Chris O'Rear on Why Pastors Need Friends
This Week Mike Glenn sits down with licensed pastoral therapist Chris O’Rear to talk about a topic most leaders don’t realise they’re starving for: therapeutic friendship. The kind of soul-level relationship that brings healing, grounding, and real connection in a world marked by isolation.
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Mike Glenn: I tell people, you know, if you're gonna be in a Bible study, you gotta have the brother in there next to you going, "Oh, yeah, that does apply to you. Don't you remember last Thursday?" Right. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Uh, you have written this really nice book, Therapeutic Friendship. Correct. Uh, which which ... All right, the title caught me off guard because when you think of friendship, I don't think of, of a healing ministry. Thera- therapeutic is about- Right ... repairing or surgery or- Right ... or something, you know? Right. I'm going to therapy- [00:01:00]
Chris O'Rear: Yeah
Mike Glenn: uh, for, you know, a messed up back or a messed up shoulder or something like that. Uh, but you were really intentional about putting that healing aspect of, of friendship. This is more than connecting and having a good time. This is, this is a soul-level kind of, of connection. Right. Right.
Chris O'Rear: Yeah. And you probably would not have this kind of relationship with every single person in your life.
No. Um, but we need one or two people- Mm-hmm ... in our life who are not our significant others, who know us-
Mike Glenn: No. That's right. That's, that's a- Who know us ... that's a burden to put on, on a spouse.
Chris O'Rear: Yeah. Yeah. We can't expect our spouses to know, uh, to be our sole outlet for emotional, social, mental health. Mm-hmm. So, to have friends.
Um, this grew out of my own experience of having a couple of friendships that were relatively significant for [00:02:00] me, life-changing in some ways. And so I thought a good friend can be a very powerful thing, and a lot of times when people are in a crisis or when they're hurting, they don't, they don't necessarily need a therapist like me.
Right. They need somebody who they can talk to, who can help them get their feet back under them and get back on- with life. Mm-hmm. Um, the
Mike Glenn: title of the book- And, and what I, what I tell people is you just need somebody to make sure you don't fall off the edge. Yeah.
Chris O'Rear: Yeah, right.
Mike Glenn: You know, I just need to walk on the outside, let you feel what you need to feel and do, just so you don't fall off the edge there.
Chris O'Rear: Well, a lot of times when people are kind of in a crisis or overwhelmed, they have some system. Whether it's completely healthy or not- Right. ... they have a system that sustains them, and all of a sudden their circumstances, something happens and their system's overwhelmed.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Chris O'Rear: So they just need somebody who they can talk to, who can support them appropriately until they can get their feet back under them and reestablish- Mm-hmm
that system that they have. But for other people, that knocks them completely off balance, and th- [00:03:00] there is no grounding to get back to. Right. And I think that's w- when a professional can be helpful. Okay.
Mike Glenn: Why did you put those two words together? Therapeutic and friendship? Therapeutic and friendship.
Chris O'Rear: There's actually a, a double play in the words, because as I point out, um, well, I open the book by saying the, you know, the old hymn Is What a Friend We Have in Jesus. Mm-hmm. But I think a lot of times it's, we experience Jesus through- meaningful relationships. Mm-hmm. So it's what a Jesus we have in friends that I think can be true.
Um, and therapy, as I make clear, a, a formal therapy relationship is not a friendship. Uh, but it can feel very friendly and relational. Mm-hmm. Um, and there's a lot of things as a therapist that I know about establishing a relationship with someone and being present with someone that I thought everybody in the real world, you know, should know about this.
Right, right. And so I think there's a way in which we [00:04:00] can have relationships that are healing for us. We can have relationships that provide meaning, that keep us grounded. And so that's, that's part of where that came from, is that, uh, it's not necessarily trying to establish some kind of special relationship with people that's therapeutic and other people it's not.
Right. It's about having relationships that just truly feed our soul, and I think that's healing. So what kind, what would describe a therapeutic friendship? I think it's someone that you can be, uh, completely open with, vulnerable with, um, someone that you share at a feelings level. Uh, so you know, when I talk about therapy, and I have people sit in my office, in the therapy office, and we're establishing that first session and- Mm-hmm
establishing a relationship. And, and, and I will say, "So in therapy, your job is to show up, be as honest as you can be, and talk about things that matter." [00:05:00] Mm-hmm. And that can be a variety of things. Right. And my job is to listen for where I see that person in whatever they're sharing. Mm-hmm. So to kind of find the thread that runs through everything.
And in a good relationship, I think you have to make time to be present. So you show up- Mm-hmm ... and then be honest. 'Cause I think one of the reasons why people are so lonely is because they've got up this protection- Right ... this social protection that nobody sees behind. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And
Chris O'Rear: so- And, and it does-
people don't really know them ... it does protect you. It does protect you. You know? It, nobody hurts you, but nobody gets to you. Right.
Mike Glenn: You know?
Chris O'Rear: But then we wonder why we're, we're lonely. Right. Um, I, years ago I saw, uh, a man in my office, very successful. Um, and he was extraordinarily lonely. And so I asked him one day- Mm-hmm
I said, "Who in your life really knows you?" And he said, "There's no one in my life that I [00:06:00] don't have to be something for." Right. Like, for, for everyone in his life, he fulfilled a role. Right. But there was no one who sat down and said, "So how do you feel about that?" Right. And, like, when you get to the questions of, how does it feel to do that?
And what's it like for you? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and you don't have to have someone who says, "Well, here's what you need to do." You just need somebody who will listen and say, "So when this happens, you feel this way." Right. And you go, "
Mike Glenn: Yes." Yeah. I have, uh, what, what, what I tell people, if you don't have somebody in your life who will laugh at your stuff- You know, and I t- I tell people, you know, if you're gonna be in a Bible study, you gotta have the brother in there next to you going, "Oh, yeah, that does apply to you.
Don't you remember last Thursday?" Right. Right. Yeah. You do that. Somebody who knows all that- Yeah ... but loves you anyway. Yeah. And then somebody who can, who knows you well enough, uh, uh, [00:07:00] accountability has such a bad word, uh, because it's u- usually somebody yelling at you, that kind of stuff. The folks- Well, that's the way people think about it
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the folks who have, who have done their bi- to, have he- held me, uh, to account best are those people who say, "That's not you." Mm. "This is who we know you are." Yeah. "And that behavior doesn't match who we know you are."
Chris O'Rear: I think about spaces where we can be authentically ourselves- Mm-hmm
which is perhaps to say, I struggle with this or that, or to have someone that we can talk to about whatever. Um, but I think, I had one of my important relationships was a relationship that I had when I was doing some pretty serious therapy for myself. Mm-hmm. And I was learning things about myself and about my own fears and ways that I had not been open and honest.
And so here I had this friend, and we would go to lunch. Uh, we [00:08:00] only went about once a month, we would go to lunch, but we would talk about things that matter. Mm-hmm. And there'd be times when he would not respond, or he would be silent for a minute, and I could feel my anxiety rise up, like, "What's he thinking?
Is he worried?" Right. Like, "Is he, is he judging me or... " But I would just say that. I said, "You know, y- you're being quiet, and it makes me worry that you are thinking bad thoughts about me." And of course that's all in my head. That's right. But it's very helpful for him to say, "No, what I was thinking was I appreciate you sharing that with me."
Yeah. And I was like, "Oh." And so he let, like I could work out my stuff, and over time I became, you know, less worried about some of those things. Right. And, but I could say to him- Mm-hmm ... "I feel this." Whereas in another s- in another conversation with someone else- Mm-hmm ... I might not be in a social situation where I say, "I wonder what that person was thinking of me."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You know? The, the, uh, the power to name- Yeah ... uh, that was given to Adam. Oh, [00:09:00] yeah. And the power of the dark, o- of, uh, of the darkness is that it refuses to be named. Yes. And when you're in a friendship where you can name- This is what I'm afraid of, or this is what I'm worried about Yeah ... it, uh, it releases us.
So, so I get up in the morning and I write down, "Today I'm gonna be a better friend."
Chris O'Rear: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: How do I do that? I,
Chris O'Rear: oh, I think it involves some people, and finding people that you can be open and honest with.
Mike Glenn: Okay. And- All right, okay. Let's, let's stop right there. Okay Because the Sunday school part of me says, "I'm gonna be everybody's friend, and I'm gonna love everybody."
You're gonna be friendly and loving to everyone. Gonna be friendly and loving- Yeah ... but not necessarily- Right ... a friend, and, and certainly not a therapeutic friend. Yeah. That's, uh- So I
Chris O'Rear: found some research when I was, uh, preparing to write the book about, [00:10:00] like, deepening connection with people- Right ... that we have people that are more like our acquaintances.
Right. They're people that we share space with because our kids go to the same school- Mm-hmm ... or we go to church together. And we might get along. We might go to a sporting event. We might hang out at a, a parent party or whatever. Mm-hmm. And they're, like, those are great. The, I'm not against those. Those serve a purpose.
Mm-hmm. But in, as you begin to, like, "I really like that person. I wonder if we could spend more time together," you invite them into your home for dinner. Well, that's letting them see another- Right ... piece of your life. That's inviting them into a different space. You might ask them out, like, "Hey, could we get lunch, or could we go to coffee or..."
And this is, I refer to this, it feels a lot like dating. I personally did not do a date, lot of dating in my life, but- ... but this, but I go out to lunch with someone, and I'll like, "I really like him. I wonder, like, if we could have a good relationship." Right. And I'll go to coffee, and I'll share something about my life, and then that gives them permission to [00:11:00] share something about their life.
And I'll go, "Oh my gosh- Right ... this feels so
Mike Glenn: good." But yeah. But the flip side of that is- Yeah ... and, uh, and, and, and this is for a lot of our pa- You know, one, uh, you're not going to be friends at this level that we're talking about with everybody. No. And, and that's okay. No, for sure. And, and, and not only is it okay, in some ways it is better.
Well, I think pastors
Chris O'Rear: in churches are encouraged not to have this level of connection- Right ... with people who are in their congregation- Mm-hmm ... as a general rule. Right. And so having peers or- Right ... others outside of your immediate circle, but- But if
Mike Glenn: I'm gonna find this friend- Yeah ... I have to be intentional- Yeah
about looking for them. Looking for them, creating space. And then creating opportunities- Yeah ... for that friendship to develop.
Chris O'Rear: Yeah. So in that, [00:12:00] I might be, I might- open myself up, and the other person feels then permission that they can share something about themself, and that- Yeah ... feels really good. And then I leave that encounter and I think, "That was really good."
Right. I wonder if they felt the same way. Okay. And then, you know, I'll get an email that says, "Hey, I really enjoyed lunch today. Maybe we can do this again sometime." And I'm like, "Yes." Yeah . "We get a second date," you know it's like- But- But there's times when I have those conversations and the person does not respond well, or they say something that is actually, like, hurtful.
Yeah. I'll risk sharing something, and their response makes me cringe a little. Right. I'm like, I, yeah, that's not gonna be a person that I wanna o- it doesn't mean that I can't be friends with them. It doesn't mean that we don't have a relationship. It just means that's not gonna be the person- It's not gonna be the-
that I wanna open
Mike Glenn: up to. And
Chris O'Rear: that's
Mike Glenn: okay. Yes, it is. And that's okay, and we should be, uh, grateful and g- and gosh, so many of our pastors, uh, me included, are, are people pleasers. Yeah, right. [00:13:00] Right. So when we get an email that is not affirming or not- Oh, right ... then it's just- Right ... it tanks us. It's okay It is.
You know? One- There's a reason Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors- ... of ice cream.
Chris O'Rear: Well, I think that's one of the roles that a good friend can, can carry. I r- I think about this in terms of mirrors. I'm not the first person to use this analogy, but, um, there are certain people in our lives that when they respond to us about things or when they bring things to us, they say, "You're this.
You're that. You look like this." Mm-hmm. And they're showing you an image of yourself- Right ... and you're looking at it going, "Do, do I- Yeah ... do I look like that?" That's it . "Is that me?" And so there's part of me that's like, "That, I don't wanna be that person." I need somebody I can go to- Yeah ... like the friend you talked about earlier.
Right. And you say, "This person says I look like this." And they'll go, "Well, you know, you can kinda do this, but that is definitely not you." Right. "You look more like this." Yeah. Yeah. I like, "Okay, that's a reflection I can trust 'cause- Right ... it's gonna [00:14:00] show me I'm not perfect," but they're also gonna say, "That's a distortion."
That's not accurate. "That's a fun house... Yeah. That's a fun house mirror version- Right ... of you." Yeah. And so it's nice to have a friend that you c- can
Mike Glenn: keep you grounded in that way. The Bible says if you gonna, if you're gonna have friends, you gotta be, you gotta show yourself a friend. Hmm. Okay. How, how, um, how do I best show myself a friend?
That's an, I mean, that's, feels like a really big question.
Chris O'Rear: Um,
Mike Glenn: I think it's about- Well, this is a serious
Chris O'Rear: podcast here, Chris. I gotcha. We can I think it's about how we show up. Uh-huh. Um, I think too often we mistake being the same for being close, so especially- Ah ... in our world today, we have ourselves divided into us and them.
Yes. And we think if we're with the people that are like us- Right ... then we're close. Yeah. Some of my best friendships have been with people that I did not necessarily see eye to eye [00:15:00] with. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. But when we got- My best friend, there's no reason my best friend and I should be best friends. Right. You know, we got nothing in common.
Chris O'Rear: Uh-huh.
Mike Glenn: Except how you are with each other, right? He didn't, he didn't graduate college. He was, when I first started hanging around with him, he was a, a huge NASCAR fan and, uh, rode a Harley, all these things that I don't, I don't do at all. Yeah. And, and that kind of stuff, but don't have a better friend in the world.
Yeah,
Chris O'Rear: because it's about how you are with each other. Yeah. And when you talk about things that are bigger than that- Right Um, I love, I love to tell the story of my friend, um, Kyle. Um, I call him by name in book with his permission, uh, Kyle Cantrell. He was the manager of WSM Radio and he worked at Sirius XM for a while, and he and I went to church together.
And I always thought it was interesting that we sat on opposite rooms of the Sunday school class that we were in, because that seemed appropriate. You know? [00:16:00] And, uh, we were both invited to teach a Sunday school class together. Uh, and he said to me, "Well, if we're gonna teach this class, we should get together sometime."
And I'm like, "Yes, we should." And so- We probably not, but we should Right. But we did. We, we, uh, we went to lunch, but I went out and I met him at the radio station, and he's showing me around the radio station and he starts saying, "You know, a lot of people think that radio is just entertainment and fluff."
Mm-hmm. But he said, "I really think that people form a relationship with the voice that they hear on the radio, and when they hear bad news, they wanna hear it from a voice they trust." Sure. "The music that we play- Yeah ... helps people express emotions that they don't have the words for, or it gives them a soundtrack to the- Yeah
moments of their life." Mm. And I thought, "Holy crap, he's got this whole theology- ... of radio worked out." It like, it blew me away. Right. And then we sat down at lunch and we started talking about our mutual love of music and the ritual that we would go through and when we bought a new album. [00:17:00] Oh. And we would talk about m- how music- You kids
Mike Glenn: don't know what you're missing-
because you did not buy an LP. Right. Because it was a community event. You get to, you get the album liner- Yeah ... and all that, read all about what musicians on it. Right. So Kyle and I
Chris O'Rear: talked
Mike Glenn: about
Chris O'Rear: how- Oh, man ... music served as a friend for us that we would escape into- Yeah ... when life was difficult. And we talked about what it was like to be a father and what it was like to be a husband.
And yeah, he and I did not always see eye to eye on different things. He'd say, "Well, I think it's this way." And I said, "I appreciate where you're coming from. I tend to lean this way." And we would talk about that, but we were committed to the relationship. Mm-hmm. He and I sat at that first lunch for two hours, and I'm like, "I can't wait to do this again."
And I thought, "Who woulda thought?"
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah.
Chris O'Rear: But- And he and I got together for, uh, many, many years on a regular basis.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, but, but, but, but a good friend like that, one, exposes you to a part of the world [00:18:00] that you normally would not have. So there is some level of something interesting- Yeah ... that, that you're finding out from this person.
Yeah. Uh, there's some point of connection. Uh, but the, the, uh, the biggest, the biggest thing for me in, in the friendship that I have with my, my, my friend is he shows up.
Chris O'Rear: Yeah. Uh, you know, my- Yeah. If you're having a, a hard day or something big's happening- He shows- ... he's gonna be there ...
Mike Glenn: he shows, uh, yeah, the, uh, the, the day after my father died- Mm
in Huntsville, Alabama- Mm ... uh, all the family's in our house, and we're shuffling around trying to get going in the morning, and we hear this motorcycle blow by the house. And my aunt goes, "Who's riding a motorcycle at 7:00 in the morning?" And, and my boys look at me, and they call the guy by name- [00:19:00] Mm ... say, "He's here."
Mm. And, uh, and we went out on the porch when he circled back and he saw us pulled in. He said- Uh-huh ... and he looked at me. He said, "I'm finally glad, I'm glad you finally got up. I've been circling the block since about 6:00
Chris O'Rear: this morning." Wow. Okay.
Mike Glenn: But he was there. Yeah, yeah. Now, he didn't, he didn't say, you know...
I don't remember anything that he said profound- Right ... uh, from, from the day that, that he spent- Right ... with me after my father died. I just knew, I- Well, I think
Chris O'Rear: that's an-
Mike Glenn: I'll never forget the sound of the motorcycle- Motorcycle, yeah ... in the morning.
Chris O'Rear: Motorcycle in the morning, it sounds like a great book title.
Yeah, that- You know? Well, that's a country music song. Yeah. Let's go and get us something on that. But it makes me think about the fact that so many times people avoid trying to be present with people- Mm-hmm ... or to sit with people who are hurting or who are grieving or to show up at times because they're like, "Well, I don't know what to say."
Yeah. Oh. And what's interesting is, like, you don't [00:20:00] remember- I don't remember things ... a thing that was said, but you remember he was there. And, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, just saying, "I don't know what to say, but I wanted to be here with you," would be better than trying to find the right thing. Yeah. You know?
Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah, with that. How important is this friendship thing?
Chris O'Rear: Um, like, for our mental health, for our emotional health, I think it is critical. I think it is an antidote to deep loneliness. I think it gives us a- That we
Mike Glenn: have the epidemic of right now.
Chris O'Rear: Yeah. Right. It, I, I think a good friendship in the way that we're thinking about it, um, helps us feel m- more comfortable in our own skin, helps us know, know ourselves better- Mm-hmm
and therefore gives us the ability to connect to God in a way that's, that's more meaningful. Yeah. So I think having meaningful relationships is a key to emotional and relational health across the board. I love
Mike Glenn: that part of scripture where we're [00:21:00] told that God talked to Moses face-to-face like a man talks to a friend.
Chris O'Rear: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Uh, and, and, and, and what it would be, an honor it would be to be introduced as- Yeah ... God's friend. Right. With that. So Yeah. This is Chris O'Rear. He is a licensed pastoral, uh, therapist, uh, counselor, licensed pastoral counselor Licensed pastoral therapist in the state of Tennessee. The- in the state of Tennessee That's our license, yeah Uh, has the counseling center, and you can, uh, find out more about him there.
The book, uh, that I want you to get and read is A Therapeutic Friendship. And, um, uh, it is so important with this, this crisis of loneliness we have and for a lot of what your people are dealing with and maybe what you're dealing with. And lastly, let me give you some homework out of this one. Go be a friend.
All right, I'm Mike Glenn. This is Engage Church Network [00:22:00] Podcast. Thanks for being with us.
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