Shepherds Without Sheep: Technology, Money, and Ministry
In this candid conversation, three former pastors—Tim Harlow, Michael Easley, and Mike Glenn—share hard-won wisdom on shepherding in a changing world. From overhead projectors and cassette tapes to livestreams and AI, they trace how technology has always rattled the church—and how to use new tools with integrity: attribution over plagiarism, outlines that aid but never replace soul-deep preaching, and tech that informs without trying to transform.
-
Tim Harlow: Easily has friends that are anti-everything. You
Michael Easley: know that, right? I'm proud of that. 'Cause I have friends. What? That's right, yeah. He, he, he goes and looks for them. Yeah. That's right, yeah.
Tim Harlow: Hey, welcome to Shepherds Without Sheep. We are having so much fun. Sheep were hard. Um, I'm Tim Harlow. I was a senior pastor in Chicagoland at Parkview Christian Church for 33 years. My friend to my left is Michael
Michael Easley: Easley. So I pastored about, about 45 years at different churches around the country, and I'm semi-retired.
Mm-hmm. As am I. And enjoy hanging out with you [00:01:00] guys. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Michael Easley: Oh, he gets the intro? I don't get the intro? Uh, this is my
Tim Harlow: best friend- You just kinda give it... You just kinda look at me? Mike, Mike Glenn. He really is in a mood today, isn't he? He is in a mood today. My, my best friend in the world, Mike Glenn. He got
Michael Easley: the ugly stick today.
Mike Glenn: Behave. But yeah, I recent- Behave ... recently stepped aside, uh, from senior pastor at Brentwood Baptist Church for 32 years, so. Is that what you did? Yeah. You stepped aside. I stepped aside. Stepped aside. All right.
Tim Harlow: That's right. Yeah, so our, our goal is to, you know, take our collective wisdom, uh, as, as little as that might be-
and talk about some things. And, and, uh, I'm hosting today, so I asked a couple of my young friends some questions, um, my young pastor friends, "What would you like to hear from, you know, from the old, the old gang?" And, um, and one of them, w- we laughed about a minute ago when I brought it up, but I think it's really im- I think it's something we can address, and it's just the technology thing.
Um, obviously you're looking at, uh, you know, three people that can barely set their VCR's, uh, timer right, [00:02:00] because that- What's a VCR? It's not... I know. It's, it's even better that way. Um, w- you know, we're, we're not tech-savvy, but it was kinda funny when we s- when I brought it up, I'm like, you know, but we did...
When we all started, um, it was cassette tapes. Mm-hmm. Um, there weren't, there were no computers, let alone internet. Um, Easley was joking about, you know, the, the overhead. I mean, that's how we did worship back in the day. And, and inevitably, we had one guy that had a missing finger- ... and, and, and he'd get his hand up.
I'm not kidding. It was great. He'd get his hand up in there- Yeah. ... you know, to change the, change the thing,
Mike Glenn: and everybody's like, "Oh, yeah." It's Glenn. It's Glenn.
Tim Harlow: Terrible. He was my favorite. That's terrible. But, but that, and you don't even know what that is. It was like a, a light projecting through a, a, a blank piece of transparency film- Acetate ... that, that, they put it on the screen. They put it on some lenses.
Mike Glenn: They threw it on a, on
Michael Easley: a- Did you ever do it as you taught?
Mike Glenn: Did
Michael Easley: you write? Yeah. Oh,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. [00:03:00] Yeah, that was- That was- Always you'd write and had to turn the scroll to get a clean piece of- Uh-huh. Yeah ... get it on your sleeve. Yeah.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. So talk about how we, um, handled technology and its changes, and maybe stuff that can work now.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
I, I think it's funny, uh, that, that we need to remind all our, all our friends that every time there was technology in the church, there was a crisis. Mm. There was a big deal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, if- first time we plugged up a guitar- Uh-huh ... oh, gosh, we're gonna- Drums. Drums ... drums. Drums. Oh, yeah.
That was terrible. The, the first time that, uh, we started passing around cassette tapes. Uh-huh. You know, "Here, here's one of my favorite preachers." Yeah, yeah. A- and that kind of stuff. Were you- All of that was controversial.
Michael Easley: Were you, uh, ear- old enough, early enough when they had three and a half inch reels- Oh, yeah
before they had cassettes? Yeah. 'Cause I used to get sermons that were on three and a half inch reel to reel. On reel, reels. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry to
Mike Glenn: interrupt. Be like a whole month of, of, of sermons on, on one like one reel. Yeah, you just couldn't Bible church with one. Yeah.[00:04:00]
So, so yeah. So all of this, all of this, every time w- we've had... And then, um, you know, the first time you get a desktop computer- Mm-hmm ... the first time- Yeah, yeah ... you used slides in the service- Mm-hmm ... and, and all of that. The first time- Video projector ... the controversy of recorded music. You remember soloist always- Oh, yeah
used to sing- Accompaniment ... with re- recorded. Yeah. They didn't use the- Interesting. Yeah ... the, the musicians, and, and how, how awful that was- Yeah ... that you didn't ac- and you didn't have Aunt Sue accompany with you. Did you have, did you have
Michael Easley: controversy when you projected stuff on screens- Mm-hmm ... at the church?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michael Easley: Did you do iMag, where you magnified you when you were speaking? Yeah, sometimes,
Mike Glenn: yeah.
Michael Easley: Oh. That was a- That was a- Yeah ... that was a big challenge. So
Mike Glenn: all, all, you know, so then they said, "Well then, now what about AI?" Yeah. And all of that. Yeah. It, it's the same, same questions. Yeah. And the first thing I wanna tell my friends is, don't believe the hype.
Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, here we are in [00:05:00] 2025, and I can remember in the '70s and all when we were promised- Flying cars and r- and robots were gonna be doing everything. Yeah. And w- and we were wondering what we were gonna do with all our leisure time. Right. We, we were gonna have so much- And that because you wouldn't be any jobs.
Yeah. Robots- Right ... would be doing all of that. Yeah. And we still don't have a flying car. No.
Michael Easley: Well- People drive that way though. Not that we know of. Yeah, well, well,
Mike Glenn: they, yeah. But, and so, so to tell me that AI can, can preach a sermon and AI can do that, nah, I'm the old guy on the porch. I don't, nah, I, I'm not buying that.
So,
Tim Harlow: so what about, uh, uh, from an ethical standpoint, I guess- Mm-hmm ... with technology, you know? I mean, I've, you know, I have a son-in-law that helps me figure out, you know, AI and some of this stuff- Mm-hmm ... along the way, and I have used AI, and it's amazing. I mean- Mm-hmm ... like, I, I, I get a sermon done, I feed it to it, and- Really?
and yeah. And, and I've had, you know, you know, when you're putting the, the line up on the [00:06:00] screen that you want people to remember, I've had several times when AI thought of it, not me. They said it better, he, she, what- whoever it is, said it better than I ever would. Um, but then you've got the whole, you know, are you just gonna let AI write your sermon?
And, and- Wow ... and, you know, and, and, and, and I mean, we had the same... We didn't have that, but we had- Mm-hmm ... you know, you could steal somebody else's and how, how do you just, how do you deal with that from a technological standpoint? What do you think?
Michael Easley: Y'all have probably seen the John Piper thing he did- Mm-hmm
about maybe a month ago, whenever this is- Yeah ... broadcast, where he, he said, what was it? Write a prayer- Yeah ... in the theology of D.A. Carson. Mm-hmm. What was it? Yeah. On the holiness of God or something. Yeah, yeah. And then he reads it. It was, it was a phenomenal prayer. Exactly. And then typical Piper, he goes, "It's not a prayer, it's a machine."
You know, and he gets all spun up. Um, I was with, uh, one of our very close friends in the music industry, and he said, "This is, this is tectonic in the music [00:07:00] industry." Oh, gosh. Absolutely. 'Cause you're not writing a song anymore. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. You throw some lines and hooks, and AI writes a better song. I know.
But the, the, the thing we lose, and I, I had a, I had an interview on In Context a few weeks ago, um, with someone and, and they were talking about, is it long language learning, AI, and there's a third one, and they, they gave the essays to teachers, and the teachers could pick out the AI every time. Hmm. They said the vocabulary is great, syntax is great, but there was no feel.
There was no- Yeah ... emotion. That's right, yeah. And so from a sermon- ... I mean, I guess it'd be nice to have a, a better outline. Yeah. Maybe alliterated or something. Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. But, but they're- If Rick Warren's
Tim Harlow: not available,
Michael Easley: yeah ... but we're losing the sweat equity- Mm-hmm ... of 15, 20 hours writing a message.
Yeah. And that's when you own it. Right. And you know, you've integrated- Mm-hmm ... 'cause you've hammered through the theology or word study or, Lord, what am I [00:08:00] trying to do to these poor people? That's
Mike Glenn: right . Right. Well, y- you know, Paul, Paul wrote that, uh, that he had the, he had the ability to preach 'cause he had met Christ.
And I, I, I know what I'm talking about 'cause I've met him. Uh, AI will never meet Christ. Hmm. AI will have all of the words about Jesus, but it will never meet Christ. And because of that, it will always end up playing the right notes, but never getting the music. Hmm. You know, I can sit down at a piano and hit right notes, but- Yeah
it's a long way, it's a long way from music.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. And your audience can tell- Knows that ... if it's coming from your soul- Yeah, yeah ... or you're reading a piece of paper. Well, you
Michael Easley: had mentioned, Tim, that, you know, in, in prior decades pastors got in trouble for stealing sermons- Right.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, absolutely ... and
Michael Easley: not, and not giving attribution- Yeah.
Yeah ... you know? And, and, uh- Which
Tim Harlow: I always thought was dumb, 'cause when I stole a sermon, I just told everybody where I got it- Yeah ... and I [00:09:00] solved
Mike Glenn: it. Yeah . I mean, you know? Or the people come up and say, "Hey, I stole your line." Hey, I'm fine. The guy I stole it from- ... he's gonna
Michael Easley: be hacked. Well, to me it was, it was not even stealing so much as just attribution.
Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause if you quote somebody, it, it doesn't make you look bad- No ... to say this was- No ... a quote from Sinclair Ferguson or whatever. Yeah. And, and to say, "You know, I couldn't... I found an illustration that I heard from whoever." Yeah. "I can't improve on D.A. Carson- Yeah. Right ... or whatever. I can't improve."
I think it's more than that.
Tim Harlow: I think a- attribution makes you look smarter- You, you've done homework ... because you've actually done homework. Yeah. Yeah. And you're not just up there making stuff up. Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, I, I really think that's important. I think that
Michael Easley: should free pastors to say, "Don't be embarrassed or feel like you have to take an outline and tweak it a little bit to make it yours."
Yeah. Just say, "You know- Yeah ... I found an outline in Constable's Notes. It's phenomenal- Yeah ... so I'm gonna use that today- Yeah ... to walk through this passage." Yeah. Mm-hmm. People don't dish you for that. No.
Tim Harlow: But they don't know who Constable is, but- Well- ... uh, yeah ...
Michael Easley: well, there's somebody out there who does. Yeah. Um, on the internet.
Or [00:10:00] somebody on
Mike Glenn: the phone. They're, they're, they're Googling right now. Yeah, you're right. You're right. So if it comes up- Yeah ... you better be able to say, "Yep." You better,
Tim Harlow: you better make sure you got
Mike Glenn: the attribution right. Yeah. Right, yeah. That's, that's very true. All right, uh- I, I would, I would use AI. I would, I would be- Uh, make myself available of every tool.
Uh- How would
Tim Harlow: you
Mike Glenn: use AI? Uh- Okay, I
Tim Harlow: got, I got an answer. Okay. Got a friend that started a company called SermonTech.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Tim Harlow: And, uh, they use AI to, and y- because you know what it was like when you were doing it, and your small groups team- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... and your, your education people wanted your sermon done a week ahead of time.
Right. Hmm. And your- Yeah, so you could, you could- ... sermon's never done until you do it. And usually for me, it was the second or third time I did it. Right. So, so- Yeah ... SermonTech, they, they can literally put your, your sermon, they li- they listen to your sermon, and AI spits out the whole small group curriculum for the week.
Exactly right. Wow. And three [00:11:00] or four social media posts. That's exactly, and it'll break it down. And it's done within six minutes.
Michael Easley: Yeah, yeah. And it can break it down like that. So, so Logos Bible Software, Faith- Faith Bible So- Software, they have an AI now, but it's only within the Logos resource. Mm-hmm.
It's not going out- Sure ... to the internet. Yeah. Right. It's only using your library. Yeah. And- Well, see, this,
Mike Glenn: this would only use your sermon.
Tim Harlow: It would, it
Mike Glenn: w- Yeah, it would use- It was, it was
Tim Harlow: using my stuff.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Tim Harlow: But instead of me, uh, because- Yeah ... inevitably, I'm gonna get down to, you know, the last minute, and I'm gonna make a tweak or I'm gonna change a point that really is more effective- Mm-hmm
at that, at that moment. Mm-hmm. I don't care how much prep I've done- No, it, well, it's the freedom to- ...
Mike Glenn: it, it's gonna be that way ... to engage with your congregation. And, yeah,
Tim Harlow: and read the room. Okay, r- yeah. And, and whatever. Interesting. So then you get done with it, you know- Mm-hmm ... then if you've got, if your team is working on Sunday afternoon to get the study questions- Well, you're
Michael Easley: not printing bulletin.
It's gonna go electronically. That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna go to your small group leaders. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So AI can do that pretty quick. [00:12:00] That's interesting. Yeah. Interesting. AI can do a lot of your research pretty quick. Yeah. You know, so if you say, you know, "Bring me what the important insights- Find me the best illustration-
on, on eschatology. Yeah, to close this sermon. That's exactly right. Yeah, bring people to Christ. It's g- yeah. And it, and, and a lot of times it can find that. I, yeah, I would use it. Right. But I would not, I would not base my future on it.
Tim Harlow: Right. No, I mean, it-
Mike Glenn: Because inevitably it's gonna, it's gonna disappoint.
It, it, it's not gonna
Tim Harlow: take away from- No ... us getting our own education and- No. One would hope ... yeah, and you know, all of that. There
Michael Easley: was a, a guy, s- this is a while back, who, he took his worship team, and they said, "This is the passage. These are the songs. Write us a order of service." And, and they did it. And then of course they had to rehearse.
And h- after he did it, he told the church ahead of time, "We're doing the whole service AI."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michael Easley: And afterwards, he did kind of a debrief, and he said, "It was good, it was interesting, but it didn't save us any time, and I would not recommend doing it-" Wow ... you know, in lieu of- Yeah ... [00:13:00] you know. Yeah. Yeah, they're gonna- Yeah
push the shove button. Sweat. Who knows? Right, yeah. Before long, we'll just tap our temple three times and- Right. Yeah.
Tim Harlow: Um, but, but, but to that point, I mean, joking about overheads and, and video screens- Yeah ... we all embraced it
Mike Glenn: Yeah Every one of you- Yeah. And, and all of it- No, no, none of us didn't sit and say- And all of it had controversy Yeah And it didn't, it didn't make or break anything.
Yeah.
Michael Easley: Now, there are some stalwarts that they don't live stream. They, they don't like projecting lyrics. Mm-hmm. Now, they might project the, the passage.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: You know? Yeah. But even that, I have, uh, friends that are anti that 'cause you, people need to bring their Bibles. That's right. And I'm all about that, but- Easily has friends that are anti-everything.
You know that, right? I'm proud of that. 'Cause I have friends. Well, that's right, yeah. He, he c- he goes and looks for them. Yeah. That's right, yeah.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, they should bring their Bibles, but, uh- They don't ... but, uh, I don't I bring my phone. I'm sorry. Yeah, I've been praying
Michael Easley: about that, Tim. Yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm sorry.
Tim Harlow: I don't know where my Bible is.
I, I- Ooh ...
Michael Easley: I do it [00:14:00] on
Tim Harlow: a laptop.
Michael Easley: And on that note- I'm high tech ... it's in a box. It's in a box. I mean- It's in a box somewhere ... yeah, yeah ... in my garage. The Lord's gonna come soon.
Tim Harlow: I, I actually, n- now this, I mean, I'll just admit this, but when I'm preaching, I do have a Bible, but because- It holds your notes ... no, th- it- It holds- No, it holds my scriptures That's right.
But they're- Holds his phone ... put in larger font It holds his phone. No, they're just scriptures in larger font so I can actually read them. Read. That's right. And it's all on the same page. They take Bibles- Everybody thinks I'm reading the Bible ... and,
Michael Easley: and they cut out the pick hammer. Yeah, yeah, that's right.
You know, he's got an iPhone and this is-
Tim Harlow: That's right. That, that would sell. That's a, that's a marketable idea right there. That's, yeah, just- So all right, uh, another question I got was about staff and realizing that, um, some of you are solo pastors. Um, apply this conversation maybe to, uh, your leadership team or, or whatever.
Um, what are some things you wish you would've done differently? What are some things you learned, um, in general dealing with [00:15:00] staff? Because a lot of guys I'm talking to and ladies I'm talking to in ministry, that's a big rub. I mean, trying to find the right people, where do you get them? Um, how do you keep them?
What do you limit them to? How do you encourage them?
Mike Glenn: Okay. Let, let's begin with, uh, what, what we're finding out. The f- the long-term future of the church is gonna be less and less full-time.
Tim Harlow: Absolutely. It's
Mike Glenn: gonna be more and more- Right ... part-time. Yeah. So, so the question then is, especially if I'm a solo- Let me interrupt
Michael Easley: for a second.
Is that because of economics or- Yes, uh,
Mike Glenn: all the streams are coming together. Okay. Uh, one, one is economics. Uh, Gen, Gen Y and Z are generous. They do give. Uh, they will give you the shirt off their back for a well in Africa. Right. They won't give you 15 cents for the light bulb in the sanctuary.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: I- is that, is that a good thing that we're gonna have more part-time people?
Or should we educate the body to say- It's okay ... why you need full-time- Well- ... or do we not [00:16:00] need them?
Mike Glenn: Th- th- that I don't, uh, that I don't know Um, uh, I, I would say, yeah, you, if, one- once the body gets to a certain size, you have to have full-time people.
Michael Easley: Mm-hmm. There- 'Cause we used to work- Oh, yeah ... work on formulas-
Mike Glenn: Right
for so many- Oh, yeah ... people, so many staff. Right, yeah. 150 people in your, you know, whatever. Or whatever. Right.
Michael Easley: Yeah. Okay, I'm sorry to interrupt, but- But no, uh- No, it's good ...
Mike Glenn: so, so the thing is how, how do then we bring on our church members in certain roles that we used to have in staff? Mm-hmm. And how do you break those up so you don't have one 40-hour job, you've got 10 four-hour jobs?
Tim Harlow: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, because what happens is, is that in most churches you're asking for full-time volunteers for no pay. Right.
Tim Harlow: Right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. And people get burned on that pretty quick.
Tim Harlow: Well, and there's a, there's a sense, I think, you know, you go back to, you know, the younger generation and what they want.
Mm-hmm. They also wanna make a difference.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Tim Harlow: And they'll give you f- [00:17:00] they'll give you fi- they'll give you money for a project, but they'll give you five hours for something- Yeah, sure will ... that they- Yeah ... that they believe is important. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And they're working from home, so they're, you know, they're not really working a, a full week anyway.
Just kidding. Just, I'm, I'm just kidding. Two son-in-laws. Um, but you know, there is a, there's more expendable time- But there's a freedom. Yeah ... and, and freedom- There's a freedom to it ... so they can do that. What do you think? So, so, well, I mean- Do you have somebody that's against that? Probably.
Michael Easley: No, no, I, I'm thinking more of intentionality, hiring what you need- Right
not what you want. Well- And so i- if it was, you know, if I was starting a church today, my first primary would be a discipler. Mm-hmm. Right. And that discipleship might look different. It might be a discipling of children's ministries or worship leaders or whatever. The last church I was involved with, the, the gentleman we brought on to do our worship, I, I commissioned him.
I said, "I don't want you to bring musicians in to rehearse. I want you to d- to disciple- Excellent ... worship leaders." Right. So if he's a bass player or [00:18:00] drummer- Mm ... spend time with them- Mm-hmm ... pour into their life. Mm-hmm. Don't just check a box, we got pr- uh- Yeah ... planning center. Right. We got everybody in line.
Right, yeah. We got the stage full. Um, and I, and I would say today you're probably gonna need a tech person. You're probably gonna need someone, uh- There are gonna be some- Yeah ... there are gonna be some things that you can't do without ... for, for Pro Tools- Right ... yeah ... for, you know, Pro Presenter, uh, whatever they're using- Yeah
'cause-
Mike Glenn: Social media. You- You're gonna have to have somebody to do social media. Yeah ... you
Michael Easley: may have a wonderfully gifted young person that says, "I'll be happy to do that," but you might not. Mm-hmm. You might have to hire someone out, and, um, it's complicated. Uh, I, I think who you hire, you're putting in front of the congregation to say, "That's the Christian character we want you to be like."
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: And it can't just be, you know, a friend.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: Uh, it's gotta be someone... And then the harder part of this is evaluating that staff- Uh, you know, do they have clear expectations, and do you have a clear way to evaluate them? And that's where the pastor, maybe he doesn't wanna [00:19:00] be an HR person. Yeah,
Tim Harlow: no.
Michael Easley: So you're gonna have to find someone who can do that for you.
Yeah. I mean, we're all in pretty large churches- Yeah ... and at some point you're not evaluating staff. Right. No, no. No. Um, I had a what I call a PLT at one church, pastoral leadership team, and there were five of us. I was the only one that was in perpetuity, and then we had an executive pastor, and then I rotated every year a different pastor, 'cause we had about 12 full-time pastors.
We had about s- 80 staff. Mm. Mm-hmm. And so we had that PLT, and each of them had a role. Yeah. So that was sort of the group I was shepherding- Right ... if you will. Right. And then of course you have elders and deacons and how that works. But I think you r- need to think long and hard about why you're staffing.
Is it just 'cause it's a time constraint or this intentionality? The other thing today is you need children's ministry.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: You gotta really- Quick ... do well with kids if you wanna get parents- There are a few
Tim Harlow: roles. I've got a, I've got a, a friend that, um, I got a friend that's in [00:20:00] a, a small town, and they lost their worship pastor, and there's not anybody in that, you know, it's- Mm-hmm
I, I know- It's not Nashville ... it's not Nashville, you know? Mm-hmm. It, it's not, "Hey, hey, drummer," you know? Um, it, it, it's, it's, it, it's hard for him, so he had to go... That's a, that's a position that they had to hire, and you're gonna have to hire full-time 'cause you're gonna bring- Right ... somebody in. That's the way it meant.
But, uh, but I think you're right. I mean, e- even to the point where, you know, a lot of our, our solo pastors or, or, or a lot of churches are gonna be filled b- going back to tentmaking, which- Right ... um, kind of goes to one of the other questions I'm gonna get at here in a minute. But, but, you know, that's how it got started, and it is possible, and there are ways to m- make it happen.
Mm-hmm. You know? Back in the day, that, that wasn't as easy as it was- Mm-hmm ... as it is now.
Michael Easley: Are, are, are you seeing, and especially you, are you seeing adult education, Sunday School kind of going away?
Mike Glenn: Yes, all going to groups. Yeah.
Michael Easley: C- but can a small group do what an adult ed class [00:21:00] could do? It can
Mike Glenn: It can
Tim Harlow: But does it need to?
Now, now,
Mike Glenn: now does it, or does it consistently? Probably not.
Tim Harlow: And does it need to?
Michael Easley: Well, if you're gonna have membership- Right ... for example, if, if... I'm thinking of smaller churches starting out growing. You know, is that a priority? Uh, what, what do we believe? Why do we believe this? Right. And do I need a person that's, uh, small group leaders, hospitality- Mm-hmm
that's pretty easy to come by. Yeah, yeah. But a person that can open the doctrinal statement or- Right ... your statement of faith or membership class and answer those questions that are gonna come from new people, that can't just be-
Tim Harlow: But then again, you're, we go back to the tech conversation, right? I mean, back in the day, we all, uh, did Purpose Driven Life, and all of our small groups watched Rick Warren on a- Mm-hmm
DVD in a flowery Hawaiian shirt teaching stuff that- Yeah ... that, that was going along with the, with the program, and that's way easier to do today. [00:22:00] The, the, the one-on-one conversations that, you know, the like, h- this is what we believe, let's just say, about, uh, marriage, and then the side conversations that are gonna come from that are probably gonna need to go to somebody that's not a small group leader.
But I'm not sure I wanted an adult education teacher- Program ... necess- necessarily having that conversation either, you know? It, it, it, it feels to me like, it feels to me like there's a, there's gotta be a balance, and I think you can use tech. You c- let me put it this way. You can use tech for information.
You can't use tech for, um- Transformation ... for, for transformation. Yeah. For-
Michael Easley: Shepherding, pastoring ... for shepherding, for, for- One-on-one life ... yeah. For the one-on-ones. Well, you talked about watch-
Mike Glenn: uh, walking, uh, watching Rick Warren. The, the thing is that any pastor now With an iPhone- That's what I'm saying
can make their own video- Yeah ... for their new member class. Right.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. And you could, you could literally answer-
Michael Easley: Yeah,
Tim Harlow: yeah ... any question- Mm-hmm ... and have it on a, on your site. My, my
Michael Easley: [00:23:00] concern with the small group, whatever you call them, has been the, it seems like the, the theolo- the biblical theological thing just falls off the cliff.
Yeah. And y- y- you may have a few in your church. I, I know some of the, uh, I have friends that teach Sunday School classes- Mm-hmm ... at, at Brentwood Baptist Church. Mm-hmm. And they're, they're high caliber. Yeah. They're qualified people. Mm-hmm. And I'm glad- Mm-hmm ... for that. Uh, when we were at Church of Virginia, we had some very smart guys- Sure, yeah
that were teaching big classes. And, you know, maybe they're teaching how to study the Bible or the Book of Isaiah or minor prophets. And the, the beauty there is, well, what about, you know, you can- Yeah ... interrupt and ask questions, where in a sermon it's a one-way didactic matter. Yeah. Or, or
Tim Harlow: on a video. Yeah.
You can't- Yeah, on a
Mike Glenn: video you can't interrupt or g- have that. Uh, but the, the, the challenge of any group is that it always ends up being, um, I say it always ends up being, if you're not careful, if you don't have a structure to it, then it ends up being a conversation of what happened this past [00:24:00] week. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Football games. Or what does this mean to you? Y- what does this mean to you? And, you know, all of this. Let's read
Michael Easley: a
Mike Glenn: passage. Yeah. What's this mean to you, Tim?
Michael Easley: Yeah. I don't really care. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. Yeah. No, no.
Mike Glenn: My, my son was 12 years old and he came home one day and he said, "I'm not going to Sunday School anymore."
I said, "Well, son, you kinda gotta have to here." And he said, "Nope." I said, "Why not?" He said, "They read the passage and look at me and go, 'What do you think?'" He said, "I'm 12." And I'm not Jesus. It's frightening. So he ended up going to an adult Sunday School class- Yeah, yeah ... with one of these guys going, "All right, I know where you need to go."
That, that's good though. So, yeah.
Tim Harlow: So I don't know how we got there from sta- well, no, we, there, there are certain positions- Right ... that you're gonna need. Yeah, you're gonna have- And, and- A- and,
Mike Glenn: and that changes, you know, w- we, we laugh about being in Nashville. The fact is, you don't have to have a full-time musician here in Nashville.
Yeah, yeah. Because- But in parts of the country- In parts of the country- ... you're gonna have to hire- You're gonna have to- Right ... you're gonna have to do- ... certain positions- Do things ... that may not be- [00:25:00] Yeah ...
Michael Easley: there's a geographic limitation. Yeah. And we've all preached in churches where the best musicians they had wouldn't- No
wouldn't make it in Middle Tennessee. No. Right, yeah. But that's who you have. Yeah. The Lord gives you. So
Mike Glenn: here, here in Nashville you have to spend a lot more time on the discipleship aspect.
Michael Easley: Mm.
Mike Glenn: A lot more emphasis. Because anything that stands still long enough here gets a little Jesus veneer painted on it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good word. And, uh, and so you, the, the discipleship is not as deep as it needs to be.
Michael Easley: Right. Uh, let me turn the heat up. When do you, when and why do you remove a staff member?
Tim Harlow: Oh, um- Quickly and often. Um, it, uh, who was the leadership guru that said when you, uh, when you drive in the parking lot and you see their car in the parking lot- Mm-hmm
and y- you have that feeling, that's when you, that's when you need to fire them. Wow. When you [00:26:00] have that feeling that, oh, I'm gonna have to deal with this person again. Yeah. I, I had to fire, we had to let go some really great people, some of my best friends. Um, sometimes it's a, it's a personality thing. They just, you know, it just didn't work out for them.
Sometimes it was a gift mix. I had a, I had a children's director that was, uh, great up to when we were 700.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Tim Harlow: And then I ha- I hired, I, I had to remove her and hire another one that was great till we got to 4,000. Yeah. And then I had to remove her c- 'cause she still wanted to do all the hands-on stuff, and, and find somebody else after that because you just go through different levels.
Mike Glenn: Well, yeah. A Piper Cub pilot cannot fly an F-16. There you go. An F-16 can fly a Piper Cub. Yeah, yeah. But he won't, he won't like it. But he could fly
Tim Harlow: it. But, but when you're a Piper Cub church, you can't afford an F-16 pilot. That's right. Yeah. So usually that means you've got to, you've got to make some changes.
Mm-hmm. And that's, that's just about, you know, that's just about their [00:27:00] abilities. That's, that doesn't have anything to do with attitude. As soon as it starts, as soon as it starts soiling the team, man, it, it has to be dealt with.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Because they will limit the growth of the church to c- to the point where they can't control it.
Michael Easley: Yeah. Fred Smith had a, a, the time to fire someone is before you hire them.
Mike Glenn: Hmm.
Michael Easley: And, uh, I think our, our interview review process- Mm-hmm ... has gotta be, probably more so today than when we were hiring. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta really do some homework. Right. Um, I still go back to a really clear work plan, really clear- Right
employer contract. Good. What am I expecting of you? Yeah. Mm-hmm. In the, in those capacities. Yeah. Well, we're going here, you can no longer do that. The other thing I would add is- Uh, uh, I think a good team leader is going to adjust people. You might hire a person for X-
Tim Harlow: We did that a lot ... and find
Michael Easley: out, you know, this person would really be better over here- Right.
Mm-hmm ... and even write that in the job description. Uh, we used to joke at Emmanuel, other duties [00:28:00] as assigned. Assigned, yeah. That was a number, that was a number nine
Mike Glenn: in our, in our, in our job description. It should be number one. And, and, and, and to that, we ha- we had a guy on our staff for years, uh, Jim Jenkins.
Jim was a prince of a guy, but any time we needed to start something and didn't know how to do it- You went to him ... it went to him. And we would tell him, "Go figure it out." Yeah. "Come back." I love it. What a great guy. And so he would- A gem. Yeah ... you know, there, there, there was nothing about Jim that made him a good singles minister.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: J- we gotta figure out singles. Okay. Yeah. So he became singles minister. Yeah. Went all over the nation, talked to everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Came back and said, "Here's what it looks like." He's brilliant. "Here's who you need to hire."
Tim Harlow: And
Mike Glenn: what's that about? It's about attitude, right? Yeah, yeah. It's about, it's about attitude.
Yeah. And so- A learner ... so we, we fired him from that. Yeah. Right. Said, "All right, now I gotta have stewardship." Mm-hmm. Yeah. "I gotta figure out something." All right, he'd go out, come back, and go, "All right, here's what you need for stewardship." Yeah. I told him, "We're gonna quit printing your cards," because- Just put your name on it Other duties as [00:29:00] assigned.
I'm just, I'm just gonna put Jim. Yeah.
Tim Harlow: That's all I wanna put. But that, that's a, a healthy team. Oh, yeah. We had the same thing. Yeah. All of our campus pastors were hired for different roles. Mm-hmm. We never hired one for a campus pastor role. They came from within- Mm-hmm ... which is another conversation.
Almost all of them. Yeah. You can't always do that, but they came from within, and we moved them, you know- Mm-hmm ... from one thing to the next if they were the right person. If they were the wrong person, then we, we had to move it.
Michael Easley: Mm-hmm. There, there's this unseemly part of when you let somebody go within a congregation.
They all have a constituency. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And they're gonna, "Well, you don't treat them like a Christian." Yeah, yeah. You know, "A Christian shouldn't fire a Christian." We're a family. Yeah, all that. Yeah. And, and that's where you, I think as a, especially a solo pastor, if they're growing into a ministry, you've gotta, you gotta
Again, clarity is your friend. That's right. The clearer you are on the job description and why this person- That's really good ... can expand into it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then also say, "You know, I know this is hard. As, as a brother, as a friend, I [00:30:00] hate it, but this isn't working." Right. "And we'll try to help you find..."
I mean, our, our friend Dave Ramsey says, "When you fire someone, treat them the way you would wanna be treated if you were fired." Yeah. Right. Which is a good, good reminder. It's, you know, you don't wanna be disrespectful of the person. Uh, you wanna be loving, but if it's not working, it's not working. And, and
Tim Harlow: haven't you almost every time had the experience where you ran into that person somewhere later, and they said, "Thank you for doing that"?
Yeah. I- they knew they weren't in the right role. Yeah, they, they knew. They, they, it wasn't, it wasn't working- Yeah ... for them either. And
Mike Glenn: the other thing that, that we have to help pastors understand is, uh- Sometimes as a servant of the church, firing is what is needed. Mm-hmm.
Michael Easley: Well, that's, that was the other part- Yeah
forgive me, that, um, Fred Smith said, "The first person you fire makes a really important decision." Yeah. Because you're telling the rest of the team there was an expectation here that wasn't [00:31:00] met. Mm. Or maybe there was- Right, right ... inappropriate behavior. Right. And we don't, we, we don't do that- Yeah ... in the church.
Mm-hmm. This is the Lord's money, these are His people, and we want staff who understand that. Mm-hmm. And, uh,
Mike Glenn: you know, which w- when, when you've got the bad apple, uh, it affects everybody because everybody looks at the, the guy who's not producing and going, "Well, they're getting paid anyway." Uh, your- And- ... good people, your good people have alternatives.
They can leave. Yep. And, and you're gonna end up with the one bad apple-
Michael Easley: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: or a crate full of bad apples- Mm ... because you didn't make the call early on to, um, uh, to elevate the people who were serving you and, and, and- Yeah ... get rid of the guy who wasn't. I- The guy,
Tim Harlow: the guy that I told, that I talked about that was looking for a worship pastor- Mm-hmm
in a small town, um, I said, "What are," you know, "what are you looking for?" And you know, he's, he's telling me what he's looking for and I, a- and, and, and I said, "I'll, I'll use a nicer word, but y- y- [00:32:00] what you're looking for is a, a guy who's not a jerk." Yeah. And, um, that has something to do with the person who'd previously held that role.
Yeah. Um, but y- he's like, "Yeah, no, I'm, I'm looking for a six or a seven on the talent and a guy that's gonna fit the team." Yeah. And that, I, I thought he's- Yeah. You gotta do it ... he's got
Michael Easley: it figured out. Other, other caution or tale I've learned is that you tend to subconsciously overcompensate for the liabilities of the last guy.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. Oh, so true. And, and you gotta be careful- Great, great word ... you gotta be careful- Yeah ... because this guy wasn't
Michael Easley: organized- Yeah ... or he wasn't a people person. Yeah. And then you hire a people person who c- isn't organized- Right. Yeah, yeah ... you know? And so that's a, that's an intrinsic tripwire.
Tim Harlow: Well, I think, I think the other thing in relation to that, y- you got a...
We had a guy on our staff that, um, was a paraplegic, and everybody called him Love on Wheels.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Tim Harlow: Because he was, he is the most loving guy you would ever meet in your life, and I [00:33:00] had him in a small groups role, a discipleship pastor role, uh, you know, uh, finally got him into pastoral care, and then we had to move some things around.
He was the right guy for our church. Basically, I just needed to pay him to be out in the lobby every weekend- Right, right. Yeah ... and hug everybody. But, but we kept moving him around because he was the right guy for us, but, but his organization ab- ability didn't work, and when I couldn't, when I couldn't move him, then we had to move other people onto the team to make up for it.
So if you got a guy that's a great people person- Mm-hmm ... or a great organizer, then you find the complement- Where they can do ... and, and you help, help them out that way. Yeah. Another question that one of the younger guys asked me w- um, because he knew how hard it was on me, and I know how hard it was on you guys to walk away at some point, you know.
Um, the, the, the the problem with, uh, walking away from pastoral work is when you look at the, to the Bible for a model, it just says, "And they died." Right. So, um, other than [00:34:00] that, you know, there's, there's not a real model, biblical model for- Yeah ... stepping, other than the, the numbers thing, you know, where the- Yeah
high priest was supposed to step away at age 50, which I don't think we give enough credence to, but another discussion. What, what is, uh, uh, what are the things that the younger pastors can be doing now, um, to be preparing themselves for what's gonna happen later on?
Mike Glenn: First of all, get over the, the thing that you're telling yourself, that, "I'll do this till I die."
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I mean, we all, we all said that. Yeah. What, what- Yeah ... what are you gonna do when you retire? "Oh, I'll do this till I retire." Right, right. No, you won't. Yeah, no. That- Let's hope not. Yeah, yeah. You won't do it well. No, no, no. Things change. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and, um, uh, and, you know, Father Time's undefeated in this thing.
Yeah,
Tim Harlow: yeah.
Mike Glenn: And so, one, you need to be preparing in all the ways that you need to. You need to be putting money aside- Mm-hmm ... uh, so that when it comes time to step away, you're not... You know, we got friends that can't- I know ... uh, because they're, they, [00:35:00] they don't have the financial support to do that. Yeah. And now they are trapped, and th- that's a tough, that's a tough- Yeah
way to go.
Michael Easley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Um, you know, as my dad said, "Don't put yourself in a situation where somebody else decides your future." You know, you wanna be able to make that call- Yeah ... when it's appropriate.
Michael Easley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Second, uh, start f- start thinking now and preparing now for what you wanna do when you're done. Mm. Uh, if you, if you wanna d- if you wanna write, if you wanna, you know, build model trains, whatever it is.
Right, right, right. Start doing it now so that you can gradually build up to that.
Michael Easley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Because, you know, I don't know about you guys, but when I stepped away, I s- stepped away.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. I mean, the phone stopped ringing. Man. The email cut, you know- Yeah ... they cut your email off. Yeah, yeah. They, they do all these, you know, y- y- you know.
I made them
Tim Harlow: turn mine back on.
Mike Glenn: Nobody, nobody, nobody calls you. You know what I'm saying? You got nobody for lunch. Right, right. And, you know. [00:36:00] So it's a, it's, it's a brutal reality.
Tim Harlow: Um, b- but the bigger part of that was emotional. Um- Yeah ... uh, i- I mean, is there a way, and then I'm asking this question 'cause I don't think I have an answer, but is there a way to prepare yourself emotionally for stepping away someday?
Michael Easley: We were with, uh, Mike and I were with a group of guys we meet with frequently, and this question came up, and there were three or four of us that have retired- Mm-hmm ... stepped away. And to a man, Tim, to a man, when you're marginalized, when you start talking about transition, you're marginalized immediately.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. You're lame duck, right. And then, and then when you leave, it, it does. I, I remember my, always looked at my Outlook calendar every morning. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know, you have no appointments today. It's like, huh. Oh, wow. It, it, it sounds
Tim Harlow: great.
Michael Easley: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know. It sounded great five years before that.
Yeah. It sounded great. It is great. Yeah. But it's different. Yeah. Right. Um, but, but I would say, you know, th- [00:37:00] this pur- for me, and I don't, I don't think I have it figured out, the purpose is really the question. What's your purpose? Absolutely. Right. And I've always thought in decades. You know, when you're in your 20s, let's say you're married somewhere in your mid, late 20s, you know, your life's ex- exciting, maybe children.
Your 30s, probably have a couple kids, maybe two, three, four. Your life's pretty set. Yeah. Your 40s, you're ch- you're handcuffed. Yeah. Your 40s and 50s, 'cause the overhead, raising children- Absolutely ... activities, sports. College. It's coming and going. All that, yeah. Yeah. And by your 50s, you're looking at the runway going, "This, these are my highest earning years."
Tim Harlow: Mm-hmm. "
Michael Easley: And if this number of 65 or whatever is the number," um, it gets frightening. Mm-hmm. So to your point, um, I tell young pastors, "You need to put 15% of your income away from day one."
Mike Glenn: Right. "
Michael Easley: And you need a good financial planner to help you." Mm-hmm. Right. Because as we know, over time you'll be fine. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. You start in your 40s, it's late. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's really hard to catch up. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we do have too many [00:38:00] friends. I have pastor friends. Oh, yeah. We were in seminary together. They go, he's like, "How are you retiring?" Well, we did these things. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it works. Yeah. Well, they're swimming and, and they'll never retire.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Michael Easley: They're handcuffed. Um, but I think the decades is important. The other thing, I, by the time you're in your 40s and 50s, I may not know what that hobby is- Right ... in those early years. Right. But by your 40s or 50s, you've seen the landscape. Mm-hmm. Howard Hendricks was w- so wonderful in so many ways.
Mm-hmm. And he said, he, he also said, "Gentlemen, narrow your focus." Right. Yeah, that- 'Cause when you're young, you're doing, you know- Yeah ... all these things. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're fly fishing, you're traveling, maybe, you know. And but as you get older, you, you can't do everything. Mm-hmm. So find one that you really wanna do and enjoy.
Right. And you might have to do several, right? Right. Um- Yeah ... ideally with your wife. Boom. Yeah. If you can do something with your wife- Yeah, absolutely ... 'cause i- in God's great kindness, I'll be married with s- with s- to [00:39:00] Cindy before and after children longer than when we raise children.
Tim Harlow: Oh, wow, yeah.
Michael Easley: Right?
Yeah. And, and so that's my partner. And so we are very intentional. It, we love hanging out together. Mm-hmm. We have, we have a great time in God's kindness. But I think- I don't wanna have guys in fear. I want them to have a plan.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Michael Easley: And it's really pretty easy. Mm-hmm. You can't do 15, put 10 in. Yeah. Start somewhere, get a planner.
But then as, as you see what the Lord does in ministry, there's probably a wiring. Um, have y'all done the, um, StoryBrand thing? Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Years ago. Yeah. I went through that- Yeah ... and it was so interesting, and we came up with three adjectives that described me, and I had my oldest daughter involved 'cause I figured she knew me, you know, well.
Right. And I brought a team of about nine people that have known me for 30-plus years, and we took the thing and said, "What do y'all think of this?" You know, kind of murder boarded it. Right, right, yeah. Mm-hmm. And they refined it, and they said, "That's who you are, Michael." And it [00:40:00] was nice to... I, I kinda knew it, but it's like, okay, they've affirmed that.
Right. And now what do I do with those three things- Right ... as I face this chapter? And what
Mike Glenn: do you let go of that's not in those three things? Yeah,
Tim Harlow: yeah. And what do you say no to when people- Yeah ... ask you to do something- Right. Yeah ... that's not in those? That was, that was for me, you know, it was, it was be done and I, it, it was a process to be done.
Mm-hmm. And then I thought I was just gonna kinda wait and see what came up. I had a whole lot of different options, but the, uh, it's been a year and a half now. Um, you know, I'm starting to go back to, "Wait a minute, this is who I am." Right. "This is what breathes life into me- Mm-hmm ... and this doesn't." And, and I'm also in a situation where because, you know, the church took- You got pulled back
good care of me and everything else. Yeah. Well, yeah, I, I, I'm being pulled back into stuff, but I don't have to do what pays the most. Right. You know? That's a beautiful place to be at this point. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I can give of my time or I can [00:41:00] take a gig- Mm-hmm ... that's, you know, not gonna pay that much because I'm in that situation.
Yeah. But even if I wasn't, I would still be planning that way, and I think I, I, if, if, if I tell any, if I'm advising anyone that's following my path, I'm like, "Figure out one thing that you wanna do and go start doing it." Mm-hmm. Start a- Yeah ... a non-profit. A project on the side, right. Start a, a whatever it is- Mm-hmm
that you're doing on the side. And some churches and leaderships are gonna have trouble with that, but I think we need to, we need to grab ahold of what are you, what are you gonna go to, not- Right ... what are you leaving? Right,
Michael Easley: yeah.
Tim Harlow: And for all of us, what you're leaving is a big deal. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michael Easley: Speaking of what the church may or may not have problems with, um, I'm a close attorney friend, and he, he's like broken record on this.
He goes, "Uh, pastors don't have employment agreements." And he goes, "You need to define intellectual property." Yes. Right. Are those your sermons- Right ... or the church sermons? That's true. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if you're working for the church, are you a work for hire? And if so, do those sermons belong to [00:42:00] the church?
Um, and, and, you know, and my- But that's the, that's the default
Mike Glenn: position. That is the default. That it, that, yeah. You gotta fix that if you're gonna- Yeah. Unless- ... write your own books. Yeah, I think
Michael Easley: we'd all r- we'd all encourage them, say, "No, I'm doing this for you. It's not for hire." Yeah. "This is what I do." Yeah.
Um, you know, interesting, when I went from A to B to C, I had some challenges about taking sermons with me. Yeah. Right. And I went back, said, "You're not profiting on these. You're not selling sermon tapes making- Yeah ... thousands of dollars." Yeah. "Why would you care if we use them again somewhere?" Yeah. And they had to bring lawyers involved with it.
Right. Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, Lord." Yeah. Anyway, uh, sorry. Forgive me, Jesus. Um- No, no.
Tim Harlow: That's a, that's a great discussion. Yeah. The other thing- There's a lot of practical stuff like that- The other thing- ... that you need
Michael Easley: to get professional help with ... yes, you need... And the other thing I would say is, and we've different opinions.
I had a, a professor say, "N- never take an honorarium for a wedding or a funeral," and, and I didn't. And occasionally someone's creative and they give you a gift card- Yeah. Yeah ... to go to a restaurant or something. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's not like a, you know, [00:43:00] di- but my friends who, who did take the honorariums, one in particular, any wedding, funeral, conference, he put it aside in a fund and didn't touch it.
Right, right. That's ... My
Tim Harlow: uncle did that. And
Michael Easley: that paid for his kids' college.
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: And I thought that was brilliant. Right. Maybe it's a vacation fund. Right. But you don't go spend it on a dinner- Yes, that's right. That's right ... or curtains- Yeah, yeah ... or a new car. You, you put it aside- It's not petty cash. It's got a purpose
and lea- yeah, and leave it over there. Mm-hmm. And the other thing we did, and I think the Lord really honored it, no matter where the money came from, if it was a conference or something, or a gift- Mm-hmm ... we always gave out of that. Yeah, yeah. We always gave out of it. So if, if we got $1,000 or something, we gave at least 10% right away.
Right. Yeah. Th- we, this wasn't planned. The Lord gave it to us. Yeah. Yeah. It's not mine. It's His. Mm-hmm. I wanna steward it. And, um, I think your, your generosity not only helps you trust the Lord, but it will teach your congregation.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You know? Yeah. So. Yeah. The, the other thing is, you know, we, we talk about what the pastor's gonna do and, and this kinda stuff.[00:44:00]
Jeanne and I have a special needs granddaughter. Mm-hmm. And when I sat down with Jeanne and said, "Okay, what do you wanna do?" Her answer to me was, "I wanna be 10 minutes from Rowan."
Michael Easley: Yep. Huh.
Mike Glenn: Okay. All right. That's what I wanna- That answers a whole lot of questions ... that, that answers, that answers- You're not retiring in Colorado.
Right. Yeah. I'm not retiring in Colorado. Yeah. I'm not gonna go have a house on the beach. Yeah. We're gonna be 10... And so we have intentionally kept our life open. Mm-hmm. Uh, we, we don't travel much. We don't... And, and, and, and, and don't, don't hear this as- It's not a hardship. Not a hardship ... this is not a hardship.
No. It's a choice. No, no. No, no. We're in the same boat. We're- So that whenever Craig and Nan call us- Yeah ... the answer is yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And- And th- and- ... that's what we're supposed to be about ... and that, that, and, and, and, you know, if you say, "Hey, I wanna tell you about-" You know, l- the, you know, Rowan cracking jokes and- Mm-hmm
cutting up and, and we laughed the whole time w- [00:45:00] w- with her and her, her brother Walker and all that. But that became, when she was born and you begin to understand the stress on Craig and Nan- Mm-hmm ... that never goes away.
Michael Easley: Right. Right.
Mike Glenn: You know-
Michael Easley: 24/7 ...
Mike Glenn: f- for him to come over to our house and bring the kids, and for him to fall asleep on the-
on the couch. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I just look at him like, "Okay. Uh, we, don't worry about it. We got the kids." Yeah. "You just-" Yeah ... you know.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. And I guess maybe that could be kind of the close to the thing. Um, you are a child of God.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Tim Harlow: You are a child of God. You are a human being. You are a husband, a wife, uh, you know, a, a, a son, daughter.
I mean, read Mike's book about his journeys with, with his mom. Coffee with Mom. Um, Coffee with Mom is so great. I mean, there's a whole lot to your life- Right ... that is not wrapped up in ministry, and we have, we [00:46:00] have the tendency, uh, you know, to get in this- Everything's ministry ... it's everything's ministry.
You know? And, uh, wait, let me... You know, my kid- Yeah ... did something funny. Let me write that down- Yeah. Yeah ... to make a good sermon illustration. You got, you gotta be who you are, and someday it's gonna be over, and it needs to be over. It needs to be. I, I, it- For the, for the sake
Mike Glenn: of the church it needs to be over For the sake of the church,
Tim Harlow: you need to get out of there- Yeah
and let somebody else do it. So the key thing from that question, I think, was to be planning and preparing- Yeah ... a lot sooner than you thought you were going to, 'cause- Right ... you know, I really didn't. We took care of finances, but thinking ahead just wa- m- m- it di- didn't really matter. A-
Michael Easley: and, and don't stress about it.
Yeah. Don't stress about it. Yeah. It's like anything in life. It's like a mortgage. Yeah. It's just gonna be monthly. Yeah. Ju- just, just get into a rhythm, uh, you know, annually sit with your financial guys and say- Yeah ... "Where are we and where are we..." Uh, I'm shocked at the number of pastors and staff that have no financial plan.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I, I've tried to help them over the years- Yeah ... and they're like, "It's too much. It's too much." Right, right. Like, what are you gonna do, work at Walmart or Costco- Yeah ... when you- Yeah ... I mean, that's- [00:47:00] Pretty much ... not bad. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of- But I don't
Mike Glenn: wanna
Michael Easley: do
Mike Glenn: that. No. I don't wanna have to.
Exactly. If, if I want to work at Costco- Exactly. That's my point ... then that's
Tim Harlow: my... Yeah. Yeah. I can drive Uber if I want to.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Ooh, look at
Tim Harlow: that. And I don't. I know. So we'll close on that note. Thanks for being here with us. Moral of the story, don't drive Uber. Yeah. Right.
Michael Easley: Yeah. Nah. Retirement plan. Lord.
Mike Glenn: Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
