ECN's BEST Guests of 2025
We’re bringing you a special Best of ECN collection featuring some of the most impactful conversations of the year. From leadership to spiritual formation to navigating real-life challenges with wisdom, these moments represent the heart of why ECN exists: to strengthen pastors, encourage leaders, and build healthier churches.
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Mike Glenn: [00:00:00] 2025 has been an exciting and an incredible year at the Engage Church Network. Now, I know a lot of times we throw around words like that, and sometimes we're just exaggerating. But no, for real, it has been an amazing year. For one thing, we have started the School of Ministry. We have started our first cohort, and now we're engaging our second cohort of laypeople that we're training to be actively, uh, prepared to lead local congregations right here in the Middle Tennessee area.
Uh, that's developed with the coaching ministry and the c- and consulting ministry. You have been part of that, and we're very, very grateful for your support and for your participation. Here are a few highlights of this past year that's setting us up for an even better year in 2026.[00:01:00]
Dave Ramsey : These days when we look back, we know that now over 50,000 churches have taught Financial Peace University. So we've had a lot of interaction with pastors. And you, you know, we did a pastor's conference for some of the top pastors- Mm-hmm ... those super large churches that- Mm-hmm ... you used to come to. Uh, we used to do those, uh, stewardship summits, we called them.
Uh, did them for several years, and they were a lot of fun. But it was just a- Yeah ... handful of people, just 50 people. Right. But still, point being I've, I've interacted with a bazillion pastors- Mm-hmm ... over the years on this exact subject. And what we find is, is that, uh, most pastors, that's not, not all, but most pastors, um, are human, and they, um, are not great with money.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey : And, uh, so- The pastors themselves can't manage their money. Yeah. Okay. Their personal finances- Okay ... uh, [00:02:00] are not great. But that just means they're a person in America. Mm-hmm. Right? That doesn't mean they're better or worse. It just means they're a human being. A- and so, but they don't feel, uh, they, they feel like a hypocrite to tell somebody else- Mm-hmm
how to do it if they're not doing it right, or they feel a little bit of shame, uh, on that. Uh, and so that's one thing that keeps them from, uh, talking about money out of the pulpit. And the second thing is what you said, is they don't wanna be, uh, put in the category- Right ... of somebody that's just, the church is here to take- Mm-hmm
rather than the church is here to bless- Mm-hmm ... a- and to be a, a giver. A- and so they don't wanna be a parasite. They don't wanna have the reput- all that church wants is your money. Right, right. They don't want that to be said about them. Yeah. And so to shy away from those two things, uh, because of the shame or the, uh, I, I don't feel confident or competent- Mm-hmm
uh, and I certainly don't wanna appear to be, you know, a gantry. A- and so, um- [00:03:00] You know, that too many of them abandon it. And then, but our friend Craig Groeschel has one of the best sayings on this I've ever heard. He said, "Why is it that wealth is the only blessing from God we feel like we need to apologize for?"
We don't apologize to, about- Right ... God giving us health.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey : Um, he's blessed me with great children. Mm-hmm. He's blessed me with great grandchildren- Mm ... like you and me. Right. Uh, he's blessed me with a business. Mm-hmm. He's blessed me with, uh, longevity. He's blessed me with whatever. Mm-hmm. But, but we don't, we don't think anything at all about thanking God for that publicly and loudly.
Right. But when it comes to, you know, w- he's blessed me financially, it's like, oh, he's... Yeah, yeah. We have to, we have to- Get, I'm getting by. I have to- I'm getting by. I don't have time. I just, I have to drive a used Camry- Yeah, yeah ... because that's, that's the holy car of the evangelical.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. So, so how then do we talk about money?
Dave Ramsey : I think we talk about it, um, through the lens of scripture.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey : Um, [00:04:00] you know- I- imagine that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I, I was ta- I was ta- talking to our team the other day. I always do a thing when our team's been with us for 90 days, we call it Wrap with Dave. At the end of 90 days, it's the wrap-up of their onboarding.
Mm-hmm. And they get to ask questions, and I tell old stories about the old days. And I was talking about, uh, of all the books I've written and all the books we've sold, uh, all of them, we did the thing first, and then we wrote it. Right. So I did The Baby Steps. Um, I did, you know, I, I run a business, so I wrote Entre Leadership- Mm-hmm
on how to run a business, on and on and on. Mm. Uh, Smart Money Smart Kids. I had raised kids that turned out- Mm ... money-wise and everything else, not perfect, but they turned out, so we wrote a book about that. Here's how you raise kids. So the one exception of that was the first one. I'm bankrupt- ... sitting on a card table in my living room, and nobody gives a rip- Yeah
who Dave Ramsey is. Yeah. And if they did know who he was, they wouldn't want his opinion- Mm-hmm ... 'cause he's a bankrupt guy. Mm-hmm. [00:05:00] Who wants to take financial advice from a bankrupt guy? That's kind of dumb. And so, but I just had this, uh, burden I was supposed to write a book, and I didn't know whether I was writing it for the catharsis to overcome having gone broke, the healing from that, or what I, whether I was writing it because God was calling me to.
I wasn't sure, but I was just pouring it out. Mm-hmm. And I'm not a writer, so it was really hard for me. So that book, I didn't have the ability to lean on anything for credibility, 'cause there was none. Right. All... I didn't even have social proof. I didn't have, we hadn't, hadn't been in the marketplace and proved it.
That's right. I mean, if you, if you wanna argue with us today, that's just dumb- Mm-hmm ... 'cause we've got millions of proof text. Right. So I mean, we, what, you're just wrong. You know. I mean, it's just that. But back then, it was like, I don't know. I mean- Yeah ... I, who wants to listen to- so we were leaning on scripture.
Mm-hmm. And so I said, "Okay, this is what God says, and this is what your grandma said." Mm-hmm. So common sense and scripture. Yeah. It happens to be the same thing. I remember your radio show used to quote a lot of [00:06:00] Proverbs. Still do. Yeah. Yeah, still do. And, 'cause I mean, if you read Proverbs over and over and over again, there's 31, we all know you can do one a day.
Yeah. Have a little spiritual one a day vitamin. Mm-hmm. And, uh, if you read it over and over again, you get a master's degree in finance if you- Right ... actually understand it. Mm-hmm. It's all in there. It's amazing book of instruction and wisdom. Mm-hmm. We, and, and any of us know scripture know that about Proverbs.
Um, very, very, uh, prescriptive and, uh, instructional.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm. And
Dave Ramsey : so it's do this, don't do that. Uh, very, which guys like me need, I need a, just a, the, don't, this is dumb, this is smart. That's right. The fool does this, the wise does this. Mm-hmm. I really need that. Mm-hmm. And I go, I'm gonna opt for the wise column 'cause the fool column leaves pain in my life.
So- ... I'm not gonna do that. So, but that, that's what we started doing. We, we leaned in on, long story, but l- we leaned in on and said, "Okay, the authority here is God." Mm-hmm. And so you can argue with me, and you [00:07:00] very well could be right. Right. But if you wanna argue with God, well, that's probably dumb.
Thomas West: Right.
Dave Ramsey : And so when he says the, "The rich rules over the poor and the borrower is slave to the lender," we ought to think about the implications of slavery- Mm-hmm ... into modern day society. What does that look like? Means you've had your choices taken away. Right. Had your options- Right ... taken away. Mm-hmm. Um, don't, never met a generous slave.
Yeah. Your money is spent before it gets to you. Yeah, I mean, it, it, there's a, the, the, what happens to the slave's spirit? Mm-hmm. What happens to their relationships? What happens, I mean, so it's not just simply mathematically I don't have any money 'cause I gave it all to the bank- Right ... in payments. Which is the first level of understanding probably, but as you get further down into it, the socioeconomic impacts of, of slavery, whether it's a modern day version or an actual- Mm-hmm
slavery, um, I mean, we don't wanna compare it to human trafficking. That's not fair. But, um, I mean, it's very instructional- Yeah ... when you start looking at it, and you go, okay. And so [00:08:00] argue with that in a culture completely obsessed with borrowing money.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Dave Ramsey : Perfect- Told, told we're not wise if we're not using other people's money.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Or- You're just, you're just really unsophisticated. Right. You don't understand. You're just one of those guys. Yeah. And I've got all the degrees and the letters- Mm-hmm ... and licenses after my name that says I'm supposed to know something about money, but I was sitting there bankrupt when I wrote this book, so apparently some of that was wrong.
You know, it's ... But, you know, a- and so I'm gonna decide which source of information is gonna be my plumb line. Mm-hmm. Is gonna be my compass. And is it gonna be my broke finance professor? Think about that one. Broke finance professor. That's like a shop teacher with missing fingers, you know? So, or, or, or is it gonna be the great I am?
Right. The alpha and the omega. And, uh, is it gonna be the, the lover of my soul? Mm-hmm. My heavenly Father who sent His only Son to die for my [00:09:00] sins. Where am I gonna line up on who's- Yeah ... instructing me? Right. To me, it became a no-brainer at that- Mm-hmm ... point in my
Mike Glenn: life. Mm-hmm. It's interesting that you tied your financial freedom to the Gospel itself.
Dave Ramsey : Well, it is. Yeah. I mean, because you, you just have to stop and again, we're, we're, what's informing the, um, the information that you're using? Mm-hmm. Where, what's the source, and is the source trustworthy, worthy of trust? Mm-hmm. And can I lean on that, or am I gonna fall over when I lean on it? Right. And so, um, and again, I had gone broke using the OPM method, the other peop- other people's- Right
money method, the power of leverage. I can teach you- ... the math on all that, but I also- But
Mike Glenn: in the
Dave Ramsey : end, it doesn't add up ... but I also had a house of cards sitting in my lap. Yeah. You know?
Mike Glenn: Let me take a risk of embarrassing you a little bit. Few people understand how generous you are and how generous your family is.
And, uh, and, and those of us who have the privilege of, [00:10:00] of, of being part of your life n- know of situations where you have. Uh, talk to me about how, how you learned generosity and, and what goes through, uh, Dave's mind when you're deciding how to be generous and when generosity hurts. Mm-hmm. Uh, those kind of things.
You and I know of situations where if you put more money into it, it's actually gonna backfire. Right,
Dave Ramsey : right.
Mike Glenn: That's just enabling.
Dave Ramsey : Yeah, right. And we don't wanna do that. Um, when you throw money at a broken system, it doesn't fix it. That's right. It makes it bigger. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, when we're, with the Ramsey Family Foundation, when we're selecting a ministry that we're going to give to, we don't want to be a harm to them.
Mm-hmm. And sometimes throwing money on something that's not working well is a harm, is harmful. Right. Instead of helping them align with some kind of business acumen or some kind of truth that they- Mm-hmm ... need to get some systems or processes fixed. Sometimes we [00:11:00] can go in and do that. Right. And that's a better gift than a cash gift.
Yeah. Um, other times, just, we just can't be involved- Mm-hmm ... because it's not a good use of God's money. And 'cause we're not really blessing His children, we're really, we're giving the keys to a brand-new Corvette to a 14-year-old who hasn't had driving lessons. Right.
Mike Glenn: BB is like most men, um, is lonely Uh, everything on the outside is phenomenal.
Uh, career, uh, recognition, fan- all of those things that you write down of, "Here are the things I want in my life," BB has 'em, but he is lonely. So spur of the moment I say, "Listen, I got a group that meets of, uh, uh, guys at 6:30 tomorrow morning and, uh, why don't you to join us?" So lo and behold, uh, BB joins, uh, a group of eight or nine, uh, wh- white young entrepreneurs.
Didn't know. Didn't know. And you and I, you and I are the old guys- Yeah, yeah ... uh, in this room. [00:12:00] So, uh, I, I tell people all the time, "You gotta be in a group. You gotta be in a group." Uh, there's something- Yes ... about discipleship. There's something about obedience. There's something about people there that have your back, uh, that, that keep you, uh, upright in the faith.
And, uh, and so that's what we're gonna talk about. BB, tell me about joining the group on Wednesday morning. First of all, I'm glad I didn't
BeBe Winans: dress up. I, I wanna out-dress you on your show. That's right. So I'm glad I didn't dress up. Um, what was the question?
Mike Glenn: See what I deal with? Oh. This is all the time. This, this happens in Bible study.
Um, tell me about
BeBe Winans: joining- Joining the group ... the Bible study with the group The Bible study. Well, first of all, because you invited me. It wasn't like it was an invitation. You told me to come. Well,
Mike Glenn: I, I do have that way. [00:13:00] And, yeah.
BeBe Winans: I
Mike Glenn: knew
BeBe Winans: had that way
Mike Glenn: about me. Yeah. Yeah,
BeBe Winans: and I've learned to be obedient most of the time.
Um, but when I came, I, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it because being in the public eye a lot, I enjoy just being by myself. Right. I really enjoy being by myself. I understand that. And, and then it's, y- you know, it's, it's dangerous or you have to be brave to share your personal life with people you don't know.
Mm-hmm. You know? And because one of the things you try to hold onto is your personal life- Mm-hmm ... when you're in the public eye. Um, but after coming, I was just, um, I was surprised at how I felt. I was surprised how much I enjoyed it. Um, [00:14:00] and it was not just learning more about who Jesus is in a Bible study- Mm-hmm
'cause I've been in Bible studies all- Right ... my life. Um, but it was just a connection that I was looking for. Mm-hmm. And didn't know that- This group that you invited to me, me to come to was going to fulfill some of the things that I needed Such as? Such as accountability. Mm-hmm. Um, friendships that go, uh, deeper than just hello, goodbye.
Right. You know, when you, when you're with a group of people that really becomes family, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and as time went on, this group became so much more than just a group of guys. Right. But it became- Mm-hmm ... a group of people who care about me. Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] And I cared about them. Um, so, and then it was laughter, it was fun.
Mm-hmm. Those are very important words Yeah ... in my catalog. Yeah. If I can't laugh, then I don't need to be there. Right. And so that is a medication that we all experience when we come together. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, it's fun for me, um, to, to, to be in a situation where, uh, we do serious discipleship work- Mm-hmm ... but, but, but we do it in a, in a fun way.
Like- Yeah ... uh, the night that one of our friends said he needed to pray with his wife, and he wanted to do that- Mm-hmm ... but couldn't get started, so we all texted him at 8:00. Ow. And so he's sitting with his wife, and his phone blows up. Oh. And he has to tell her, "Uh, I, I, we gotta pray now because-" We gotta
BeBe Winans: pray.
I know I never prayed before, but we gotta pray today. Dear Lord, we gotta pray now. It's like I wanted to see how his wife was looking at him. Yeah. Like, what happened to you? [00:16:00] Right. But yes, it's... And, and, and, and, um, you, you learn as... And I've, I've, I've been in that place before when you first start coming.
Mm-hmm. But as others have joined, they learn, oh, there's safety here. Right. Right. And when you feel safe, you start telling more of the truth. Mm-hmm. That facade, you can drop that facade. Because a lot of people, I mean, you know, me and my sister, there was a lot of things. You know, we were raised in the Pentecostal Church, and so there were things we were taught to say without being told to say.
Mm-hmm. Such as when someone says, "How you doing?" "I'm blessed of the Lord."
Mike Glenn: That's right.
BeBe Winans: I'm highly favored. Mm-hmm. And so one day we were on the road, and we were gonna do our interview. And somebody just stopped and said, "Hi, BB and CeCe. Hi, CeCe. How are you?" And CeCe said, "Oh, I'm blessed of the Lord." And I remember [00:17:00] turning around to her and said, "Can you just say, 'I'm fine'?"
Yeah. Then the next person you meet, I want you to say- There you go. There it is ... "Oh, I'm doing good." You know? But you, you realize- These are brothers that's going through maybe the same thing I'm going through or something that I went through. Right. And that's the advantage of being old, like- Right,
Thomas West: right
BeBe Winans: us. You can look at them and say, "Oh, you're gonna be just fine." You're gonna be fine.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
BeBe Winans: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: I tell people all the time, wisdom means I screwed up before you did. Yeah. That's all it means.
BeBe Winans: Remember when I shared the story about my father- Yeah ... when he was at church and this woman came up to him.
She was crying. She didn't know what she's gonna do because the electricity went out. And my father said, "Oh, girl, you're gonna be fine. Just put your hands out and walk slow."[00:18:00]
Don't worry about the darkness. Yeah. Just walk slow and put your- Put your hands out and walk slow ... but, but, but you, you, you are relieved because the enemy says you're alone. Mm-hmm. And nobody's gonna understand, so don't tell nobody- Right ... what you're going through. Mm-hmm. But he's a liar. Yeah. And so these group of people now have become a sounding board and have been, um, just people I know I can say what I need to say.
Mm-hmm. That's freedom there. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Now these guys have become really close. You took a bunch of them to the Apollo Theater.
BeBe Winans: Yes. Um, and we all went to dinner. Yeah. But, um, since I have been with the group... How long now, Alex? I don't, I don't- Man ... that's what I was trying to figure out the other day. It's like- I don't
Mike Glenn: know.
It's been- ... time
BeBe Winans: has passed- Yeah ... so well. So, so long. Um, it's been at least six years, [00:19:00] maybe more. Hmm. It really has. Um, but, uh, since I joined the group, as I told you and, and them, I thought I, you know, okay, God, what's next? Mm-hmm. Don't have to sing no more. Mm-hmm. And, uh, then things, something happened.
Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, I thought we had a deal, but- That's right. Yeah ... the Lord said, "I didn't give you that." "I didn't tell you that." And so since I've joined the group, there's been so many reluctant yes out of me to go. Mm-hmm. And so one of those was the Apollo Theater. I hadn't sang a concert, especially at Apollo Theater, for 15 years.
Mm-hmm. And so told the guys, and everybody came. And they, they were all sitting in the balcony, and I acknowledged my brothers. I said, "All my... All the white people in the balcony stand up." [00:20:00] And they stood up. I was cranking up. And give them applause. Yeah. But, um, it's been a great time and a serious time.
Right. Yeah, some of our, some of our friends have had to go through some
Mike Glenn: tough times
BeBe Winans: Yes. Yes. And it's, it's just rewarding to, you know, 'cause you get texts sometimes afterwards of how what you said is helping me to go through what- Right ... I'm going through, you know. And that's important, you know, 'cause now what we have to do since you have all this, is when, you know, one of us is not present-
Thomas West: Mm-hmm
BeBe Winans: we can see each other too. And I can call in and y'all can see me running, working out, and doing all that, that I-
Mike Glenn: Yeah. You, you guys don't know this, but the group met yesterday. Yes. And, uh, and so BB is in Dallas. He calls in while [00:21:00] he is jogging.
BeBe Winans: In mile
Mike Glenn: five. In mile five. And- Yes ... and participates in the group while he completes his workout.
But I, but I do think that that says something about how tight that group has become. Oh, yeah ... that you don't, you don't miss it.
BeBe Winans: And how important it is. And, uh- And so what, what, what I learned in life, if it's important to you, then you will guard it. Right. If it's important to you, um, you will be present.
Mm-hmm. You know? And so I think at one, one point in time, I think, you correct me if I'm wrong, I told some of the members, "Look, we got all these vacations and stuff. Y'all gotta- ... you know, come together. You going on a golf- Yeah ... thing." Right. Yeah. You know, let's, let's make this important. And everyone has really, really stepped up to the plate of this
Thomas West: is [00:22:00] important to us.
Yeah. Uh, it's absolutely provocative what the Lord is doing right now. It's 51% foreign-born immigrant. Walking down the sidewalk, you got better odds of meeting someone who was not born in the United Kingdom than, uh, was born somewhere in town. Wow. And it's incredibly global, incredibly, uh, diverse. Um, God's doing something really special there.
You know, around the time we got in there, um, some statistics had the, the churching of London around less than 2%, which is statistically unreached according to some mission agencies. Others put the number as high as 6%. And then even here in recent months, we've been seeing some delightful research coming out, talking about how, um, the, the reawakening or the- Right
re-enchanting, the re-evangelization of, uh, Great Britain. And so really, really great to see.
Mike Glenn: So how did you start your church in London?
Thomas West: We went with a bit, very much a pioneer approach, by the grace of God, reached out to some different, uh, missions agencies- Mm-hmm ... and tried to go here and tried to go there.
And basically what we found out is [00:23:00] if you want to, uh, if you wanna go across, uh, to London, um, to, to raise your own support, pioneer, network, and plant churches and catalyze stuff- gotta pioneer, you gotta forge a path. So we did. We found these, uh, wonderful brothers at a place called Co-Mission Network based in Wimbledon.
Uh, they sponsored my visa, and we got in, and the thinking was like, "How in the world are we gonna do this?" Mm-hmm. Um, the accent, the American accent from the South doesn't play well in affluent London. And, um, we sought out some coaching from some different people. The best we could work it out, we were gonna have to really make our play at the school gate.
So, um, you know, think about this. There's, there's no traffic. I know we were a little late getting, even getting here for the podcast. Right, yeah. No traffic over there. Uh, no drive time. Uh, you literally, uh, you live, you work, you play all off of one main street or high street, and the one central school where everybody, uh, got together, uh, you walk there from your house- Right
every morning. You [00:24:00] walk to the school gate, and after drop-off, you know, moms and dads kinda standing around. You get to know people around the gate and go to a coffee and have an afternoon play date, and the things just kinda catalyzed from there. So it's gonna be relationships. Yeah. And it's gonna be through the kids' school.
Mm-hmm. Uh, we also got really involved in the school PTA, and, um, a bit of a weird figure. When people started figuring out, wait, we got a Baptist, uh, evangelical preacher from Alabama trying to evangelize- ... this well-to-do, affluent, middle-class neighborhood in London. Had one guy actually take me out one night, and his, uh, his whole agenda was to convince me that I made a massive mistake.
And I was like, "Don't worry, I doubt that all the time myself." That's right, yeah. It's like... And, uh- Take
Mike Glenn: a number, take a seat. Yeah,
Thomas West: yeah, yeah. Um, and we got involved, uh, through the school gate, and God did what he does, man, just relationships, putting yourself out there. But- Mm-hmm ... you know, one of the things, and we'll come onto this in a minute, um, man, over there, over there in the, in the UK, kind, call, call it like Western [00:25:00] Europe, there's no sense of build it and they will come.
Right. There's not a hint of, "Well, we're this-" Right ... "and we'll just, we'll just let them know the door is unlocked." No, man, you go out there and, uh, the church is built person by person, conversation by conversation, contending in the pubs and the coffee shops. That's, that's where the missions won.
Mike Glenn: Right. So it's almost the, the kind of evangelism that we read about in Paul- Mm
where he went to the, the city and found the synagogue or-
Thomas West: Or
Mike Glenn: started making tents, and then the conversation started there, and then-
Thomas West: That's right. That's right ...
Mike Glenn: then next we're in somebody's house, and then from there we go- Yeah ... yeah.
Thomas West: And, you know, um, contextualizing this a little bit to, like, the greater Nashville area, but, and we can do, we can do more than that, was it's really an issue of the church in the American South, uh, largely, um, yeah, secularism, cultural narratives, this and that.
Largely, uh, our dominant mode is Acts chapter 13. It's Paul in the synagogue. Right. It's, "Well, hey, you know [00:26:00] a few Bible stories. Let me, let me reference the Old Testament a few times, get you into a place of Jesus. Man, fill up the altar." Right. That's a lot of American Christianity in the South is Acts 13.
Mm-hmm. Not everywhere in America. When you go out West Coast, we got a whole different ballgame. Mm-hmm. And my experience leaving the American South, going into a place like London, I realized, man, we have moved outside of Acts 13. We are doing Acts 17 ministry now. Mm-hmm. We are in the Areopagus. We're in the marketplace.
Uh, we're contending in a different way. We have to spend a long time, uh, talking about the reasonableness for God, the plausibility of God, the possibility of God, trying to- Building
Mike Glenn: the philosophical case- Come on ... before you build the theological
Thomas West: case. That's it. That's it. And that takes time. Mm-hmm. Um, there's no one and done with that.
There's no, "Oh, my goodness, thank you for that 15-minute conversation. The whole thing makes sense." There's a lot of... We developed a, a phrase over there. Um, you wanna... I- in every conversation, what you're really trying to do, you're just trying to drop a pebble in somebody's shoe. And, you know, they [00:27:00] walk off acting like everything's fine, but you've had the smallest rock in your shoe.
Yeah. It affects your whole, your whole, your whole walk. Right. And that's what you're trying to do in these kinds of conversations. Every day, every interaction, I'm just trying to give you another something. I'm trying to paint the picture. Mm-hmm. I'm trying to weave the tapestry a little more day by day.
And you're trying to gently bring people along. And, and, and part of our experience, uh, the fruit that we saw came two to three years into diligent, tilling away conversations where the questions would start to really b- formulate. And, uh, saw a few people actually trusting Christ, and it was absolutely amazing.
I feel like I've lived the Book of Acts. But that Acts 17 model is, "Now, here's the possibility of God. Here's why this would make sense." It's cultural apologetics. And, um, then years in, "Hey, here's Jesus." Right. "You should trust in him." Now, it's not to say we're not calling people to faith. No, like, that call is scattered all throughout.
Right. But just knowing I'm going to genuinely and earnestly give this call, [00:28:00] um, but it'll probably take two years of this, three years of this before faith makes sense- Mm-hmm ... as it were.
Mike Glenn: See, like you, I was... I grew up in the church with the four spiritual laws.
Thomas West: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Glenn: And that I, the, the evangelism that we were taught-
Thomas West: Romans Road
Mike Glenn: Romans Road and all that is you go, you make this presentation. The presentation's maybe 10 minutes long.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: And then somebody will decide.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And you'll make a decision-
Thomas West: Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: uh, after that. Uh, when I s- started the young adult ministry that we called Kairos, uh- A fantastic work, man ... I was having to go back and tell people, "Listen, these kids take a year-
Thomas West: Mm-hmm
or
Mike Glenn: two to make a de- They'll come back and ask you a question-
Thomas West: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: and you'll debate them or talk with them. They'll disappear. This is how it works. And, uh, you won't hear from them for months. Yeah. Then they'll drop back in and go, "I was thinking about what you said." You're like, "Joker, I didn't know if you were still in town."
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. I have no idea what we said. Yeah. So if you catch me- Remind me of this ... to, to where we were. [00:29:00] Yeah. Uh, about how long now evangelism takes- Mm-hmm ... uh, because of, of the culture that people are growing up in.
Thomas West: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's not part of the, uh... And, and, and, and, and there is no disparaging of the American South or the church- No, no, no
in the American South. This is a beautiful thing the Lord's given us, like all of this access- Mm-hmm ... all of this mental furniture that people have. Mm-hmm. But it's just embracing. You know, there's a lot of other places in North America, and you wanna leave, you wanna leave and go somewhere and say, "Man, it is..."
It's not even that, uh, people are mad at God. Oh, that'd be such a delight to find somebody who ha- was frustrated with God. Just never think about him at all. Never think about him. Keller would say it, right? The, you know, the opposite of love isn't wrath. No. Are you kidding me? No, the opposite of love is that cool, passive indifference.
Mike Glenn: Apathy. Yeah. Just don't even, you don't even come up on my radar.
Thomas West: So I, I'd introduce myself to people, and they're like, "Oh, this is amazing." I'm like, "What, what's amazing?" It's like, "I've never met a Christian minister before." [00:30:00] Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So you spend, what, 10 years?
Thomas West: I just shot five years. Five, five years?
Yeah, I feel like I lived 15 having to go through COVID. Oh. Grayed me up a little bit. You aged COVID a little bit. Yeah, so.
Mike Glenn: Come back- Yeah ...
Thomas West: to
Mike Glenn: Nashville. Yeah. What parts do you recognize? What part do you not recognize?
Thomas West: Yeah. It's amazing. You see it through my perspective. You see it through the perspective of my children.
You know, went over there, uh, my son Shepherd, nine years old. I mean, went over there as a, a three-year-old- Yeah ... and just enculturated, part of this, like, international syndicate of mates from around the world. He's the only one with an American accent. Um, you know, it's interesting seeing it from their eyes, and it's, like, a bit coming home, you know, for us.
Mm-hmm. Um, we just shot five years. I mean, what do you say? It's like, that's enough time to be away to genuinely, like, blur your accent enough. Well, we think he's British. It's n- Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's right. He just think, yeah. We think he's British. Yeah, yeah. Um, a little blonde kid with, you know, the flowing locks.
I mean, the- Yeah ... the, the, the grandparents in Birmingham have no shot. It's [00:31:00] like we're going to Target, and I'll have whatever I want. Um, I tell you what, coming back in, hmm. You notice, uh, you notice how, um, the diversity hasn't made its way all the way in, and part of that is just how we're, how we're set up.
Um, you don't have, we don't have near the cultural diversity of a place like London or the UK. Mm-hmm. But you do see these micro expressions of it where maybe our churches, uh, we're not as fully as integrated as we might be capable of being. So that's something, that's something you notice, uh, awful- awfully homogenous- Mm-hmm
in a lot of places. Um, you, you realize, it's like, oh, I'm sorry, I thought, I thought it was gonna take an Acts 17 level expression, but a lot of the modus operandi is a little more back towards Acts 13. It's like, wait, hold on, let's rewind that. Yeah. But even there, you see how flimsy the foundation of Acts 13 might be if you really wanna go there, because, like, how well do you know the Old Testament?
Right. Like, do, do you know- Right ... this story? And I might, we might need to go become a little more [00:32:00] foundational than we thought. Yeah. He can't see where the ball lands.
Mike Glenn: Right. So he holds his, his, his, his finish- Yeah ... and looks at his son. Yeah. And his son would go, "Yeah, you're good." Yeah.
Jeff Allen: I know. And that was 'cause he couldn't see.
I was told that. Yeah. That he, he wouldn't wear glasses. Yeah. And he, he- Yeah ... didn't see a shot over 150 yards land- Mm ... the last decade.
Thomas West: Mm-mm.
Jeff Allen: Yeah. Sure
Mike Glenn: didn't. Now, you tell, you tell a great story, uh, about, uh, your conversion process. Yeah. And of your friend encouraging you to check it out, because somebody who would, who would make a decision, uh, uh, without reading the material- No.
Right ... is a moron.
Jeff Allen: Right. Yeah. This is a great story. Yeah. We were on a golf course, and, uh, I was reading Ayn Rand now, you know? I, trying to figure out how to hold my marriage together, and we were broke financially, or spiritually, I mean, everything. Um, uh, I, I, I like to say that everything I thought would make a [00:33:00] good, productive life was being stripped away.
I was losing my career. I was lo- you know, my wife was involved with another man. We had all this stuff going on. So I figured it out, okay, you know, I didn't care... You know, i- initially, w- we would argue because we were losing everything, and then she would look at me, and, and I always tell, especially when I work churches, if you're in a marriage that's full of acrimony, wait till you get to apathy.
You know? There's nothing more painful in life- And I see it all the time- Mm ... at the airports. Mm. These young men, you see them- Yeah ... with their devices, and you go- Right ... and it's toxic to me because I lived that way for years. Right. Where what does it matter? Who cares? If I get a sitcom or I get a movie, I get a...
what difference, you know, anyway. Mm-hmm. Um, so I get put up with this millionaire businessman, and we're golfing, and I'm reading Ayn Rand, and I think, "Okay, capitalism is it. I got... If I can make enough money, I can g- get out of all this debt. I can, you know... Maybe that's where happiness is." Mm-hmm. You know? I didn't think it was.
I really didn't. Uh, because I [00:34:00] started comedy with the goal of making 300 bucks a week. You know? And it got there pretty quick. Yeah. And realized it was 500. Mm. No, it's 500. Mm-hmm. No, it's 700, it's 900, it's 1,000, it's 2,000. Well, there came a point where I realized no matter what I did, I'd put it up my nose or I'd, you know, drink it.
You know? I mean, so, uh, money wasn't the driving force in my, in my comedy career. Then it became, that's the only skill I have, and it got to where I resented, um, the audiences. I remember sitting on a stool. I wrote, I wrote a book and I, and this is in the book. I was sitting on a s- on a stool doing comedy.
I had gotten to the point where I couldn't even stand up. And, uh, I was in a hockey rink. They had turned everything into a comedy club back in the '80s. Right, yeah. So anyway, I'm s- sitting on a stool, 1984 or 5, uh, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and packed, 500 people. And, uh, uh, I couldn't say anything. I'm just sitting there.
Late show, packed house, and I said, "Why [00:35:00] are we here? And what's the point to all this?" I mean, you could hear a pin drop. And some squeaky voice in the back, some woman goes, "We just wanna hear some jokes." And I, broke me out of it. Yeah. And I said, "You know, that's a reasonable request." "This is a comedy club."
And I have, I do have them. Yeah. I do have some stuff there. Yeah. And I ended up doing the show, and that's when the booker called my agent and said, "He's gone. He's shot, man. There's, there's... He's, he's not long for this world." Um- Mm ... uh, and it was just, I couldn't understand the reason or the point to doing anything, you know?
Mm-hmm. Um, I'd become a nihilist. I didn't even know that there was a name for it until I, I heard about it. I was a believer for two or three years, then I heard Ravi Zacharias mention nihilism. Mm-hmm. And when he explained what it was, I went, "That's it!" That's right. That was me! That's right. I was a ni- there's a name for it.
There, there's a name for it. You know? I just thought I was an A-hole. Well, that can still be true. That's true. I mean, they're not [00:36:00] mutually exclusive. Right, exactly. Yeah. So anyway, um, we're out on the golf course, uh, a- after I just told you brevity is the... You know? So, but, uh- He starts talking ab- I said, "How do you accumulate wealth?"
I think that was what I asked him. I, obviously he could do that. And I said, "How do you learn to do that?" Uh, and he said, "Look, man, you don't want, you don't want a lot of money." I go, "I don't?" He goes, "You can't handle what little you have, just in the short time I've known you." Uh, a lot of money would be a burden.
Mm-hmm. Um, and it would... A lot of people do bad things after they lose a lot of wealth. Mm-hmm. So I, I, I wouldn't recommend you getting a lot till you learn that there's tools and things. And he, and one of the things he said was something along, "You can't even begin to enjoy the creation till you have a relationship with the one who created it."
And I thought that sounded new agey. Mm-hmm, right. I read a lot of new age. And I thought, "Well, you know, where'd you read it?" He said, "It's in the Bible." And said a couple more things and, and I go, "Where's that?" And he goes, "It's in the Bible." I was a voracious reader at that point, and I read everything I could get my hands on.
And I s- finally said to him, "Stop it with the Bible." He goes, "What do you [00:37:00] mean?" I go, "I'm an ath- I don't believe in God." I mean, and really, God's word- Mm-hmm ... I mean, kind of archaic at this point in our, you know, life. I said, "Who reads the Bible?" He says, "Well, I actually do every day." I go, "Come on." You know, and I, and again, I, I respected the guy because of his wealth- Right
and, and everything, and, and his kindness. He was really a nice guy. And he says, "All right, well, let me back up." He goes, "What's in the Bible you don't think is true?" And I go, "Well, I've never really read the Bible." And he goes, "Then you're not an atheist, you're a moron." And that's, that was the beginning of a lifelong friendship.
Yeah, true. And I, it was like I wanted to punch him, but I would've felt I lost, I would've lost access to- That's right. ... to, to Augusta National and all these other perks that I thought knowing- Yeah ... this guy would bring me. And, uh, basically by the end of the week, we, we got to talking about stuff and he, he said, "Look, it's the most influential book in the entire world, and you can't even crack it open."
Mm-hmm. "That's, that's intellectually lazy and moronic. At least study it."
Thomas West: Mm-hmm. A
Jeff Allen: bunch of people have studied it- That's right ... and have come to the [00:38:00] conclusion that it's a nice book- Yeah ... it's, there's some good things in it. Mm-hmm. But it's not inspired by God. Mm-hmm. You can't even do that, so at least do that.
And that's when he signed me up for the Bible tapes. He goes, "Uh, Tommy Nelson out of Denton Bible teaches the Bible the way," he goes, "I think you would enjoy it. He doesn't condescend, he doesn't talk down." So if you're asking me what I enjoy, I like pastors who don't look for the easy out- Mm-hmm ... you know, and, and, and hit the hard things, you know, at occasionally.
Right. And I don't mind my pastor ca- occasionally calling men out for porn or whatever, you know? You know, this is what God expects of you, husbands.
Thomas West: Mm-hmm.
Jeff Allen: You know? I don't mind that at all. Now, a lot of people I've talked to don't like it. Mm-hmm. They want to go to the, the... And I don't know why Joel Osteen seems to be the, the model for this.
That's right. Yeah. But it is, you know. And it's funny, we just interviewed Ben Fuller on our, on our podcast, um, the singer, and I saw him at, um, in, in my research, I saw him [00:39:00] do a, a show at San Quentin, and I said, um, "Joel Osteen wouldn't have went over too well in San Quentin." You know. Right. You needed a tatted up- Yeah
um, ex-drug addict, alcoholic. You know, God uses us all in a place that we need to be. Mm-hmm. So, um, everybody has their, uh... what feeds them. But I was told, Tommy Nelson said this, and from day one I believed this, and I, I li- I've lived for 27 years, it's Jesus and nothing else. Mm-hmm. And if anybody says it's Jesus but you gotta do these things- Right
then I don't, I don't... I just can tune it out. Yeah. I mean, Alcoholics Anonymous taught me that. Take what you need, leave the rest, and don't get involved in the personalities. Yeah. And I think s- too many church people get involved in the personalities and the things that they don't like. Right. I don't, uh, uh...
And initially, when we started going to church here, uh, we were brand new [00:40:00] believers. To give you an idea of where we were, you know, when Paul talks about milk as a baby- Right ... um, we went to a Methodist Church, brand new believers, and this guy would clip out a Peanuts cartoon and do a moral message based on Charlie Brown.
And we felt that was great. That was great. You know? And didn't take long- Yeah ... before, you know, there has to be something a little deeper than, than Charlie, you know. And we started seeking churches. And we had a condition. If the pastor mentioned hell, we were out. Mm-hmm. Because we, we were convinced we were going there.
Mm-hmm. Even though we had given our life to Jesus, we were still at the point where, you know, we have, we had baggage. That's right, yeah. So we didn't want to hear about hell. We had rules, you know. So again, um, today, uh, I just want biblically sound teaching, and, um, and I don't mind a c- a cultural... I don't mind the church talking about cultural issues, uh, if they're [00:41:00] soundly rooted in- Out of- Out of scripture
out of scripture.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Jeff Allen: So vote your, vote your Bible- Right ... is fine with me. Right. You know? I, I, I understand that. Uh, because I've had Christians, um, hammer me on social media because I was at the RNC. I was invited there- Mm-hmm ... because Rob Schneider canceled. Mm-hmm. And they reached out and called me to do a show at the RNC.
And I'm a registered independent. I've never, uh, gone out of my way to- Yeah ... support any party. I don't, I don't believe in the collective, so why would I... You know, I'm kind of an ind- you know. Right. Tell me what you, what you got. So anyway, they were hammering me all over. My family, you know, um, hammering me, you know.
I finally said to them, I go, uh, "Well, give me an alternative." Are, are you aware that one party had an abortion van in front of their convention?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. And Nashville had a TED, uh, uh, [00:42:00] conference, and we got the, we got one of the coaches to come over and spend some time with us. She was brutal.
Matt Pearson: She was. She was brutal to us.
She was. Um, and gave us a book and said, "Read this, you need it." Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And she's
Matt Pearson: right. Yeah. She's right. And her, her big
Mike Glenn: thing was people are gonna walk out with one thing. Mm-hmm. And you get to choose what they walk out with- Mm-hmm ... so make sure they're walking out with- Mm-hmm. Yeah ... what you
Matt Pearson: wanted
Mike Glenn: them to
Matt Pearson: walk out with.
Yeah. A- and I mean, think about it, I would much rather them have one thing week after week after week- Right ... than me dump 10 things in their lap, and them, them have tons of information written down in a notebook somewhere. Right. But nothing in here. But nothing here, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And, and, you know, y- you can build on this.
We're gon- you, you gonna preach more than one Sunday. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you can, you can build on these truths- Right. Right ... uh, to, to make them a good, a good foundation. Mm-hmm. So, so let's, let's break down the sermon, uh, for a little bit. Mm-hmm. What have you learned about
Matt Pearson: introductions? I've learned that it's
I don't always have to do this now that I've been here 10 years. Congregation knows me. But by and [00:43:00] large, I try to do this at least 80 to 90% of the time. I feel like I have to buy the right to take them to the next level. Meaning, if they don't ... if, if it's not early in the sermon- Mm-hmm ... me saying, "This is why this matters to you"- Mm-hmm
they're done. Mm-hmm. Um, so sometimes that means, uh, uh, I, I, I always start by reading the text, praying, and then getting right into it. A lot of times that starts off with, um, the current event. Mm-hmm. Um, a personal illustration. I, I ... If I don't hook them at the beginning- Mm-hmm ... they're done. Yeah. Um, they're not gonna
They're gonna check their phone. They're gonna pull it out and say, "Okay, what do I have this week?" Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Um- There are some studies that show that we have 90 seconds to establish a point of concern. Mm. And if you don't do it in those first 90 seconds- Mm ... they grab their phone. Yeah, yeah. This doesn't have a thing to do
Matt Pearson: [00:44:00] with me.
Yeah, yeah. Now, I've, I've noticed that when I preach passages such as David and Bathsheba- Right ... I don't have to start with a story- Mm-hmm ... or start with a grabbing illustration, because they're, they're like- Because it's, they're stories ... they're like, "Oh, this is about adultery- ... and murder and cheating and lying," and so they're, they're there.
Yeah. Doesn't mean I don't have to. Right. I mean, I don't, um, uh ... It's, it's, it's okay if you do, but I learned my people are already there on stories like that. Right. Uh, but this Sunday it's Romans chapter six, and I'm gonna read the text and pray, and they're probably gonna be like- And so, so I better be ready to grab them- Yeah.
Right, right ... from the start. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And tell them, and tell them why it matters. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Call to action. Mm-hmm. Conclusion.
Matt Pearson: Mm-hmm. It really depends on the text and what I'm, what I'm seeing happen in the text. Mm-hmm. Um, there, there have been ... Right now I'm preaching through u- uh, the doctrine of union with Christ.
It's the Things Your Pastor Wants You to Know series. Mm-hmm. Brentwood campuses, every year the, uh, the different campus pastors get to [00:45:00] get four or five weeks to choose what they want to preach to their congregation. Um, and so a l- these have been ... This'll be my third week in that, and they've been more of a, "Okay, this is real.
Christ is in you." Mm-hmm. And one of the ways we've seen the Apostle Paul try to get it into his people is he prayed. Mm-hmm. And so here are some prayers. I want you to ... Ephesians 3:17-19, pray this for you. Mm-hmm. Pray this for our congregation. Last week was, uh, abide in the vine. Right. Um, where are you abiding mostly?
And where are some small tweaks you can make in your life to where you're actually abiding in Christ? Mm-hmm. Little things like that. So it depends on where, on, on where I'm going.
Thomas West: Yeah.
Matt Pearson: Um, I try not to give them ... I, I don't wanna be one of those people, one of those pastors, and I may be wrong for this, but I, I don't wanna be one of those pastors that's constantly giving them more and more stuff to do- Mm-hmm
just to be busy. But if it, if it, if it's something more and more r- that helps nurture their soul, [00:46:00] I guess that goes without saying. But, uh, maybe you know what I mean by that. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Thanks for tuning into the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
