What Is a Catechism (and Why the Church Needs It) | Trevin Wax
Catechisms have been used for centuries to help Christians clearly understand and articulate the core truths of the faith. In this conversation, Mike Glenn sits down with author and editor Trevin Wax to explore what a catechism is, why it has played such an important role in Christian formation throughout church history, and why it may be especially valuable in today’s cultural moment. They discuss how simple question-and-answer statements of doctrine can help believers recognize the difference between the story of the gospel and the narratives shaping the wider culture, while also offering practical ways churches, families, and small groups can use tools like the Gospelway Catechism to strengthen discipleship and theological clarity.
Related Links
-
Mike Glenn: So what's it like publishing a Bible?
Trevin Wax: I mean, it's a little intimidating 'cause you know, people take it seriously.
Yeah. And they're gonna be memorizing out of it. Yeah. But I, there, I think though, I think watching the, that Translation Committee we got everyone together in 2019 and we did a few minor revisions in 2020.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: And watching how that translation committee went about their work, how they listened to pastors and other theologians who had made suggestions and mm-hmm.
And then watching how they wrestled with, you know, certain shifts and changes and stuff was really. It was eyeopening to me and really moving at times. 'cause I thought, man, these people love, they love God. They love the word, but they love the church and they really care. But yeah, it was intimidating to be in the, in those rooms.
'cause I mean, I'm not [00:01:00] like,
Mike Glenn: well, you know, I'm not the Greek scholar. I been in no Greek classes where, where the professor would say this, this,
Trevin Wax: yeah.
Mike Glenn: This word can be translated two different ways. That's right. Absolutely. If you do do this way, it opens up this interpretation. If you do it, do it this way. It,
Trevin Wax: yeah.
And, and, and there's that line. Ens, Shriner used used to say it too. I, he didn't, he's not the first one to say it. But all translation is treachery.
Mike Glenn: Yes.
Trevin Wax: Because there's, and, and you know this, if you're fluent in another language. I mean, I did mission work in Romania for five years. My wife's Romanian, we speak Romanian at home.
I
Mike Glenn: bet that drives your kids nuts, doesn't it?
Trevin Wax: Well, our older two understand us, so we can't, we can't do the whole, we're getting mad. Let's go talk in Romanian thing. We can't do that. Our youngest is a lost cause at this point. But, uh, our, our older two, they get, they understand. But like, but once you're really fluent in another language, you know, that whole translation is, there's no one correct way to
Mike Glenn: Right.
Trevin Wax: To do a translation. You're always making [00:02:00] choices. Mm-hmm. And there's no one. Exact a hundred percent correlation of the words, another words. No, you're
Mike Glenn: always, you're always getting the close as you can.
Trevin Wax: You're in a conceptual world. Mm-hmm. And you have to make those calls. It's tough.
Mike Glenn: And not only that, but the word meanings change That's right.
Over, over, over generation and all that. For sure. So what was translated accurately 50 years ago is now inaccurate.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. Uh,
Mike Glenn: according
Trevin Wax: or misleading,
Mike Glenn: almost mislead,
Trevin Wax: because it doesn't mean it doesn't have the same connotation. Yeah. It's like, you know, John, that, that's the John three 16 thing. For God so loved the world
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: For years, you know, meant God loved the world in this way. Mm-hmm. Which is the way that the Greek is, but now it's, now we hear that though, and now we think God loved the world so much.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Trevin Wax: That's not the way King James people would've heard it.
Mike Glenn: No.
Trevin Wax: They would've heard it closer to that original Greek meeting.
Mm-hmm. So, so yeah.
Mike Glenn: Where did your love for language and text and because the, the whole time I have known you, you've been an editor,
Trevin Wax: writer,
Mike Glenn: publisher, writer.
Trevin Wax: [00:03:00] Yeah, ever since I was a kid, my mom tells me that I came back from the first day of kindergarten and I slammed my little red panda backpack on the, on the, I was four years old, and she said I was mad.
She's like, how was your first day at school? I went to school and I still don't know how to read.
Mike Glenn: I was there a whole day.
Trevin Wax: I was there a whole day. I thought I could now read all the signs, you know, like I was, I don't know. She just said I was fascinated with like trying to like, when I was like three and four already, trying to like decipher and read and so I think I've always had that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: It's always been in my a thing.
Mike Glenn: Well, you and I are here today to talk about a project that you and our friend Thomas West, joins you on a catechism of discipleship. Am I wrong in that when you guys were reading this text or putting this text together, I almost sensed some kind of frustration between the two of you.
Like it [00:04:00] was Target, this is how you do it, right? Open this page. This do this first.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And go through it. Did I miss? Did I misread that? Or, or,
Trevin Wax: uh, I don't know that I'd say,
Mike Glenn: or just, just my own.
Trevin Wax: I, I don't know that I'd say it was frustration. It, it's, it's more of a I, I think it was more like we felt like we, we need to meet the challenge of our times.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: And we, we need more good tools to aid in discipleship and. There are some good tools out there, but the kind of the, the kind of tools we need right now are those that don't only lay out the basics of the Christian faith, but do so in a way that push against the cultural narratives that are most dominant in our society today, and that do so pretty explicitly.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: And so if there's frustration at times, it comes from. [00:05:00] People often who will, who will kind of know a certain doctrine, but they don't know how it actually counters.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Trevin Wax: The world's doctrines that they're getting in the sort of catechism you get to the music, you listen to the movies, you watch all the other stuff.
Mm-hmm. So I think it really, if there's a pastoral frustration, it's more of trying to rise to a pastoral challenge of our day and age in, in how we do discipleship.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. That was what I told parents when I was a student minister. I can't undo in a couple hours a week, what you do 24 7.
Trevin Wax: That's right.
Mike Glenn: And it we're discipled by what we, what, whatever we pay attention to.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And sadly, for a lot of our friends, that's cable news.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Of whatever brand. And that's their worldview. And that's, and they have never sat down and talked about or thought out what it means. In the school of Ministry that we're starting. The first thing, the first par course is [00:06:00] everyone's a theologian.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And whether you like it or not, you have a theology, and whether you realize it or not, you're making decisions based on that theology. So let's at least take the time as we begin this journey to talk about who God is, who we are, and His what, his kingdom plan is, what that means.
Trevin Wax: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Kind of basic kind of thing that if you don't, if you're not intentional about it, then you end up making a lot of decisions unintentionally, which,
Trevin Wax: and you wind up doing, there's always the danger and every, every age of the church has to deal with this.
But you have syncretism,
Mike Glenn: right?
Trevin Wax: Is always the danger. Mm-hmm. You know, you're gonna cobble together. This biblical truth, but you might be putting it in a framework of this other story, right. You're living in mm-hmm. So, you know, and a lot of people, they come to church, um, God bless 'em, they're in church, but they come to church because they [00:07:00] think the church is gonna help them be moral, be the better person that they want to be, you know, make, make connections for business.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mean there's all reasons why, all sorts of reasons why people come to church. And I'd rather them be in church than not be in church. But at the end of the day, to do real discipleship, we've got to not only say, here's what the Bible says, but here's what the Bible says and how it's over against what you've heard the world say.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Trevin Wax: If you don't do that second part, you, you wind up people just sort of remix. You know, and they sort of mix and match the parts of Christianity match and
Mike Glenn: Americans are famous for this.
Trevin Wax: Oh.
Mike Glenn: Because we're,
Trevin Wax: we do it really well. We're
Mike Glenn: so, we're so practical Yeah. In our thinking. It just has to work.
Trevin Wax: Right.
Mike Glenn: So if our, if our theology's a little bit Jesus and a little bit Hindu and a little bit Buddhist, then okay, that works for me and I'm good.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. It's kind of like piece your own spirituality together. Right. And, and I think what, what, what we want where, where we're wanting to. Really [00:08:00] lean in on this discipleship area is to say we gotta get back behind some of these cultural stories that people are living according to.
Mm-hmm. These narratives. Tim Keller was a big influence for us on this. Keller used to say in that like, the last decade
Mike Glenn: of his life, the late pastor of, uh,
Trevin Wax: Redeemer Redeemer
Mike Glenn: Church
Trevin Wax: in New York. New York City. Yeah. He, he, he would often say, if you look back at the history of catechism. All catechism is counter catechism in that the, even in the Protestant ones, ah, you know, catechisms that came up, that laid out the basics of the Christian faith in this question and answer format.
They were generally, those classic Protestant catechisms were pushing against the medieval Roman Catholic,
Mike Glenn: right.
Trevin Wax: Excesses of the time. Mm-hmm. You know, and so that's how they were structured. That's what they were, that's what they were saying, was like, Hey, this is, this is Protestantism over against, you know, these other things.
But they're all, they're, they have that counter-cultural element of the time. Well, [00:09:00] today, the main thing that we're dealing with in a secularizing society, you know, that, that says be true to yourself is the most important thing in life.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: You've got. Gender ideologies, what is a human being? It's not even mm-hmm.
We don't even have an agreement culturally on what is a human being, you know what does it mean to be male and female? Like the, the way the things you're gonna have to counter are, are different culturally.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: Uh, than they were back in the era of the classic catechism. So, so a good catechism is always doing it.
Kind of a counter. It's gonna an counter, but, but we felt like, well, we need, we need something that does that a little more explicitly for our, our time.
Mike Glenn: Okay. So we're, we're talking about pastors, church leaders. Let's, let's not assume that everybody's is with us on here, at least in, in my, if, if I'm grew up, grew up in Alabama and all that, I hear catechism.
No, you're not gonna catechism me.
Trevin Wax: Right, right.
Mike Glenn: Okay. So, so yeah, that's something that those other religions do.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And uh, and, and, and my [00:10:00] mom, when she said, don't date outside your religion, she meant, don't date anybody who's not a Baptist.
Trevin Wax: You don't go to the Church of Christ.
Mike Glenn: No. No, Lord. Don't go no Presbyterian.
Yeah, that's right. That was what my mom meant. Now when I told my boys, don't date outside your faith. A nice Presbyterian Methodist would, would've, would've, would've been fine. So,
Trevin Wax: yeah,
Mike Glenn: so, so let's, let's not assume here what is the catechism? Yeah. And why is it important?
Trevin Wax: Well. The cool thing is the Baptists have catechisms.
We have Oh yeah. From the beginning. Yeah. So if you go back to our Baptist history, you're not really giving up anything. It's kind of fell out of favor for a while, I think. 'cause you know, and there is a way of, you can do something really ritualistically or
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: Can get into like, just rote. All that matters is you get the answer right.
It doesn't really matter if you really even internalized. Mm-hmm. You know, there's always that danger of anything that's more like formal. But the, but that word is like really is, is kind of a scary word for some people, but it really just means. It's a, it's a fancy word that's actually referring to a very [00:11:00] simple concept.
It's meant to be a simplified version of the Christian faith.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: That lays out the basics of Christian doctrine in a question and answer format.
Mike Glenn: So why did you call it cliff notes? Cliff?
Trevin Wax: Yeah. That's because most people don't memorize Cliff notes. That's why that the, the, the, the, the tool goes way back to like even the ancient, ancient church.
Like you'd,
Mike Glenn: before there was reading
Trevin Wax: Yes. Before people would get baptized.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: They wanted, you know, as people were coming into the church in some of the early centuries of the church, they would want, they called them catechumens. They basically met mm-hmm. These are the people that are going through a catechism process.
I started hearing the word more in Baptist circles when I did my mission work in Romania. Ah, because that was, that was a they, they would talk, they. As they were preparing people for baptism, they'd usually do like a huge baptism service.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: Like, it wasn't a baptism every week, it was like a service with like, you know, 15, 20 people getting baptized.
And it would be like, they all gave their testimonies and it was this massive [00:12:00] celebration thing. Mm-hmm. They had a, they picked the hymn, they wanted sung right after their baptism, is that kind of thing. And but in that process, like leading up to the baptism, they would go through a couple of months of just.
They called it catechism. Mm-hmm. Which it was basically just training. Hey, here's what you're, you know, it's what you're confessing. Here's
Mike Glenn: commitment you're
Trevin Wax: making. Yeah. Yeah. It's a commitment. Mm-hmm. Commitment you're making. You don't, there's kind of a, a lull in the whole catechism thing until the Reformation era.
Then they like explodes again. Mm-hmm. And you've got like, you know, Calvin and Geneva, Luther, and, you know Germany. I mean, they're all creating these catechism. You have Swiss versions and all that kind of. Popping up all over the place. And the Baptists did it too. I mean, Spurgeon rep famously repurposed a catechism that had also been in, there's, you know, an old Baptist Benjamin Keach had a catechism.
Mm-hmm. And so there's all these, and they're all borrowing from each other. It's not like they're presenting some brand as Baptist
Mike Glenn: preachers do.
Trevin Wax: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, we're borrowing from the Bible. Right? Yeah. So, you know, but the, [00:13:00] it's, it's really just an ancient discipleship tool. It's, it's.
How do I get into bite-sized chunks that are like, you know, potent answers that have mm-hmm. Every word is matters and is packed with meaning in a way that's memorizable. So it's like, it's a little bit of a flow to it. Michael Card actually gave us some suggestions on the styling for this, you know, the singer songwriter, which was good 'cause we, we needed help, not just in the, you know, putting the catechism together, but also in, Hey, does this sound good?
Mike Glenn: That's right. Yeah.
Trevin Wax: Because there's ear. You gotta have a ear
Mike Glenn: for it. Does it flow off the tongue? It is stayed
Trevin Wax: because you want people to learn it.
Mike Glenn: Okay, so catechism is the ancient F formation.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And a shortened version. Version. It's a of the tool's. But if I'm hearing you right, we've rediscovered it. Or, or, or, or reemphasized it because we live in a world with an eight second attention span.
Trevin Wax: Right. Yes. And that's part of the challenge here is that we're [00:14:00] not a world that memorizes as much.
Mike Glenn: Why shouldn't I? I can Google it.
Trevin Wax: I can Google everything.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Trevin Wax: But you'd be surprised at how much stuff we do still memorize.
Mike Glenn: Oh yeah.
Trevin Wax: Without realizing it. Yeah. I, uh, I mean, people know everywhere. Like you watch people at a concert,
Mike Glenn: oh gosh, yeah.
Trevin Wax: Who know every single word of whatever it is. Like, especially in that man, there's that. 10 to age. 10 to 20 or something. The music, the I and I tell people like the music you listened to when you were 16 years old and you knew by heart
You never lose it.
Mike Glenn: you never
Trevin Wax: lose it, even if you want to.
Yeah. You know, like it is there. So I just think we sell ourselves short a bit if we think that there's not a place for this kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Where you're really, really digging in to. Good, solid questions and answers. For some people new to the faith, this is gonna be like crash course in Christianity.
Mike Glenn: Right?
Trevin Wax: 50 basic questions and answers covering the, you know, from mm-hmm. You know, the basics of the faith for people that have been in [00:15:00] Christian for a long time. This'll be like a tuneup kind of thing. Right? And we've already heard from people saying. Man, I like this. This answer really challenged me. I think I've, like, I bought into some of these things I hear out in the culture.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Trevin Wax: I didn't even realize it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. What, what I liked about it is, ah, that is well said.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: That is,
Trevin Wax: that's the goal.
Mike Glenn: That is, that is, I'm gonna remember that sentence,
Trevin Wax: right,
Mike Glenn: because I have, I have fumbled this answer before.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: These guys, uh, got it. Right. So how, how do we best use this tool in our churches?
Trevin Wax: So number of ways if you're looking to implement it in kids' ministry, we've got a kid's version coming out
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: In 2026 that we're excited about. This, what we've put together, we really wanted older students and adults. Mm-hmm. For, for this first one, uh, the kids' versions even more simplified.
It's just, you know, even if we already took like, you know, Snickers bar, we do the snack size snicker bar for, for the, for the kids for next [00:16:00] year. It's been fun to watch churches already doing stuff with it. So some are using it in their student ministry, they're doing it one a week, you know? Right. And they're like, Hey, memorizing it.
Talking about it. There's discussion questions with it, talking about the commentary. There's a workbook that goes with it. So we're seeing that, we're seeing some pastors say, Hey, we're, we're actually, we're actually reading out the question and having the church respond with the answer on Sunday mornings during the service.
Like at one little point in between songs. Yeah. Right. They're just like. Here's our catechism question. Mm-hmm. You know, back and forth. We're, we're seeing small groups that are using it, right? Makes sense. Some that are doing one a week that makes sense. And some that are like concentrating it. And we're doing, we're doing all of them in seven weeks, you know, that kind of thing.
We're going through one unit at a time, which, that's a little much, but if you've got a group of, you know. Fairly mature Christians that are just, that want to just get a, a tune up kind of thing, could totally see that working. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I do, and, and we're seeing some situations where it's in family discipleship.
Mm-hmm. Like, I'm already hearing from, from [00:17:00] parents doing it with their teenagers. Right. They're like, Hey, we're doing this every, every day we're doing another one.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: And we're kind of going through and we're talking about it. It's, it's starting some great conversations. So that, that's been the main way that we've seen people using it.
Mike Glenn: When you're putting this together and you're dealing with all of these great truths of, of, of, of the faith, mo, all of them, you know, and you have dealt with in, in some form in your career, your ministry often, which, which was the moment that, uh, that caught you, that that's. Surprised you or brought you to worship or a new understanding?
Trevin Wax: Yeah. There, there were, there were a bunch of those actually. But I, I think when we, I think the, the, the questions and answers we did about Jesus.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: Um, those were, those were ones that, that hit us hard while we were working on them, because the world has its conception of who Jesus is. [00:18:00] And the real Jesus is just so much better.
He's so much better than, than what's kind of on offer and even frankly, what's on offer sometimes and sort of the overly palatable verses of Jesus sometimes even the church puts it,
Mike Glenn: right. Yeah.
Trevin Wax: He's so much more majestic and ferocious in his love. Mm-hmm. Like that. He's like, we reduce him, we reduce him.
We, and so, so when we, when we talk about Jesus, I mean, we have one question, who is the Son of God? And it talks about Jesus. And then later we talk about Jesus. We have one about his life, who, his identity and life, and then his death, and then his resurrection. And then we have his ascension. And each one of those is just filling out this, this picture that really does make him the center of everything.
Mm-hmm. So, so I think about that. I think about those in particular. But there, I mean, there's some others too. Like we have some, we have some questions that are not in your traditional catechism.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: Like a question, like what is [00:19:00] freedom?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Trevin Wax: That doesn't show up in a traditional catechism, but in our day and age,
Mike Glenn: it wouldn't have to be.
Yeah.
Trevin Wax: People have all kinds of view of what freedom is. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't line up with what scripture teaches freedom is. So you have to kind of, you have to undo some of the, the, the worldly story around some of these things.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: And so, yeah. But it's, uh, there's a. There's a worshipful element to the whole process.
Thomas and I worked on it for really two years week after week, testing it in a local church environment. And it, you know, we, there were times when we would get to the end of one of 'em. It would just be like we were thankful that we felt like it was well said. We got good feedback from people. There were times when we'd go back over them when we were refining them after friends and other theologians and other people were speaking into it, and we'd come across one and we got it.
You just get it to a point and you're just like, it's beautifully said. And where it moves the heart, not just that.
Mike Glenn: Right, right. Yeah.
Trevin Wax: That's what we were going for.
Mike Glenn: Well, I think you've done it. It is a great a [00:20:00] great resource that I would encourage all of our pastors and churches to be part of.
What's the best way to get hold of it?
Trevin Wax: Well, you can go to gospel way catechism.com and you can see there's a site there. Eventually the kids' catechism will be on there too. Okay. But, um, and you can, and you could get a link to all the places it sold. I mean, basically any bookstore, any anyone selling resources will, you'll, you'll be able to find it.
But, um, harvest House is a publisher of this. Mm-hmm. They've been really helpful. If there's pastors looking at this as potentially in, you know, implementing in their church, they wanna sample or something. I mean, there's ways to get in contact with them and they'll. No, they, they really wanna bless pastors Yeah.
With, with this. 'cause they know that's Thomas and I, uh, it's our heart too mm-hmm. Is to really bless the church.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. It's, it's interesting that as, as you know, coming in this morning, I'm, I'm listening about, uh, AI mm-hmm. And the companies he stuff and all the challenges we're facing with the pushing in of culture.
But the answer is [00:21:00] going way back. To the foundation and to the basic basics
Trevin Wax: that's right.
Mike Glenn: Of, uh, of our faith and, and what we believe.
Trevin Wax: This isn't gonna change.
Mike Glenn: No, this not.
Trevin Wax: That's what I, I mean, I, and I, I tell people like this, 'cause I think sometimes pastors, uh, it's, it's so easy right now to feel just like thrown off.
Yeah. The cultural moment, the vibe shifts in this way and that way, and all like, just trying to figure out like, what, where, where are we supposed to be? And whenever things are crazy and chaotic
Mike Glenn: mm-hmm.
Trevin Wax: I'm always like. Then go back to the basics.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Who, who was it that said, uh, he felt all kind of pressure to, to jazz up Easter.
Trevin Wax: Yeah. It's jazzy enough.
Mike Glenn: How do I say something new and creative about, about Easter
Trevin Wax: Christmas
Mike Glenn: too.
Trevin Wax: That's,
Mike Glenn: it's kind of
kind,
Trevin Wax: it's like, no, when people want to hear that old, old story. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: That's
Trevin Wax: why I'm here. If they're gonna church on Christmas and Easter
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Till we,
Trevin Wax: you better give them that. Like, you don't have to have the fancy.
I'm preaching from this strange passage to make a connection like it's [00:22:00] Uhuh is
Mike Glenn: don't have to be creative there. It's creative.
Trevin Wax: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: It's, it is more creative than you could ever be. That's absolutely right in that moment.
Trevin Wax: Absolutely
Mike Glenn: right. Well, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. And, uh, any way we could help in this project.
We certainly want, want to do that. He's Trevor Wax. He and our friend Thomas West had put together. Gospel Gospel
Trevin Wax: Way catechism,
Mike Glenn: gospel way, catechism. And it is available wherever books are sold. And on gospel way catechism.com. I'm Mike Glenn and this is the Engaged Church Network Podcast. Do us a favor on your way out, and hit like, hit subscribe and we'll see you next time.
