Bringing the Gospel to Every Table, with Ian Simpkins
Ian Simpkins joins Mike Glenn to talk about what it looks like to lead a local church with a missionary mindset, where discipleship isn’t something you attend once a week, but you live at every “table” God places in front of you. Ian shares the surprising story of how he moved from a thriving ministry in Chicago to The Bridge Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, and why the people, marked by humility and hunger made it impossible to ignore God’s invitation.
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Mike Glenn: Well, you're an older brother, I'm an older brother. Yeah. The, the unwritten rule of older brothers is I can beat my little brothers and sisters. You can't. Absolutely not. That's right. That's right. Now, now I don't care what he did. Yep, right. He probably deserves a beating. That's right. And if, and if he does, I'll give it to him.
Sure. That's right.
Three boys? Yes, sir, three boys. Ah, cool thing about having boys is you can do whatever you want to and tell your wife it's for the kids. That's right. I, I don't even like golf. Yeah. Boy loves it. No, they're
Ian Simpkins: the best. Yeah. It's constant chaos- Oh, Lord ... that's for sure. But see,
Mike Glenn: we had twins. We have two boys. No kidding.
Yeah. Right on. [00:01:00] And, but, but the end thing, interesting thing about twins is there's a third entity. Hm. There's Chris and there's Craig. Mm-hmm. And then there's the boys. Oh, I believe that. Which is an entity that only happens when they're together. Yeah, I believe that. There's a different energy, there's a different attitude- Yes
that you only see when they're together. So Jeannie and I had a code. "Well, what happened? Well, the boys." Well, okay, that explained it. That's amazing. Dot dot dot, say no more. That's right. That's right. I get it. The boys. So good. So with that, so... Now, you've been, uh, uh, at The Bridge four years. Yes, sir. Uh, what, what we love to do is talk about church, uh, local church ministry, what, uh, how you do it in your expression, uh, and, and how you're doing it particularly in Middle Tennessee.
Oh, yeah. The EC and it's focused on, uh, on the Middle Tennessee thing. Yeah. So, so you're in Chicago, you got a successful ministry, uh, and, uh, and all of a sudden you [00:02:00] get a call from The Bridge. Yeah. Now, it, it, it, now is The Bridge, I can't... Is it in s- uh, Thompson Station, Spring Hill, or is it in Franklin? Uh, Spring Hill and Columbia.
Spring H- yeah. Yeah. Okay. But, but it's Spring Hill is the- That's the, that's the first campus. Yes, sir ... it, it, that was the first campus- Yes, sir ... the campus that I would be most familiar with. Uh, so you get a call from Spring Hill, Tennessee. That, that... And you're going, "What?"
Ian Simpkins: Yeah, that's exactly my reaction. I got an email from a guy named Stone.
Uh-huh. Which at first I was like, "Well, that's not even a real name." Right. So that's, I don't, I don't know what this is. And, uh, Stone, I love Stone to death. Now, knowing him better now, this initial email makes sense. Right. He's like, "Hey, you don't know me from Adam. Uh, we came across a sermon clip of yours randomly."
Mm-hmm. "Here's who we are. Any interest?" And I, I just wrote back, "Man, I'm super flattered." Mm-hmm. "Really honored. Hard pass." Mm-hmm. Like, we're not- Yeah ... I'm, I'm, I'm from Detroit. My wife's from Chicago. I'm, I'm just a, a Midwest boy. We were, we were loving the [00:03:00] church we were at. I had a, a radio show at the time.
Like, we were... That's where Katie's family is from. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and Stone was very gracious. He said, "Totally get it, but, uh, we're gonna be in your neck of the woods in a couple of weeks. Would love to grab coffee and talk shop if you got time." And I'm so naive to this- Yeah ... stuff. I was like, "Yeah, I love coffee.
Let's, let's hang out." And then apparently that's when they bought their tickets. Yeah. Flew up to Chicago and- Everybody's
Mike Glenn: standing around, they went...
Ian Simpkins: I had no clue. I had no clue. I just have no savvy when it comes to that stuff. So that's how that conversation- Yeah ... began with The Bridge. What attracted you?
Oh, man, so much. You know, when they flew up, we had coffee and they said, "Hey, can we at least fly you and your wife down just to spend a weekend with us?" And we had just had a baby. Mm-hmm. So it was sorta like, oh, man. A free vacation. Honestly, I'm not proud of that, man, but, like, a chance to get out of the house.
That's exactly right. Yeah, you got it. So we, we flew down, and we- The, the Lord works in all kind of ways ... no kidding, man. Well, and we... Honestly, this will sound cliche [00:04:00] We were blown away by the people. Mm. Lots of churches have, have good music and good preaching- Right ... and cool facilities. We were blown away by the people.
There was like a, not just a welcome, but like a, like a, a humility, a genuine hunger that I, I just ha- I hadn't experienced, to the point where, you know, Katie and I would, would drive back to the, the hotel after, you know- Mm-hmm ... a conversation with the search team, and both of us were like, "I think, I think we need to talk about this.
I, I think we need to consider this more than we were planning on it." Mm-hmm. Which is pretty unnerving- Mm-hmm ... because we came down to sort of politely tell them no. Right,
Mike Glenn: right. Yeah, just ha- you know, couple of nights in a hotel- That's right. That's right ... uh, away from ev- everybody else. They're grabbing hands and all that, you know?
That's
Ian Simpkins: it. Well, and that was, that was in, uh, February of 2020. Yeah. So if you're, uh, if you're, if you're playing along at home, a couple of things happened a few weeks after our first visit. Yeah. Yeah. So that then turned into, like, a, a year-long, uh, interview process. We actually parted ways twice, uh, [00:05:00] in sort of what became a, a Zoom dialogue back and forth.
Right. And, um, it's a much longer story, but they- Well, Zoom, Zoom killed a lot of things. You're telling me. Well, and trying to, like, get to know a culture- Yeah, right ... of people and answer theological questions- Mm-hmm ... and trying to discern and... So we had, we had parted ways officially, and then, uh, I, I got a call and said, "Hey, hope this isn't awkward, but, you know, we have two staff members who have been filling pulpit for a while, uh, while still doing their other jobs.
Any chance you could come down and just be a g- a guest preacher- Yeah ... for, for one of these weekends?" And so again, we were in f- full COVID in Chicago. Right, right. Drove down, did a, a, a guest taught, and then I did a, a training with the staff the next day. Mm-hmm. And then we continued on our little family road trip, and when we get back, I, I got a call.
They said, "Hey, uh, we've already put it to a vote and the elders are unanimous and there's a job offer in your inbox. Let us know what you think." Which again, was a shock to me 'cause I didn't know- Right. That's right, yeah ... that that was an audition. I d- I would've preached a better sermon. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: no, good. I, I have one when I [00:06:00] know a pulpit's gonna be- The pressure was off, yeah.
Ian Simpkins: I thought I was just hanging out with friends. No, I had no clue. So that was, that was surprising, and Katie and I again had to really kinda pray and fast and discern.
Mike Glenn: Now, uh, w- we talk a lot about alignment, who the pastor is, the pastor's giftedness, the church's vision- Mm ... and mission, and how all of that has to sync up- Yeah
for, for everything to kinda work. Uh, like Jupiter and Mars lining up and you get this big star. Mm. And when that happens, then, then, then some, some good things can happen in a, in a local church community. So, so talk to me about the time when you said, "Okay, I'm beginning to see this church lines up with who I am."
Mm. Or, "This church lines up with the vision of my own ministry." Yeah. Uh, n- not, not, not so much when you went in with the staff and said- Sure ... "Hey, here, here's how we..." But I'm talking with that, that, that soul moment when you, when you said, "Okay, I'm, I'm, we're syncing here."
Ian Simpkins: Mm. That's a great question. I, [00:07:00] I've never had this thought before this moment.
My, my brother's a chiropractor. Mm-hmm. And so he works on alignment- Right, yeah ... 10 hours a day, and what, what he will tell you is n- no one is, like, just one crack away from perfect alignment. Right. There's all sorts of work outside of the clinic, outside of the office to maintain- Mm-hmm ... like, a body that's in alignment.
That has, that has been my experience in church world. It's not, "Oh, we all went-" That's right ... "to one summit and we all got the key phrase- That's right, yeah ... or the stars aligned." Mm-hmm. It's actually this consist- it's way more of a dance than just, "Oh, we've arrived at alignment." Mm-hmm. Now it's all systems go.
I think, you know, so The Bridge, when, when we started, to their credit, was so ready for change- Mm-hmm ... for new vision. When I got here, they were like, "Change whatever you want. Change the name of the church if you want." And I was like, "I, I don't know where my office is yet. Like, hold on. Let me-
Mike Glenn: Well, and you also-
figure that out" ... had the pressure of following one of the great preachers in- That's right ... in the United States. Absolutely. I mean, Josh- Absolutely. Massive ... Josh is known for, to be a master pulpiteer. Absolutely. And, and I don't say that flippantly.
Ian Simpkins: Absolutely. Uh- And there was a [00:08:00] two-year gap between he and I- Right
which I actually think was really helpful- Right ... because it helped, I think, the church figure out who they wanted to be going forward. Well, I mean, COVID erased
Mike Glenn: everything. Of
Ian Simpkins: course.
Mike Glenn: COVID- Of course ... just erased everything.
Ian Simpkins: Which I will say, you know, we've had some, some great leaders out to, to pour into our staff, like Katie Cole and Brad Lomenick, and they have, independent of each other, said that it takes a new leader about three to five years- Mm-hmm
to really begin to feel like, "Oh, now we're, now we're clicking. Like, now we're..." Which was- Every church- That helped ...
Mike Glenn: has to ordain you.
Ian Simpkins: Yeah, right. That's right.
Mike Glenn: And they, I tell people, "Just 'cause you drove up doesn't mean you're the pastor." That's exactly right. Church- I wish
Ian Simpkins: more young pastors realized that, too
the
Mike Glenn: church has to watch and they withhold judgment until they see you under pressure. Totally.
Ian Simpkins: Well, and honestly-
Mike Glenn: Then they will let you know and- That's right ... and say, "Okay, I'm-
Ian Simpkins: For or against, to be honest That's exactly right And when I started, uh, to their, to the church's credit, I think a lot of people, like, treaded water for two years- Sure
to see who they were gonna hire, gave me a fair [00:09:00] shake, and in all fairness said, "Hey, nothing personal. You're, you're not my cup of tea." That's exactly right To which I will often say, "I c- I get it. I'm not my own cup of tea half the time." That's o- that's okay. I, I get it. That's okay. Which is why, this is sort of a roundabout answer to your question, but I, I spent probably the first six months almost exclusively trying to get coffee and lunches with other local church pastors.
Mm-hmm. It was really important for me to send a message, like, "Hey, we're on the s- on the same team." Mm-hmm. "If you're preaching the gospel, like, we're not competition." Yeah. So that when someone told me, "Hey, no offense, but we want something smaller or a little more of this or a little more of that." Right If someone said, "Hey, we're going over to this church," I could say, "I just had coffee with him last-" I know that man
let me text him right now." I know him. He's a good dude. Y'all are gonna love that church. Good dude. It just diffused- Yeah ... the s- the, the competition, us versus them. I used
Mike Glenn: to tell 'em, I used to tell 'em, "Hey, let me, let me tell you about this other church I think you'll like." Yes. We all work for the same boss.
Ian Simpkins: That's right. 100%. Yes. Which I, I feel like can sometimes fall into the category of cliche- Mm-hmm ... but I think is really important when, when communities and congregants see [00:10:00] pastors, you know, sw- swap pulpits- Right ... and share event leadership- Mm-hmm ... and pray for one another. You know, we'll brag on other churches in our services.
Yeah. Like, man, so-and-so just got a new building or they just- Yeah ... baptized X number of people. That's really important to me. Mm. And so I think that, uh, at the onset was really helpful. But where I, where I really feel like we started to click, the, as, as leadership, particularly with our elders, we had been praying about what, you know, what is, what is sort of the, the unique vision that we believe God has given us.
Right. And maybe three years ago, uh, the Lord began kinda working in my heart with this, this image of the table. Looking at the ministry of Jesus- Mm-hmm ... and how much time he spent at the table with people- That's right. Mm-hmm ... in sort of this digital distracted age, Jesus seems committed to the ministry of presence.
And so I, I, I began sharing this, this idea of, of the table, of everyday disciples with our elders, which of course, the first time I articulated it, they all kinda looked at me and scratched their heads like, "What are you talking about? That's not a, that's not a vision." And then the more that we, like, [00:11:00] prayed and discerned, I saw them go from, like, confused to reluctant to receptive to agreeable to, like, all in.
Mm-hmm. To the point where I'm, you know, I'm getting texts from elders saying like, "Man, I think the l- the table is how the Lord's gonna use me for the next 15 years," so. Exactly right. So our, our vision at The Bridge is- Well, you know, the
Mike Glenn: interesting thing is, uh, a, a friend of mine said that, that of all the things that Jesus could have left us- Hmm
he left us the table.
Ian Simpkins: Yeah, that's right Like a meal. A meal, yeah. When, I mean, hours before his arrest and crucifixion- That's right. That's
Mike Glenn: right ...
Ian Simpkins: he's not performing one more miracle, not giving one more sermon. Well, and,
Mike Glenn: and the hours after
Ian Simpkins: the resurrection- That's right ... the first thing he did was have the meal.
That's exactly right. Uh- You could argue the first command in all of scripture is eat freely, and the last statement in Revelation is drink freely- That's right ... and everything in between is a, is a table. And w- it's been really beautiful to see our church kinda grab hold of that. The, the full vision for us is bringing the gospel to every table, and helping people imagine that's not just a dining room table.
That's a conference table. That's [00:12:00] a chess table. Mm-hmm. That's whatever tables, whatever spaces you occupy. This is Ephesians 4. My work as a pastor is not to do all the work in ministry. That's right. Yeah. It's to equip the saints for the work of ministry. The heresy of the comma.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. Right, exactly.
King James puts the comma in there, and it's not in the Greek.
Ian Simpkins: Exactly right. So, yeah. Exactly right. And it's been cool to see our community real- really latch onto that- Mm-hmm ... and to see themselves as, "Oh, I'm, I'm a sent person- Right ... in the same way that Pastor Ian is- Mm-hmm ... the same way that a missionary is, wherever God has me."
We,
Mike Glenn: we tell people that the first Reformation gave the Bible back to the people.
Ian Simpkins: Mm. The
Mike Glenn: second Reformation that we're in now is giving ministry back to the people. That's
Ian Simpkins: so good. I'm seeing it, 100%. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And, and, you know, the interesting thing is w- uh, in, in my new role since I've stepped down from the senior leadership at, at, at Brentwood, I go to a lot of different churches.
I talk to a lot of different friends, different contexts. Most church members are bored out of their minds. I agree. And I- They do, they do amazing things all week- Mm-hmm ... and we [00:13:00] want them to come sit.
Ian Simpkins: That's right. And I'm saying that I agree with you. Yeah. And I'm saying that as a teacher. I love to, to preach and teach.
I do.
Mike Glenn: Well, I, uh, you know, I, I do, too. But the, the thing is because that's the, the, the way we have defined ministry, we have people showing up on Sunday morning, sitting in the back pew, folding their arm like Russian Olympic judges- Mm ... going, "Do worship." Uh-huh. Yeah. All right, you do worship and- And it better be a song
Ian Simpkins: I like
Mike Glenn: yeah, 9.4- ... 9.3, and we'll judge you whether I got anything out of it. Yeah, right. Rather than- Yeah ... coming to the, to, to, to, to the bridge going, "Ian, let me tell you what I saw God do- Yes ... this past week." That's right. Help me worship. Give me some kinda framework. Give me some kinda something, but I'm gonna bring worship on
Ian Simpkins: my own.
That's exactly right. Yeah, it, we, we talk about Sundays as the push, not the point. Right. And that is, I love the gathered body. Right. I love, Sunday is my favorite day of the week for that reason. However, if [00:14:00] we're saying, man, the culmination of the Christian life of bringing heaven to earth here- Mm-hmm ... and now is what we do 70 minutes on a Sunday, I think that is woefully inadequate of the vision that we're given in- Right
the New Testament of people living sent wherever they live, work, and play. And what's really cool is that it is enlivening people to actually see, like, impact in their neighborhoods. Like, oh- Right ... is this what you've been talking about? Yeah, I'll take more of that, please. Mm-hmm. Like, it, it is, it is not, "Oh, you need to be more like me," or, or particular- you know, grow in a particular skill that l- looks like standing on a stage.
Right. You have unique gifts and abilities and f- and networks. I believe that you're there on purpose for a purpose. Mm-hmm. And so it's not just, "Hey, can you add..." Try and shoehorn mission into an already busy life. It's, it's actually seeing your entire life through a gospel lens. No. How do I live- Right
life missionally? Mm-hmm. And that shift I think has been really, really cool.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. I, I spoke at a church staff the other day, and I looked at them and I said, "Here's my problem, and here's what I think you got wrong." Hmm. Just I said, [00:15:00] "I'm looking at your, your staff titles. Put senior pastor, associate pastor- Sure
pastor to children, pastor to a bunch of stuff." I said, "You need to drop all that. Every one of you is a missionary."
Ian Simpkins: That's right.
Mike Glenn: And this idea that now we are chaplains to the- Hmm To the status quo Yeah, right That's gone Yes And you have to, you have to look at your community the same way that a missionary, if we threw a missionary out of an airplane and said, "Hey, start it."
That's right It's the same kind of thing. That's right And, and, you know, everybody going, "Well, the church in North America..." You know, we've been doing this a couple of thousand years. You're right. You know? Got some history. This, this is not new. We've been doing
Ian Simpkins: this. That's
Mike Glenn: right. We can do this now.
Ian Simpkins: That's right.
What excites you? Oh, man, everything we just talked about. Hon- honestly- Mm-hmm ... I'm thinking of a conversation I had with a lady. We had first started talking about the table and what, what that actually means, and she works graveyard shift at a gas station. Mm-hmm. And she came up to me on a Sunday with, with tears in her eyes talking about how she'd shared Jesus with a, a young man at 2:00 in the [00:16:00] morning- Yeah, yeah.
Yeah ... and led him to the Lord, and how he's being baptized two weeks from now. Right And she just kept saying, "Is that my table? Is that what you've been saying?" Oh, man.
Mike Glenn: I'm like, "That
Ian Simpkins: you got." Yeah. I didn't picture a gas station counter- Yeah ... when I first started teaching about it. So, like, people, I, I... As much as I love preaching, I really do enjoy the craft.
I love the study. I love- Mm-hmm ... I love honing that skill. It, it doesn't hold a candle to watching real-time transformation- No ... in real people. No And to see them carry it out.
Mike Glenn: What I used to tell the church is, "I'm looking for the day when I walk out here and you come up and say, 'Listen, I, I know it's time to preach, but can I tell the church what I...'"
And there are so many of you with so many stories- Mm-hmm ... that I don't get to preach. Yes. That's what I'm looking forward to. Yes. Never happened, but I... No kidding. But that's, that's what I'm looking forward to. Well, I remember even- So- ...
Ian Simpkins: in, in COVID, people would make comments like, uh, "Oh, I bet you really miss the stage.
Do you miss the stage?" And I thought about that and I said, "I, I do." Mm-hmm. I don't wanna pretend that I don't, but I actually miss the lobby a lot more.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Ian Simpkins: The l- the lobby where you're, you are hearing the [00:17:00] stories of transformation, not just in the macro- Right ... but in the micro and, and hearing about real lived experiences.
This is why- Right ... I think it's dangerous when particularly young leaders get into ministry simply to build a platform or to build an online. Right, right. I'm like, there are other ways to do that. If that's what you wanna do, go for it. Yeah, that's fine. But that's- The church is rooted in a locale- Mm-hmm
like an actual gathered people, an ecclesia, and I think the more that you distance yourself from those actual stories- Mm-hmm ... and that's, uh, that includes struggle, you know? Listen- I, I think it needs to be both/and ...
Mike Glenn: uh, yeah, but here, here's what bothers me. There seems to be this, this, a cottage industry of, of, of slamming the Church.
Hmm. Of this church, and listen, when you open the door and don't charge admission, this is what happens. Yeah, right. You know, if you wanna raise the entrance fee, then you'd have a different kind of deal. Sure, sure. But I, you know, I, I have, I have a lot of, of good friends who are brothers- Mm-hmm That I'd take a bullet for Yeah And they would take...
And I know that Mm And they've been there for me, and I love these guys to death. As much as [00:18:00] I love those guys, there's not one of them I can say, "Your wife's ugly." Hmm. Sure. That would, that would be a, a relationship killer. Yes. Okay? And rightfully so. There are lines you don't... But we tell that to Jesus all the time.
Wow. That's convicting. You know, love you,
Ian Simpkins: Jesus, but, but this bride you have is ugly. Yeah, that's right. That's right. What I wonder, too, and that is such a tightrope- Yeah ... because I feel like sometimes the error on the other side is that you can never critique- Oh, no ... never criticize- No, yeah ... that any- No, no
any brokenness or abuse or scandal- No, no, you- We sweep under the rug- No, no ... and say, "Hey, it's the bride of Christ." You know, it is- We're, we're,
Mike Glenn: we're not talking about- That's right ... the defending criminal behavior- Right ... or anything like that. But we are, we're talking about a commitment to, to, to the best life of the church.
Hmm. And then we
Ian Simpkins: make it- I think commitment is the key word. Yeah. I, I really do think, I think Francis Schaeffer said that Christian community is the final apologetic. Yeah. And I think that's a really compelling idea, that when you look at 12 people gathered in a [00:19:00] living room- Mm-hmm ... breaking bread and studying scripture, on the outside, you go, "What do these 12 people have in common?"
Right. They could not be more different politically, socioeconomically. Why in the world would they commit to gathering every Thursday night other than something profound spiritually- Yeah ... is happening in their midst? We have, uh- And I think
Mike Glenn: that's interesting ... I'm in a Bible study. Long story about how I got into this Bible study.
Uh, I'm at lunch with a young friend of mine. He's an entrepreneur and all that. Mm. So we're doing this big small group push, and- Yeah ... I said, "What group you in?" He said, "I'm not in a group, hate groups, I'm never gonna be in a group." I said, "Well, I hate groups, too. I, I, I would rather study scripture by myself."
Mm. "And I would just, I like the solitude." And, uh, and I said, "I tell you what, call your friends, I'll do the group." Hmm. He said, "Why would you do the group?" I said, "I wa- I gotta be in a group, and if I don't get in a group, they gonna put me in a group of people I don't like." Yeah, sure. Always happens. I know. No, I don't want that.
So, but he says, "Okay." And, and normally, you know, [00:20:00] I, I'll get, I'll get the group up and running six months to a year, and then- Sure ... I'll transfer the leadership- Mm ... and I do something else. This is five years. No kidding. Five, five years. You're stuck with them now. Yeah, yeah. And now we have crossed a couple of lines- Hmm
uh, in our relationship with each other- Yes ... that I, uh, that I told the, the guy that pulled the group together, I said, "This group will never break up now." Hmm. That, that, this group will stay together in some form or fashion- That's beautiful ... fr- from now on because of what's happened. Yes. And, and, and now we have, um, a, a couple of African Americans are in this group.
Hmm. And, and the, the discussion that happened around the Charlie Kirk incident- Hmm ... from their perspective and from- Some young conservatives Sure And that, but the trust of that conversation That's right. That's right You know, nobody was defensive. Mm Nobody was offensive. Nobody. [00:21:00] And it was, "I didn't know that.
Explain that to me." Wow. "Well, here's what..." "Ah, ah." And then, and then this morning, a couple of them were talking about they had gone back into their offices- Mm ... and with, uh, other African-Americans that they work with- Mm ... had had the opportunity to have this conversation, and they said, "We were ready for that conversation because of the conversation we had had here."
Yes, yes. Because it was like having an older brother teach you something- That's right ... rather than, than, than being confronted- That's beautiful ... uh, yeah, with that. It, uh, yeah, it's... And, you know, the thing is, you know, it's, it's, it's scriptural. It's in, this is the way life happens. Mm. It's in, it's in this give and take of togetherness.
Yeah. It's around a table. That's right. It's, uh, b- b- being all focused on Christ through our different experiences, and then, then it works. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. It, it, it worked. What a novel idea. [00:22:00] And you walk out going, "That's amazing. That's ama- You know, I just, I just never, I just... You know, it's, it, it works.
Ian Simpkins: Who knew? Who knew? What a novel idea. Who knew? I do think that is, uh, I... Stories like that give me goosebumps because it's- Ah ... that can't, you can't replicate that- Mm-mm ... in an online debate in the comment section- Mm ... where people are just making a series of declarations back and forth- No ... and calling it conversation.
Mm. It's not. I'm not anti-social media. I'm not anti-technology. I just think there's no replication, and I think we're gonna see this more in the next five years with the ri- the rise of AI. Mm-hmm. More and more people are gonna crave, the only thing I can tell is real is- That's right ... you sitting right here.
Because you can't trust it. Can't trust anything else, and that's only gonna be exacerbated. Mm-hmm. And so what you're modeling with your group is, hey, we We may disagree politically, socially, even at times- Yeah ... theologically, but man, I care about you- That's right ... and your welfare, and th- we've now spent enough time- Yeah
that your equity and my equity is connected. Well, I'm
Mike Glenn: a... Well, you're an older brother, I'm an older brother. Yeah. The, the unwritten rule of older brothers is I can beat [00:23:00] my little brothers and sisters. You can't. Absolutely not. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Now, I don't care what he did. Yep. Right. He probably deserves a beating.
That's right. And if,
Ian Simpkins: and if he does, I'll give it to him. Sure. That's right. See, all my siblings got bigger than me pretty quick- Yeah, so ... so that was a short, that was a short-lived window for me. Short window, right? Yeah, very short. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. So you know, what we say to the world is, "Hey, I, you know, I understand."
Ian Simpkins: Mm. But you're not gonna pick on
Mike Glenn: my
Ian Simpkins: little brother. I do think that's really, I think it was Eugene Peterson who said something like there, "I am not myself, by myself." Mm-hmm. There is no maturity in the Christian faith- That's right, right ... apart from the, the other, you know? Mm-hmm. When, when CS Lewis writes, uh, he wrote a, a brilliant book on friendship called The Four Loves.
Right. And he tells a story about, uh, you know, his group, the Inklings, with him and Charles Williams and, and Tolkien. Mm-hmm. And he mentions how when Charles, uh, died, that he thought that he would get more of his friend Tolkien- Mm-hmm ... because now he, now it's just the two of them. That's right. And he found, he's like, "Well, I actually got less of him," because there was a side of him- Right, that w- only responded-
that only came alive around [00:24:00] Charles ... at, at this, yeah. Like, w- the kind of joke that he would make- Mm-hmm ... or the, the comments he would make. And I think that is such a beautiful picture of- Right ... of Christian community, that there's a part of you that is, like, unlocked when you choose to be vulnerable, when you, we just talked about this last week, when you actually confess something.
When it is safe. Yeah, when it's safe, exactly. When it's safe. Exactly right. Everyone's longing for that.
Mike Glenn: Well, and everybody, everybody knows what a loser you are. Hmm. Every- So- Right. All the skeletons, it's all- So all the, all the things ... just drag 'em out. So, so you know, uh, you know, somebody'll walk in and go, "Oh, so and so, he's," He say, "Well, well, we know that.
You didn't call the meeting just for that, did you?" Yeah,
Ian Simpkins: right.
Mike Glenn: It's a gift, though. Tell me something
Ian Simpkins: we don't know about you. It's a
Mike Glenn: gift.
Ian Simpkins: I, I, I can think of numerous times where somebody has shared something with me, and you can tell that they're, like, bracing for condemnation- Yeah ... or shame. Yeah. And to be met with grace- Yeah
and mercy, and sometimes a tough word, sometimes accountability. Mm-hmm. But there's just nothing like it. When you're bracing [00:25:00] for worst case scenario, and it's like- Right ... "Oh, man, we've all, we all fall short. Uh, we're actually gonna walk with you toward the end." But that only
Mike Glenn: comes in the context of a trusted relationship.
That's right. That's right. Yeah. I'm gonna lay, I'm gon- I'm gonna bring out something that's causing me great pain. Hmm. I'm taking the risk of you judging me on it. That's right. But I'm, and, but because of the safety of the relationship, I'm at least- I'm gonna leave you with this. Totally So, yeah. This is why,
Ian Simpkins: honestly, this is a bit of a hobby horse for me.
This is why I'm so... Like, the Bible doesn't hide the stories of grief- No ... and sorrow and pain. And if the Bible doesn't hide those stories- And, and failure Exactly right And, and failure. Yeah So if the Bible doesn't hide those stories, maybe we don't have to either. Mm-hmm. And yet, I, I think you're spot on.
It often takes one person to go first. Right. The going first is ob- objectively terrifying. Right. But it actually unlocks the door for everyone else's vulnerability.
Mike Glenn: Well, ev- everybody says, "Well, Mike, you're wise," you know, they say... I said, "You know what? Yeah, wisdom means I screwed up before you did." Yeah.
That's, [00:26:00] that's, that's all wisdom is. That's a good definition.
Ian Simpkins: No
Mike Glenn: one's called
Ian Simpkins: me wise yet- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... but I have a lot of screw-ups in my bag. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: you gotta get a little more gray hair. Then you can get away with that crap, so yeah. Love it. Just mean, yeah. Yeah, I made that mistake. Yeah, for sure.
And here's the scar. For sure. I, I don't advise you do that. That's right. That's right. What keeps you up at night?
Ian Simpkins: Oh, man. There's a lot that keeps me up at night. You know, I got, I got three young boys. Mm-hmm. So I think a lot about them, you know, seven, six, and three. I think a lot about... You know, I'll, I'll tell our staff a lot, um, "Hey, if you're winning here, but you're losing at home, you're losing."
Mm-hmm. Like, that, that notion of I have a lot of, uh, um, innate kinda workaholism in me. That's just sorta- Mm-hmm ... my gear, uh, productivity, achievement, often at the detriment of more important things. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm very, very grateful to have a wife that kinda helps, you know, keep those things in check.
I, I s- actually said this to our church a few weeks ago. It's funny that you phrase it that way. One of the things that keeps me awake at night as a pastor [00:27:00] is that so many of us are not living nearly as free as we actually are. Like, people that I believe have, have prayed a prayer and, and m- and genuinely surrendered to Jesus- Right
and still living in bondage. Bondage. And I think that is honestly, as a pastor, one of the things that grieves me the most. Mm-hmm. It's like, man, you think like checking a box on a Sunday- Yeah ... is all there is to this- Yeah ... and you're still living with this old script, this old narrative, these old hangups and habits.
And, and that stuff keeps me up at night. It really does.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. My, my story is, uh, uh, uh, along those lines was- Mm ... s- several years ago, uh, I, the Lord invited me to a deeper prayer life. Mm. Pure invitation, no gi- just, "I want you to come deeper." And I said no. No. N- and here's why. I've made a million promises to you.
I have kept none of them. Mm. It's embarrassing to me. It's gotta be embarrassing to you. Mm. So let's just cut to the chase and say I'm doing about as well as Mike's gonna do. You know? And, a- you know, I wanna do more and all that, so- [00:28:00] Honestly, there was this kind of discussion that went on in my prayer time.
Finally, I decided, I, I, I got the invitation, do it for 30 days. Hmm. So do it for one month. You're like, "I can handle that." Okay. I, I can stay on my head- Yeah, yeah ... for 30 days. Okay. I can do that. So for 20-something years now - Hmm ... I've been making a 30-day commitment - Let's go. That's so good ... to, to a deeper prayer life That's so good.
So at the end of next week, so October 1, I'll re-up. I love that. I'm firmly committed to October 31. You said how, and how long has it been? 27 years.
Ian Simpkins: No kidding. See, I
Mike Glenn: can't do forever. I can't do forev- I don't think most people can, to be honest ... I can do 30 days. I know. Now, here's the thing that happened out of that.
Hmm. My marriage- Explain ... and I tell, I tell husbands, until you sit with the Lord who created her- Yeah ... you don't know her. That's a good word. He will tell you things about her. Yes. I promise you He will. Yes. That only the one who [00:29:00] makes her knows. Mm-hmm. Okay? Now, I tell people if you had asked me, I would have told you I have a 10.
My marriage is a 10. Hmm. I had no idea God had more numbers. Wow. Okay? I was going, "I've got a 10," and Jesus was feeling sorry for me. Like, that's it? I got a 10. You have to go, "I, I got a 38 over here." Wow. "And if I give you 112, it's gonna blow your mind." That's right. That's right. "But you're not, you're not living-" Yes
in the fullness, uh, of what I'm inviting you to do." That's right. The f- Yeah ... the fullness. The fullness. Yes. Abundant. Yeah,
Ian Simpkins: yeah. More, more than you could ask or imagine. Yeah. That is the- Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... and I think a lot of, of the John 15 abiding in the vine. Mm-hmm. How does a, how does a branch grow great grapes?
Yeah. By, like, trying really hard? Or by abiding in the vine? Yeah, and just- And that's the, and that's the kicker ... and just getting basic kicker. I, I meet people all the time like, "Oh, I want a deeper prayer life," or, "I want, uh, more humility," or, "I want more..." I'm like, "The, the aim is intimacy with Jesus." That's right.
The [00:30:00] byproduct- Right ... of which is- Right ... intimacy, humility- That's right ... fruit of the spirit stuff. But when we aim at the thing and miss Jesus, I think we miss the whole thing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To your point, man, I, I, my commitment to abide in the vine actually had implications in my marriage- Exactly right ... and with my kids and at my job- Mm-hmm
and in my neighborhood. It changes how I, I see resources and recreation. It, it's- Yeah ... it's all encom- that's what the abundant life is about, and I feel like a lot of people, a lot of us have settled for... Yeah. I ne- I think of, uh, um, oh, what was the movie, Spinal Tap? Yeah. All, all the knobs go to 11 in the kingdom.
And we're, like, settling for, like, eh- Yeah, yeah ... six or seven. It's like- Yeah, no, no ... yeah, I guess that's loud enough. Yeah. Like, oh, man. Turn it up to 11. The abundant li- That's it. Turn it up to 11. Let's go.
Mike Glenn: So what do you want to see at, uh, at The Bridge next two to three
Ian Simpkins: years? Oh, great question. Honestly, it is, it is pretty- Pretty back to the basics.
I'll, I just wanna see a community of people who see themselves as everyday missionaries, equipped and sent wherever they live, w- and play You know,
Mike Glenn: that we're finding that and, and- Really? ... the [00:31:00] walking around that, that I get to do now.
Ian Simpkins: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, we're finding out that it is the simpler- Hmm. Okay. Simple doesn't mean easy.
That's right. Simple means without complication. Hmm. That churches are going to more, a more simple... We do these two or three things- Yep ... and the rest you do. That's right. You work out. If that's important to you, you work it out. That's right. Uh, but, but it, it's not up to the church to have a youth basketball league.
Yeah, right. Right. Okay? If that's, if that's something that you feel passionate about, that you think will then, then go for it, but we're not gonna give church resources, church time to, to, to that. We're not gonna stand up on Sunday morning- That's right ... and announce a youth basketball league. That's right.
And, and, but what happens is all of these things when your laity- Hmm ... uh, are free to, uh, to seek the uniqueness- Hmm ... to which Jesus has called them. [00:32:00] Yeah. Then the church explodes. That's exactly right. And, and you end up with, you know, we have this triangle that we're always talking about. It's, it's worship, everything we do is in response to Jesus' encounter with us.
Hmm. You know, everybody says, "Well, I found Jesus." No, you didn't. Yeah. Jesus wasn't lost. You know? All right, that drives you to discipleship. I've gotta know more about this God I've encountered. Hmm. Uh, if you, but, but if that's all you have, then you have legalism. Yeah, that's right. Okay? Uh, w- worship, discipleship then drives you to mission- Hmm
because God is always looking for that one- Yes ... leaving the 99. Yes. And, and if you wanna be close to Jesus, then that means you're gonna leave the 99 too and go find the one that he has. That's exactly right. So there's mission, which drives you back to worship, 'cause I've seen God do things, which drives you back to discipleship- Yes
'cause I've gotta know more if I'm gonna do more. Yes. So that worship, discipleship, mission triangle is constantly reinforcing, uh, [00:33:00] itself. And- This is like we shared notes. Yeah. Well, and it- That's exactly how we organize ... and that is, well, and it, it is that- Simple. Yeah, right. Okay. Which means you, you're not called to be at church...
You know, several years ago at, at Brentwood Baptist Church, we did a, a survey, an analysis. Mm-hmm. And we found out we were the most hostile group to families- No kidding ... in church, in, in, in the community. No kidding. Well, we wanted mom and dad up here on Sunday night. Mm-hmm. We wanted kids up here on Monday night.
We wanted children up here on Wednesday night. Wow. And the whole time I'm at the pulpit going, "Parents, you are the disciples of your children." Mm-hmm. And they're going, "When?" Mm-hmm. The only time we're with our kids is when we're in a car coming to church. Wow.
Ian Simpkins: Good for you to even, like, receive that data, though.
So, so- Right? ... yeah, it was embarrassing as all... I,
Mike Glenn: I've had a
Ian Simpkins: few of those, yeah. So. They tell you exactly what
Mike Glenn: you're doing. So we, we kinda slid it over to the side and changed everything. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and, and quit. You know, if, if that's important to [00:34:00] you- Wow ... then there are ways to make that happen, but we're not gonna be requiring it of anybody.
No kidding.
Ian Simpkins: Good for you. So, so anyway. We, it's very interesting that you use that language too, because we, so our mission at The Bridge is to be with Jesus and become like him for the sake of the world. Mm-hmm. And so the categories that we use are presence, formation, and mission. Right. And obviously everyone's gonna have a bent.
You have people that are more- Right ... kinda missionly minded- Right ... and other people that are more presence minded, but we, I'll bring it back to Matthew 4 when Jesus simply says, "Follow me," which is the presence piece. Mm-hmm. "Come, come be with me and I will make you," so there's a, there's a formation piece.
Mm-hmm. "I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna chisel some stuff away that doesn't belong, fishers of men. You're gonna be, as the Father has sent me, I'm sending you." And so we're always trying to, ours is more of a Venn diagram. How are we keeping in tension- That's right ... presence, formation, and mission? There'll be seasons where one is maybe heavier than the other- Right
but we're always trying to keep that in tension. If we're all presence and formation, but we lose mission, we're just gonna become- Right ... a holy huddle. Mm-hmm. But if we're all mission, but we don't know how to abide in the vine- [00:35:00] Right ... that's a recipe for burnout.
Mike Glenn: Well, well, burnout and, and the, and the worst case of the social gospel.
Ian Simpkins: That's right But you keep them all in, in tandem- Yeah ... in tension. Mm-hmm. And I think that is, uh, what is so compelling to me in this season is because a lot of times when we talk about mission, people will say, "I, I think I n- I need to mature a little more first before- Mm-hmm ... I live on mission." And I'll say, "What if I told you that one of the main vehicles by which God grows us- Is mission
is obedience, is mission, is actually just living it out?" You don't
Mike Glenn: know how to change a tire until you change a tire. That's it. There, there are some things you learn only in obedience.
Ian Simpkins: Which is terrifying. It, it is. It is. Uh, first time I changed a tire was legitimately frightening. Yeah. But I had a, I had a father that was there- Yeah
that was apprenticing me- Mm-hmm ... that was showing me the way. That's, that's why I think the, the shared ministry of the body is so important, is because you have people who are like, "Hey, young buck, I've been doing this a couple decades." Yeah, that's right. "Let me, let, come with me." That's right. "Join, join me in living on mission- Mm-hmm
so I can [00:36:00] show you a bit of how it's actually done." Mm-hmm. Is like such an invitation. And how important that
Mike Glenn: is for, for, uh, for mature men- Yes ... to circle back- Yes ... and find those young men. For mature women- 100% ... to circle back. Uh, and, uh, even for 12th graders, high schoolers, to circle back and get the middle school- Yeah, absolutely
and, uh, and, and, and that ministry.
Ian Simpkins: Yes.
Mike Glenn: One of the great things about being in Middle Tennessee, uh, is there are a lot of great churches. Mm. The Bridge in, uh, Spring Hill is one of them. This is Ian Simpkins. He is the pastor of The Bridge, and if you're in that neck of the woods looking for a church home, Ian and The Bridge would be worth a visit.
I'm Mike Glenn. This is the podcast for the Engage Church Network. Thanks for being with us.
Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If [00:37:00] today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
