What if Sunday Service Isn't the Point?
In this episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Mike Glenn, President of Engage Church Network, sits down with longtime friend and former colleague Chris Brooks. Chris shares his journey from leading a successful young adult ministry at Brentwood Baptist Church to pioneering a local micro church movement focused on real-life discipleship, hospitality, and spiritual family. Together, they explore the limitations of institutional church models, the impact of COVID on ministry, and the power of simplicity in disciple-making.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, I am Mike Glenn and I am the president of the Engaged Church Network and we welcome you to our podcast. Uh, joining me today is a very good friend and I'm very excited, uh, about the conversation we're about to have for a lot of reasons. Chris Brooks grew up in Pennsylvania, uh, went to college in Florida, ended up working with student life, uh, and Alabama.
And from there. Became a great, uh, Alabama Crimson Tide fan. Roll tide. Roll tide. There we go. We just isolated
Chris Brooks: 90% of your That's right. That's right. That's right. Don't hold that against
Mike Glenn: us. Uh, and and from that moment on, uh, Chris and I have instantly bonded mm-hmm. Over our, [00:01:00] our, our shared history and tradition.
Mm-hmm. Um, Chris and I worked together on the staff of Brentwood Baptist Church for several years, and it was during that time that God began to refine. Uh, the calling in Chris's life and refine how that calling would be expressed. Uh, the good thing for me is I got to be, uh, on a ringside seat, see how that happened and see how his ministry has developed.
Uh, he has gone from being part of a megachurch to now leading a house church movement in our area. It's a fascinating journey, and this is something we all can, uh, learn from. I'm very eager for this conversation. Uh, Chris, welcome. Thank you. Thank you, uh, for being here. I trust your family is all. Well, they are.
And, uh, from, uh, from your introductory stuff, uh, it, it, it, I've made a mistake by calling you. I should have called your wife Aubrey. Absolutely. Audrey. Audrey. There it is. And, uh, um. I, [00:02:00] I come to her name and go 50 50 and I always choose the wrong one. That's alright. Lets call her Mrs. Brooks. Mrs. Brooks, uh, I, I should have talked to Audrey.
Yes. And, uh, had her, because according to you, she's the real minister in, uh, uh, in, in your family. Let's, let's go back to the time that we were on staff together and you were, you were leading Kairos. Mm-hmm. Uh, which was the young adult expression of, of our worship and discipleship, uh, uh, ministry. But I began to see, uh, some, some discomfort, some, some dis-ease, uh, in, uh, in, in what you were doing and, and how you were seeing yourself.
I'm not even sure you understood it. Uh, when it started. Yeah. Uh, so, so let's go back and talk about that disconnect that was happening within you.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. Well, I think, uh. It is interesting because Kairos was like a gift from God. Uh, [00:03:00] midweek worship service for 20 somethings. Staff budget, like, just was so grateful for Brentwood Baptist investment in that generation who is somewhat disconnected from institutional church.
Um, and you started that ministry. What an incredible inroad we had to the next generation. I think also being around their disease, around, uh, institutional church. How does, how does a corporate expression look for us? But I think more and more, uh, I love making disciples. That make disciples, um, and trying to take a step back and saying, is this the best expressions of my gifts and personality and my season of life?
And is it working
Mike Glenn: okay, now let me, yeah, let me. The, the church institutional order of church would've said yes.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Because anybody in Brentwood Baptist Church, uh, [00:04:00] would say, Mike, you're free to go anywhere you want to go. Anytime you want to go, as long as Chris is gonna fill in while you're gone. That's great.
Uh, so, so you had the platform, the respect, the invitation from our church to continue in that traditional role. Absolutely. Was, and I that was a great honor. Um, but what I want, but what I want people Sure. To understand this, you didn't flunk correct institutional church. Absolutely. Uh, you were doing it and doing it really well.
Chris Brooks: Yeah, and uh, I definitely, I think because of my gift and skillset at preaching and teaching, I could gather a crowd. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't necessarily know that gathering a crowd is producing disciples at the end of the day. A different question. Yeah. Um, and again, Willard says, uh, every church has to ask theirselves two questions.
Um, what's our disciple making plan and is it working? [00:05:00] And here's the little known secret for those of us who are pastors, uh, at churches, is that 80% of our time, energy, and resources go on to pulling off a one hour service. That I would say is. I'm gonna be careful here 'cause let me, let me qualify this. I believe the church is beautiful in all of her expressions.
I am not married to a model. I'm married to a mission, which is to make disciples that make disciples. But I do think, uh, we have
Mike Glenn: now while, but, but just for clarification, you and I would agree that that one hour, that worship experience is a. Part, part, an aspect of discipleship enhance, yes. A hundred, the discipleship.
Right. But we can't call that discipleship.
Chris Brooks: No. And I think naturally what happens is it, it takes on a gravitational force, uh, of its own and, uh, does. Our whole hope is, hey, come to this gathering and we [00:06:00] hope you get plugged into a small group where life on life discipleship can happen. Um, and so I remember coming up to you, um, when all this was stirring and saying, Hey, I wanna plant a church.
And you said, great. And I said, I wanna start by making disciples and see if we can't get a church, not start a church and hope we get disciples. So I think that's, that's the question that all of us are wrestling with. Can I tell a quick story? Sure. So the, I think the impetus came in the middle of COVID.
We're doing a online staff meeting. I'm locked away in my office 'cause my kids are in online school. And we've talked about this. You said it great. COVID didn't create a problem for the church. It exposed the problem. It revealed it sure did. Right? Mm-hmm. And Alan Hirsch says it this way. If you wanna learn how to play chess, take the queen off the board.
If you wanna learn how to make disciples, take the Sunday morning service off the board. Which is our queen, so to speak. So I get done a meeting and uh, just super frustrated with [00:07:00] doubling down on all the things that we were doing and just calling it a digital strategy. And I'm reading a autobiography of Bruce Lee.
I. Karate Guy, guru, um, he was a little bit Church of Jesus, Bruce Lee. Here it comes. Uh, the punchline to this is what you would call this is zero basing. Um, sometimes I need a narrative and a story rather than a business philosophy to make the connection. He was uh uh, in Hong Kong, a little bit of a hood.
Hoodlum got in a lot of street fights. His parents put him in martial arts training. No surprise, he excels 18 years old. He gets in another street fight and the police call his dad and say, Hey, we're coming to arrest Bruce in the morning. So he does what any good parent would do is he puts $200 in his pocket and sends him to America.
He had dual citizenship. Bruce gets to America and says, I experienced an intoxicating freedom. To think differently, teach differently, and he knew a little secret that most martial arts experts did not want to get out. And that's [00:08:00] this, most of the forms, functions, disciplines and rules that govern certain disciplines of martial arts.
Bear little to no significance in a real life street fight. Right? So he decided to create his own way or the way of, no way. And he decided I'm not, I'm gonna teach whoever I want, regardless of their gender or race. Also big, no, no, from his culture. And that was it. Lightning moment. What would it look like?
If we zero based everything and just said, how can we do discipleship in a way for real people with real jobs, with real commitments and real problems so that it makes a real difference in their life? Get rid of all the form structures, assumptions, traditions, and strategies, and equip people for their everyday life
Mike Glenn: that have served us well to this point,
Chris Brooks: 100% yes, but
Mike Glenn: no longer serve us well.
Yes. And the future. Okay. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: And, uh, I forget who says it. Yesterday's solutions are today's problems. Mm-hmm. So I'm not, [00:09:00] I don't think I'm any more a cocky 20-year-old pissing vinegar. I'm gonna plant a church the real way. Yeah. Or here's how the Bible says. Yeah. Now, I, I am genuinely interested in what would make the gospel good news to my neighbor.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now this was happening, um. While you were working out with a bunch of guys, if I, if I'm mind, who serves me correctly? Yeah, that's right. And it's from their conversations and their desire to be discipled.
Chris Brooks: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But being unable to fit in this form.
Chris Brooks: Yes, correct. Thanks for remembering that. Um, uh, part of that was I was looking at my job as a minister and realizing I was not around, lost people on a consistent basis or on a friendship basis.
Right. 'cause you had a job to do and that job was
Mike Glenn: inside the church. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: I'm a professional Christian. Right. Uh, so went to a gym, found some friends that were outside of my existing relational circle, and then started discipling some of these guys in my free time and we're sitting [00:10:00] around my fire pit and we're talking and I'm realizing I want to do more of this.
Mm-hmm. If I can make this, the bulk of my job, discipling people in a group living life, laughing, crying, and finding those in real time, to use your language, those moments when God is speaking or stirring and be able to pastor them through it, uh, that led to, man, I, I think I need to make a change. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: But you did this in context of an, of a, of a real life conversation where. You were also being discipled by this trainer guy. You were, you were discipling Uhhuh. Yeah. Because, because I remember during that time, all of a sudden you show up cut. Yeah. You know? Yeah. You know, dancing Johnson, reading algae and yeah, it was incredible.
It was delightful and, and that kind of stuff, but, but it was in that one-on-one. Yep. I'm gonna give you something of value. Yes. And, and, and take something of value from you. And then its mutual bonding.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: Came the discipleship.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. [00:11:00] Agreed. And I think too, uh, we gotta be careful, especially for those of us as pastors, we are always usually in a relationship dynamic where we are in the position of authority.
Right.
Chris Brooks: And we're the ones giving.
Right?
Chris Brooks: And so something that's incredibly valuable to people is you going under their authority and saying, can I receive from something from you? Right. Yeah. Which gives them dignity.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Most of the time we don't listen, we wait to talk.
Chris Brooks: Mercy
Mike Glenn: and, uh, and, and to be and to, and to come under somebody else's authority.
Yeah. In a gym setting or something like that. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: Or just to have a genuine, compassionate curiosity. Yeah. And for me to realize, um, so Bob Weber's, one of the guys in our micro church, uh, he's a registered nurse at a va. I need to be intensely interested in his job. Mm-hmm. Hey, what are the challenges?
What's this like? What's it like working with the Medicare? What are vets like? Mm-hmm. So getting up in their world and expressing interest. Not just going, Hey, meet me here. And [00:12:00] then we're gonna talk about all the things I'm passionate about,
Mike Glenn: validating the ministry that we always say that they have.
Correct. But it's never been really validated in their own life.
Chris Brooks: And here's what I heard recently, I thought was great, if your life is your ministry, how's the health of your ministry? Mm-hmm. So if you look out in your church. All those people have a life. Mm-hmm. How's the health of their ministry? Right?
Yeah. And they're going to reach people you'll never reach,
Mike Glenn: never
Chris Brooks: touch, never,
Mike Glenn: never
Chris Brooks: touch. Like when I'm equipping ordinary people. Yeah. Uh, to. Create extended spiritual families in their community. I just don't feel qualified. I was having lunch with Brett with just the other day with some, uh, leaders who are gonna step up and become micro church leaders and they're like, well, I don't know.
We have a, this, this or this, or whatever. I said, we've been sitting here for 30 minutes. Five people have stopped by.
Yeah.
Chris Brooks: And called you by name. You've made a connection with them. Mm-hmm. Look at me. Those guys aren't coming near me with a 10 foot pole.
Mike Glenn: People come to me and say, Hey, we, I'm doing a group, want you to come lead it.
And I'll say, no. No. [00:13:00] God did not give me that itch. He gave it to you? Yeah. He burdened you with these people? Yeah. Not me. I mean, I've got my own, uh, that, that I stay up at, at, at night and pray about. But this is your gift. Yeah. If God wants to do something in you and through you. In the context of this group,
Chris Brooks: I, I'll say it this way, uh, someone demonstrated this to me, and this I think was probably the itch that you saw me processing in real time for five years.
As we look at the life and ministry of Jesus, um, he, he's got time constraints, right? Mm-hmm. So you read through the gospels and he ministers to the multitudes, the crowds, the 70 and then the 12, and then the three. And if you look at the majority of the time that he spent on Planet Earth with the three and the 12, it was the three, the 12, then the 72, then the crowds and the multitudes.
And what I'm concerned about is that the American church has inverted that, right? The majority of my time goes to the crowds and multitudes. [00:14:00] Then I need to develop a leadership team and volunteers to help do that, to reinforce the, the crowd
Mike Glenn: management, right?
Chris Brooks: And then I'll have 12, maybe I'll call that a A board and then.
Am I intentionally investing in three people? Mm-hmm. That get the lion's share of who I am so that they can go and do likewise.
Mike Glenn: The church back in the sixties wanted to professionalize the ministry, so we encourage pastors, and this is a real thing. I mean, you can go back and Yep. We encourage pastors to carry briefcases.
You could go to a conference where they would teach you how to dress. Oh, I mean, yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm serious. Yeah. Part of that was the organizational management that we took from corporations. Yep. And so now when you go to a church, they will have the triangle. Yep. With the pastor at the top. Okay. Biblical leadership is that triangle inverted with the pastor at the bottom.
A hundred percent. Who then ministers to 2, [00:15:00] 3, 12. Yep. Develops those leaders who then express it out into the communities. And the ministry is done out here. Not by the point agreed of the pyramid. And
Chris Brooks: I, I wasn't alive in the sixties, but, uh, I probably had a, I probably attended a church. Appreciate that.
That didn't mean it that way. You know that I probably had a church that was trapped in the sixties that I grew up in, and they needed some core competencies around how to run a nonprofit. Right. Great. Get it. But at some point we adopted Strange Fire, right? Which is here's business practices. Exactly.
Right. That directly contradict Exactly
right. Right.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. So be biblically based and business informed, not business based. Yeah. And biblically informed. Well, all
Mike Glenn: truth is God's truth. Yeah. So, you know, we, we can, we can take and use as, as the spirit leads, but we do not, you cannot run the church as you do a business.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. And I, I think, uh, I assume most of your listeners are starting to feel [00:16:00] the vice grip of. The model is losing traction financially, culturally, and spiritually. Uh, it, the Sunday morning gathering used to be the celebration of what was happening during the week. Now it's the substitute, right? And I believe most pastors having an unfair burden and pressure that's placed on their 30 to 45 minutes to speak.
And assume you can say everything and that's gonna,
Mike Glenn: and, and that's gonna change
Chris Brooks: the world. Yeah. I, I'm overvaluing what I think I'm saying. Mm-hmm. And you are undervaluing it usually. Right.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Let, let's, and
Chris Brooks: I love
Mike Glenn: preaching. Let's stop. Um, and, um, and, and, and, and speak to our friends just momentarily because you've walked this walk mm-hmm.
Uh, you leave an established position. Uh, health insurance, da, da, da, da, you know, retirement, da da [00:17:00] da da. And you step out into no, nothing, nothing. No guaranteed income. Nothing. Yep. And you and Audrey are talking. Are we gonna make it?
Chris Brooks: Yeah,
Mike Glenn: a hundred percent. Okay.
Chris Brooks: Now talking's a loose term.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Chris Brooks: Somebody's yelling and somebody's in the corner sucking his thumb. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Uh, what have you done to our family that guess? So, um, talk to me about what you learned about the faithfulness of God.
Chris Brooks: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Oh my gosh. And what you learned about you.
Chris Brooks: Yes, sir. And you, and, and, and how are you gonna do this ministry?
Yeah, man. Uh, I'll say this. I think a lot of us, I'm 51. In our aging stage in our ministry, whether we admit it or not, we think it should be smooth sailing into our seventies. Mm-hmm. I put in my time, my energy, my effort, finally. Okay. Mm-hmm. Now I start doing this and, uh, I don't ever want to, [00:18:00] I don't ever wanna lose.
When the Lord calls, I respond regardless of the cost. I could do that easier in my twenties 'cause I had less to lose. Mm-hmm. Um, I also wanna say this, for those of you who are listening, if, if you're opened up to a different way of doing church and ministry, uh, that doesn't necessarily mean it's you. You may be equipping and giving permission there.
There you go. Because there's, and I did. Yeah. There's people like me Yeah. Who are just dying for someone to say, go give it a shot buddy. Right. And that's exactly what my church did for me. There was a lot of questions. I don't know what that looks like, how you're gonna support yourself, uh, is there enough room in people's house for you, but we're gonna support you so.
We would not be where we're at without Mother Institutional Church. Mm-hmm. Investing in different expressions, uh, that'll make a difference for people. So yeah, the Lord went, lights out, um, and. I will say this, usually when you step out into a new work and decide to get serious about making disciples all hell breaks loose [00:19:00] in your life.
That's right.
Mike Glenn: I tell people when you're start doing something good for Jesus, Jesus is not the only one who notices.
Chris Brooks: And I had to have someone say, take that as confirmation.
Mike Glenn: Exactly right.
Chris Brooks: I mean, trees falling on my house. Uh, cars exploding. Like just you're like, what are we doing?
Mike Glenn: I don't remember.
Chris Brooks: Like I had a buddy who said, who was trying to, just to complain and I think I really wanted some pity of like, Hey, feel sorry for me.
I'm following the Lord. He said they, there's a World War II documentary on bombers over Germany, and they said they would shut off all the power. And he says, well, how did you know where to drop your bombs if you couldn't see your target? Yeah. And he said When the enemy fire was the most intense.
Yeah.
Chris Brooks: We knew we were on target.
Yeah. Okay. And I want to be a trustworthy servant in the kingdom of God. Yeah. And I, I, I think the Lord wants to see Chris, can you persevere? Can you, can you face the challenges? Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And, and you know, the reward for good work. More work. [00:20:00] You survived this level of testing. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go, let's, let's, let's, yeah.
And up a notch
Chris Brooks: in my character and my confidence, I want to keep leveling up. Mm-hmm. I, I don't ever want to get to that place where I think, oh, okay. I'm good. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Okay. You go start a house, church. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: Okay. Now for us, Hey, can I interrupt you? Sure. Um, I would call it a micro church simply because sometimes fine, they just, that helps nomenclature just because of this, and I, I don't mean any offense to people who have house churches that are listening to this, but sometimes I house church can sound like a disgruntled Sunday school teacher who was never allowed to preach.
Right. I'm gonna start one in my house, and then it's the same eight people for 10 years. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, I, I say house, church, because of when we started reading about this. Of what was happening in Asia. Yep. Yeah, dude, bro. It was, it was house, church. Yeah. A hundred percent. And house church ministry. Yeah.
So, uh, and uh, so you're starting a micro [00:21:00] church?
Chris Brooks: Yeah. And we're borrowing from them, like, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, nothing's new. The, we need to look to the margins to teach the center. Right. How to get back to making disciples
Mike Glenn: how to get missional again. Exactly. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: They're seeing fourth generation disciple making movements in Asia and Africa with no clan, trained clergy.
Yeah. Hey, could you, could you help us?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Chris Brooks: Mm-hmm. Would you
Mike Glenn: send some people to Okay. Be missionaries to us. So what's it look like? Yeah. Do people usually just come over to your house?
Chris Brooks: Yeah. It's a great question. Um, I think one hospitality is a biblical requirement for leadership.
Mike Glenn: Butterfield's book.
It's huge on this gospel. What comes with the house
Chris Brooks: key? Yeah. House key. Yep. Um, I think a lot of my neighbors won't go to through the front door of a church, but they'll come through the front door of my house. Mm-hmm. There's a reason Jesus made food a sacrament. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think that table fellowship, that family fellowship, our identity statement is we're an extended spiritual family.
And I could full stop there. Okay. That is, [00:22:00] if I create extended spiritual families empowered by the Holy Spirit, uh, my life has been. Worth it. Mm-hmm. But when we get there, um, we, we, we kinda, I, I learned from an organization called Kansas City Underground. I got. I'm a carnivorous learner. Mm-hmm. And so I'm going to find anyone I can see Okay.
To see how they're doing. Kansas
Mike Glenn: City underground is a mature expression Yes. Of the micro church. Absolutely. Where, uh, they have organized around the city and then have central gatherings for mutual support and encouragement, all that. Yeah. So this is, yeah. This movement, while we would say is kind of new.
Yeah. It's really been. Tested for generations. Absolutely. All over the world. Yeah. And, and now is ma and maturing in some levels. Yeah, in, in cities here. And
Chris Brooks: they would say it was perfected in Acts.
Oh.
Mike Glenn: But after the
Chris Brooks: persecution broke out, then the church shrunk. No, it grew. Why? 'cause it went from house to house, to house to house.
Now granted you have a different cultural context [00:23:00] than Ocos. Um, but I do think that a spiritual family is one of the primary, if not the key way that God wants, right. Uh, to reproduce disciples and, and,
Mike Glenn: and the, and one of the reasons that is hitting so hard right now is that so many of us have broken families.
Chris Brooks: Yes.
Mike Glenn: And, and I tell people all the time, the good news of the gospel is we'll give you a new family.
Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Jesus will give you, he'll give you spiritual parents. He'll give you spiritual brothers and sisters. Yeah. And, uh, and spiritual children and grandchildren. Bless the Lord. Yeah. That you can love on.
Bless the Lord. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: It's
Mike Glenn: a
Chris Brooks: big deal.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Chris Brooks: Uh. Meeting with a disaffected millennial and she said, Chris, you gotta watch around using that language of family. That's triggering for a lot of people.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, in Cairo we had to change the, the prayer. We couldn't say our father. Yeah. Because it triggered so many of 'em.
I had to stop and go, Hey, this is just the word Jesus gave us.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. Well, and in my [00:24:00] response to her was the answer for bad families, not no family. Yeah. So the answer for bad church experience is not no church experience, right. So, mm-hmm. I, I think we can reclaim and redeem, and I don't know about you. In my family there's a lot of conflict.
Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of friction because we're all trying to figure out how we live in love with one another. Mm-hmm. That's even amplified, I would say, in a micro church expression. I, I can go into a lot of detail if you want me to double click on some stuff, but I'll just hit the main points I think that are essential.
Um, we do discovery bible study, which we're borrowing from the missionaries who are using it to equip ordinary people to make disciples. I wanted to teach and I had a buddy say, Hey, if you teach, um, your friend Bob, can't replicate that. It's not reproducible. Mm mm So what we do, discovery Bible study, you can Google it.
Uh, we read through scripture together daily. Uh, 'cause we wanna be word fed and spirit led. And if people can hear the voice of God and respond, I think we're on our way to making disciples, [00:25:00] then we'll pick a passage out. Um, we'll read it in two versions. And we always make the teenagers read it first. And then we ask them one of 'em to summarize it in their own words.
Great. Put a post-it note up on the wall and we ask three questions. What does it say about God? What this say about people, what will I do about it? Mm-hmm. This is the sermon. That's the sermon time. Yep. Okay. The question is, this, is the word in the spirit actually enough? Is it, do we honestly believe the spirit of God and the word of God is enough?
Mm-hmm. And so when we're gonna share a meal afterwards, 'cause meal sharing is a huge part. Uh, I think about how acquaintances become friends, and friends become family. It matters what you bring. Because that's what we're eating. Mm-hmm. I would say the same thing in the context of our quote unquote worship service.
It matters what you bring. 'cause that's what we're eating. Yeah. '
Mike Glenn: cause you're coming outta the overflow,
Chris Brooks: right? Yeah. And Mike, here's the crazy thing. I think I. I can preach a pretty good sermon on the man lying, lame and can't get to the [00:26:00] pool to get healing. Right? Good. And it would be lights out. I say, Hey, what does this say about God?
And I have a teenager who I don't even think is paying attention, says, raise their hand. Yeah. What do you think, Kate? I think it says that God goes to sick people. It doesn't avoid them. And I said, let's just amen. Amen. Pass the plates. Sit
Mike Glenn: out and eat. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: And you just go, what does it say about me? I avoid sick people.
Mm-hmm. Physically sick, emotionally sick, financially sick. Mm-hmm. And just those gut punches, moments when you experience the voice of God, not through one person, but through a family.
Mike Glenn: And in the Bible, when the Bible says, uh, and the, and the body. It seemed good to us. Yes.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. Body seems good to the spirit.
Seems good to us. The, the
Mike Glenn: body. The body of firms. And confirms what now, if you
Chris Brooks: listeners are savvy, most of the objections you get here is what about heresy? Mm-hmm. And you've had the same response I think in church one, there's heresy in your church, you just don't realize it. Exactly. Right. Two, [00:27:00] the majority of heresy comes from the institution.
Right. Not from the people. Because the question is not what do I think about God, it's what am I doing in obedience response to it. Mm-hmm. So the I and
Mike Glenn: how do I show that loyalty to God,
Chris Brooks: right? The I will statement takes care of most of the heresy, right? What will I do this week? I will call so and so who I know is sick.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I'm not saying it's that without a problem. Just pick the problems that you want to have.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And the problem I want have is that people are reading the reason that the Bible says against these things, Paul says against these things, there is no law.
Chris Brooks: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You can, you can do, you can do the things.
Everybody knows three things Jesus wants them to do. And it may be call Chris Brooks, see how the church, you know Yeah. Tell him, be praying for him. It may be this or that, but, but everybody knows those three things and that has that, that is so far from heresy. Yeah. And that simple obedience
Chris Brooks: and I, I'm watching as I get feedback for, from new families that jump in, they tear up and say, I've [00:28:00] never been able to sit and participate in a worship service with my kids where they had a voice.
Yeah.
Chris Brooks: And they're actually seeing mom and dad. Yeah. Interact in a conversation. Mm-hmm. That's not a lecture. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: But, oh, I, I got into a heated discussion. I was talking with the church and they were saying, we can't find volunteers to do children's ministry. Help us find volunteers. And I looked at 'em, I said, maybe you don't need to do children's ministry.
Well, you would've thought I had denied the Trinity. Yeah. I said, you know, children's ministry is a recent, uh, invention in the local church. For years, we sat with mom and dad. Yeah. And you learn how to sit and you learn how to behave, but you learned Yeah. The rhythm of worship and Absolutely. And you learned a lot more than you thought you did.
Chris Brooks: I, I think every expression of church has to answer three questions, right? Kids and youth, finances and how you do worship. Mm-hmm. And again, I, I don't mind having something special for my kids. Uh, in a normal setting. In fact, [00:29:00] I appreciate it. Um, I do need to confess when I was back in institutional church, it's like, get these kids the heck away from me.
That's
right. That's right. Yeah.
Chris Brooks: Mommy and dad need a little time. That's right. But at the same time, what am I teaching them? Mm-hmm. Uh, will they ever see a model of how you interact with your kids mm-hmm. Uh, in that kind of setting? So, yeah. I, I, I think kid peace is a, a big deal regardless of where you're, what are
Mike Glenn: the two or three things that, uh, you wanna be sure people know about the micro church?
Yeah. And what are the one or two things that you would say to someone who is experiencing the same DIS disease? Yeah. And, uh, great question. And out of that calling Yeah. To a micro church expression.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. I think the one or two things I'd love for you guys, uh, who are listening is, I believe micro church is a valid biblical expression of church that is not for everybody.
Mike Glenn: And so do a couple of million people around the world.
Chris Brooks: Okay. It is for somebody. Yeah, it
Mike Glenn: is.
Yeah.
Chris Brooks: And so my, I don't think, I'm [00:30:00] not a crusader. For micro church, there's a reason Baskin
Mike Glenn: Robinson's 31 flavors of ice cream.
Chris Brooks: So I'm just saying I'm a crusader for making and multiplying mature disciples. Mm-hmm.
And what actually does that for the people that you are asked to shepherd? Mm-hmm. I also wanna say, it's probably the purest expression I've seen of equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. And by the way, if you're worried about the drop off between you and the people you're equipping to do the ministry, what do you think Jesus's concern was for the disciples?
Oh, so that's the risk we want run, and it's a beautiful one that we're called to embrace. Is it messy? A hundred percent.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. That the father seems to be very comfortable with.
Chris Brooks: Yeah, and I have to tell myself this. I'm a high risk investor in the kingdom of God and people. Mm-hmm. And that means some of those stocks will tank, right?
And that's not a message about me. Mm-hmm. Uh, it is just, this is the cost of discipleship. So I don't think that was [00:31:00] anything new for Paul and I don't think it should be anything new for us. Uh, stop looking for Sure. Bets. Um, uh, what else to say? What do I want you to know about Micro Church? Um, it is ridiculously simple, slow.
And sustainable. Mm-hmm. Um, so slow down your timelines. I think we have a definition of success that is always wrapped around numbers. Mm-hmm. Um, I wanna wrap it around character that winds up producing more people that can come along and that just takes a little bit longer. Right.
Mike Glenn: As SY Jesus talks so much about agriculture.
Farming just takes time. It does. And you can't rush it and. I am
Chris Brooks: legitimately okay. If our grandkids are the ones that really look back and go, that was really important. Yeah. Where if our, our kid, some, some, if it's just a blip, like, oh, that's a nice little thing that you're trying, that's fine.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. My, my mom and dad did this weird thing when I [00:32:00] was a kid.
Chris Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Um, by the way, Amy Jo, who was on staff with us mm-hmm. Who was incredible lights out female minister. She came up to me after I told her what I was doing and she said, Chris, I was part of a micro church house church when I first became a Christian, and it's the, my pastor came and said, Hey, Amy Jo, what do you want to do here?
And I remember it was the first time someone asked me my opinion.
Yeah.
Chris Brooks: And then it mattered in the church. Mm-hmm. And now look at it, right? Oh yeah. Like giving people a voice. We have an axiom. Never do anything that a high school student can't turn around and do the next week. Mm-hmm. That may be crappy.
It may not be as good, but we're trying. We wanna be the first ask for leadership, right?
Mike Glenn: So again, or or how many times and, and, and we have these stories from our last generation. How many people were first recognized in the context of their local church? Now you go back to all the great soul singers, all the great, [00:33:00] the first people that told them they had something was in the church.
And now everything's changed and there's no place for the teenager Right. To, to experiment or to try and, right. It's as simple as like
Chris Brooks: you're working and your dad's just asking you to hold the tools. That's right. Yeah. Or Hey, you're not gonna do it good the first time. No, but give this a shot. Mm-hmm. So that's my greatest joy now is seeing other people step into areas that they didn't think God could use them in.
And we're guilty a little bit too, because we've created such a divide between a professional minister and a normal person trying to actually make disciples.
Mike Glenn: Alright, last question. What would you say to. The Chris Brooks who was first experiencing this anxiety Yeah. And this disease. Yeah. What would you say to him now?
Uh, what would, what would the, what would the president you turn around and say to him now?
Chris Brooks: Uh,[00:34:00]
embrace it. Put that question in your pocket and walk around. You still have a job to do. Mm-hmm. And go do it. Well, yeah. And don't demonize people or vilify people and don't try to crusade for a certain model. Mm-hmm. You continue with the help of other people to pray, experiment and explore and be curious and don't ever lose your love for God's church and God's people
Mike Glenn: calling make disciples the context.
Chris Brooks: Yeah, a hundred percent. Man changes.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Good. Good stuff. You gotta come back. Okay. Because we, we, we want you to come back and update what you're learning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that kind of stuff for the, for the micro church. Yeah. Uh, I'm Mike Glenn. He's Chris Brooks. And, uh, I hope you have been encouraged by the many ways that God is expressing himself and our culture and the many ways that he is forming people into the likeness of his son, Jesus [00:35:00] Christ.
This is the engaged Church network. Podcast, you can reach us@engagechurchnetwork.com and we'll see you next time.
Thanks for tuning into the Engaged Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you share it with a fellow leader and don't forget to visit engage church network.com for more ways to grow.
