Beyond the Hallmark Christmas | Shepherds Without Sheep
In this Christmas episode of the ECN Podcast, Shepherds Without Sheep, a panel of seasoned pastors talk honestly about ministry during the holidays-the scars, the joy, and the lessons learned along the way. With humor and humility, they share stories from decades of preaching Christmas and discovering that trusting the Word matters far more than big productions.
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Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] Well, you know, you say they lo- th- they know the story, and you and I know that every- A lot of them don't ... every, every na- nativity scene you go in and see the ha- is wrong. Yep. Yeah, of course. A wooden, wooden manger. Yeah. A wooden manger. A wooden manger. Wood, wood- Wise men are there ... wood m- The wise men are there.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's like With three gifts. Yeah, three. It's like, "Ah, this, this is not right." And a drummer. Yeah.
Michael Easley: Well, welcome to the broadcast. We're really not sure what we're doing- ... but we're called Shepherds Without Sheep, and Mike Glenn came up with a brilliant tagline for us.
Mike Glenn: We've made all the mistakes so you don't have to. That's us.
Tim Harlow: Three old pastors who- I've got the scar [00:01:00] right here. Oh, yeah. Bullet hole. Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, oh. Um, all right. The first- But we're still here. Maybe we should do some swag. The good news is we're still here. We should get some swag. We gotta
Michael Easley: get swag. Yeah. We made all the
Tim Harlow: mistakes. Welcome. We're glad you're here for whatever reason you showed up. Uh, first question is, uh, what does 67 mean? We, we're all trying to figure it out.
Um, you guys have a- any opinion? I mean, we just wanna, you know- No, it just reminds
Mike Glenn: me of how uncool I am- Oh, yeah ... uh, 'cause I got, I got, I got nothing. Look at this
Tim Harlow: cardigan, man. I don't- I got nothing ... I don't even know. This is my
Mike Glenn: birthday sweater. Is it your birthday? Yeah. 1964. It was Saturday. Happy birthday.
We should all sing. What year, what
Michael Easley: year did you get this cardigan sweater?
Mike Glenn: I got it Saturday. My wife gave it to me. Oh, just Saturday? Oh,
Michael Easley: shame on me. So. Yeah, yeah, now we're in trouble. Now you can take that up with Jeannie. I love that. You can take that up with Jeannie. I love that sweater. Yeah, Mr. Rogers.
Best sweater I've ever
Tim Harlow: seen. So, uh, one of the things we thought we'd talk about since, uh, this is gonna, this is rolling out in the holiday season, is as [00:02:00] shepherds, back when we had sheep, uh, the importance of the Christmas season and, and what that m- means to us. And in case you, like, are just- just joining us, we have the, like, uber theologian guy who's gonna give us all the theology stuff.
And then you got a couple of knuckleheads that are gonna- ... add color commentary. And, uh, and people enjoyed listening to pr- us preach a lot more, 'cause we were way funnier than he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. No doubt there. But he actually added material. So a- as we, as we, as we go through, we just- We had research.
We had research. Yes, we did. Um, talk about, let's talk about Christmas and the importance. I mean, I'm working on a couple of messages. I'm preaching a couple places over the holiday season, back- back home and another place, and, um, I, I looked at some old notes even early this morning and, and i- I've... It's like five years into the church I was at, you know, in Chicago, so I'm like 33, 34 or something, and I, I literally said, "You know, it's hard to preach at Christmas 'cause you guys have heard all my, all my best material."
And, [00:03:00] and I'm thinking about it now, I'm, I'm, you know... I did th- almost 34 years at that church. It's been 36 years of preaching, 40 years of full-time vocational. Same for all you guys. And I'm working on a message, and I've got new stuff- Hm ... because we continually learn more and more- Yeah ... about the Christmas story, and the, just the incredible depth of the Christmas story lends itself to- Mm-hmm
you know, just so much teaching. H- How did that work for you guys?
Mike Glenn: It changed depending on what um, moment or season of life I was in.
Tim Harlow: Absolutely, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh- Brilliant ... as, as my boys were born, I got a new understanding for Joseph. Right. Huh. Uh, you know, he's, he's the man that God trusts to watch over Jesus, and he loses the kid.
Yeah. Yeah, he does.
Tim Harlow: I still think that was Mary's fault, but- Yeah, yeah. No, it was Jesus. You know-
Michael Easley: Jesus has to own [00:04:00] that one. Come on. Okay.
Mike Glenn: Well, but you got one job. Yeah. One job, and you lose the kid. You know,
Michael Easley: in ancient Israel they had little leashes, you know- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... on babies. Made out
Tim Harlow: of leather.
Yeah. Uh, it, it, it's true, and, uh, Joseph was a righteous man- And compassionate ... and compassionate. That's,
Mike Glenn: that's the two things we
Tim Harlow: know about him. I mean, when you think about... I mean, but, uh, and that's part of what I'm, I'm gonna talk about in a, in a few weeks. It, it, it, it, when you think about who Joseph was, we...
I, I preach in, in Chicago to a 70% Catholic audience, and, you know, we o- obviously have Mary. Uh, they maybe have Mary a little too far over the, over the top- Just a little bit ... with all of that stuff. Uh, just, just knock it off for now, okay? And, and, and- We knew that would trigger you. I know. There's so many triggers for that.
No problem with idolatry. It's okay. Uh, it's, uh, it, it's impossible not to trigger him. But, but Joseph we don't talk about. Mm-hmm. And then he, he, he dies, and we don't, [00:05:00] we don't hear about him. Yeah. But he's a righteous man, and I, I'm just saying, like, that- And the dude is in the Christmas
Mike Glenn: story with two things.
This is the only two things he had. Okay. Right? One, he has a baby he knows is not his. Yeah, yeah. Now, I, I, I don't know if many of us have sat with the humiliation that that must... Everybody in town knew that baby wasn't- Right ... I mean, even then they could count to nine.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, yeah. Uh- They could ...
Mike Glenn: and he has a dream that this is the way God is working.
Michael Easley: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Have you ever tried to hold onto a dream? Hmm. You get up the next morning and go, "I, I dreamed something, and it had something." Well, the fact that the
Michael Easley: dream's recorded- Yeah ... you know, is like when Jesus, the Upper Room discourse. I mean, it's recorded for all of us to read- Yeah. Yeah ... and hear. So the, the account certainly was around.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, but, uh, I mean, uh, as, it- it's not just that, but even before he has the dream, he is a righteous man- Right, and he's not going to hurt her ... and he's going to put her-
Mike Glenn: Not
Tim Harlow: gonna [00:06:00] hurt her ... uh, give her divorce quietly, which meant he was giving up all of his rights. He was throwing himself on- Mm-hmm
you know, the mercy of the, of the people who were gonna say, "Oh, yeah, sure." Yeah, we should have stoned her. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, but to your point, preaching gets different every time. Mm-hmm. So you know what I'm thinking this time? Now that, now that I'm the old guy, I'm thinking, what did Joseph's parents think if they were still alive?
What did M- what were, what were Mary's parents thinking? Mm. Mm. How, what, you know, my perspective is now I've got grandkids and, you know, Mary shows up pregnant, and they didn't get a dream. Yeah. I mean- Yeah ...
Michael Easley: how do, I mean, I'm just saying- But, but you have to keep in mind, I mean, the, the, the, the account that Luke gives us, Elizabeth knows.
Mm-hmm. She's pregnant, and that's the parallel to Sarah and Abram. Right. You know, they're childless and in old age get pregnant. Yeah. That's the parallel to New Testament. So for the pious Jew, there was a hope. You know, I, I don't think we should just summarily throw her under the bus or [00:07:00] fictionalize what may or may not have happened because the scripture records the joy that she's had seeing Elizabeth.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, the, the scripture says he obeyed. He took, he went and did the taxes and the census. Right. And, you know, so I think the righteousness, to your point- Mm-hmm ... stood out in Joseph's life, and I bet the pious Jewish community around him were kinda, I bet they were more like, "Is this real?" Now certainly in a bell curve of any audience there were accusatorial- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
and suspicious natured people, but you have to believe the way the, the account unfolds, there was a, even her response to Gabriel, which is unfortunately misinterpreted, but, you know, "Who am I?" Right. "May the Lord's will be done to me." Yeah. Um, so I think at, at some level we ought to be careful with not over spe- I mean, that's, that's my, my
Tim Harlow: a- a- you know.
I think that, that's kinda mo- what my point's gonna be, Michael, and, and I think something that we ought to talk about. Uh, you know, I, I, I began my message making fun of Hallmark movies because it's just fun and easy to do, but we're [00:08:00] all looking for resolution, right? Mm-hmm. We're all looking for the fairy tale ending.
The reason Hallmark movies are so popular is because, you know, the, the, the two people that aren't supposed to be together get together and it's love and it's- Yeah, and they do it in an hour ... and it's awesome. Yeah. And they do it in an hour, and, you know, and, you know, she gives up her job in New York. A- always, you know?
It, it, but the reason that, that it's fun to watch that is because our reality is not that. Our reality is not, you know, happily ever after, and I think it's important for us to go back and understand from the Christmas story that, you know, there was no resolution. I mean, what did Simeon say? You know? Yeah.
I mean, that was the prophecy. It's not gonna be easy, and God picked the right people. Uh, and look at me, I'm getting- But, but- ... fired up. I'm getting goosebumps- But think- ... about doing this story ... but think
Michael Easley: of Simeon's comment when he holds the baby, "My eyes have seen the glory." Exactly. Yeah. "I can go die now. I mean, I've seen the reality- You can send-
Messiah born" ... your servant in peace," right? Yep. Yeah. And we're always looking
Tim Harlow: for peace. There's my peace. Especially to
Mike Glenn: die in [00:09:00] peace.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. That's
Mike Glenn: classic.
Michael Easley: Yeah. But think about living your whole life in a ministry context, and the one thing you're hoping for never happened. Yeah. And then right when you're about to exit- Yeah
boom. I mean, he was, he died a happy man, right? Yeah, yeah. And you gotta believe Elizabeth and, and, and, uh, you know, that whole connection, the family system, and then of course by John the Baptist and Jesus Christ and their ministry overlap. Yeah. I mean, it's just, I think there's more there. But to, back, back to, inject back a little bit to Christmas preaching, um, I always felt like your comment with same story, like Easter.
Yeah. Everybody knows the story. Right, right. And I think for younger pastors, and I think even thinking about how I approached it was trust the Word. Amen. Yeah. You, you don't have to be super creative- Yeah ... and have, you know, live farm animals in your- Yeah ... Christmas pageant. Yeah. You don't have to do that.
Yeah. Be, be careful with the a- account, teach the story well. Um, I did one, uh, year called The [00:10:00] Dreams of Christmas. Yeah. And then I followed different dreams- Right, mm-hmm ... and visions. Of course. And I did one on, um, I think it was on supernatural things, whether it was the star or the shepherds or the- Yeah, the angels
announcement or the- Yeah ... protection of the babies. Um, you know, I, I think a pastor can approach it differently. Um, but I'm always outcome-based. What do you want the congregation- Right ... to walk out the door with? Right. A, a romantic feel about Christmas. Yeah. Uh, hey, I'm gonna born, be more thankful this year.
Or do you, you want them to walk out with, man, these were real people who lived in a context that God chose to bring the Messiah to s- solve all the mess. Mm. And I think there's a- And they obeyed. Yeah. All the above. It was what they knew. And, and, yeah. It's what, what, what they knew. They- But, but to the, to the audience outcome as, as you pastored all those churches and, and where we served, I wanted them not to just sing some great Christmas carols- Yeah
and feel great about Christmas dinner- Exactly ... but to be confronted with, had He not been born to die, we would not live. Right. You know, some type of reminder. And [00:11:00] I, I don't think you can over, you can't overstate the resurrection at Easter, right?
Tim Harlow: No.
Michael Easley: Oh, they all know the story. Well- Mm ... you better be faithful to explain that story accurately and trust that God's word and God's Spirit are gonna be powerful, not just you and me trying to-
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, you say they lo- they, they know the story, and you and I know that every- A lot of them don't, but yeah
every, every na- nativity scene you go in and see the ha- is wrong. Yep. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Wooden manger. A wooden manger. A wooden manger. Wisemen are there. Wooden, the wisemen are there. Yeah. And it's like With three gifts. Yeah, three. It's like, ah, this- And a drummer boy ... this is not right. Yeah. So tell me about the great sermon you preached on the innkeeper.
Tim Harlow: Yeah, I know, I know. What... And they don't even know what we're talking about, but, you know, uh, i- but that's part of, that's part of what beau- the beauty of the l- living word, is that i- and what he's talking about, in case you don't know, is there was no innkeeper. Never mentioned in the story. There, there, there's not an inn in Bethlehem.
It's a tiny little birth. Cattle, you mean cattle weren't lowing? The cattle weren't lowing. Cattle weren't lowing? And the poor baby boy- The baby [00:12:00] wasn't awake. Uh, uh, no crying he makes. No, that's, that's, none of that is r- is reality. The word is guest room. It's the same word that is used for the upper room.
We just translated it. So, so wait a minute, wait a minute. So
Michael Easley: all the, all the language we just used, so Hillsong's doing nothing new. No, no, you're right. We had to trigger him somehow, didn't we? The
Tim Harlow: thing- Bad theology's always with us. That's my point. But, but to, to my point, I think the fun of it, and I just wanna encourage, you know, young pastors out there, man, preach Christmas.
Yeah. Okay? You know, I mean, i- if you're in a series and you, you're gonna wait for the last week to, to do any Christmas stuff, that's fine. But as a guy who did it 33 years in a row, and I did it three or four weekends- Oh, yeah ... e- every- Oh, yeah ... every year, I would not, I ... And for a while, we did At The Movies, you know, the, the, the fun At The Movies thing that Life.Church does.
And, and we, we did At The Movies, and we used movies and turned them into Christmas [00:13:00] themes, and it was s- super fun because there's so many different ways to talk about this beautiful story of Christmas.
Michael Easley: And, and I, it's always the assumption, but, you know, preach a clear gospel. Yeah. I mean, uh- We often think, I don't know, and especially in the Baptist tradition, goodness, have they not heard the gospel over and over and over?
And we kinda lose the, the, okay, they know it- Mm-hmm ... I don't need to say it again. Yeah. But there's also the element, again, back to the story, the story is God's word, and I, I should depend on that and not... And I don't dis- besmirch creativity, believe me. But if, if the, the wrapper and the gift are powerful but the contents are empty- Yeah
it's hollow. Yeah. It's a feeling I walk home with. Mm-hmm. I don't care. Yeah. I would, I'd rather them walk out with a, a truth that they know Christ loves them, He, He was born to die that they might live, and that He had them in mind. You know, to make it personal- Yeah ... and draw, drive it home. Yeah. And this is a precious thing we have as a culture that we can st- And I, I've always been kind of a Grinch because of the [00:14:00] materialism and the- Right
distractions of Christmas. And over the years, that's probably where I've softened the most, is this is an opportunity where we've talked about Easter and Christmas Christians, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, church participants for decades in the ministry. They're not gonna come back 'cause you preached a great sermon
No. Mm-mm. Uh-uh. No. But boy, if they came twice a year, are they gonna clearly hear-
Tim Harlow: I can't tell you how many people, as I was walking away, how many people said, "My first, my first weekend was Christmas Eve." Yep. Mm-hmm. Right. And we would blow them up. Right. We would do them big, and we had a bunch of them.
And, and, you know, I mean, that's the opportunity. So we had- They, they're looking for something ...
Michael Easley: we had pageants. You had pageants. We had the big Easter thing, n- uh, nine, 11 performances. Yeah. We had like nine- Right ... Christmas things. Um, when you look back on it now, and you've, Mike, you said it's a different generation of preaching and teaching.
Mm-hmm. What do we do now? What do younger guys do? 'Cause they're not gonna do an Easter pageant or a Christmas musical probably. No Christmas trees anymore, living Christmas trees. Oh. Did you ever do a living Christmas tree at- N- [00:15:00] not a living Christmas tree. We did
Mike Glenn: everything but, but- Yeah ... we didn't, we didn't do that one.
What would you do today? Nothing. Nothing? Nothing. No. In, in that, what I would do is I would, I would give, I would give the holidays back to the families Would you give them some structure? I would give them structure. Okay. I, I, an, an advent- Advent ... candle- Mm ... kind of thing. A day-to-day- Mm-hmm ... thing to do with the family.
But I would encourage my folks, one, sit down together as a family and do what is best for you at Christmas, not what's best for your, your in-laws or your parents or whatever. There was one time we took the boys on a grand f- family tour. Yeah. Ooh. We got home, they're miserable, uh, angry, tired. We're miserable, and I looked at Jeannie, I said, "You know, we've made everybody happy but us."
Yeah. Yeah. Well- I said, "That's, that's it. We're not doing this anymore." Well, you may not have made the grandparents that happy after all. Anyway. That's right. But- Really, they weren't here long enough ... that's, yeah, kind of thing, so. But, but I do think, uh, th- that we put so much pressure on families to do [00:16:00] Christmas that we've just taken all the joy out of it.
Michael Easley: But aren't there, uh, isn't there a Christmas monster in every home, whether it's the wife or the husband who... I mean, they're alwa- it's like, you know- Yeah, yeah ... National Lampoon Christmas. Right. Exactly. I mean, you gotta have everything. Yeah. And, uh-
Tim Harlow: We're gonna have the hap- hap- happiest Christmas. What would you do?
Michael Easley: What would you do- Well- ... today? I'm gonna,
Tim Harlow: I, I'm, I'm gonna agree with that, but from a church leader standpoint, I believe that that's where, yeah, cut all the other dumb stuff- Right ... that you've got going on. Right. Um, and we would even, and, uh, uh, you know, cut, this might be controversial, but if Christmas was on a s- Wednesday, we would do a Christmas Eve service on the Sunday morning before that.
We didn't do a separate, we just did as many opportunities to do that Christmas Eve, that last Christmas service so that they could come because they n- wanted time with their family, but they also really wanted the opportunity to, for their family to [00:17:00] come- And wa- ... and hear the gospel. Right.
Michael Easley: So what do you do on a Christmas Sunday?
At a Chri- the year, uh- Sunday, Sunday, when Christmas falls on Sundays. Oh, we
Mike Glenn: had, we, we didn't have it. Did you? Yeah, we had it. Yeah. But, but it was, it was one service, really relaxed.
Michael Easley: Yeah, we did the Thanksgiving. Yeah. We had like a 10:00 just... Well, and, and this goes back. You, you and I are old n- we're older now, and we can say these things with bravado.
Yeah. But when you're a 30-something pastor with some deacons or elders- Oh, yeah ... or leaders, "We gotta have this, we gotta have the pageant and the choir and the orchestra and, you know, the tapestry," I mean, are you gonna have the, either the stupidity or the courage to say no? Um,
Tim Harlow: let me, yeah, let me tell, let me talk about what we did 'cause we, um, I mean, it didn't matter when Christmas was, we completely took the next weekend off.
We didn't have- The Sunday services as well ... any services the next weekend. Yeah. Because we had done I mean, at one point, in three campuses, we did 28 Christmas Eve- Yeah ... services. And, and s- and our [00:18:00] staff was fried- They're exhausted, yeah ... and our volunteers were fried. And- Well, your
Mike Glenn: people take the next Sunday off.
Tim Harlow: Well, they're gonna take it off anyway. And what are you gonna do? You're gonna give it to the junior guy on staff, you know, and, and, and that's kinda rude anyway. So what we do is we prepa- we would prepare a really good, you know, online presentation, whatever, like we did during COVID, and we would, we would throw that out to the people and, and, and, and then the deacons' questions are gonna be, "Well, what about the offering?"
Offering. "What about the offering?" Everybody gives online now, and if they don't give online now, you need to be pushing them that direction anyway- Yeah ... because we all learned that in COVID really fast. I mean, that- Mm ... that's just a different... I mean, by that time, people have figured out what they're doing and with their money.
And man, it was just a really important thing for us- Yeah ... to just say, "Go do it." I, I s-
Michael Easley: I... Again, we can talk about it with a long rear view mirror. Yeah. But I think for young guys in that, you know, to have a sensitivity, this is not an easy change to make. Oh, no. And if they're in an exi- a [00:19:00] older church that's been doing it, uh, you know, in your early- Yeah
churches in the Baptist world, you couldn't- Oh, no ... have made those big changes. No. Yeah. Uh-uh. No. No. I was in a church, back to your point, Christmas Eve, um, in, in Nor- NoVA DC, where the c- the Egs- Easter and Christmas vehicles were the vehicle to bring people to church. Right. Right. And when they would s- come back, they would say, "We came to a Easter pageant."
Yeah. Right. Right. "We came to a Christmas musical." Yeah. So you couldn't deny that. No,
Tim Harlow: no.
Michael Easley: And you had a huge budget, lots of people- Yeah ... lots of staff, orchestra, choir, costumes, drama, you know, a lot of volunteers involved with that.
Mike Glenn: I, I think, uh, to, to your point, I think you have to sit down with your, with your leaders or your congregation and say, "How do we best celebrate Christmas here?"
With the emphasis on celebrate, not how do we burden you with Christmas- Yeah, yeah ... but how do we- Right ... celebrate Christmas? Right. Right, right, right. How, how, how does that work? And for some of, of the folks, it's gonna be a traditional pageant. It's gonna be a, a, a choir concert, uh, uh, uh, that, that kind of stuff.
For others, it's gonna be way, [00:20:00] way more simple than that. But this thing of we've done this for 50 years, and we're gonna impose it again, when I started asking questions about all that we were doing and the money it cost- Yeah ... and all of that- Yeah ... then people started thinking, "Okay, maybe- And what was the result?
"What was the result?"
Tim Harlow: Right Was it just people from other churches coming as- Yeah ... seekers? Well, we had those- And, and that's what we heard ... probably we did too. We had buses- We heard a lot of it ... from Lancaster,
Michael Easley: Pennsylvania- Yeah, yeah ... would bus in to see the programs. Yeah. Yeah. And we were happy about it.
Tim Harlow: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it, it's, it's okay to serve the, the, you know, the people. Yeah. But if you're, you know, it goes back to what's your vision- But, but after- ... what's your mission, what's your goal? ... after
Mike Glenn: pageant, it was notorious that, that everybody in the church who was in any leadership role was sick for the next two weeks.
Exactly. Oh, dur- and during it too. After. Yeah, yeah. They get the flu or, yeah. They, yeah, because, you know, hanging out- Like a lockdown ... with that many people, and then, and then, you know, everybody's tired and burned out- Yeah, right ... and everything else. Yeah. And so the next two weeks was
Tim Harlow: just lost. Well, to your point, Mike, I think, I mean, as we're talking to young pastors [00:21:00] out there who have sheep, um, you know, see, we don't care.
We don't have any sheep. So- We don't have any deacons ... so- We don't have any elders. We made all the mistakes and, uh- We made all the mistakes, so you don't have to. Right. Um, like, so let's just say you do a cantata, you know, you're at a church and, you know, there's a big Christmas cantata, and it's always the, the Sunday before Christmas or whatever.
So, so great. Introduce maybe a candlelight Christmas Eve service. Yes. Introduce something that, that is more... And, and again, to your point, I mean, we did blow ours out, but the most important thing we did is we sang Silent Night and we lit candles and we had communion, and I told the, you know, I told the Christmas story.
That was the most important event. Okay.
Michael Easley: Theologically, why have the Lord's Supper on the birth of the Savior? "
Tim Harlow: Whenever you do this, do this in remembrance of me." It- I'm, I'm just, I'm just curious- No, no, no ... why you would do it. It's not right or wrong. The Catholic culture, okay- Well, that's- So- ...
Michael Easley: that's a different [00:22:00] thing
so, I, if I get
Tim Harlow: the Eu- Okay ... uh, well, I gotta have the Eucharist every opportunity that I can for them. If they come in and it's this crazy weird service and, you know, we've done all these crazy, and we've got a band and there's like, I don't know what's going on, and then the message is fairly normal and we- Okay
lead into, uh, communion at the end, and they're welcome to take it, it's just like, wow.
Mike Glenn: Mm. I also, I also think it's a nice moment for, to, to your point earlier. Uh, this is just not a cute baby being born. Th- th- this baby is, is- Son of God, Messiah ... was, was born, born to die. King
Michael Easley: of Kings
Mike Glenn: And you don't ever look at him without understanding that this is his body that he broke for you So
Michael Easley: again, to our younger selves, be, be clear on that message.
Mm-hmm. Explain why. Mm-hmm. And I've, I've always been... I mean, we, we attend a wonderful church now, and I always feel like communion is, or Lord's supper is cursory. We- we're not taking the time to- Mm-hmm ... really [00:23:00] explain why would you do that on Christmas Eve? Mm-hmm. And if I know I've got an eclectic audience theologically on those events- Right
all the more important- Absolutely ... that, you know- To, to drive the stake in the ground ... we're remembering that he was born to die that we might live, and, and this commemorates that death, burial, and resurrection. The, the other thing that, that I would add or ask is what do you now do on Christmas and Christmas Eve as a, as a retired or whatever we call ourselves- Wow
and a father and a grandfather, and you got sons and daughters-in-law, and- Yeah ... you know? And when we're in our 30s we're s- you know, we're swimming upstream and everything's important and we're busy. And, and all of a sudden now we're on the other side of this looking back going, "What's of value?" You know, we, we've talked about a friend of ours says retirement is the slow death of ego.
So we're out of that now. Yeah. That's 100% true. We're out of that now. I don't even know if it's... It's not slow. It's a quick... It's a, it's a, it's a quick [00:24:00] death of ego, yeah. That's right. I'm thinking about retiring. Okay, new guy. That's right. Um, and while you're thinking about that, while my mind's running, the church I served before Stonebridge, they had a wonderful thing at Christmas called Less Under Our Tree, More for the World.
Right. Yeah. And they did a huge... That was their mission's global emphasis. Right. So for the last two months, and they raked in a lot of money. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And they would bring in missionaries that they supported, global partners they called them, and they would talk about an individual, and they would lavish money.
And you, you see children grow up in that environment. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Less under our tree, more for the world. That's pretty powerful as, as a DNA. Yeah. But anyways, so back to grandparents retiring. Well, yeah,
Tim Harlow: it's, it, it... I'll answer that question because the thing I miss the most about being a senior pastor of a local church is Christmas.
Interesting. I love preaching Christmas. I love doing- 10 Christmas Eve services Wow Um, because [00:25:00] my heart's for the, those, those ones that were far from God that- Right ... that might find, find Jesus there, and it was the perfect opportunity. My wife said, "Now that you're done, you will never do it again- "... because you were worthless- Gone.
You're gone ... to the family- Yeah ... after, after all that." Yeah. And I, you know, I, I wanna caution the balance on that. I mean, you know, that you gotta be able to be there. We had a daughter in pediatric intensive care one Christmas season, you know? Whoa. And trying to navigate all that. You gotta figure out how to n- not mess up your family along the way.
But now that I'm at this point, I'm leaning into the family, obviously, and I won't preach that
Mike Glenn: weekend. Well, I'm like you. The, the, the f- my favorite moment of everything was that when all the candles were lit- Yeah, yeah ... and, and there was this- Silent night ... acapella singing Silent Night- Silent night ... and you were standing there holding it in front of that.
Yeah. I [00:26:00] would, I, you know, I would trade everything for that, for that one moment. Exactly. The big question now is, are you the parents that are coming to that Christmas? Is it your Christmas on or off? Yeah. And the family dynamics- Because, because if- ... and tensions and- ... if, if the boys- Yeah ... are, are taking their fam- to the daughter-in-laws and that, and the in-laws, then it's just Jeanie and me.
Mm-hmm. Well- And that's a, that's a different kind of Christmas. It's a good Christmas, uh, but- A- a- and we have to, we have to, we have to
Tim Harlow: manage that. Yeah. Yeah. That's
Mike Glenn: all there is to it.
Michael Easley: Cindy and I adopted the posture of we always want our kids to be free with their in-laws- Right, yeah ... and respective things and, and their own family traditions.
Mm-hmm. 'Cause I didn't grow up with my grandparents involved in family- Yeah ... at Christmas. Yeah. No, I didn't either. Hardly knew 'em. Yeah, me too. Uh, and, and so you're, you're always trying to relive your experience better. And, and so what we decided was, look, you do what you wanna do. We'll try to make up for it another time.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Michael Easley: And we try to do, whether it's one couple or two of them or all of them. Yeah. And, uh, and the grandkids of course are, you know, they're delightful at, at [00:27:00] Christmas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But Cindy and I spend Christmas alone. Yeah. We have for the last several years.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. '
Michael Easley: Cause we want them to have that freedom.
Well,
Mike Glenn: and, and, and w- I sat down with my daughter-in-laws and said, "Listen." Uh, I said, "You have to understand that our entire life up to this moment was about the boys." It was Chris and Craig, the boys. Yeah. And I said, "The only thing I'd ask of you is work it out so that we're all together."
Tim Harlow: Yeah
Mike Glenn: So if it's the 29th, for- I don't care Well, that's what I was gonna say And so, yeah.
That- So I, I don't care. I just, there is this thing about all the boy, the boys being together with their families, and us- Has that worked out well? Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. And they'll call and tell us- Good ... and say, "Hey, we're all gonna be back in town this day," and so- Good ... that, that works out That's exactly what we did.
Tim Harlow: W- all of our g- girls were all doing ministry. I don't know, I just started a controversy among the Baptists out of that, but, um, all of our girls were doing ministry. Just some of the Baptists. Yeah, that's right. I, I didn't trigger. Okay, good. I threatened some of them. Some of them. And, uh, it just, so they all had, y- and they were two in California, and one was [00:28:00] here, and we were in Chicago, so we just alway- and I had my stuff.
We had, Denise and I had our stuff, so we just planned on the 27th or so- Yeah ... was Christmas, you know? 26th, the night of was Christmas Eve. And- It's, it's Christmas when you show up ... it's Christmas. A- and even, at, at one point, my wife was, was like, she made this, I don't know how she got it in her head that this Christmas casserole thing that she made was super important on Christmas Eve.
Stuffed shells, it was amazing. Um, but it was a lot of work. But she would bring it to church on Christmas Eve, and we would eat in between services, you know? Oh, wow. And, and just, you know, have a little bit of family time. You just gotta, you gotta manage it. You gotta, you
Mike Glenn: gotta do it where you can. Yeah. Hey, by, by the way, you do know the 25th is a made-up day.
Right. So- Right ... so you can move Christmas anywhere you want to. Now we're blowing their minds. There's no
Tim Harlow: inn? There's no inn. Their Christmas is not on the 25th? Oh. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, whenever I mention that there- Uh-huh ... there was no innkeeper, I, I remind, I, I, I have stopped for some of them, "We're the innkeeper in the, in the pageant."
I know. And [00:29:00] now they- I know ... they got this existential crisis. Well- I did... No I'm just still upset about
Michael Easley: the wooden mangers. I'm like, "Damn, it's stone. It's a basin." Yeah. But what is, what is
Tim Harlow: Max Lucado supposed to do with all of his writing that- That's his problem ... you know, at this point, you know? I mean, it's, it's like, it's all based on, all the stories we used to tell are based on all the, all the myths of- Yeah, yeah
of what we created at Christmas. So for the most part, I leave it alone. It's okay. You know? It, it's not, it's not really worth going in and, and blowing the whole thing up. But you know what? Their family was in Bethlehem. They were, they were in a home without animals, even though it was a manger. There's a, there's a whole lot of nuance to what went on that, we've all been to Bethlehem.
We can tell you it was probably a cave. It, it's just a different story, but you don't need to mess it up. I just believe that the, that the point of the Christmas story is, is a hope in a reality, hope in a situation for Mary and Joseph, for all of them. I mean, [00:30:00] the- In this messy moment ... in, in those messy moments.
It's Christ-mess- Yeah, yeah ... is what it is, yeah. It, it, it, and, and it's not gonna be resolved. It's not gonna be wrapped up at the end of this 90-minute movie. No, I think
Mike Glenn: that, and that's one of the interesting things. We, we look for, for Christmas to be the moment when it's all resolved. Christmas is the moment that the question is asked.
Tim Harlow: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: Well said. Yeah Yeah. Not the answer given- Yeah ... but the questions asked.
Tim Harlow: Mm-hmm. Is that a good place to drop? It seems like it. I mean, I think that's a mic drop.
Michael Easley: Mike, you gave us the mic drop, and I wanna talk about one book that I just came across recently. It's a Crossway book by Leland Ryken called, uh, Journey to Bethlehem: A Treasury of Classic Christmas Devotions.
And if I was in ministry today, I would have that book, I'd pull it out October, and I'd be scanning through it, looking for ideas, for illustration, for support material. Ryken's brilliant, and you will be... You, you'll love these stories. They're very accessible, and, uh, it's good scholarship. So put that one on your [00:31:00] shelf for next year.
Journey to Bethlehem by Leland
Mike Glenn: Ryken. Okay.
