. And so as God's people, as pastors, as nonprofit leaders, we need a higher, sharper ecclesiology to reach our [00:51:00] city. Oh yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Scott, thanks for your time, man.
Love your passion. Love you, love your drink, and thank you love dreams. Love you. I'm honored. And, uh, whatever success I'm gonna take full credit for, you know that, so I know you will. And, uh, there's a certain percentage that you deserve to take. Yeah. But I'm not taking all of it. I, I know you is that.
Love your brother. I love you too. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Yeah.
