Whats's Missing in the American Church? A Global Perspective
From church planting in post-Christian London to leading in the heart of Music City, Dr. West shares powerful insights on the changing landscape of ministry in the West. Together, they explore what it means to pastor in a secular culture, how long-term discipleship is reshaping evangelism, and why the American South may need to reimagine its understanding of the gospel.
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Mike Glenn: Hi, and welcome to this episode of the podcast of the Engaged Church Network. I am Mike Glenn. I am the president of the Engaged Church Network, and we get together every so often with friends of ours, and we talk about those things that are of interest, uh, to pastors, church leaders of the local churches.
Today, I'm honored to have with me, uh, Dr. Thomas West. Dr. Thomas West is the pastor of First Baptist Church, Nashville in downtown Nashville, Tennessee. He, he grew up in Auburn and went to Auburn, and we try not to hold that against him. Try to be open-minded on this [00:01:00] podcast. From there, he went to Southern, uh, Southeastern Seminary, getting his PhD in systematic theology, and has, uh, pastored a variety of churches.
Uh, before he was at Nashville, he was in London. I find it interesting that to really get a good job, you had to, you had to leave the country. But, uh, Don't tell on me, Mike. Yeah, that's right. So, so, uh, one, Thomas, welcome. Glad to have you. Thanks, Pastor. And welcome to Music City. Happy to be with you. Thank you.
You've been here a year and a half?
Thomas West: Yeah, 12 months and a few weeks. Yeah. I preached my first, uh, sermon in residence, uh, Easter Sunday of 2024. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, one of your, uh, one of the interesting things a- about you is that you planted a church in London, England.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And one of the reasons I wanna talk about that aspect of, of your ministry and, and your history is we're always told that Christianity is 20 years, whatever- Yeah
a [00:02:00] generation ahead. Safe to say. And we can, we can see where Christianity in the United States is going by looking at, uh, Europe. Yeah. So what did you find in, find out in London that you wanna make sure we in Nashville know, and what, what surprised you when you went to London? What surprised you when you came back- Yeah
uh, here to Music City?
Thomas West: Yeah. Love it. Thanks for having me on. Happy to be here with you. Um, really appreciate the work that's going on around here. Happy to be partnering with you in it as well. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Um, Mike, I gotta, I gotta just say it before, before we even do that. Um, thank you for your warm welcome to Nashville as well.
Um, landing in here, um, doing a, doing a, doing a work at, uh, First Baptist there. Um, I will never forget your warm welcome, uh, taking me to breakfast, uh, over in Brentwood, and, uh, just the phone calls and how you've timely checked in with me. I am so grateful for you. Oh, you're kind. Thank you. So, so thank you.
Thanks for the network. Thank you. Um, ended up in London. Not gonna answer [00:03:00] the question straight away, uh, because I gotta, gotta smuggle in, uh, some conversation about Leslie Newbigin, okay? Aha. So, um, Leslie Newbigin, 1909 to 1998. Right. Uh, born in Newcastle upon Tyne. Uh, goes, uh, to Cambridge, uh, for his degrees.
Uh, God saved this English kid, and he ends up going over to India as a foreign missionary for 40 years. Mm-hmm. What we know about him during this time, he was a bit of an ecumenical statesman, uh, pastor, church planter, evangelist, caring for the poor, doing the good work. Uh, what Newbigin's really known for, 1909, 1998, is 1974, the Newbigins retired from full-time missionary work in India, and they came home to Great Britain.
Mm-hmm. And when they landed in there, they started asking a question, "Why is the Church right here in Western culture not living with missionary urgency and zeal like the Church over [00:04:00] there in India?" Mm-hmm. And then it led to these other corresponding questions. Um, what would be involved in a genuinely missionary encounter between the gospel and modern Western culture?
That's a popular question. Right. It's gotten a lot of time through people like Tim Keller- Mm-hmm ... of late. And, um, I wrote my dissertation on the missionary writings of Leslie Newbigin, and part of the draw- Who, who became
Mike Glenn: the practical theologian-
Thomas West: Yeah, in so many ways ... of, of
Mike Glenn: mission,
Thomas West: mission work. That's right.
That's, that's the best way to say it. Right. And, um, winded up over there in London doing some work in the archives up at the University of Birmingham, and that's not Birmingham. Okay? It's Birmingham, Birmingham. And we settled into, um, we settled into London, and, um, wife and I had a couple days for holiday.
We were actually with my parents, and getting back from that trip, my dad called me three weeks later and he said, "I got two things I need to say to you." Uh, number one, I just want you to know [00:05:00] if, uh, you and Eli- you and your wife Elizabeth ever wanted to go to a place like London to be a part of mission, I, as your dad, I need to tell you, I could see you doing that with your life.
Wow, what a gift. And the second thing I need to tell you is if you ever decide to do that, your mom and I will do everything in our power to support you financially and see you succeed." So it's like, man, where did a church in London come from? I genuinely think it came through, uh, the blessing of my father giving me the permission to dream.
Yeah. There in lower Alabama- And just, just go ... having a heart for
Mike Glenn: missions and- That's
Thomas West: right, man. I mean, Troy, Alabama. Yeah. Uh, I love my dad. He is probably the most conservative, risk-averse human being- ... you've ever met in your life. And for him to be calling me and saying, "Hey, man, I can see you doing it."
Yeah. It's powerful. So that's, that's some of the impetus for like, man, where... How do you even... How does a kid from Montgomery get to London? Right. I mean, we don't got a lot of those going around. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, over, over in London, I mean, what, what, what can you say? It'll absolutely ruin you for cities.
[00:06:00] 8.6 million people. Uh, it's absolutely provocative what the Lord is doing right now. It's 51% foreign-born immigrant. Walking down the sidewalk, you got better odds of meeting someone who was not born in the United Kingdom than, uh, was born somewhere in town. Wow. Uh, it's incredibly global, incredibly, uh, diverse.
Um, God's doing something really special there. You know, around the time we got in there, um, some statistics had the, the churching of London around less than 2%, which is statistically unreached according to some mission agencies. Others put the number as high as 6%. And then even here in recent months, we've been seeing some delightful research coming out, talking about how, um, the, the reawakening or the- Right
re-enchanting- Mm-hmm ... the re-evangelization of, uh, Great Britain. And it's, uh, really, really great to see.
Mike Glenn: So how did you start your church in London?
Thomas West: We went with a bit, very much a pioneer approach by the grace of God, reached out to some different, uh, missions agencies- Mm-hmm ... and tried to go here and tried to go there, and basically what we found out [00:07:00] is if you want to, uh, if you wanna go across, uh, to London, um, to, to raise your own support, pioneer, network, and plant churches and catalyze stuff- Mm-hmm gotta pioneer, you gotta forge a path.
So we did. We found these, uh, wonderful brothers at a place called Co-Mission Network based in Wimbledon. Uh, they sponsored my visa, and we got in, and the thinking was like, "How in the world are we gonna do this?" Mm-hmm. Um, the accent, the American accent from the South doesn't play well in affluent London.
And, um, we sought out some coaching from some different people. The best we could work it out, we were gonna have to really make our play at the school gate. So, um, you know, think about this. There's, there's no traffic. I know we were a little late getting, even getting here for the podcast- Right, yeah ... no traffic over there, uh, no drive time.
Uh, you literally, uh, you live, you work, you play all off of one main street or high street, and the one central school where everybody, uh, got together, uh, you walk there from your house every [00:08:00] morning. Right. You walk to the school gate, and after drop-off, you know, moms and dads kinda standing around. You get to know people around the gate and go to a coffee and have an afternoon play date, and the things just kinda catalyzed from there.
So it's gonna be relationships- Yeah ... and it's gonna be through the kids' school. Mm-hmm. Uh, we also got really involved in the school PTA, and, um, bit of a weird figure. When people started figuring out, wait, we got a Baptist, uh, evangelical preacher from Alabama trying to evangelize- ... this well-to-do, affluent, middle-class neighborhood in London.
Had one guy actually take me out one night, and his, uh, his whole agenda was to convince me that I made a massive mistake. And I was like, "Don't worry, I doubt that all the time myself." That's right.
Mike Glenn: It's like... And, uh- Take a number, take a seat, huh? Yeah,
Thomas West: yeah. Yeah. Um, and we got involved, uh, through the school gate, and God did what he does, man, just relationships, putting yourself out there.
But- Mm-hmm ... you know, one of the things, and we'll come onto this in a minute, um, man, over there, over there in the, in the UK, kind of call it, like, [00:09:00] Western Europe, there's no sense of build it and they will come. Right. There's not a hint of, "Well, we're this- Right ... and we'll just, we'll just let them know the door's unlocked."
No, man, you go out there and, uh, the church is built person by person, conversation by conversation, contending in the pubs and the coffee shops. That's, that's where the mission's won.
Mike Glenn: Right. So it's almost the, the kind of evangelism that we read about in Paul- Mm ... where he went to the, the city and found the synagogue or- Mm-hmm.
Thomas West: Yeah ... or
Mike Glenn: started making tents, and then the conversation started there, and then-
Thomas West: That's right. That's right ...
Mike Glenn: then next we're in somebody's house, and then from there we go. Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas West: And, you know, um, contextualizing this a little bit to, like, the greater Nashville area, but, and we can do, we can do more than that, was it's really an issue of the Church in the American South, uh, largely, um, yeah, secularism, cultural narratives, this and that.
Largely, uh, our dominant mode is Acts chapter 13. It's Paul in the synagogue. Right. It's, well, hey, [00:10:00] you know a few Bible stories, let me, let me reference the Old Testament a few times, get you into a place of Jesus. Man, fill up the altar. Right. That's a lot of American Christianity in the South, Acts 13.
Mm-hmm. Not everywhere in America. When you go out West Coast, we got a whole different ballgame. Mm-hmm. And my experience leaving the American South, going into a place like London, I realized, man, we have moved outside of Acts 13. We're doing Acts 17 ministry now. Mm-hmm. We are in the Areopagus. We're in the marketplace.
Uh, we're contending in a different way. We have to spend a long time, uh, talking about the reasonableness for God, the plausibility of God, the possibility of God, trying to- Building
Mike Glenn: the philosophical case- Come on ... before you build the theological
Thomas West: case. That's it. That's it. And that takes time. Mm-hmm. Um, there's no one and done with that.
There's no, "Oh, my goodness, thank you for that 15-minute conversation. The whole thing makes sense." There's a lot of... We developed a, a phrase over there. Um, you wanna... I- in every conversation, what you're really trying to do, you're just trying to drop a pebble in somebody's shoe. And you [00:11:00] know, they walk off acting like everything's fine, but you've had the smallest rock in your shoe.
Yeah. It affects your whole, your whole, your whole walk. Right. And that's what you're trying to do in these kinds of conversations. Every day, every interaction, I'm just trying to give you another something. I'm trying to paint the picture. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to weave the tapestry a little more day by day.
And you're trying to gently bring people along. And, and, and part of our experience, uh, the fruit that we saw came two to three years into diligent tilling away conversations where the questions would start to really b- formulate, and, uh, saw a few people actually trusting Christ, and it was absolutely amazing.
Mm-hmm. I feel like I've lived the Book of Acts. But that Acts 17 model is, "Now, here's the possibility of God. Here's why this would make sense." It's cultural apologetics. And, um, then years in, "Hey, here's Jesus." Right. "You should trust in Him." Now, it's not to say we're not calling people to faith. No, like, that call is scattered all throughout.
Right. But just knowing I'm going to genuinely and earnestly give this call, [00:12:00] um, but it'll probably take two years of this, three years of this before faith makes sense- Mm-hmm ... as it were.
Mike Glenn: See, like you, I was... I grew up in a church with the four spiritual laws.
Thomas West: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: And that I, the, the evangelism that we were taught-
Thomas West: Romans Road
Mike Glenn: Romans Road and all that is you go, you make this presentation. The presentation's maybe 10 minutes long. Mm-hmm. And then somebody will decide.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And you'll make a decision-
Thomas West: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: uh, after that. Uh, when I s- started the young adult ministry that we called Kairos, uh- Fantastic work, man. Yeah ... I was having to go back and tell people, "Listen, these kids take a year- Mm-hmm
or two to make a de- They'll come back and ask you a question- Mm-hmm ... and you'll debate them or talk with them. They'll disappear. This is how it works. And, uh, you won't hear from them for months. Then they'll drop back in and go, "I was thinking about what you said." You're like, "Joker, I didn't know if you were still in town."
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. I have no idea what we said. Yeah. So if you catch me up- Just remind me of this ... to, to, to where we [00:13:00] were. Yeah ... uh, about how long now evangelism takes- Mm-hmm ... uh, because of, of the culture that people are growing up in.
Thomas West: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's not part of the, uh... And, and, and, and, and there is no disparaging of the American South or the- No, no, no, Lord
church in the American South. This is a beautiful thing the Lord's given us, like all of this access- Mm-hmm ... all of this mental furniture that people have. Mm-hmm. But it's just embracing. You know, there's a lot of other places in North America, and you wanna leave, you wanna leave and go somewhere and say, man, it is...
It's not even that, uh, people are mad at God. Oh, that'd be such a delight to find somebody who, uh, was frustrated with God. Just never think about him at all. Never think about him. Keller would say it, right? The, you know, the opposite of love isn't wrath. No. Are you kidding me? No, the opposite of love is that cool, passive indifference.
Apathy.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Just don't even, you don't even come up on my radar.
Thomas West: So I- I'd introduce myself to people, and they're like, "Oh, this is amazing." I'm like, "What, what's amazing?" It's like, "I've never met a Christian minister [00:14:00] before." Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So you spend, what, 10 years?
Thomas West: I just shy of five years. About five years?
Yeah, I feel like I lived 15 having to go through COVID.
Mike Glenn: Graded me up a little bit. Oh, God, you're right. Here we go with it all again. Yeah, so. Come back- Yeah ... to Nashville. Yeah. What parts do you recognize? What part do you not recognize?
Thomas West: Yeah. It's amazing. You see it through my perspective. You see it through the perspective of my children.
You know, went over there, uh, my son Shepard, nine years old. I mean, went over there as a, a three-year-old-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Thomas West: and just inculturated, part of this, like, international syndicate of mates from around the world. He's the only one with an American accent. Um, you know, it's interesting seeing it from their eyes, and it's, like, a bit coming home, you know, for us.
Mm-hmm. Um, we just shy of five years. I mean, what do you say? It's like, that's enough time to be away to genuinely, like, blur your accent enough- Well, we think it's British ... this and that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's right. We think- We think it's British. Yeah, yeah. Um, a little blonde kid with, you know, the flowing locks.
I mean, the, the- Yeah ... the, the grandparents in Birmingham have no shot. [00:15:00] It's like we're going to Target, and I'll have whatever I want. Um, I tell you what, coming back in, mm, you notice, uh, you notice how, um, the diversity hasn't made its way all the way in, and part of that is just how we're, how we're set up.
Um, you don't have, we don't have near the cultural diversity of a place like London or the UK. Mm-hmm. But you do see these micro expressions of it, where maybe our churches, uh, we're not as fully as integrated as we might be capable of being, so that's something, that's something you notice, uh, awf- awfully homogenous- Mm-hmm
in a lot of places. Um, you, you realize, it's like, oh, I'm sorry. I thought, I thought it was gonna take an Acts 17 level expression, but a lot of the modus operandi is a little more back towards Acts 13. It's like- Wait, hold on, let's rewind that Yeah But even there you see how flimsy the foundation of Acts 13 might be if you really wanna go there, because, like, how well do you know the Old Testament?
Right, right Like, do, do you know this story? And I might, we might need to go become a little more [00:16:00] foundational than we thought. Right. So that's something I'm, I'm, I'm starting to see here. Like, we think it's cultural Christian, but man, I met a lot of cultural Muslims in, in, in London, and they couldn't tell you the last time they picked up a Quran.
Right. So you just wonder how much of that is actually, uh, is actually on us, on us here. Um, this is gonna, it's gonna sound harsh. I mean, we're just, we're just having the conversation. Um, coming back into the American South, you see it pretty quickly, the wealth and the waste.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Thomas West: In a general sense, uh, specifically around the church space as well.
Um, and then you- Yeah, my,
Mike Glenn: my friends- Yeah ... who have come back from the mission field are stunned at how much food is thrown away in local restaurants.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: It panics. It, it causes anxiety- It's weird, yeah ... for them.
Thomas West: Yeah. We, we, we come back and, uh, I mean, w- you know what we did. We brought the duffle bag. We did a big Target run.
Mm-hmm. Got all the stuff, but I mean, we were literally joking with ourselves packing the night before our summer holiday here before going back. It's like, man, we've got to be sure we're not [00:17:00] seen to be with this much plastic, because they would cancel us in Queen's Park. You know what I mean? Like, put it away.
Don't tell them, you know? It's like, doing photos, take the plastic out. You know, just some of that, um, yeah, the, the wealth and the waste. Um, it does return to Newbigin's question for me. Right. How do, how do you get a church living in Western culture to see this as a missionary situation? Bingo. 'Cause it seems like in Nashville, I mean, it's the illusion of Christian saturation.
Yeah, underline- But do- ... that word
Mike Glenn: illusion Yeah Yes Do
Thomas West: we really have it? Mm-mm. Do we really have robust New Testament Christianity? Do we have not this but not that kind of discipleship? Mm. Or is it, is the American story and the, the So- you know, the, the Southern American story and the Christian story somehow so just kinda blended up that you can't even tell the fuzzy difference between the two?
Mm-hmm I think, I think that deserves some more attention Well,
Mike Glenn: there are some points of our culture with the Christian nationalism where- Mm-hmm ... the stuff has not just been fuzzied [00:18:00] together- Mm-hmm ... but actually stirred together- Mm ... in the bowl.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that, there's like particularly pernicious expressions of it, right?
Mm-hmm. So, yeah. I think, I think a lot of that deserves some time and attention, and a lot of Newbegin's project has really become mine. What would be involved in a genuinely missionary encounter between the gospel and modern Western culture? So what's it like to be a member of the local church? What's it like to be a leader in the local church?
We're giving a lot of our time and energy to helping people think through, what does the gospel have to say to my culture?
Mike Glenn: Right.
Thomas West: Uh, I think, uh, maybe, maybe we're a bit blinded in a lot of ways that, um, oh, yeah, the gospel just blindly endorses and affirms everything in my cultural setting. Yeah. It's like, I don't know, you...
Let's go, let's go, you know, grab a bishop from Nairobi and, you know, someone from Australia and bring them, a charismatic from Australia and a French Pentecostal. Yeah. Let's get them to come have a, a reading of this situation, and I doubt they would see it the same way. Right. The only way to ha- the only way to [00:19:00] understand our own culturally conditioned understanding of scripture is to read scripture with the, the, the host of the great global church.
And when we start considering different ways of constructing theology and seeing situations, we see we might actually have some blinders in our situation. Well, we've
Mike Glenn: seen this with, uh, leaders from, from the, from the global church in Africa- Yeah ... and, and Latin America, uh, call to account- Yeah ... certain denominations in our own nation- Yeah
uh, because of what th- the, the global church sees as a, as a walking away from the, from the gospel truth. Yeah. Yeah. And it's been bishops in Africa and church leaders in Brazil who have- Yeah ... who, who have said this.
Thomas West: Yeah. Looking to come in, share the gospel. Yeah, it's, it is startling, isn't it, when you, you see somebody and say, "Oh, where, where are you here from?"
It's like, "Oh, I'm a missionary sent from Africa to help y'all out."
Mike Glenn: That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's sobering. Yeah, and the number of churches- Yeah ... in Brazil, a- as you know, Southern Baptist, [00:20:00] our first big missionary effort was Brazil. Mm. And all the stories of our first missionaries come out of Brazil and China.
Thomas West: Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Uh, and now Brazilian Baptist churches are raising money to send missionaries back-
Thomas West: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: to Nashville- Yeah ... which funded the missionary that started their church.
Thomas West: That's, uh, that's sobering. Yeah. Yeah, that'll wake you up a little bit. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now, as a, uh, systematic theologian-
Thomas West: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: uh, truth, uh, a consistent truth.
Mm. I mean, some of the stories we were telling, uh, before we started the podcast was about the inconsistency of the cultural truth that- Yeah ... that we're, we're peddled- Yeah ... and the hypocrisy of that is. Uh, but, but discipleship is, is so important that you and our buddy Trevor Wax- Yes,
Thomas West: yeah
Mike Glenn: Have, uh, come up with a gospel way catechism
Thomas West: Yep.
Yeah. Thank you very much. [00:21:00] Um, you know, towards the end of his life, uh, late Reverend Tim Keller and, uh, you know, Redeemer Presbyterian, New York- Right ... wrote a book, How to Reach the West Again. Mm-hmm. Very much drawing on Lesslie Newbigin's project, and in it he has these, like, six big ideas for what it's gonna take.
One of them is the development of a new counter-catechesis for our digital age. Mm-hmm. Now, that sounds a bit pie in the sky, so, I mean, what are we talking about? Keller's saying, uh, social media, uh, the dominant influence of, I mean, how much we're taking in. Mm-hmm. Um, we are absorbing, um, narratives, uh, from our culture all the time.
We call these cultural narratives or cultural stories. Not only, not only
Mike Glenn: that, but the social media- Yeah ... the algorithm- Yeah ... is programmed to make it addictive. Yeah. Absolutely. So once- Yeah ... you start scrolling- Mm-hmm ... before you know it-
Thomas West: Yeah hour later Your
Mike Glenn: whole night's done
Thomas West: Yeah, yeah. And i- i- isn't it [00:22:00] concerning when the people who actually make the tech don't use it?
Yes. Yeah, so, um, you, there's- Send their kids to
Mike Glenn: school where you can't bring an iPad ... man, stories of
Thomas West: Steve, Steve Jobs never letting his kids have an iPad. Right. That's interesting. Anyways, um, so we took up Keller's call, and we developed the Gospel Way Catechism. Um, a few, few words, uh, deserve, uh, breaking down.
This is very much like trying to honor, uh, the ministry of Tim Keller, answering Keller's call. Mm-hmm. Uh, it's a big part of what we did. So you kinda start breaking it down, it's like catechism, it's like- Well, he's Presbyterian-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ... so you're gonna have those big words like catechism- Yeah, and you're wondering like-
counter-catechism ... man, some Baptists listening to this are like, "
Thomas West: Can we do that?" The non-denoms are listening- That's right, yeah, yeah ... to this saying, "What is that?" That's right, yeah. So catechism s- catechesis simply means the teaching. That's right. It's a, it's a Latin word. You even see it in the New Testament.
Paul's literally commanding to Tim, "Hey man, remember the teaching." The teaching. So we gotta do the teaching. Yeah. That's the catechism. Um, it's a way of, it's a way of discipleship. It's an ancient discipleship tool that we actually see from the [00:23:00] time of the Reformation when the, the church was needing to reform away from the church there in Rome.
Mm-hmm. It developed this new tool of question and answer- Right ... sort of discipleship. Mm-hmm. It's, it's like the OG of Bible study curriculum. Uh, Philip Melanchthon, uh- Yeah ... what's his name? Uh, th- yeah- Yeah ... I'm not gonna say the- Luther and Melanchthon, that's exactly it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: He was the one who put, put Luther's teachings down into Q&A- That's it.
We have these- ... or f- or, uh, format ... yeah,
Thomas West: so we have these amazing, um, like, catec- different catechetical documents, cate- the, the, the teaching or the instruction. And the, the, the m- the most of them that we see, they're really from the time of the Reformation when you got guys like Calvin goes into Geneva.
Mm-hmm. How are you gonna reform Geneva? Mm-hmm. He wrote a catechism, then he wrote the church order, and then he got after the preaching in the city. Mm-hmm. Um, it's a way of saying, "This is what we believe." It's a way of being core, uh- Mm-hmm ... the systematic theology writ small. Mm-hmm. Keller was saying we need a new way of doing this to keep up with the digital age, [00:24:00] and we tried to answer that call here in this book.
It's, uh, forthcoming. There's a book and a workbook coming out with Harvest House, who've just been great to work with. It's coming out, uh, July 22nd, and then we just turned in the manuscript for a full children's resource that's gonna come out, uh, in July of 2026, and it'll be a whole discipleship ecosystem for the whole church, the whole family.
Um, what we do in here is we essentially seek to recover a model of discipleship toned to the Sermon on the Mount, where we say, "You have heard it said," but Jesus says to you. Mm-hmm. So you have heard it said, um, "I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my own soul," but Jesus says, "I'm first." Mm-hmm.
And it's a way of saying we've really got to figure out how to tackle this narrative of self-expressive individualism, this I'm gonna be me, I'm gonna do me- Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna feel my vibe and chase my vibe. We've got to find a way to counter that as a church. And people are like, "Whoa, counter? That's, like, [00:25:00] so negative.
Like, that's no way..." It's not negative at all. The original catechisms were saying, "This is what we believe over and against the teachings of Rome."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Thomas West: And this is us saying, "Hey, here in the American South, all across Western culture today, we gotta, we gotta get back to that." Mm-hmm. Because watch this, if that sounds offensive, might let you know just how mixed up these narratives have become.
Right. And we gotta get back to being able to tease- Right ... these things apart. So this project is written to help untangle some of the knots, kinda comb it out once again- Mm-hmm ... where we can say in a fresh way, "Hey, you've heard it said, you know, well, your truth is your truth," but Jesus says- Right ... over and against that.
Mm-hmm. So it's a question- Well, you know- ... answer, commentary, Bible study stuff, et cetera. Since we're, since we're talking about
Mike Glenn: books The book comes out end of May Uh, J- J- July 22nd No, my book comes out end of May I didn't know about that. Did I message you? I was like, "We ready?" We tra- we,
Thomas West: we, we- We gonna get it
Mike Glenn: We gonna, we gonna get in this word- We gonna get-
about the book, so,
Thomas West: Come on
Mike Glenn: So, [00:26:00] uh, Preaching in a Post-Truth World.
Thomas West: That's it, Mike. You're all over it. Uh- This is in the stream ...
Mike Glenn: but, but, and, and my point is, you and I as pastors stand up in the pulpit and hold the Bible and say- Mm-hmm ... "This is the word of God." Yeah. "This is the truth of God." The congregation's going, "Mm, maybe."
Yeah, that's right. 100%. But they have encountered all kind of truth claims. Yeah. And, uh, and the thing I like about this idea and this catechism is, is, um, the clarity and the simplicity. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is- That's right ... this is what you've heard, and this is what it says. That's right. This is what you've heard, this is what it says.
That's right. Love that. I love that concept. Thanks,
Thomas West: Pastor. Okay. It's very much systematic theology writ small. Yeah. It's like, you know, you don't have to go tackle Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. We just condensed it, condensed it, condensed it, got it down to 50 ins- installments right here.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You know, one of my, one of my r- real frustrations right now is we had to carry around those theology books when I was in school.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You know, and they're, you know, six, seven inches thick and doorstops now, and [00:27:00] now it's all on digital, and you just, It's all right there Yeah. Got a whole library in your pocket You, you get a whole library to- Yeah ... so I'm, I'm still trying to deal with that. That's, uh, one of my, uh, pet peeves. Um, now, you've been, uh, you've been in America over a year.
Mm-hmm. Uh, and now you are a missionary, um, literally, if you think about it- Mm ... to some of the people who give America its language.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Some of the songwriters we know. Mm. Some of the musicians and the, and entertainers we know come up with these phrases.
Thomas West: Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And now you're their pastor.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, you're their teacher So, so what's, what's on the horizon for First Natural?
Yeah. What's your passion for that?
Thomas West: Yeah. You know, um, in so many ways, going to London, um, it was really a Tim Keller center church, uh, way of understanding it- Mm-hmm ... or a [00:28:00] theological vision that really took us over there. Um, it's really the, the gospel movement and the city, like all, all working together.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, that's a, that's a lot of what I bring, uh, to the corner of 7th and Broadway. And yes, you're exactly right, um, world-class music right across the, the streets, out the view of the fellowship hall right in there to the Ryman, and, you know, the honky-tonks at the bottom of the block, Music Row just on the other side, world-class university education all around.
You're thinking like, "Man, how, how are we gonna, how are we gonna get after it? Like, what is this-" Mm-hmm ... gonna look like?" Um, you know, yes, what you would expect and experience with high quality Sunday morning and Wednesday night, but we are fooling ourselves if we think that's gonna be it. Mm-hmm. That's gonna be enough.
So we're, uh, we're having conversations about what does it look like to be church for the city? How do we engage our city with the gospel? Um, we're, we're in, we're in R&D right now for- Mm-hmm ... what is this [00:29:00] gonna look like to care for the urban poor? Um, just a, just a brief little... I mean, it's just a little wavelength of reflection, but, you know, we're realizing, like, man, we don't need the clothes closet that we once did.
So I mean, we actually just, you know, uh, took, took care of, sold off, and, and, and wisely stewarded, like, what we had- Well, we're starting to see something, Mike. Uh, the urban poor looks different in 2020 than it did- Ah ... in 1990.
Mike Glenn: There you go.
Thomas West: And, uh, the kind of, uh, the urban poor that rocks up now, uh, I mean, they need a pair of affordable boots, some tube socks, um, some sweatpants, a hoodie, a Carhartt jacket.
I mean, it's like, uh, it's, it's just different. They, they don't need- And they need
Mike Glenn: a place to charge their phone.
Thomas West: There it is. They, they just... The, the need is, the need is not somebody's old suit- Right ... for a job interview. Right. And the, the dynamics are changed. Mm-hmm. So it's like, man, what, what is that gonna...
So that's just something that comes up. It's like, man, what is, what is caring for the urban poor going to look like in a new day? Um, a lot of... And you've been very helpful for some conversations around this. We think [00:30:00] about, um, you think about, like, most of the people who could come here, they actually live 30 to 45 minutes from here.
Right. But they spend five days of the week around the building. Right. So what is this faith and work ministry gonna look like? Mm-hmm. What is partnering with people in the marketplace going to look like? Mm-hmm. What are lunchtime Bible talks going to look like? Model- modeled after the, the ministry of Dick Lucas over there at St.
Helen's at Bishopsgate in London, right there- Right ... in the City. Um, and then, man, come on. Is it gonna be, what kind of pioneering and innovation, uh, can we find, uh, co-working opportunities- Yeah ... uh, for the city? There's all kinds of exciting potentials, and it's like, yes, like the experience of a gathered local church.
Here's, here's Wednesday night, here's Sunday morning. Man, known for top-tier faithful gospel-centered instruction, good modes of discipleship- Mm ... and leadership development, but, like, reaching the city and ministering- Right ... to the city. It's, it's probably gonna have all these other hubs of activity going on outside of when the [00:31:00] church formally gathers.
How do we con- use the space to convene the city, to serve the city from this place? And disciple
Mike Glenn: and release your people to that
Thomas West: ministry. Yeah. So, so those, those, you know, that prob- that, like, half day we get between the Sunday night and the Sunday- Right ... morning, it's like, man, welcome. The hospital for the sick is open again.
Yeah. Let's, let's patch you back up, encourage you. Let's put that wound together. Mm-hmm. Man, here's the gospel. Here's mission instruction. Okay, let's go get it. But the real point of all of this is what happens in those six and a half days that you're not in this building.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, there's 168 hours in a week.
There it is. And we, we have a handful of hours- Yeah ... barely-
Thomas West: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: and, and expect to undo everything the world does in the rest of that time. Yeah. So that's just tough. Yeah. Thanks for being here. Happy to be with you. He's Thomas West. He is the pastor of First Baptist, uh, Church Nashville downtown. If you're looking for a church home, First Baptist Nashville is well worth your time to check out.
Get to know Thomas, have a cup of coffee with him, and, uh, and, and see if maybe [00:32:00] your future and what God's doing in your life aligns with what God is doing in that church. Now, we can get this book, uh- In July ... in July. Yeah. But we can pre-order it now.
Thomas West: Yeah, Amazon, wherever books are sold, gospelwaycatechism.com.
Mike Glenn: Wherever books are sold. Uh, The Gospel Way Catechism, Trevin Wax and Thomas West. Uh, we thank you for being with us. Thank you. We thank you for being with us, and we will see you next time. I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engage Church Network podcast.
Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
