A Pastor's Guide to the New Year | Shepherds Without Sheep
As we step into a new year, the Shepherds Without Sheep panel sits down to talk honestly about ministry, momentum, and the soul work pastors often avoid. From navigating post-Christmas exhaustion to rethinking what truly matters in January, this conversation pulls back the curtain on how seasoned pastors approach the start of a new year with wisdom.
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Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] Well, I, I, I- And you smile ... my thing was n- no off, no more often. I didn't add the graciously part. By, by then I was so burned out and mad, I just, "No."
Thought I
Tim Harlow: was- Hey, welcome back to Shepherds Without Sheep. We- Uh, we- Have made all the mistakes Made all the mistakes So you don't have to So you don't have to. Uh, Mike, Michael, and Tim here with you again. Uh, we wanna talk about New Year's. We wanna talk about, uh, uh, you know, the whole transition. I mean, you got, y- w- all the people coming for Christmas.
What do you do with it? Um, I was just reminded that, um, you know, I mean, in this age of [00:01:00] technology, it's always hard to try to figure out whether to push to get somebody's information or not. Because, you know, everybody knows Google knows everything about everybody. And, um, and yet, I, I know a lot of churches that just kind of blow that whole thing off and don't try to get any kind of information from people.
And if our job is to reach people with the gospel, and they showed up for Christmas, then I would, my first, my first recommendation is try to figure out some way that you can get them to do something to connect with you so that you can invite them back. I mean, that, that, the, the goal of Christmas services isn't to come and find out about who Jesus was.
It's about getting them connected on a relationship with, with God. So as you're getting started with that, I think that's real important, and I'll just go ahead and k- kind of start the discussion. For us, um, and I know this, this is weird for maybe a lot of, a, a lot of people to think about, but we were in Chicago.
January and February are [00:02:00] horrible, right? Our largest attendance was in January and February, and I know that's true for a lot of other churches. But even though we'd have blizzards and nobody could even get to church on a weekend, January and February were big months for us. So at the Christmas service, you know, as they're leaving, "Hey, we're getting ready to do a series on something that has to do with- Making your life better, a relationship series, a margin series, a financial series, not from a giving standpoint, you know, like an FPU kind of thing or whatever.
Um, we would always have something that was sexy, if I can use that word, that might make them want to come back and, and, you know, give it another shot. Um, the other thing we did, and I don't, I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I would bring, I would try to have a guest from time to time. I was able to get, like, Mike Singletary several times in- Mm-hmm
in that time slot. Great Christian man, 85 Bear. I mean, everybody's gonna come out and [00:03:00] hear Mike, right? Mm-hmm. I would get, I would get a sports person, or I would get a, a, you know, a, a, a famous artist of some kind that I could get in to come in, and, and I could advertise that at Christmas and say, "Hey, come back," 'cause, you know, whatever, somebody's gonna be here that you wanna hear from, and, um, and get them back.
I mean, for me, that was the, uh, that was the key. Uh, not, we don't wanna f- just fill up seats. We wanna get a relationship with these people so we can help them have a relationship with God.
Mike Glenn: What did you do? Uh, if they are coming, that is usually the first way that they tell you they are some kind of interested, okay?
And, and so- Yeah, if they fill something out ... so, so for this thing of, well, we don't wanna offend them, we don't wanna do that. No, they're telling you- Yeah ... we have some level of interest. Right. So capitalize on that. Yeah. And, and at least get the information so you can, you can, you can follow up. Uh, and, uh, and there's always, uh, [00:04:00] uh, the, the tease for coming soon.
Right. Of, okay, you might wanna be back for this because it, it, it applies directly to where you live. Yeah.
Michael Easley: You know, I was never that intentional. I'm, I'm listening to both of you talk about, especially Tim, uh, great creativity. I, I applaud it. Um, I was typically a book of the Bible guy. Yeah. I taught books of the Bible.
Yeah. Sometimes I might start in the new year. Sometimes we would take a, a break for a season of messages on X, Y, or Z. Sure. But in the main, it was more this is what we do. Yeah. This is who we are. Yeah. Um, I feel the Onus isn't the right word, but to me the responsibility is on the church family to welcome their friends, to say, "Hey, we think you'd like this."
Right, right. Or, "This is a series that our pastor is doing," or whatever. And I push pretty hard on that. It's in, uh, not in an unfair way, but like l- this is your f- this is your body. Sure. This is the body of Christ. Your job, you touch people I can't touch. Yeah. You know, you're- No, that's true ... in the Pentagon, you're wherever you are.
Yeah. I'll, I'll never be in that [00:05:00] context, but those are your friends in the community, the sphere of influence God has you in. If you wanna bring 'em, bring 'em. And, um, I think in our area it was more selective. We're talking about You go to a church one time, you know you're not going back That's right. But the, the other's true, too.
If, if they've got really good worship- Yeah ... let's be candid. Yeah. If the music's good- Absolutely ... if the message is compelling- Yeah ... I might give that another try. If the kids department- Right. 100% ... if, if my kids are happy- Yeah ... I'm
Tim Harlow: coming back. 100%. Right? I mean, I, I, I, and I think as an expository... I mean, I, I went back and forth.
I think you can, you can do that expositorily as well. Yeah. "Hey, we're getting ready to start in the, you know- Well, and to that point- ... the book of-" ...
Michael Easley: to that, well, and to that point, y- we did launch programs. Yeah. We launched an FPU. Right. We launched a Crown. We launched whatever. Yeah, yeah. And you build up to that.
But, but that's, that tends to be segmented to people already in the church, in my opinion.
Tim Harlow: What you don't wanna do, well, I, I would think, uh, what you don't wanna do is, "Hey, d- we're gonna be back in, you know, Matthew chapter five next week," because then they're like, "Well, [00:06:00] what, you know, what happened in the first four?
And I don't, you know, I don't know how that works." Well,
Michael Easley: and that's part of exposition, that you have to, you have to learn how to do a paragraph of recap every Sunday morning- Yeah, yeah ... of where you are. Wow. You know, especially, like, I had long book studies. Mm. And, you know, if you don't like it, you don't come back, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of churches in the, in the area, but that was sort of our hallmark. But, a- and this is an important question. Today, the church we go to has QR codes for everything. Right. Yeah. And I'm thinking- Every, every church does ... no more visitor cards. Yeah. You just hold up, and you wanna find out- Yeah
about this, and you see people pull their phones out.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, right.
Michael Easley: And we got all your info now. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. And, and we should use it to a, a, a certain degree. Yeah. I mean, don't overuse it, and don't underuse it. Right. I mean, there, there's a, there's a balance to that, because you could- Well, don't
Mike Glenn: violate their trust and sell it
Tim Harlow: to, you know- Well, o- obviously, yeah
you know, folks. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: that kind of thing.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. Mm. It's... Um, I also did something, I, and I hit on this l- later on along the way. I would advertise, uh, [00:07:00] you know, whatever, whatever I was gonna do, but I also almost always had a comeback sermon that- I don't, I couldn't necessarily advertise it, but I almost always w- and, and again, if you didn't hear the last episode, we would take the weekend off completely, uh, live services- Mm
in between, uh, Christmas and, and New Year's and, uh, do a, a video-oriented thing. So if, y- you know, if Christmas ... I- if, if the first year, uh, first Sunday in the year was the 3rd or the 4th or whatever it was, I would have some kind of a comeback sermon, and it would just be- E-
Mike Glenn: explain comeback sermon ...
Tim Harlow: so, so, um, uh, Spurgeon's, uh, Dig a Ditch.
You ever hear Spurgeon do the Dig a Ditch one? Mm-hmm. The, uh, y- you know, obscure, uh, Old Testament pa- a lot of times it would be an obscure Old Testament- Mm-hmm ... passage, and it was about, you know, the prophet was saying, "If you g- it's gonna rain tomorrow, and if you want water, you better dig a ditch ahead of time."
And it w- [00:08:00] it's just a beautiful pass- and obviously can't even quote it for you now. But that Dig a Ditch sermon was a great kind of, "Hey, if you want your new year to be good, you gotta dig a ditch." I mean, it would be a- Mm ... Prayer of Jabez thing or a, or a, uh, Batterson's book, uh, you know, I- in a Pit with a Lion on a Snowy Day.
Oh, yeah, very- Or some- Great passage. Yeah ... you know, some, some kind of fun, you know, story from Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego or something that would really be like a, almost- Mm ... a motivational- Mm-hmm ... New Year's kind of a thing. Mm-hmm. I, and, and I always did it.
Michael Easley: I would do a reflection at the, the ... we talked about between Christmas and East- or, uh, New Year's- Mm
that people tend to not come to church much. Yeah, yeah. Or the, maybe you would go from lo- lots of services to one or two, and I would do kind of a reflections, and it would be more what I'd learned in the prior year, maybe we had some really big life events in the church. I would often use Psalm 90- Hm
'cause that's Moses looking back on his life- Yeah ... and that, that famous conclusion, you know, "Show us the work of our hands, Lord. Yes, show us [00:09:00] the work of our hands." Did my life mean something? Yeah. You know, at the end of Saving Private Ryan, telling, "Tell me I'm a good man." Right, yes. "Did my life count?" Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. And looking back w- trying to ... not trying to be heavy on regrets but say, you know, you look back and then plan. And I don't know what you guys did in your ministry pattern, but, but for me, between Christmas and New Year's, I hu- I hunkered down, and I, I reviewed the year. I looked at sermon notes. I looked at, uh, appointments on my calendar, and I'd pray through that going, "Okay, Michael, what are you gonna do next year?"
And I loved that break, and I would go through ... This is back when it was manageable. I'd go through contact lists, and I would say, "I haven't talked to this guy in forever." Mm-hmm. And I might call him up over the break. There was one guy, a college roommate. For years, we'd call each other between Christmas and New Year.
And he's a great brother, we just never saw each other during the year. That's really cool. But it was a reminder- Mm-hmm ... of looking back on your life and, you know, what you're thankful for and looking ahead. I don't know. Do you guys Use that time creatively No, I do think, I, I do think- Well, can I just tell you,
Tim Harlow: I played Call of [00:10:00] Duty.
For, for f- For weeks on end For the whole week. My brain was fried. I always got the new Call of Duty. Yeah. Bag of Cheetos and you would- And I just killed, I just killed Nazis That's what I did. I'm just gonna be honest. You decide. Uh,
Mike Glenn: I think, I think the point they're trying to make, it is important to rest, rest between.
Christmas is exhausting. Yeah. The new year will arrive with a bang. It's gonna go, yeah. And, and you need to sleep. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. I know it, you know, re- retreats and all that, yeah. You need sleep, uh, so that your, your body- And you need to reconnect with your family ... and you reconnect with your family, and do those things that bring life back to you.
Uh, because, you know, when you're in the ministry, every time you go down a hall somebody sticks a hose in you and sucks the life out of you . Exactly. Or a bat and hits you
Michael Easley: upside the head. Hits you with a bat to the head or something like that. But, but- So it pulls you inside out, yeah ... from a principle level too, this is the time to look...
Uh, again, I [00:11:00] think I've learned some of this in my 30s and 40s, im- applying it was harder. But to say to your leadership, "Guys, I'm gonna preach 40 Sundays a year."
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Michael Easley: Or, "I'm gonna preach, you know, X number, a- and you gotta help me." Right. "'Cause I wanna have a long run here. Mm-hmm. I wanna be all in. I don't wanna be tired and dragging."
Mm-hmm. "And these seasons wipe me out." And, you know, most of your leadership will go along with you, you know, if you're asking them to help you in that regard. Yeah. And as I got older in ministry, I, I preached less. Yes. Me too. And I was, I was a lot more willing to get away- Yeah ... and take a break. That's really hard when you're...
And if you planted the church, it's very difficult- Absolutely ... if you're the main guy. Yeah. Um, "Oh, you mean Mike's not preaching? I don't wanna go to church on Sunday. Tim's not preaching? I'm not gonna..." And you gotta live with that.
Mike Glenn: You gotta live with that. Yeah, but the, uh, the other thing is how you, how you do that.
Because one of the things that we did at, at, at Brentwood was we told the church, "We have a kingdom obligation to raise up new pastors." Right.
Michael Easley: Right. That's
Mike Glenn: great. That's one of the [00:12:00] things that God has g- given to us. That means you're gonna listen to these guys preach. Mm-hmm. Okay? But you built that into the- That, that, that-
philosophy of ministry ... that's the weaving. You didn't do that- A lot of guys will- You didn't do that
Tim Harlow: early on. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, well, I did it pretty early on. Did you? I mean, yeah. The, the, one of the goals of this church is to be a place that produces preachers.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, and you did amazing. And, uh, yeah. I mean, I was, you know, 48, 50 weeks, you know, back in the early days, 'cause it was a small church.
It's what, it's what you did. And it's what- Yeah ... it's what you did. Yeah. Um, I guess my point is I also strategically, and, and, and it's, I'm not talking about throwing Labor Day and Memorial Day and the- Right ... 4th of July to some junior person, but I'm saying you have to pick the days that are gonna be the, the most important for you to be there.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, I, I said we always did massive Christmas Eve services. The weekend before Christmas Eve, I never preached. Never ever. I always had one of the other, one of the other people on the teaching team- Mm-hmm ... [00:13:00] do that week so that I would be fresh for Christmas Eve. Yeah, that's good. And, and then, you know, again, I felt like the first weekend back was really important, so I almost always did that, and then I would figure out a way to take a break, y- some more breaks in, in January along the way.
Mm-hmm. It's about being strategic about when- Yeah ... your voice is, is necessary, and I think every church and every culture is gonna be different in that regard. That was just what we, yeah. Well, even in, even in Olympic athletes, they're finding
Mike Glenn: out the, the, the need for recovery. Yeah, exactly. The intentionality of recovery.
Yeah. It's just not being brilliant for that 10 seconds of your race. It's how- How you manage your energy going up, uh, to that load management is what they call it now Load management Haddon
Michael Easley: Robinson had this, uh, probably unsubstantiated fact he would use. He'd say, "One hour of preaching is worth eight hours of manual labor."
Tim Harlow: I've heard that stat before.
Michael Easley: And he, he... And um, so when I had four services on one, you know- Yeah. Yeah ... back to manual, I'd say, "Honey, I've already worked 24 hours today." That's right. That's right, yeah. [00:14:00] Give me a break, you know? But- But you are exhausted. You're brain- But it is true- And you're no use to anybody
from an emotional standpoint. You're no use to anybody. No, no. Um, but that rhythm is so important and, and we have talked about getting away, but put it on the calendar. Mm-hmm. I mean, put it on the calendar and try to make it non-negotiable. Yeah, there are gonna be funerals when you're gone and these kinds of things, just life has a way, but the other thing is that I don't think we seize the opportunity to get away.
You know, 'cause sometimes it's like, "Hey, I could probably get so-and-so to step in." Right. Mm-hmm. "And I could..." You know, if somebody invited me to go play golf or whatever- Right. Mm ... go do it. Um, but that rhythm, and we're, we're going from first year, uh, back to more general hygiene as a pastor, but, um, at some level there's always gonna be someone unhappy with whatever we do.
Right? I mean, I don't care how great a leader or pastor- Yeah ... you are- Oh, yeah ... in your congregation, there's always gonna be people unhappy, and that's part of being mature. Not to be rude or discourteous, but say, "I'm, I need a break, too." Yeah. [00:15:00]
Mike Glenn: As was his habit.
Michael Easley: Right.
Mike Glenn: As was his ha- there were times when Jesus wasn't available.
Michael Easley: Yep. And
Mike Glenn: I bet that- There were times they
Michael Easley: burned the- Yeah ... candle at both ends and- Yeah, yeah. So it's,
Mike Glenn: uh- And, uh, his
Michael Easley: disciples were
Mike Glenn: hungry and he says- Mm-hmm ... "I
Michael Easley: have food you know not of." Yeah,
Mike Glenn: but you, you also have to remember that those same people who, who are mad at you because you didn't have the, the 28 Christmas, uh, when your family becomes dysfunctional, they'll be mad at you about that, too.
Yeah,
Tim Harlow: yeah.
Mike Glenn: So you- Or- You, you get to choose what they're mad about.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. Or they won't be- Yeah ... and you'll be mad at them. But you know- Yeah, but w-
Mike Glenn: w- uh, what is Henry Cloud's book? Our, our buddy Henry. Boundaries. Yeah ... uh, no. This is Nine Things You Simply Must Do. Oh,
Michael Easley: okay.
Mike Glenn: All right? This one, and it says, "You can't make everybody happy-
Michael Easley: Yeah
Mike Glenn: so be sure you're making the right people mad." Uh, and that, you know, I told Henry, I said, "That is one of the most freeing things I've ever heard in my life." 'Cause I have been in a lot of meetings where somebody's mad, and I'm asking myself, "Am I okay with this person being mad?" Yeah. Are, is that the right [00:16:00] one?
Yeah. Okay, I'm okay with this person, you know, it's okay. And,
Michael Easley: and they often end up on the elder and deacon board. Yeah, yeah. That make it, that make it- Well, don't let
Tim Harlow: that happen. Yeah. Okay? Just don't let that happen. Politics is a part of ministry. That's right. That's it. I'm, I'm sorry. I, I think, I think that, um- You know, as we're heading into this season, we talked about the importance of Christmas, we talked about i- New Year's.
I mean, I think that that's what everybody needs to wrestle through. I mean, I joked about playing Call of Duty. Um, at, at some point you've got this spiritual moment where you have some freedom, you have some time, you start to address what's going on. Now, uh, you know, as the church gets larger and larger, you've already pre-planned what's going to happen and the preaching schedule- Hopefully
and everything else is, is already pre-planned. But you do have the moments, uh, personally to think about. I, I mean, I was never a big New Year's resolution guy, but you have the moments to think about, "Who am I gonna [00:17:00] be in this next year? What do I need- Mm-hmm ... to do to make things right in this church?" And I, I think your, your point, you d- you didn't say it as forcefully as I wished you would've, but you said it.
You need to make sure your leadership is on board with all of this stuff. This is not just you personally. This is you going to the leadership and saying, "Look, here's what I, here's where I think I need to be this year." Mm-hmm. "Here's what I think needs to happen," and, and get them on board. And if they're not on board, then you gotta, you've got decisions to make.
But, but it's so important as you, as you hit this time of year to think that out. I, I,
Mike Glenn: I think, I think your point is well s- well said. W- we make these decisions on a Thursday in our study or at, at home by ourselves. We never tell anybody about it. Mm-hmm. So this is important about sitting down with your leaders going, "Okay, in, in my time of reflection, here is what I have discovered.
Here's what I wanna focus on." What, getting their feedback, going, "Well, I see what you got on number five. I'd move that up to three." [00:18:00] Yeah. You know? That, that kinda stuff. Yeah. And- Well, and
Michael Easley: didn't all
Mike Glenn: of
Michael Easley: us
Mike Glenn: have an advocate? And then, and then own- Of course ... and then let them own that. Yeah.
Michael Easley: And then- And you prob- we all had advocates- Sure.
Mm-hmm ... elders or wh- or Kilo Yeah, yeah ... and say, "Hey, I need your help, man. I really need your help." Yeah. "Help me figure out how do I communicate this to the elders or those staff?" Mm-hmm. And then there's always the, you know, we're the RHIP. We're the rank has its privilege. Right. Well, then other pastors, they don't get the, you know- Right, right
and well, you gotta deal with all that. Yes. But, but if you're gonna do this for the long run- You gotta have a long plan. Yeah. It's America. Here, here's, here's
Mike Glenn: the question I learned to ask.
Michael Easley: Okay. Let's
Mike Glenn: come back to that. The, I'm sorry. No, let's go. Okay. Yeah. Go, it's good. What are you not gonna do in the new year?
Of course. 100%. Yeah, yeah. Say no more often. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Easley: That's
Mike Glenn: exactly right. And you'll get burned for it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, but, but when you look at your, your schedule, you'll look at things and go, "That did not pay off."
Michael Easley: So we had thir- There, there was no benefit in that ... yeah, we had 38 adult Bible fellowships at the zenith of this church.
So they're Sunday school classes that are... I mean, they have a teaching and a, and a- Yeah ... hospitality- Yeah, yeah ... and the whole, the whole thing. It was a [00:19:00] big deal. And I was expected to visit all those. And they had, you know, lake house trips- Yeah ... and Philadelphia Flower Show trips. And I mean, you can't do it.
No. You can't do it. And you say yes to one and, you know, and at some point you... I remember writing, I wrote goals every year. Did y'all write goals? Mm-hmm. Sure, yeah. I wrote goals every year. And one of them was to say no more often and more graciously. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, I, I, I- And you smile ... my thing was n- no of- no more often.
I didn't add the graciously part. By, by then I was so burned out and mad, I just, "No." It had a, and you're okay with being mad. And I'm okay. It had an H word in front of
Tim Harlow: it. Yeah. Um, you, I wanted to come back. You just kinda threw that out there, but we haven't really talked about an advocate on the board- Yeah
and an advocate in the, in the leadership, and I, I don't wanna gloss over that. You've got, you've got some young leaders with older boards who are trying to figure out, how do I, how do I manage [00:20:00] all this? Talk some more about that. First, First Timothy
Michael Easley: was, s- um, Paul kinda discipled me through First Tim- Second Timothy.
Mm. And, you know, a- a- and treat elder men, approach elder men- Right ... in your speech, conduct, love, faith and purity. Show yourself an example. Mm-hmm. And I thought over and over, "Okay, old people don't, we're young, we're inexperienced, we, we say flippant things- Mm-hmm ... in your speech, conduct, love, faith and purity.
Show yourself an example to them." And early in ministry, and I, I won't s- measure the efficacy of it, but I worked very diligently at, uh, uh, spending time with all my elders. I was in elder churches. You had deacons- Oh, yeah ... but I were elders. We were elders. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. And, and when you were in the meeting, I was one of.
When I was out, I was a senior pastor, but then you're employed by them. Exactly. And so it's this weird dynamic. Yeah, same as us. And, and I spent time chasing all of my elders. I'd learn their kids' and grandkids' name. I'd pray for them. I'd drop them a note of appreciation. I'm not saying it solved every problem, but I think there was a [00:21:00] appreciation.
And I, I could go back very quickly 10, 12 guys by name and say, "These guys are still my friends." Mm-hmm. Yeah. And if I needed something, I could, I could still reach out to them as- Yeah ... elders and, um, but pouring into them, and then, and they'll turn around, 'cause mature Christians do this, "How can I help you?"
Right. "What can I do for you, Michael?"
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah.
Michael Easley: Well, man, when I, when I present this, I had one gentleman, brilliant Naval guy, and he helped us for 18 months work through a vision plan, and it was brilliant. And he taught us how to, how to explain it, how to not sell it, but that's- Right. Yeah ... the word I'm using.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Take feedback, work with it, and we got some incredible things accomplished because I had another leader who was far more competent than me. Right. And at the same time, if I needed help, I could call John or I could call Bob and say, "Man, I, I need your help,
Mike Glenn: man."
Michael Easley: Mm-hmm. Well, and at the same time, when that plan
Tim Harlow: went to the elders, he was selling
Michael Easley: it, not you.
They're, they're, they're standing with you. That's,
Mike Glenn: that's- Well- ... the advocate thing. And, and your church has it, you know, anytime there's a presentation, they're [00:22:00] looking for somebody up there who represents them. Oh, yeah. To me, so. That's really good. So, so- That's right. 'Cause you came
Michael Easley: up with that Thursday.
Yeah, yeah. Right. That's right. Oh, that's Mike's hair brain idea. And, and that's, uh, it, it- Major pastor, you don't have a real job ... that ain't our preacher. He's gonna go somewhere
Mike Glenn: else. Yeah. He doesn't know that. But, but okay, Joe's up there. Joe would say, Joe's in that meeting. So when the meeting's over, I'm gonna go find Joe.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Joe's gonna go, "Yeah, this is good. You need to back it.
Michael Easley: I'm in."
Mike Glenn: So- ... when we had the
Michael Easley: big elder groups with, you know, 50 elders, I remember when things- Which is completely un-Biblical and a really dumb idea. I inherited it. I inherited it. And that's 50 elders. I inherited it. That's what he said, 50 elders.
That's un- Only 12 and one will defect. Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we had these big meetings, and there'd be some tension over a month or two deciding something, and we need to vote on it. We'd all approve it, and there'd be the, "I don't agree, but I'm going along with it," you know? And I would give this little speech.
I said, "Gentlemen, when you walk out that door and we've implemented this big change," and I mean, they're all going, "We've heard this before, Easley." I'm gonna say it again. Yeah. When they come [00:23:00] up and say, "Do you believe," for example, that- Yeah ... "t- tongues, tongues are not a gift?" "You believe that? My wife speaks in tongues."
And what you say is, even if you do, you say, "The policy of the elders is" And yes, said, "You've gotta stand united on these decisions- Yeah. Yeah ... or we get decimated- Exactly ... as a leadership." Yeah. You know, it worked pretty well.
Tim Harlow: Well, uh, but I wanna go back to that, I wanna go back to that one or, or two. Yeah.
You, y- if you're a younger person, younger leader out there right now, and you've got- It's risky ... it, it, it's risky. It's risky. But, but- Be self-somber about you ... but there will be someone that will show themself to you. 100%. Um, and they, they might not be your advocate forever. They m- they could very easily turn on you at some point- Yes
or, you know- ... or whatever. I mean, but, but having somebody that, that you feel comfortable with, j- you don't have to make it official. Doesn't have to be the chairman. It'd be great if it was the [00:24:00] chairman, if you have one. But somebody that you feel comfortable just bouncing stuff off of and doing life with and, and letting them see what's going on so that when it comes time for the bigger board to meet, you've got somebody in
Michael Easley: there.
Yeah,
Tim Harlow: yeah. And- That's
Michael Easley: huge for you ... and people will know, in my case, I had really close friends who were also elders, and people will know there's a friendship there, and that cuts two ways, too. Right. Oh, he's buddy-buddy with Mike. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so you have to navigate all this stuff. But I, I really do think we do a disservice not being connected with some of the people in the church more intimately.
Uh, I need help. Yeah. And I'm not embarrassed to say I need some help in this regard.
Tim Harlow: Don't you think the younger generations- They're probably better at it ... are better at it than we were? Yeah. Yeah, probably. Boomers were all, you know, we had it all buttoned up and we had it all figured out. Well, and there was
Michael Easley: threat, there was a real threat, though.
Well, true. There was a real threat.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You show weakness- Along, along that line, but flip it. Did you learn to listen to [00:25:00] your enemies or those who opposed you?
Tim Harlow: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Had to.
Tim Harlow: Good question.
Mike Glenn: You have to. Well, n- well, you, you have to... You don't always listen to them. You, you hear them and, but, but you don't always listen to them.
Uh, one, one of, one of the- Tell us what you mean ... growth, one of the growth areas for me was sitting down with people that I knew disagreed with me and, and helping them articulate their issue with me. Okay, I wanna be sure I understand, uh, what your issue is. Sure. And then two, asking myself, "Is any of this true?"
Mm-hmm. You know, just because they're mad doesn't mean they're wrong. So- Fair ... they could be bringing some truths to you.
Tim Harlow: Fair. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And, and one of the things that, that I learned was, be able to receive the truth of God, whoever brings it to you. Uh. Fair. Yeah. Uh, and, and be grateful, and, and be grateful. And sometimes, uh, i- in that process if, uh, an enemy [00:26:00] becomes, uh, a, a friend, uh, or, or at least less of an enemy- Right
uh, w- with that, but, um-
Tim Harlow: Well, everybody does when you listen to them. Yeah Well, if, and
Michael Easley: if the person is just ornery. You know, I'm thinking of people that were just, my initial blush was- Yeah ... I have a lot of people that were just mad in general terms. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And they had a bad marriage or a bad job or whatever, and they take it out on everyone around them.
But, you know, I, I suspect we've all had the guy, I had... He's still a friend to this day. Ralph came into my office once, I was probably at Immanuel maybe my first year or two, 1993. And he comes into my office, closes the door, and says, "Michael, either stop saying this or start doing that." And he was afraid to confront me.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Michael Easley: And I listened to him and I said, "You're right. Thank you for telling me this." I mean, the, you know, he, the- You're right ... tension just re- like he probably didn't sleep for two days before- Yeah ... coming to my office- Yeah. Yeah ... you know, telling me that. And then my follow-up is, "Will you always do this?"
Mm-hmm. "Will you be that guy?" Right, right, right. And we're friends [00:27:00] to this day. Yeah. You know? But he had the courage- Mm-hmm ... to come in to the senior pastor. And you had the ability to listen. Well, and that's why, to them it's, if they hate you or are mad at, that's where it kind of put me off, 'cause there's probably something else going on.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, nine times out of 10, the issue that brings them to you is never why they're there. I have a young friend that just became a- That is
Michael Easley: 100% true. I have a young friend that just became a pastor of a tiny church in Virginia, and he calls every once in a while to debrief. And he said, "I had the first experience.
This guy came in the office, he was a first time visitor, and he came in the office to see me. And he said, 'I really don't like your preaching. I don't get anything out of it.'" And he just kinda railed for a few minutes. I go, "What'd you do?" Carli goes, "Well," he goes, "I, I suggested a church I knew that he might like."
I said, "That's good." Yeah. Good, good. That's a good comeback. And, and he came back the next Sun- A- and he said, "We talked for probably 40 minutes." He came back the next Sunday, and afterward he goes, "That sermon was a little better." Just needed an audience. It's all about him. It did, yeah. It's all about him.
Just [00:28:00] needed to hear.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. And I think a lot of, a lot of times that's sheep, right? That. That is sheep, and that's why we don't have any. If you live long enough- No ... you're gonna sit down at
Mike Glenn: the table. But, you know, uh, and, and we'll leave, we'll, I'll, I'll, I'll leave, I'll leave with this. When E- Elijah came off of the coolest thing that ever happened- Right
when he called down fire, and you would think that'd be enough. Baal
Michael Easley: and the Asherah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You, you would think that w- if I called down fire, I would never doubt again. I would never... Oh, man. I know. That'd be bad. I know. Right? It wasn't enough for Elijah. Yeah. One woman. So, uh- Jezebel ... so he runs, and God gives him rest, and God gives him food.
Sustenance. And God gives him a friend. Mm-hmm. He gets Elisha in the next chapter. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So yeah, if you're gonna, if you're gonna live long in this work, one, you're gonna have to have your [00:29:00] rest. Yeah. Uh, and you're gonna have to have your food, and If the Lord is good, you'll have some friends. Yeah.
Lord is good. He is. The Lord is good. Hey, uh,
Tim Harlow: do us a favor, too. Um, w- we wanna hear from you. We wanna know what, you know, what, what you, uh, what you wanna hear about. I just am imagining people, somebody sitting out there going, "Wait a minute, wait a minute," you know? Yeah. "Let, let's talk some more about-" Yeah
you know- X ... X. Um, please let us know. We wanna, wanna talk about what's important, not just what we think is important.
Michael Easley: And, and if
Tim Harlow: you're listening- 'Cause we're old ... to this,
Michael Easley: we have friends that aren't pastors that are enjoying the three of us talk Right. Yeah ... for whatever reason.
Tim Harlow: Well, I hope there's some church leadership- Well, that's, that's my point is-
out there listening
Michael Easley: to it ... you hear some of this and it triggers something in your heart and head, go to your pastor and say- Yeah ... "Man, let me encourage you." Yeah. Or, or let's send these three nu- knuckleheads a question and see what they th- they'd say. Yeah. Um, they're, I don't know about you, but I do a little church consulting, you know?
And I don't feel like a consultant, but they'll call me and ask me, and I'll meet with an [00:30:00] elder or two- Mm-hmm ... or maybe go visit. And, uh, that's not my expertise, but just sometimes hearing and a neutral party outside can encourage them, and maybe we can be that for some folks listening- Yeah. Yeah ... or watching.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't care who you are, go encourage a pastor. Amen. What was the last stat- Exactly. Yeah ... I got from Barna was 42% are thinking about quitting. And, um, you know, they just- Did you guys think about quitting a lot
Michael Easley: in the early years? Oh, that's a good question.
Mike Glenn: Only on Monday morning. Only, only, uh, uh, only on days that end with Y.
Yeah. Uh, but no, I, I, I, I understood that I was ca- One of, one of, one of the novels that is un- that is half done in, in my file drawer is, is called Jonah, and it's about a pastor who, who turns left. Okay, we all have that moment- Yeah. Yeah ... right? You turn right to go to the office. Yeah. And this day he turns left, "I've had it, I'm gone."
And he drives as [00:31:00] far as he can drive, and he ends up with all these odd jobs. He's a bartender, he's a bouncer, he's this, he's, you know. And, and everybody realizes who he is. The f- folks around him know he's called, even he doesn't say anything. Yeah, yeah. And I realized early on, if I was a ditch digger- Agree
I- Interesting ... I would, I would still... So you might as well do this. Might as well. Yeah. 'Cause the world's gonna know even if you don't.
Tim Harlow: That's true. So. Yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, I thought about quitting that place- Yeah, yeah ... um, going somewhere else, but, uh, not, not leaving the call. Yeah.
Michael Easley: First two years were real hard for me, and I thought about ditching it and go back for another career.
Thought about med school, actually, very seriously. Yeah. And, um, that's a story for another time. But looking back on it, you know, what a privilege- Yeah ... to do what we did- Oh ... for all those years. Oh. I mean, heartache, broken hearts, hurt people, but think of the people that came to Christ. I mean, I, I hear from someone the other day, [00:32:00] I hadn't heard from in a decade.
Yeah. And he and his wife were not Christians. They had to get married, and they came to Christ. I mean, how often does this happen? In, in my office, they both come to Christ- Mm-hmm ... 'cause they wanted to get married. And- Yeah ... wait, first thing we ought to talk about. Yeah. They get married, and it's now, it's probably 30 years later, out of the blue, I get a connection from this guy.
Yeah, it's so cool. We're still together. We've got three kids. We still think about the time. Right. You know, I'm like- Right, right. So you don't know how the Lord's gonna use you. You just need a few of those stories- Yeah ... to keep you going. Exactly, exactly. Just a few.
Mike Glenn: And then people say, "I wouldn't do what you do."
You don't get to see what I see. There you go. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So. So
Michael Easley: stay at it. Yeah, press on. That's it. Be of good courage. That's it. We'll see you next time.
Be of good courage.
