Patrick Lencioni Breaks Down "The Working Genius"

What if burnout isn’t working too much, but working outside the way God wired you? In this episode, Mike Glenn is joined by Patrick Lencioni to talk Working Genius, church staffing, volunteers, accountability, and why healthy churches require clear expectations, courageous conversations, and leaders who embrace the gifts they don’t have. Learn how to build a healthier team culture without sacrificing truth or burning out.

• Transcript

  Pat Lencioni: you know, Spider-Man and Batman are far more Christ-like than people realize. Oh, yeah. Which is why they're so, people are so drawn to them. Mm-hmm. The selflessness. Yeah, the, the like giving up my happiness for the greater good. It's crazy when you watch those.

  I think that's why I like them, is because it's like, wow, they made, it's not just to be cool, it's actually you. They suffered for others, you know what I mean? Yeah. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Alright, lemme tell you my favorite Mike Easley story. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

  Mike Glenn: Uh, I was at Brentwood Baptist Church. He was at Fellowship, which are literally right next to each other.

  In fact, they're nce bun. So when he came to town, I called him and we became buds and uh, and so we were always calling each other with one liners and that kind of thing. So I had a guy walk in and give me a check for $12 million. Paid our church out of debt, everything. 

  Pat Lencioni: [00:01:00] Oh wait, I think I, I hope this isn't going where I think it is.

  It 

  Mike Glenn: is. He thought it, he was giving it to No, so I call Mike and say, Hey, I just had this happen and his church is in debt and they'd been trying to get this debt paid off and. So I went on and on, man, I can't believe we're debt free, we're debt free, da da da. We, we were the first church to do the debt free scream on Angie's thing.

  So, so he goes on, finally he goes, he says, why are you calling me? I said, easily. Half the fun of something good happening to you. Is your friends being miserable? 

  Pat Lencioni: I thought, I thought you were gonna tell me no. That the guy gave the money and said, oh no. Hey, wait, you're Mike. Who? No. No. Well, that'd been awful.

  No, 

  Mike Glenn: never 

  Pat Lencioni: that. Well, I can see how that you might have had some joy in that with Mike. Yeah. Are you, are you adjusting to middle Tennessee? Me. Mm-hmm. It took me, uh, it, it, it took days.[00:02:00] 

  You ha you have to go live in California for a month? 

  Mike Glenn: No, I don't. To realize 

  Pat Lencioni: how And, and, and so in my office, there's two other guys that moved here from California. Mm-hmm. And my son is moving here in two weeks. Thank you. Thank you. Dear God. He works with us. Mm-hmm. And he's moving here. It is so different.

  And just, just now, I was talking to, uh, to Carrie Newh about this in California. There is an expectation that the person next to you in line sitting at the cro, at the thing at the store, even your neighbors don't really know who you are and aren't interested in who you are. Mm-hmm. We have a need to be known.

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And 

  Pat Lencioni: here, I've been here 11 months, 10, 11, and uh, I feel like I'm known. Not known for who I'm as. Yeah. Right. But like by the neighbor, by the person I walk by on the street, people are like, [00:03:00] oh, no, I, I I ask you how are you, I actually care. Mm-hmm. And I'll stop and talk to you. 

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: To live like that when you've lived, and, you know, it was the pot of boiling water in California.

  Right. It's a, it's an extraordinary thing. And, and it, it goes into church after church. I've been going to a parish here for the last, which parish you have, you, Saint Philip the apostle, downtown Franklin. Mm-hmm. There's a new pastor there and it's like coming alive. Mm-hmm. It's a brilliant, it's a beautiful thing.

  He's, and um, after mass I feel more people there that are actually interested in talking and the caring for each other and praying for each other than at the parishes I went to back there for years and years and years. Mm-hmm. And it really is the state of the state. The culture is very real. Mm-hmm. And those are children of God.

  And God bless some, but it's hard to be fed. 

  Mike Glenn: The, the pastor at Holy Family was, was a friend of mine in Brent Woods. Oh, [00:04:00] what was his name? Ed. Ed Albertson. 

  Pat Lencioni: And where's he now? 

  Mike Glenn: Oh, he's passed away. 

  Pat Lencioni: Oh, he's passed away. Holy family. 

  Mike Glenn: He started the church and so. That place is massive now. Yeah. Well they have a fountain right in the middle of the sanctuary.

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

  Mike Glenn: Right where the the, the aisles come together. Yeah. And he said the first Sunday, they were so proud of everything. They had the fountain going wide open just, and he said. You could see it on everybody's face. He was up doing the mass and everybody at the same minute had to get up and go to the bathroom.

  It's just so that just kind of slides over the edge of the That's, that's great. 

  Pat Lencioni: The things you learn in a new building. You know what's great crazy Mike, um, is that, so Holy family is grown like crazy, right? They're building a new parish in Nolansville, right. To think that they're building new parishes in Tennessee, other parts of the country they're consolidating.

  Now, granted, they've been around for a hundred years and they had [00:05:00] one on every corner, right? And it doesn't make sense anymore. But I will tell you that the Catholic Church here is so vibrant and it feels so positive to be in a Christian place. Well, they 

  Mike Glenn: started Holy Family with an ad and the paper.

  Literally if you were Catholic and you live here, show up at Brentwood High School and a thousand people showed up. And, and, and Ed told me, he said, I was in the parking lot going go somewhere else.

  Oh 

  Pat Lencioni: yeah. It's a beautiful thing to be here. Mm-hmm. We feel such love, you know, and, and it's a crazy thing as a Catholic. My friends who are Evangelical and other Christian, there's such a, a camaraderie and a rooting for one another and a, I feel so connected here. Um, I remember my wife and I, she, we thought about moving here like, I don't know, [00:06:00] 15 years ago.

  Mm-hmm. Because she did some work Here she goes, Tennessee, it's a great place. And I, I looked it up and it was the least Catholic state in the United States, and I didn't know what that meant exactly. It just meant the percentage of Catholics, I guess. You would not know that neither in terms of what's going on in the Catholic churches and the way non-Catholics treat Catholics here.

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. But, and we've had a, we've had a lot of immigration from other states. Right. Uh, Ohio, Illinois, Massachusetts. Yep. Uh, a lot of those, we even have a positive, uh, population exchange with Florida. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah, I've noticed that. Mm-hmm. I've been meeting a few people at church who moved here to Florida. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. We didn't hear anything happened.

  They moved, they lived in the north, moved to Florida and said, it's too hot down here. And they moved halfway back where it gets cold in the winter and a little warm. At least we got the four seasons here. Yeah. So a little more this. So, so we think that's what happened. 

  Pat Lencioni: You know, all my California, I don't know if we're rolling.

  Are we rolling yet? Oh 

  Mike Glenn: yeah, we've been rolling. Oh, this 

  Pat Lencioni: is great. [00:07:00] I um, people will say, what about the weather? I'm gonna say this, I can't believe it. 'cause I used to say, oh, I don't think I can handle humidity. Mm-hmm. Or the bugs or all this stuff. Like, we haven't so enjoyed the weather and, and I've been here in the last, in the last 11 months, it's been crazy.

  We've had some cold snaps, right? And we love the variability that every day we wake up and go, it's freezing outside or it's. Thundering hot. That's 

  Mike Glenn: right. And wait till afternoon and then you, yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: And then, and it'll thunder and the rain comes down in buckets and we're like, this is life. Yeah. And it reminds us that God created all of this.

  Yes. And I will tell you, I grew up in California, not in a great weather place, but in the last 35 years I've lived in the A place where it's very moderate. Californians don't leave and go, oh, praise God for this easy weather. Mm-hmm. It's just like, you go, okay, okay. So we don't talk about the weather.

  There's not joy. There's not this appreciation of it, and you 

  Mike Glenn: never get a snow day. See, see my friends in the north come explain snow day to me, and I had to remind [00:08:00] them snow. A snow day here is a floating holiday. That's right. We're not gonna tell you when it's coming. We're gonna tell you when it is. We just get fed up and we yell snow and we go to the house.

  Pat Lencioni: We've enjoyed every kind of weather. Yeah. But, but the, the truth is, we're just so. Thankful to God for bringing us someplace in our lives that we never anticipated coming where we feel so welcomed and where there's so many other wonderful people here, and people that we need to reach out to in faith.

  Mm-hmm. But there's, there's a sense that when you say to somebody, I, I wanna pray for you, and they don't look at you crazy. Mm-hmm. You know, now we would do that in California too, and they're wonderful people there too. But generally speaking, you know, somebody once said the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

  Yeah. And in California, it felt indifference. It felt just like, I don't, it just doesn't matter to me. Mm-hmm. So it's, we just love being here. 

  Mike Glenn: For, for years we had a young adult worship service called Kairos, and it, it was, it, it, it was, it was the dog that caught the truck kind of thing. You know, we just, we, we started it.

  Some [00:09:00] friends asked me to help 'em get started it, and I, you know, I'd been at the church long enough that the babies had grown up. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. 

  Mike Glenn: So they came and said, will you help us do this? Yeah. I don't have time to help you, but I'll help you get it started. Well, 11 years later, you know, kind of, you know, it's one of those things and one of, after one of those nights, just as we were closing the service, I don't know even why I said it, other than we needed something to wrap up the service.

  And I said, Hey, if you haven't heard it today, hear it from us. We love you and it matters. What happens to you? Hmm? It matters to us. What happens to you? That's all I said three or four weeks later. I didn't say it for some reason. And there were three or four people that stayed around and said, and walked up to and said, you didn't say it tonight.

  Didn't say what, you know, you didn't say that you loved us. 

  Pat Lencioni: You know, I always say that the, the CEO is the CRO, the chief reminding [00:10:00] officer, uh, YY yes. And Jesus was. The chief reminding officer, and people think like they're, you're gonna be offended by repeating something. And like I say, no marriage ever broke up.

  'cause somebody said, my wife told me she loved me all the time. All the time. And no manager has somebody quit their company. Like, well, he told me he cared about me and wanted to know about me. And in, in our faith, it's like reminding people and of course it's not performative, it's like. I care about you.

  Mm-hmm. And I want the best for you. And that gives you permission to love on them in so many different ways. Right. But, and who, who said, you know, they don't care if what you know until you know, they know that you care. Yeah. But we should repeat that. Yeah. Uh, 

  Mike Glenn: you won't remember this probably I first heard you.

  At Belmont University a long time. Wow. In the arena, 

  Pat Lencioni: the basketball arena. In the 

  Mike Glenn: basketball arena. Wow. And you were there for some business breakfast or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and you came out and, and you started your presentation by apologizing for being a DD. [00:11:00] He said don't, I'm gonna start a story and not, then not finish it.

  I'm gonna finish it. So just hang with me and just we'll get do it stuff. That's when I said, this guy's gonna be a friend of mine. Ah, I tell people, I say, I have plenty of attention. I just don't have attention for what you think I should have attention for. 

  Pat Lencioni: Just at lunch, we were talking about this today, our friend Carrie Newh Hoff, he and I both, we were talking about a DD.

  Yeah. And so I'm too old to have been diagnosed with it as a kid. Mm-hmm. You know, it was like 20 years later everybody got diagnosed. I talked to a guy recently who said that it's not, they don't think it's a disorder. They think it's actually something that just doesn't fit with the way we raised kids.

  Right. 

  Mike Glenn: And the way we expect learning to happen in the school system 

  Pat Lencioni: and, and more boys have it than girls. Mm-hmm. And most teachers or women. And so boys couldn't sit still and not talk to their neighbor for eight hours, and it's just not in our nature. Mm-hmm. But you know what's amazing is those same things that we call a disorder.

  Are the things that make them [00:12:00] amazing at other things when they get older, right? And so it really is. It's really critical that we understand that maybe that's just not aligned with the way we structure education and discipline in youngsters, but let's not call it something. It's not, you know, we have this new tool called The Working Genius, right?

  Which is to help people discover their God given geniuses for getting stuff done. A guy called me the other day faithful guy, and said, I think there's a correlation between two of the working geniuses and A DHD. And I think he might be right. 

  Mike Glenn: Hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: One of the geniuses in working genius is called the genius of wonder.

  Mike Glenn: Right. And 

  Pat Lencioni: another one is called the genius of invention. 

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: People who wonder, sit around and ponder and they're deep thinkers. 

  Mike Glenn: That's what I, that's what I would tell my staff. I need to stare at the wall, Todd. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yes. And staring at the wall. We look at kids that are staring at the wall and we go, Hey, snap out of it.

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: And what I've realized, I have three [00:13:00] sons with wonder. Out of my four, and they, I'll be like, what's going on? And they're, and they've now been able to describe, I'm up there in my head. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know that my wife has it too. And then the next one is invention, and that's coming up with new ideas out of nothing.

  Right. Well, that requires a little bit of that also. Mm-hmm. Kids aren't rewarded in school for that. Hey, I don't even think in college. I don't even think your first job. No, no, no. In fact, you're, you 

  Mike Glenn: are, uh. You're punished for it. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yes. And so this guy said, you know something Pat? I think people with wonder and invention, my wife is WI, she has both of them.

  She spent most of her childhood bouncing on a trampoline thinking and her parents thought she was dumb and that she was just flaky. And so we judge. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah, I got in trouble all the time for not paying attention. 

  Pat Lencioni: I got in trouble for, he talks to his neighbor too much. I was like, this is a Christian school here.

  I think I'm supposed to do that money now, 

  Mike Glenn: in case you have me figure this out. We're now in the book, the [00:14:00] The six. 

  Pat Lencioni: The six types of working genius. Six types of working genius. Yes. Which I, which literally I stumbled upon by the grace of God. I mean he, five years ago, just trying to figure myself out.

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: I didn't know why I got grumpy at work a lot. And, and I had gotten grumpy for 20 odd years working in my own company with people. I love doing stuff I love. And I'd go to work and inevitably something would happen and I'd get kind of grumpy and people finally said, what's, what's the deal with that?

  Yeah. And I said, I don't know, but I wanna figure it out. And I, I figured it out for myself and I realized I was doing too much work. In an area that didn't energize you outside 

  Mike Glenn: your giftedness. 

  Pat Lencioni: And what I realized outside your giftedness, and I realized there's six areas of giftedness that are required in anything.

  Whether you're starting a company, running a church, rebuilding your house, going on vacation. There's six kinds of things that we need and we all have two that we love. 

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: Two that we're okay with and two that crush us. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: And if we're doing too much work outside of [00:15:00] the, the gifts God gave us. We're going to burn out and get really unhappy.

  That's right. 

  Mike Glenn: And I, and, and when I work with pastors, I tell them the thing that you're good at, the thing you're wired at. You can, you can run all day, all day in that. Yes. But if you're, if you spend too long doing things you're not good at, oh, you will burn out very, very quickly. 

  Pat Lencioni: And people think burnout is that you're working too much?

  No. It's that you're working too much in something you don't, and the wrong thing that God didn't intend you to do. Pastors are my favorite people to talk about the working genius or one of them. So right after Working Genius came out, a pastor wrote to us and said, after taking the Working genius, I've come to an amazing realization.

  He said, I thought I was a phony. I thought I was an imposter pastor. That sounds funny. Imposter pastor. And he said I couldn't write a sermon to save my life. My friends could walk in the woods for 20 minutes Right. And come back with a four part series. Mm-hmm. And I would grind. And I would [00:16:00] grind. And it wasn't there.

  And I just didn't know how to do it. And why is it so hard for me? Mm-hmm. And I remember and he realized he took the working genius and he didn't have I and D, which are two of the things that would've involved that. Right. With W and all that stuff up there. And I said, do you like, um, counseling people?

  He goes, yeah, I love counseling people. Are you really good at people in grief and that need? He goes, yeah. I said, yeah. Do you know your friend that loves to write the sermon? He probably doesn't love that. Right. 

  Mike Glenn: That's right. 

  Pat Lencioni: I've talked to Catholic priests who say, I love giving the homily. Mm-hmm. I don't really like doing confession.

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Because it's 

  Pat Lencioni: one-on-one. Yeah. And it's like, and it's messy. 

  Mike Glenn: It is messy and it's a different genius. Yes. Right. 

  Pat Lencioni: And, and God didn't make any pastor. To be Jesus who did, does them all. And yet you become a pastor and everybody looks at you and says, you must be good at speaking, organizing, managing counseling.

  Listening and singing. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. And no one, no one has that. No one. 

  Pat Lencioni: And the devil wants us to feel guilty and focus on what we don't do well and which is why when people do the working genius, I'm like, could you [00:17:00] celebrate the things you suck at? 'cause what? God doesn't want us to feel guilty for the things, and that's awesome.

  Mike Glenn: I, um. Uh, when our church started, uh, to, to to grow. And, uh, one of, one of my best friends that I'd ragged on a long time, whatcha gonna do when you grow up, mate. He's phenomenally successful in the business world. So he walks in and tells me one time, he says, um, I bought back some time and what do you want me to do?

  I said, what do you mean you bought back time? I told 'em my people, I wasn't gonna work anymore than this and this is what I wanna do. So I told him, I said, now Leon, I can see ZI can see where we're going. I can't see MN. I said, not only that, I don't wanna see him. Right. I said, once I see where we're going, I'm done.

  Yep. And I'm mad at you 'cause you can't see it. And so Leon said, this is what I do. I So this guy stands up in front of the church. We're going to hire a, a, an [00:18:00] administrator, a, a business administrator, executive pastor to run all the details of the church. 

  Pat Lencioni: Oh, Catholic churches suffer so much by not having executive pastors get 

  Mike Glenn: what my, now this is my friend.

  Okay. So I wanna tell you how much this guy loves me. He's in front of the church and the church, and he says to them, we love Mike. Nobody preaches or teaches better than he does. We love when he opens the Bible, but when it comes to administration, he sucks. And look at, I said, Leon, I'm sitting right here.

  He said, oh, they know it. Don't worry about it. Exactly. So, so what I tell pastors is if you will be self-aware enough to say, listen, here's how I can best serve you. I can't serve you here. That nine times outta 10, the church will rally around you. Come and say, Hey, we got you, preacher. I'm really good at this.

  Yes. And you, you'll be sitting in a meeting and people will put out the budget and it'll have all the spreadsheet and it'll be such a beautiful thing and they'll have tears [00:19:00] in their eyes. This is such a beautiful spreadsheet. And I'm going, you guys, you guys are sick. But because we had those guys who were gifted called, who thrived in that.

  Our church passed audits 20 straight years that I was there. Yeah. And it made it easy to talk about giving, because the church knew the church was faithful with the money and the pastor didn't touch it, 

  Pat Lencioni: you know? And it's funny. And then there's churches that are really good at all that stuff and aren't inspired.

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: And in other words, God, the body of Christ needs everyone. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: And all the gifts matter. Mm-hmm. And when we don't understand that, and that's the beauty of you saying. Like, it's so great that he got up and said he sucks at this. Yeah. Because like you said, people know, 

  Mike Glenn: church knows, 

  Pat Lencioni: and when you're in a leadership position, especially in a church mm-hmm.

  Celebrating the gifts you don't have mm-hmm. Is honoring the people that [00:20:00] do have those gifts. I, 

  Mike Glenn: um, the first reformation gave the Bible back to the people. The second reformation that we're in now is giving ministry back to the people. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And that's, that's something that I think that, um. I think that as a Catholic, you know what we, we talk about, um, um, clericalism.

  Yes. And that is that there's a role for the, for the pastor. Indeed. And it's so important that they're good at that, but them trying to do the things they're not meant to do. Mm-hmm. That's why I said the Catholic church needs this, this thing called the, the, um, executive pastor. Mm-hmm. So many priests are like so on fire for Jesus and they go to be a priest and then they, they love their first two or three years and they make him a pastor and they're like, 

  Mike Glenn: and they get burned out doing things they're not good at.

  Exactly. 

  Pat Lencioni: And the ones that go, oh, finally I get to be a pastor. Maybe didn't really want to be a priest. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So we need to know. But, but 

  Mike Glenn: here's the other thing, and, and, uh, [00:21:00] that, that I, that I tell pastors, I said, listen, I said, if you're trying to do everything, you are robbing your people of the blessing that God intends for them.

  Absolutely. God has created him a certain way to add certain things to the kingdom. It's in doing those things. One that they'll continue to learn to follow because there are some things you learn only in the doing. Yes. You can't read and study about 'em. You have to do them. Yes. Okay. And when they do it and it helps the body, they're going to be blessed in ways that you will never be blessed.

  Pat Lencioni: Yes. Yes. And. You need to allow them to, to love you through their gifts. Yes. A lot of pastors don't feel like mm-hmm. They should have, they should be receiving love from their right congregation and it's like, no, they want to serve you and one another. Well, and they're like, no, no, no. You don't have to do that for me.

  And it's like, give them the gift of gifting you. Jesus himself received the gift Yes. Of his 

  Mike Glenn: followers. Yes. [00:22:00] 

  Pat Lencioni: When they wiped his feet and they were like, what's it, look what she's doing for me. Yeah. 

  Mike Glenn: The, uh, the, the thing is, and I, and I, and I tell pastor, I said, you have trained them, taught them, uh, if you see somebody hurting, love them.

  If you see somebody in need, take care of, there's something you can do. Yeah. And now they have prayed, how can I help somebody? You've been laid on their, and now you tell them, one, you didn't hear correctly from Jesus. You didn't bring it to the right person, and you're discounting everything that God has done in their heart.

  And their life rather than affirming it. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. I just had a thought that I wanna recall here. If it's God's will, um, 'cause you were talking about, oh, giving them the gift of, of serving right. In the way they will, you know what I think about throughout the history of the church, the saints. Some of them did the most menial things, you know, sister to, uh, Saint Theres of lasu, who's called the little flower.

  Mm-hmm. She had this [00:23:00] small life of prayer and she did the most simple things. And she talks about, I can't do great things, but I can do small things with great love. Right? Mm-hmm. And yet we tend to think that every saint was a. Theologian. Right. Or an amazing pastor or a bishop. Most of them weren't, most of them were actually punished even in their own communities at some point.

  Mm-hmm. And so, so we don't recognize that the way we define greatness in the world is just so contrary to way to the way the church really, and Jesus sees greatness. Yeah. And it's those small things and 

  Mike Glenn: the power that, that, that comes from that. We call it the Mother Theresa rule. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah, exactly. 

  Mike Glenn: Go, go to where nobody else wants to go.

  Do what nobody else wants to do and the world will never mess with you. And in fact, the world will give you a platform. I don't know if you remember, but she was asked to speak at the prayer breakfast or something. Oh. And she pointed her finger at Bill Clinton, who was president at the time, 

  Pat Lencioni: no country that allows the killing of the unborn.

  Mike Glenn: Ah. [00:24:00] Told him to stop abortion. 

  Pat Lencioni: Praise 

  Mike Glenn: God. And her finger was that far from his nose. Everybody said, well, you don't talk to the president like that. Everybody else looked at and said, as Mother Theresa, she can say what she wants to. 

  Pat Lencioni: And she wasn't doing it to grandstand? No, no. He needed to hear it. Yeah.

  That was an act of love. 

  Mike Glenn: But because of her ministry in Mumbai with the lepers, the world gave her a platform. Yes. That gave her permission to speak to anybody anytime about anything. Yes. 

  Pat Lencioni: You know, one of her great quotes was, God doesn't call you to be successful. But to be faithful. Mm-hmm. And, and this is an interesting thing in the world today.

  Um, I, I have this belief that willfulness is the sin that abounds in the world because it's how we're raised. You know, I think in pride, it's like God's will or my will. Mm-hmm. And, and we're raised to be like, be self-made, you know, people like nobody's self-made and, and make it happen on your own. And whether great athletes, great CEOs, great anything.

  Yeah. You can be anything you 

  Mike Glenn: want to be nice. 

  Pat Lencioni: Exactly. And we hear those things [00:25:00] and it might be American or western, I don't know what it is, but we, it, it's actually the one sin. People don't even recognize as sin because when I want to do my will, and if it doesn't correspond to God's will, that is not good.

  Mm-hmm. And yet this idea of success means keep the pipe right now. I do strategy and leadership with companies, yes, have a plan, but just like they used to say at dances when you were dancing, leave room for the Holy Spirit. And the thing is, have a plan. Say, God, this is the best plan I have, right, that I can think of now.

  And, and tomorrow morning if you show me something that's better than this, I, I will go with what you want me to do. And so this whole idea of willfulness, which feels very like a good thing, a very American. It's so dangerous. Mm-hmm. It's so dangerous. And when people graduate from school, go out and change the world and do what you wanna do.

  It's like, no, no, no. Go out there and, and constantly [00:26:00] go before God and say, what do you have for me? Right. And he will have for you what he built you for. Mm-hmm. But it's this surrender thing. I mean, this is the, this is the challenge of life, isn't it? 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Every day. 

  Pat Lencioni: Every single day. And it's so counter-cultural and probably counter.

  Human. Yeah. In many ways. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. One of the reasons I want to talk to you today, pat, is uh, the pastors we're talking to and who'll be watching this video, uh. Our, our leading staff, hiring staff, calling staff and, and Pat we're really bad at it. Oh, well, we we're, we're not me. I'm perfect. No, I know, I know. But, but, but you, but you have written a lot of books, like The Five Mistakes of, and I still struggle.

  Pat Lencioni: It's really important to hear. It's just like a pastor going, don't think I'm perfect. That's right. Yeah. I need to confess my sins too. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: And I make most of these books come from. Me making mistakes myself. That's 

  Mike Glenn: right. Yeah. So don't think that I found it was interesting, you know, when I read the, the, the six types of genius that it came out of your own recent [00:27:00] journey 

  Pat Lencioni: Yes.

  Mike Glenn: Of, of 

  Pat Lencioni: grumpiness frustration struggle. Mm-hmm. So often that's where we learn the most is when we're at our weak point. But anyway, so you're saying these pastors you said we're not good at it. Yeah. You know, I think the truth is. It gets back to what we were talking about before, and that is surrender and humility.

  Nobody's great at this. Nobody is great at it 'cause we're human. Mm-hmm. And, and, and management. I've come to the conclusion that it's ministry. Managing human beings is one of the great ministries in life. 

  Mike Glenn: Yes. 

  Pat Lencioni: And you know, think, think if you're doing youth ministry someplace, like a guy that works for me, Cody, he, he's a, so many of the people I hire have a degree in ministry of some kind.

  It's, it's crazy. And people are like, how come you got hired? He goes, I don't have a degree, degree in youth ministry. So, but he said he really wanted to make a difference in people's lives. And then he said, wow, when you manage somebody. You're with them every day for like eight hours helping them, and [00:28:00] that's a ministry too, 

  Mike Glenn: especially with the Gen Z.

  They need the Gen Z Parenthood is looking for someone, not who will manage me, but who will somebody who will coach me. Yes, in the context of my life goals and how this job. Serves my life goals. 

  Pat Lencioni: And, and, and, and I think that's the great thing about Gen Z is they've come into this knowing that I have to integrate my life and my work.

  Right. You know, my dad was like, no, your work, you go to work, you work, you don't bring your life into it. You do this and then, and you 

  Mike Glenn: come home and you don't ever talk about your work. 

  Pat Lencioni: Right. And then I think I was part of that transition in, in my writing and stuff. Mm-hmm. All of my books are about people and their life, and they're all these things.

  And now they're coming in and going, listen, my life comes first. Mm-hmm. And now how does this integrate with this? Right. And I think that's. Largely good. I mean, yeah, there's those people that come in and all they wanna talk about is their cat or, mm-hmm. Or, you know, I need another day. And maybe those people need to go get a little tougher.

  But generally speaking, people are looking for how do, how does this [00:29:00] work make me a better human, a better child of God? Yeah. And we as managers, leaders, 

  Mike Glenn: especially work in a church. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yes. 

  Mike Glenn: Especially work in a church. Well, and gosh, 

  Pat Lencioni: you know, John Ortberg once told me, he said, people. Shouldn't work in a church that need the job.

  No. But, but they, what they come to need is they want to heal. They wanna, they wanna live out their ministry to others and be ministered to in the process. And so being a manager at a church is such a high calling. Yeah. And such a heavy one because man, when you make a, when you make a mistake managing people at a software company, you go, ah, I shouldn't have done that.

  Yeah. When you do it at a church, it, it really jeopardizes there. Their sense of what faith is, their self 

  Mike Glenn: understanding, their understanding of their calling, all of that which, which wow. It's an imperative that we do it well 

  Pat Lencioni: and if you're the pastor of a church. Mm-hmm. I was just talking to a pastor Catholic recently and I work with all kinds, which is great, and he needs to fire somebody.

  And [00:30:00] it's so apparent and it, it's apparent to his staff, it's apparent to the people who work for this person. It's apparent to the people in the congregation. Mm-hmm. He just can't do it. And I said, I know it's hard because you feel like, and he said, well, Christmas is coming up. And you know, and it's like this person is hurting so many people and they're hurting too.

  'cause they know they don't fit. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: And it's so hard and I have a lot of heart for pastors that go, but I am their spiritual leader and an organizational leader. And, and gosh. If you're, if you're wrestling with that air on the side of mercy and grace, but so often we are way beyond mercy and grace. 

  Mike Glenn: Well, a couple of things.

  One, no one has permission to hurt the sheep. 

  Pat Lencioni: Right? 

  Mike Glenn: So if they're hurting the sheep, then that's one thing. The other thing is if they're not happy, then let's help 'em get somewhere where they are happy. 

  Pat Lencioni: Mm-hmm. 

  Mike Glenn: The best friend I can be to you is, is [00:31:00] let's just be honest. It's not working. So let's be proactive.

  I'll walk with you through it. We got a whole church of people who are willing to help you in this transition. 

  Pat Lencioni: See, that's, you are exactly right. Mm-hmm. And people think it's a buy, sell decision. No. And it's not. It's like, you know something. And in this case, like they have core values, right? And she doesn't meet them.

  And it's like, you know, let us help you figure out a place. You're a very corporate person. You came from a corporate world, right? And you wanna do things that way. We're very pastoral and joyful. Mm-hmm. And, and we know that's hard. I think you belong in a place where your corporate gifts will be valued.

  Mm-hmm. And it's a frustration for people Here, let us help you and let us love you through that. And I think 90% of the time you can make that happen. 10%. They might be so hurt that they're like, I reject this and I'm leaving. Right, right, right. But eventually they come back and go, yeah, that was the best thing that ever happened to me.

  Sure. But you're right. We think it's a, it's an either or where we have to keep 'em or let 'em go, and [00:32:00] then we keep 'em and they continue to be miserable. Right. And then we have to own the fact that we kept them in their misery. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. And you made everybody else miserable too. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. Here's a question I have for you and for everybody out there.

  So you're the pastor, you're the shepherd. 

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: You have people that are doing ministry in your church. Mm-hmm. Employees, they're part of the shepherding team. 

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: They, and you are there to shepherd the congregation. How do you see them both as a member of the congregation and a co shepherd? In other words, this gets back to the John Ortberg thing, and that is sometimes I think that we prioritize shepherding the co shepherds.

  Even when they're maybe, um, repelling the congregation, the sheep. Yeah. You know, 'cause that, that co shepherd is both part of the sheep and a shepherd. Mm-hmm. And it's so hard because [00:33:00] like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I need to give them ministry. But they're supposed to be co ministering. And if they're not good at co ministering, it's a real difficult thing.

  Well, 

  Mike Glenn: first of all, let's, let's make sure that, that they're in a place that's in alignment with their gifts. 

  Pat Lencioni: Right? Yeah. Perfect. 

  Mike Glenn: That, that, that, that's the first thing. Let's sit down and understand how God wired you. Yes. And uh, yes. And then let's put you in, in a, in a, in a, in a place where, where we can do that.

  Right. Uh, you know, I, yeah, I told you about my, my friend Leon. Well, Leon, because he was working for free, because he was a successful businessman, got away with murder in our church. He could make any decision. He could lop off anything. He could shut down anything. And the church never said a word 

  Pat Lencioni: in a good way or a bad 

  Mike Glenn: way.

  In a good way. Because if he, he, he did things like, let's put this event up of how many man hours does it take? Okay. To have. So he didn't get away with 

  Pat Lencioni: murder? [00:34:00] No, no. He could go in without fear of, without fear of anything like that. 

  Mike Glenn: Got stuff that would get me fired. Yes. And so he would, he would come in and go.

  Uh, okay, what, what are your goals? And they would list out five or six goals. And he says, what if you've only got money for three, what will you do? Right? And I said, well, here's the three we do. He said, okay, let's do those three. Forget the others. 

  Pat Lencioni: And were you, they'd go, but what about the people that benefited from the other two?

  Mike Glenn: Yeah, I'm sorry. It was Leon on. I, I wasn't, you know, and 

  Pat Lencioni: and that was his job. 

  Mike Glenn: And that was his job. And it worked. Yeah. Famously. Oh. But they got mad. They would come to me and go, Hey, this one stuff. And I said, you need to understand Leon's doing exactly what the church needs him to do. Right. And, uh. And if we were smart, we're gonna listen to him.

  And because he does some things we don't do. So one, be sure they're in the, in, in the right place. And, and then when, when someone is doing ministry in the church, they still need your oversight, coaching, [00:35:00] uh, correction, encouragement. You did that really well, right? Okay. Okay. Now, when somebody comes up and says this to you, let's, let's work on, let's work on tact a little bit on how, right?

  Yes. On how, on how we, on how we say that, 

  Pat Lencioni: you know, I love this conversation and I'm doing what I told you before where I jump around, but you've inspired me on something. You know, one of the most important things I think I've learned in my entire career of doing this is something that's very simple and it has to do with managing people.

  If a person's performance is not great, the number one thing we should do. We have to understand them and understand their gifts and all that. Mm-hmm. We should go tell them, and then the next time that they don't do the right thing, we should tell them again. Mm-hmm. And the next time they do it, then we should tell them again.

  Mm-hmm. Here's what I'm trying to say is this. That doesn't happen. Churches are the worst at this too. Oh gosh. Yeah. And when we don't tell them, we are not giving them a chance to make the kid the critical decision that that's theirs to [00:36:00] make. Like, do I want to get better? Work on this, or do I wanna find someplace that suits me better?

  Right. And, and it's dignity to let them make that call. Mm-hmm. And the only way to give them that opportunity is if we're constantly saying, Hey Bob, you remember that thing we talked about? You did it again. Mm-hmm. So I, I really need you to, to change that. And then the next time he does it, he knows, like, he eventually, if you keep telling him, he's gonna go, gosh, there's nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide.

  I better get better at this, right? Or I better find a different place where I can survive. A buddy 

  Mike Glenn: mind told me is that everybody is worthy of great supervision, 

  Pat Lencioni: right? 

  Mike Glenn: And, and so many times, especially volunteers in the church, 

  Pat Lencioni: oh, 

  Mike Glenn: I want to talk about this. Don't know what the job is, don't know what success looks like, don't know if they're doing it right or wrong, and nobody talks to them.

  Pat Lencioni: Yep. 

  Mike Glenn: About it. Because, because as a pastor, I need to fill a slot. Yes. So if you're walking down the hall and I need a preschool, I'm gonna [00:37:00] grab you and throw you in preschool and say, I have filled that slot. 

  Pat Lencioni: But to be fair, they have to be breathing. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. You fog up a mirror in front of the nose. And I, and I tell, you know, I used to tell the church, I said, now what happens when, when we do that one, I've got a, I've got an adult who walks in there saying, I promise Mike I'd do this for a year.

  I've only got 51 more Sundays to go. Yeah. I've only got 50 more Sundays to go and they start counting it down. Now when they reach the end of that, they're gonna make a couple of promises. One, I'm never walking down this hall again. Two, don't make eye contact with my That's right. I'm never going to do anything again.

  They just don't drop out of what they're not good at. Yes, they drop out. Oh, but the critical thing is. There is a little boy and a little girl in that class who want to know why this adult doesn't love them. Oh man. 

  Pat Lencioni: It's so true. [00:38:00] Volunteerism is one of the biggest problems in churches and it's, and in all organizations that do volunteer, but it's so important in churches for what you just said.

  And the problem is we have this crazy idea about volunteers. We look at paid staff and we go, well, they're paid, so we don't need to inspire them. They have a job. These people that are volunteers are not. Paid. Mm-hmm. So we can, we don't have to, we can't expect a lot from them. And if as long as they'll fill the seat, that's good enough.

  Mm-hmm. And we have to turn that upside down. Oh, we should look at our paid staff as though they're not paid and say we have to find the right fit and inspire them. Mm-hmm. Around the big picture of what they're doing. 

  Mike Glenn: Right. 

  Pat Lencioni: And the volunteers, we have to treat them like paid staff and say, same way, let's have high expectations, same 

  Mike Glenn: way.

  You know, 

  Pat Lencioni: where I learned this at the makeup and clear 

  Mike Glenn: expectations, 

  Pat Lencioni: and 

  Mike Glenn: here's what it looks like 

  Pat Lencioni: and. Encourage them not to do it. If they're not ready. If they're not willing to. Yeah. 

  Mike Glenn: And give 'em permission. And I've had, you know, I've got great stories. Uh uh, you know, a friend of mine stopped me one time.

  He said, you need to [00:39:00] know when we joined your church. I said, okay. He says, do you know Bobby? And one of one of the, I said, I said, yeah, I know Bobby. He said, he loves my little boy. And my little boy is on the spectrum. Everywhere we went, he could never fit in. He walked in, Bobby latched onto him and they're best buddies.

  And when my little boy got in the car and said, we can we go back to Bobby's church? Wow. You know, I said, I said, please don't tell me. I said, when I tell Bobby that it's gonna make him so hard to live with. So, but, and Bobby, just so you know, it's Jesus church, not yours, but, but Bobby had a knack. Oh. A gift.

  Full uncomfortable kids, he could find them in any room and be their best friend. It was an amazing thing to watch, uh, and, and being able to, to release Bobby and, and [00:40:00] call Bobby going, Hey, I got a kid coming Sunday. You need to pay attention to 'cause 

  Pat Lencioni: get this. I wish, I wish we had a room full of people working at churches, but I'm, I'm envisioning them watching this right now.

  So. At my church, you know, over the years, every fall the new kids are coming in for faith formation. Mm-hmm. We call it, you know, school, church, school. And people are like, if you would like to vol, we need volunteers. Yeah. For the youth program. If you would like to volunteer. And you know what's the amazing thing about that?

  If they said this, we have the this program coming up. If you're really good. Working with kids and you have a heart for, for helping them know Jesus, and you are really high standards and want to go, come do things with the same level of excellence as you would in any other job, then we want you to work here and if not, please don't volunteer.

  Mike Glenn: Please stay away. 

  Pat Lencioni: You know what happens in that case, the good volunteers go, 'cause I never volunteered that. Right? Because I knew what would happen. You'd go there and it's so mediocre. That's right. [00:41:00] And if you do try to do excellent stuff, you're swimming upstream and you feel like you're, that's right.

  You're, you're gonna be expelled like a virus grabbing the 

  Mike Glenn: pot kind of thing. Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: The good ones will, will step up and the others will leave. Mm-hmm. And guess what? The parents are gonna go, I want my kids in that program. 

  Mike Glenn: Well, you know, I, you talk to people who are gifted and they will tell you you have to get 'em in preschool, Mike, by the time they're five, it's too late.

  Huh. Okay, now you talk to somebody else gifted? No. No. You gotta get 'em in middle school or high school. By the time get, they get outta high school, it's too late. It all depends on the, on the they. They will have the gift of teaching, but will have the passion. For a particular age group, I want 'em all to think they're 

  Pat Lencioni: right.

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. And all of them are right. I love that. And you have to put 'em in the place where that matches. 

  Pat Lencioni: And you know, imagine the opposite of that is like, it's just preschool. It doesn't really matter. They're just gonna color. They're gonna color pictures of Jesus. And it's like [00:42:00] they'll get 'em in junior high.

  That's right. And the junior high is like, oh, they'll get it when they have kids. Yeah. It's so true. And, and that's why excellence goes with our faith. Mm-hmm. And mediocrity is not of God. No. And what the worst thing that can happen in our churches is we have lower, when I work with church staffs, I always say, Hey, what do you think is more important, this job you have?

  Or that, that software company down the street, Microsoft or whatever else, right? And they never say it right away. They're always like, well, uh, I guess ours. I'm like, of course, yours. Mm-hmm. That's how well they can do a spreadsheet. This is about their eternal salvation. Right. So I have a question for you.

  Why would you ever have lower standards for employment than them? Why do you tolerate that lady sitting at the front desk that's kind of grumpy? Yeah. Yeah. She's worked here for years, but when people come here, they don't feel welcome. They don't see Jesus in that. Why would you ever settle? This is actually more important, and, and that doesn't mean get rid of that woman.

  That [00:43:00] means go and inspire her. Find out what she's good at. Raise her up right, find the right role for her, and if there's not one for her. Then help her. You don't 

  Mike Glenn: get to the place where she's supposed to be. 

  Pat Lencioni: Right. And, and yet so often we go, oh, well what can you do? It's, I know what you can do. 

  Mike Glenn: You 

  Pat Lencioni: can do a lot.

  You can manage them. That's right. Yeah. And I love talking to people about this. 'cause nobody ever are church staff is like, you're right. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well you know this, the reason we don't do more of it is, you know. One of Jesus's consistent prayers was, how long do I have to put up with these people?

  Pat Lencioni: You know? Or the forgiveness one. That's right. That's right. Seven. Seven, right. That's right. Not eight. Yeah, 

  Mike Glenn: that's right. So, so, you know, the idea that I've gotta go sit down with, with the student minister again and talk about the same thing again, it's easier just to just to call somebody and complain about my youth minister.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or my student, or my worship leader, or whoever. That is on my short list that [00:44:00] week, rather than be the friend in Christ and call them to their best self. 

  Pat Lencioni: So in the five temptations of a, in the five dysfunctions of a team, one of them is accountability. That's the fifth dysfunction and it's the most common one.

  And in churches it's by far the most common conflict and accountability. Right? 'cause it's like that's not Christian. It is. And what I came, I, I was terrible at this. I did not like to hold people accountable, like we'd agreed on something. Their standards weren't high enough. I hated telling them, and I used to think it was 'cause I was kind.

  And it's the day I realized that it was ultimately an act of selfishness. Right. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah, 

  Pat Lencioni: it was like, I'm not doing this for their benefit. I would say, well, I don't want them to feel bad. It's like, no, no, no. I don't want them to blame me for feeling bad. And when I realized the next time I saw somebody's performance suffer and they needed to be told and I didn't do it, I was committing really, I mean, let's just call it, that was a sin of selfishness.

  That's right. Because they're gonna suffer that consequence at some [00:45:00] other point, and it's gonna be worse than if I talk to them. So I'm actually saying I care about myself more than them. Mm-hmm. 

  Mike Glenn: Well, I tell, I tell, uh, I said Baptist churches, I said, you know, I said, it's funny to me. You will see a young person struggle and you won't say anything until they're picked up or dead, and then you'll want to put 'em on the prayer list.

  Oh wow. That's really. You know, it's funny, but, but you won't step into the 17 year old's life when you see the mistakes they're making. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. You know what's funny? I, I spoke at this conference and it was a group of, it was, it was kind of about politics, but it was also about faith. But, um, and it was about I, and they, they asked me to talk to them and, and I spoke about courage and I said, courage.

  There's a lot of different kinds of courage. The first one is you gotta look in the mirror and actually have the courage to face what's true. And before God. The other one is public courage, where people stand up and they give a speech on a stage they run for office, or maybe they're a pastor and they preach [00:46:00] something, and you have public courage.

  But the kind of courage that's lacking in society today. And people are like, well, how do we get people to vote better or, and, and or to live their lives better? And I said, interpersonal courage is what's lacking the most is when you're in a conversation with somebody at a restaurant or at work or on the street corner or somebody that you're actually in a relationship with, and they say something that you don't think is good.

  And the courage to say, Hey, I have to tell you. I don't think that's true. Right. I think that you should think about that, and here's why. That's the thing in our, people will troll each other on the internet or yell at each other on a street, right? Or, or maybe even give a speech. But will they sit across the lunch table from somebody and say, Hey, I, I'm afraid I can't agree with that.

  I don't think that's something Jesus would want you to do. And, and, and I'm not judging you, but I'm telling you that's really a problem. 

  Mike Glenn: And living in Nashville with the, the Christian music scene and uh, with. With all of the public failings of, uh, several very famous ministers and all sitting with a group of [00:47:00] pastors and I, and we were talking about that and I said, listen, I said, I said, you go to these guys and you watch 'em.

  I said, they will have violated several fundamentals. Like, like one very famous evangelist was not in a local church for 25 years. We know that. So that's just one example that's cut off from the body of Christ. Yes. And so my, my question to them is, who didn't love this guy enough to pull him aside and say You're going to crash and burn?

  'cause nobody. Can run the way you're running. Why didn't anybody love them enough to say? 

  Pat Lencioni: And, and I, I know it's a rhetorical question. Yeah. And I think the thing, what it comes down to is this, it's that they didn't want that person to reject them. Mm-hmm. Or to feel judged, even if your intentions were pretty, I'm not judging you, and you can say that to somebody.

  I'm not judging you, I'm concerned for you. Right. But it's [00:48:00] like, oh, if they don't respond well. That and it's essentially, it's selfish, right? I don't wanna be excluded. You know, there's a book called It's Not Live, not By Lies. No, I think it is. 

  Mike Glenn: That's right. 

  Pat Lencioni: Yeah. And, and he talks about this, I think it's fascinating.

  He said the Soviet Union didn't take over all the, I mean the Russia, the Soviet Union, all those countries by force. Mm-hmm. They did it by excluding them from privilege. They said, if you don't join the party and agree with what we believe, you're not gonna be able to go to the cinema. You're not gonna be able to get the groceries you want.

  You're not gonna be this. We think it was like at a, with a bullet to their head. And that's what happens. We don't wanna be excluded. We don't want somebody to go, I don't like that guy anymore 'cause he called me on something. And that desire to be liked, as silly as that sounds, it goes back to middle school.

  Prevents people from doing the, the things that we know we should. And I want that famous evangelist to like me and to be part of That's right. 

  Mike Glenn: I wanna be, I wanna be in his, his, his [00:49:00] entourage and all that. Right? I don't wanna be the one that's excluded because. I wouldn't do that. 

  Pat Lencioni: So many of the greatest people in the world's history are the ones that went to somebody and said, I have to tell you this.

  Yeah. And sometimes they were punished, but you offer that to Jesus and you go, okay, Jesus, I I did what you wanted me to do and I take this. Mm-hmm. Wanting to be liked and included. That is probably, and I love it here in Nashville. It's great. Um, and I, I like not being too. Included in everything. Right. You know what I mean?

  But I can just imagine the pressure, the social pressure that some people have to not be neglect or rejected. Right? 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: Boy and a pastor. Oh my gosh. The other thing is when a person leaves your church 'cause you speak truth. 

  Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. 

  Pat Lencioni: So many churches are not speaking truth. Because they just don't want people to leave.

  You 

  Mike Glenn: know, several years ago, the, the church, uh, the state, uh, put on the, the, uh, the ballot, the state lottery. [00:50:00] And, uh, we didn't have a state lottery several years ago. And, and, and I preached a sermon that you have the, the, the calling from Christ to vote against this thing. And I had people leave the church.

  And so people tell me that was real brave, Mike. That was real brave. I said a Baptist preacher against gambling. That, that, that's the standard of bravery. Now, 

  Pat Lencioni: I haven't had had the platform to do this yet. I don't know if I'm, but do you know what's going on right now in our society? And I'm not a Baptist, but I mean, yeah, we both.

  Gambling of youth on sports. 

  Mike Glenn: Oh gosh. 

  Pat Lencioni: And we have our sports idols encouraging kids to do this, 

  Mike Glenn: telling us. And you can bet on any aspect of that game. 

  Pat Lencioni: Right. The first pitch is a ball or so, I mean it's, it's absolutely about, and they go like, Hey, do it for free. We'll give you $50. Yeah, 

  Mike Glenn: we'll give you $50.

  Pat Lencioni: It's an addiction like drugs. 

  Mike Glenn: And nobody's 

  Pat Lencioni: talking about this. Oh 

  Mike Glenn: yeah. And it is ruining [00:51:00] lives 

  Pat Lencioni: and every, every pastor at the very least, 'cause this isn't like going out there on a limb, it's like, Hey, do we realize we're actually okay with this? Mm-hmm. And you know something, if every pastor and every person that goes to church said, wait a second, I think this is bad, society would change.

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Well, I told 'em, I said, you have to understand, the state is now in the business of encouraging immoral behavior. 

  Pat Lencioni: And it's absolutely true. 

  Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. And of course they used to ask me, they said, now listen, we know you took the big stand on it, but do you ever buy a lottery ticket? I said, no, 

  Pat Lencioni: no, I don't either.

  Mike Glenn: And they said, I said, no, really, if you back in Chattanooga and you get some gas, you got a dollar left over. You don't. I said, no. And they said, why not? And I said, because I would win the thing. Okay, but I wouldn't win enough to go to Tahiti and never see you guys. I'd win. I'd win just enough to be on the front page of the paper.

  Baptist preacher wins $20,000. You know? That's that sarcasm. Yeah. [00:52:00] So that's what I would do. That's the way God would punish me. I'm gonna let you win it. Here we go. Yeah, 

  Pat Lencioni: he would. And then you'd go like this, okay. I won. God, I'm giving it all to charity. 

  Mike Glenn: Giving you, yeah. 

  Pat Lencioni: Maybe half of it. Yeah, that's, that's right.

  Yeah. Three quarters, maybe 

  Mike Glenn: half of it. That's right. Yeah. You don't need all this money. Oh my gosh. Exactly. The 

  Pat Lencioni: worst thing that could happen. But, but it's so true. And it's like, and we have to add, this is the other thing too. I was talking to a, a, a big evangelical preacher with multiple churches and he was talking about growth.

  Mm-hmm. And like, we wanna grow. And, and that growing our ability to teach people about Jesus is fantastic, but growing at the expense of truth is actually not good. 

  Mike Glenn: Oh no, that's. 

  Pat Lencioni: Numbers are not the indication, which is why, and I love this 'cause as a business person, we love to measure things. And the number of clicks you get, the number of likes you have, even the number of people that are coming to church, it's really a number that only God knows and how many people are really bringing Jesus into their life.

  And if you have 100 people in your church and they are really knowing Jesus and living it, and you have [00:53:00] 1,000 people in your church, but they just like the coffee and the music. And that you're telling them things that don't challenge them. One of those churches is successful and the other's not, and we know which one it is.

  I 

  Mike Glenn: preached on tithe one time and I said, I know y'all think I'm being brave. Here's the reality. 25% of our people give about 85% of our budget, which means 75% of you could get up and leave right now, and we wouldn't miss. So I'm pretty safe.

  Pat Lencioni: They 

  Mike Glenn: get your humor in what I'm saying. I'm not, I'm not, is not as dangerous as you think it is, right? That's right. 

  Pat Lencioni: I love that. 

  Mike Glenn: What is it you want to, you wanna be sure Our pastors here. 

  Pat Lencioni: Well, here's, here's one. We as a Catholic. There's something going on in the world. The Holy Spirit is moving, and I feel it.

  Mm-hmm. And I see it the new world, this post-Christian world, [00:54:00] the, the kind of pastors that are watching this mm-hmm. And the Catholic priests, there's, there's a new unity coming. I don't know how it's the Holy Spirit does that, but, but let's just love each other and embrace each other and realize and learn from each other.

  Mm-hmm. And there's truth that we can learn from. So that I, I want to encourage them that, the other thing I want them to do is realize that. For years, Dave Ramsey has had this wonderful program called Financial Peace University, right? And it drew people to to learn about their finances in a godly way, so then they could know like, oh God has, God wants me to live a better life.

  Working genius can do that too. In other words, when you say, I want my congregation to know who you are for volunteering and just to know how God wired you. Let them be the conduit for that. And we found that churches are the best people for doing this. Mm-hmm. People trust their church. So if you can do that, I'm, I'm sure there's discount codes out there for churches that we have or something like that, but it's, you know, 

  Mike Glenn: and when people, when people [00:55:00] show up to worship coming out to celebrate what they saw God do Thursday.

  Right. Rather than it being a participant, you know, a spectator sport. The difference in the world. Exactly. You can't tell the two of us have a DD Can you? You would never pick that up. This is Pat Lin. I am Mike Glenn and this is, what are we calling this thing now? The Engaged Church Network. The I got. But this, they call it the podcast something else.

  Pat Lencioni: I love this. We just rename. I love it. 

  Mike Glenn: Just read.

  Pat Lencioni: And I'll give you a clean ending. Yeah, I was gonna say, I kinda like this one. That's right. Yeah, we're done. We're really big on branding. The [00:56:00] name is everything.

  I've enjoyed this immensely. Empowered leaders in Thriving 

  Mike Glenn: church. Empowered leaders. You wanna hit that outro again? Uh, hit it again. Okay. Ah, you can't tell. We have a DD Can you, uh, this is Pat Linney. I'm Mike Glenn. This is Empowered Leaders and Thriving Churches of Podcast from the Engaged Church Network.

  Thanks for being with us. We'll see you next time. 

  Pat Lencioni: Beautiful touchdown one edit.