God Found Me in a Jail Cell, with Jay Cleveland
In this episode of the Engage Church Network Podcast, Pastor Mike Glenn sits down with ministry veteran Jim Wideman to talk about the heart of mentorship, generational leadership, and what it really means to pour into others. From his early years in children’s ministry to decades of coaching pastors and church teams, Jim shares wisdom on raising up the next generation of leaders - reminding us that “every Paul needs a Timothy, and every Timothy needs a Paul.”
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Jay Cleveland: I tell people I found God in a jail cell, I found Jesus Christ at a homeless shelter, and I found the Holy Spirit on my couch after a few beers. Um
Mike Glenn: Joining us on today's podcast is Jay Cleveland. Uh, Jay is a, uh, local businessman, entrepreneur here in the Nashville area. But m- for the purpose of this, uh, podcast, he is a student at the Engage Church Network School of Ministry. As you know, as we have walked through this process of kinda figuring out what the Engage Church Network was going to be about, what we have found is There [00:01:00] is a wide-open area of training of laypeople into positions of leadership in the local church, and that's why we started the School of Ministry.
And we actually started, uh, this past fall. Uh, Jay is one of our students. And so we thought it might be fun for just a few minutes for the two of us to sit down and help you understand what's going on in the School of Ministry and, uh, and how it may work for you or somebody you know. So Jay, welcome.
Thank you. Glad, uh, glad you're here. Thanks for being here. I'm happy to be here. Always a pleasure. So, uh, give our folks, uh, the, the, the Jay Cleveland story- ... and how you ended up here. Now, we don't have- Yeah. How much time you got? Yeah ... you know, 25 words or less kinda thing, yeah.
Jay Cleveland: Uh, the Jay story is a kid from Birmingham, Alabama.
Uh, I'm 36 now. I've got, uh, three kiddos: nine-year-old boy, six-year-old girl, and a two-year-old girl. Been married for going on 12 years. Uh, we live in Nashville. Uh, we love it here. We attend a, uh, [00:02:00] an old-timey Baptist church, uh, Franklin Pike, here in Nashville. Uh, but, uh, life didn't look so normal my whole, uh, uh...
I had a criminal career before I was a entrepreneurial career. Um, I've had the ups and downs of, uh, brokenness and alcohol and jail time and gangs and drugs and facing life sentences. I've d- I've been through the works in that regard- Mm-hmm ... and I've put other people through the works. Uh, but here I sit, uh, with you and, uh, the School of Ministry, and it's a chapter change.
Mm-hmm. And, um- I'm, I have no idea what God has next. Well, do we
Mike Glenn: ever? No. A- as far as that goes. But listen, uh, just, just for the sake of, of our friends who, who do not know your story, I mean, we're talking about some serious jail time.
Jay Cleveland: Life
Mike Glenn: ending. Yeah. Yeah.
Jay Cleveland: Yeah, that's the case. Uh, I, I mean,
Mike Glenn: this, this wasn't a DUI or a- I wish.
Yeah, the guys that
Jay Cleveland: got the DUIs I felt got off easy. Um, no. [00:03:00] You know, I came from, uh, uh, a pretty normal background where I'm from. Mm-hmm. In Talladega, Alabama, and that was a lot of divorce. Mm-hmm. That was a lot of dads that were gone, alcohol, uh, running through families, things of that nature. Mm-hmm. Uh, people doing parents-wise, the best they knew how.
Mm-hmm. Um, but the best you know how sometimes leads to a lot of destruction, and that's what I, um, I faced growing up. Uh, when you talk to guys or anybody from a broken family, you start to see that trend of, uh, destruction somewhere in that story. Mine started, uh, when I was around, uh, eight, nine years old.
Uh, we- they called us latchkey kids. Mm-hmm. We- the door was always open. We were in and out. There were no rules. There was no discipline. There was no nothing. Um, and the world was a playground to us. And, you know, you go from the skateboard kid who's just the local punk getting into trouble and getting kicked out of schools and fights- Mm-hmm
and stuff like that to a much more [00:04:00] severe and, um, destruction-filled life with gangs and things of that nature. Now, usually when I say this, people think, you know, like, "Gangs? In Tallad- Alabama?" Yeah, yeah. You know? Right. Well, the fact is, is gangs are everywhere. Um, we live in a different age. This isn't the '80s, where your metropolitan areas carried the m- the majority of, um, lifestyles like that.
Mm-hmm. Gangs are everywhere. I- I've yet to go to a place, no matter how rural, without gangs. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I was introduced to them- Where two or three are gathered together- ... there's a gang. Well, look, to that point, gangs have their own discipleship method. Right. And when they find kids, boys especially, who have no fathers, who are longing for a community, who are longing for fellowship, who are longing for investment- Mm-hmm
they're all too ready to pick you up, and I hit all those categories on the head. Mm-hmm. And so when you have me, um, at 11, 12, 13 years old, uh, getting kicked out of schools, meeting all the wrong people, some of those older guys took notice of that, [00:05:00] and they took me under their wing, so to say. Talladega, like a lot of rural counties, um, has a lot of meth and crystal- Mm-hmm
um, cocaine. That's not
Mike Glenn: too far away from the famous Meth Mountain-
Jay Cleveland: That's fair ... in, uh, in Alabama. Yeah, that's true. Mm-hmm. Uh, so that started the entrepreneurial journey. You know, you got a kid that's willing to knock on doors in the trailer park and, and sell something. Mm-hmm. Uh, that kinda introduced me to a life of creating something out of nothing.
Uh, getting a little baggie with white stuff in it that I had no idea what to do with- Mm-hmm ... and turning that into money somehow ignited something in me. Mm-hmm. And when you match that with guns and girls and robbery and theft and drive-by shootings, it almost starts coming alive as a movie.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Jay Cleveland: For a bored kid that's not involved in sports, no one in the world was interrupting my life of sin.
No one in the world was interrupting and taking me and shaking me. Yeah, yeah. And it starts to feel like maybe I can be a part of something bigger than, than [00:06:00] I'm seeing in what I am, and this boring life that I'm living can be turned into something great, kinda like the movies. Right. And, uh, it didn't take long, um, through getting kicked out of five, six schools, meeting more and more of those kids, that I started really ha- figuring out that I had a knack for, uh, discipleship in the wrong way.
That is, collecting all the brokenness in those schools, all those broken kids without fathers, and giving them a purpose. Mm-hmm. And that purpose was gang-related. Giving them a plan, usually to sell drugs or commit a robbery or et cetera, and creating a kind of network of broken kids, uh, that all collected weekly.
Mm-hmm. Sounds a lot like a church, doesn't it? It would, yeah.
Mike Glenn: Evan- evangelism, church, and all that. All that stuff. Same, same thing,
Jay Cleveland: just- I think our enemy is, uh, knows the tactics of discipleship in the wrong way- Mm-hmm ... uh, sometimes more than we do. Um, but what it turned into was, uh, grand theft autos gone wrong, where people were shot in that process, and it turned into, uh, uh, inner city, [00:07:00] uh, drive-by wars back and forth, uh, where multiple people were hurt.
And that landed me in the adult, uh, jail at 16, facing, uh, three counts of attempted murder, two counts of discharging firearms in occupied dwellings, and, uh, I think, uh, one account of, uh, discharging a firearm in occupied vehicle. Uh, which carried with it some major, major, major, uh, years if I were to go through that and be convicted of all those.
But that was interrupted. Uh, God tends to find us, and he tends to interrupt. And that's what he did in my life. Mm-hmm. He found me in a jail, uh, going on two years, waiting, uh, through court dates and waving through all the process of the judicial system. Um, and he found me in a cell, uh, broken down, uh, nowhere to turn, where I prayed my first prayer, and that was just for God to intervene in my soul.
I didn't ask him to interrupt my life and take me, you know, out of prison- Mm-hmm ... save me, all that stuff. It [00:08:00] was just, "Lord, if I do have a soul, I'd much rather you be in charge of that, 'cause I feel like I'm gonna be dying pretty soon."
Mike Glenn: Right.
Jay Cleveland: I'm a small white kid in an all-Black adult jail, going to prison the rest of my life.
Mm-hmm. I didn't think my, my, um, uh, life was gonna be that long after that.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. So you have, you have the conversion in jail. What happened is that got you on a different track?
Jay Cleveland: Yeah, it's the, the regeneration of it all- Right ... the redemption of it all. I tell people I found God in a jail cell, I found Jesus Christ at a homeless shelter, and I found the Holy Spirit on my couch after a few beers.
Uh Damn. The, the court, um, decided, uh, through, uh, a family friend, his name was Charles Mosley, who intervened in my life. He had a, uh, his own history- Mm-hmm ... in the '70s, trafficking cocaine, I believe it was. He was saved and started a ministry. Um, he got involved in my case, and he and the judge and the attorney [00:09:00] figured that it was best to give me a second chance at life.
Mm-hmm. And they did. I walked in that courtroom expecting the worst. Each one of those charges carried 20 to life. That's a maximum of five consecutive life sentences or a minimum of around 80 years. But when I walked in, they didn't take me in front of the judge like they normally did. They took me to the judge's chambers.
Mm-hmm. And they stacked, slapped a stack of paper on the desk and they said, "Sign this, and you're going to the Nashville Rescue Mission. You'll be there for a year, and if you get in even, uh, an ounce of trouble..." Matter of fact, the DA said, "If you even shake hands with somebody from Alabama, you're gonna go away for a very long time."
That was my second chance. The Nashville Rescue Mission had a, um, a program for young guys- Right. Mm-hmm ... called the Anchor Program at the time- Mm-hmm ... 18 to 25-year-olds, where they truly invested everything they could into turning lives around. Mm-hmm. And it was through cleaning the toilets of the homeless and meeting with counselors and just doing that whole program that I found Jesus Christ for the first time, and I found [00:10:00] stability, I think, for the first time in my life.
And it was a different aroma of Jesus that I was used to. Mm-hmm. I was used to the suits on Sunday mornings- Right ... and the Billy Graham era of evangelism- Right ... and a place that I didn't fit in very well. But when I got there, I saw a Christianity that suffered and, uh, I saw a Christianity, um, that served from the bottom up.
Mm-hmm. And I just never seen that before, and it, it was attractive And it drew me in. So you get out of that, you get married. Yep, I go to college in Murfreesboro, MTSU. F- uh, never thought I could do that. Goodness knows, I got my GED in a jail cell. I'm in college now, I'm wearing polos and khakis. I'm covering up my tattoos, and I'm a normal kid, you know- Yeah
for the first time. I kept on getting in little scuffs and, and fights, but I thought, "You know, at least it's not drive-by shootings." Mm-hmm. I did, I met my wife, and, uh, she was the first one, I think, in my life that sat me down and said, "If you even so much as get in a [00:11:00] fight, I'm gone." And she was pretty enough that I listened.
Mike Glenn: She
Jay Cleveland: had,
Mike Glenn: she had some measure of influence there, right? She had a great
Jay Cleveland: deal. Man- Yeah ... I tell you what, you can get guys to church and things related to scripture with food. Mm-hmm. You might get to en- entertain them with a cigar or two to collect some- Yeah ... but if you get some pretty girls, you can draw them all in.
Yeah, that's,
Mike Glenn: that's usually the secret to a, to a effective youth group- That's it, it is ... is, is, is to have that, so. Amen. So you start working as an entrepreneur.
Jay Cleveland: Yeah, I did. Um, you know, I think with a lot of guys that come from backgrounds I have, it's really, really difficult for us to follow men. Uh- Right
when you don't have that leadership in your background, you tend to be- Mm-hmm ... all, all the s- all the complications. You know, you're just always fighting and bickering and arguing- Mm-hmm ... and thinking you can lead better and learning the hard way. And, um, uh, that produces quite a bit of entrepreneurship- Yeah
if you think about it. So, 'cause you're either gonna work for someone else and get along- That's right, yeah ... or you're gonna have to go figure it out yourself. And so I figured it out [00:12:00] myself to some degree. I started doing the traditional routes of selling T-shirts and, uh, mowing lawns and- Mm ... you know, from college, and then that turned into different things, uh, websites and, um, uh, we started a peanut business in 2019 of all things.
Of course, you'd appreciate that from Alabama. Uh, lots of boiled peanuts down that way in Dothan and- Lot, lot of boiled
Mike Glenn: peanuts ...
Jay Cleveland: and so we started selling peanuts up here. Uh, that ended up, uh, to be around the country, and we went viral a few times with that. That was a wonderful business. Um, we had some ups and downs with that business.
God uses marriage and child-rearing, I think, to refine a lot of people. Sure. Uh, but he can use business just the same- Mm-hmm ... and it'll flatten you out. Um, and you gotta figure out, uh, what your faith is in at the end of those roads- Mm-hmm ... and keep plugging away. But, uh, we're on this side of it, and you know, Mike, frankly, I think many entrepreneurs will tell you, if you don't have the wind under the sails, you start asking God what's the purpose in all of it.
Right. And that's what I, I started doing about a year or two back, [00:13:00] uh, started asking God, "I can keep creating these businesses- Mm-hmm ... and I can keep running these roads, but you saved me from something. What did you save me for?"
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So while all this is going on, how do you begin to experience or understand this sense of calling you have?
Calling. And what you wanted to do- There's that word ... with that.
Jay Cleveland: Mm-hmm. You've asked a few questions I've heard, uh, what keeps you up at night? Mm-hmm. Is one of the questions you asked. That's a good one. Uh, where's the pain in your city? Mm-hmm. Find that. If you're attracted to those things, then you're typically called to.
Mm-hmm. I think for some, I've realized that calling or that concept of calling is, uh, is simple. Maybe it was your dad. Like we were talking earlier- Mm-hmm ... with a pastor who- whose dad was in the ministry. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, he followed suit, and he figured out that's a perfect fit. In some, it's not so easy.
It can be complicated. Lord, what is the purpose of all this? Well, all these desires, skills, pain points, what keeps me up at night, what is it? And I [00:14:00] think, um, calling is something that we can continue to live into. Right. We continue to get more realization of. Mm-hmm. And for me, it was, uh, a fear. That was the biggest red flag, and the fear was that God was wasting my life, or maybe I was wasting my life- Mm-hmm
but God was allowing it. Mm-hmm. And if you fear that you're wasting your life, even if you're doing wonderful things like ministry at your church and raising children, uh, maybe being a generation changer in your family- Mm-hmm ... those are high and noble causes. Yeah. But if you still have this fear in you- Yeah, well, you're the-
and this longing in you- ... you're the
Mike Glenn: cycle breaker in your own family. That's right. Yeah. And that's a big- Yeah, that's huge ... a big deal.
Jay Cleveland: That's a huge deal. But, you know, I kinda relate calling to, you meet young people who really just want more than anything to be married. Mm-hmm. And they just want a spouse, and you know they're gonna get a spouse.
They're gonna get a spouse. It's just a matter of time. Mm-hmm. But they're just on, [00:15:00] every day thinking- Mm-hmm ... I just, please pray that I get a spouse. You know, it's kinda like a dagger when you walk up to those people and you say, "Well, isn't Jesus enough?" You know? Mm-hmm. "Well, yeah, He's enough, but I still want a spouse."
Yeah, that's right. You know? Like, He put that desire in me, I want it. And there's something to that calling too, what you're called to. If you've done all these wonderful things, and you're doing great things like being a cycle breaker- Mm-hmm ... in a generational family, but there's still something nagging at you.
Mm-hmm. You know there's something more, and the only thing I knew to do was to start seeking God in that through prayer. I think I told you I had read a book, an autobiography by, um- Uh, oh, what was his name? German, uh, orphan, uh, George Muller. Yeah, yeah. George Muller. Yeah, yeah. He wrote an article about...
And in that, he, he, uh, encouraged people to number their prayers and not give up on those prayers. Pray powerful lion prayers. Right. Prayers that you know you're gonna get an answer on, it's just a matter of time. So I started praying, I started numbering those prayers, and the prayer was, "Lord, what is the [00:16:00] purpose?
What is my purpose? What is my calling?" Mm-hmm. "Even if it's what I'm already doing, just tell me that's the case, and maybe I can be- Yeah, be it, yeah ... smart and content enough to be, to be able to live it out." Mm-hmm. Um, and so I started praying. By day 73, I think it was, um, we had, uh, just been broken down to nothing financially.
It's a weird thing, because our business was doing better than it ever was, and we went through this weird, strange period where we just got hit- Mm-hmm ... with all these crazy bills coming out of nowhere we had to pay. And what chunk of change we had left, we really felt strongly the Lord was saying to give it up.
Mm-hmm. So us being the entrepreneurial type that we are, we've given up all of our money- Mm-hmm ... quite a few times- ... and the Lord takes care of you just the same. Yeah. You know? Uh, and you figure it out. But in that hole, uh, if you wanna call it that, I think we get real close to the Lord when- Sure ... um, and you're in that depth of prayer, and I [00:17:00] just felt the Lord tell me, "It's through ministry, and I've been trying to tell you this whole time."
Mm-hmm. "It's not starting a tent maker business. It's not starting a discipleship program- Mm-hmm ... through a parallel organization of a parachurch. It's not a nonprofit. It's just through my bride." Mm-hmm. "It's through the local church." Sure. And my only response was- ... "Well, that's the only thing I don't wanna do."
Yeah. Isn't that something? It's amazing how well- Yeah ... we're able to con- confuse ourselves. Yeah. Yeah, with that. Now, your wife was also part of this calling process, right? That's right, yeah. She grew up in a Christian home, very normal Midwestern Indiana life. Mm-hmm. Except her dad, being a successful entrepreneur, started going to Haiti when she was a kid- Right
and taking her, uh, with him. She knew all along she was gonna marry a man that proclaimed the gospel from mountaintops wherever he was. Mm-hmm. He was just a herald of the gospel. And, um, she's been my biggest fan and believed [00:18:00] in me long before I did, and maybe a lot of other people. She's always been there to say, "I know what you're gonna be, and I'm- Fine to wait for it.
And that takes a dedication. Wow. Yeah. It's a decision. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. It's real- it really is. It was a decision long ago. Even as a young girl, she made a decision. The man she was gonna marry, she was willing to wait for him to fulfill his calling. So yeah, she waited, and she's a part of that calling if- Mm-hmm
if she kinda is a lot of that calling, uh, 'cause she fanned that flame and always has. So in all of this now, you find the School of Ministry. You know, it's funny how that works. Not something I was looking for. And, uh, you know, the- people love to talk about Billy Graham 'cause he made use of every resource- Right
including the internet- Mm-hmm ... when it came out, putting all the articles out and everything. The radio too. Mm-hmm. Goodness knows, uh, radio was a big one. We... Engage Church Network is using just about every resource that I've found. Mm-hmm. And when you're up at 3:00 [00:19:00] a.m., as we often are in the witching hour, quote, quote, and you're seeking God on some deep things, every now and then you grab that phone and you're- Mm-hmm
just scrolling 'cause you don't wanna go to bed and you're too- Right, right ... you know, ticked off- Yeah ... to do anything else. And there's ECN, Mr. uh, Mike Glenn, who I had a familiarity with, visiting your church back in the day- Mm-hmm ... in Kairos and all that. And you're interviewing, uh, Joey Langford- Yeah ... who started Cultivate here in town.
Mm-hmm. And I, I'm a fan of both of you, and I just started watching. And you mentioned the School of Ministry. And you know what I did? I got mad. 'Cause this is, like, the fifth reminder in two days that ministry is what the Lord wants- ... me to go into. Wake up the next day, tell my wife, "Do you know Mike Glenn started this Engage Church Network, School of Ministry?
He's got a podcast. It's great." Mm. Oh, she loves Mike Glenn, and she's all over it. She's, she already knew about it. Mm-hmm. She's been praying about it. She's looking into it. She's thought about it. So she brings it up, and, uh, she gets it up on the computer. "Oh, here's the application," and they just started last week.
They're happy to [00:20:00] be here.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Jay Cleveland: I couldn't stand it, and I walked out of the house, I was so angry. 'Cause again, it's just that submission. Mm-hmm. It's just that surrender. You know the Lord's just putting that in front of your face- Yeah ... He's gonna continue to do it, and you can run and live in the desert and the misery again.
Or you can- Or swim
Mike Glenn: around in the belly of a whale for a while. You can do
Jay Cleveland: that. You can do that. The Church doesn't know what they're doing. Yeah. You know? They don't know what they're doing. Yeah. Uh, how right I thought I was. Um, but you know, over the next 24 hours- And a lot of surrender and tears- Mm-hmm
I buckled, and, uh, I applied to your School of Ministry. And, uh, I had a feeling, uh, through some prayer and a, and a weird dream, that I was gonna have to be persistent. And that's exactly what I had to be, because your, uh, assistant emailed me back and said, "Sorry, maybe next spring. You should try to apply again.
We're already closed up for the season." And I said, "No, uh, I really think that I need to start even though y'all have already started." And her next [00:21:00] response was, "Mike, we'll see you Monday." And so it's n- Sometimes those big walls we feel like we gotta get over are just right over the little crumb. Yeah. You know?
But- Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So, how has your experience been with School of Ministry? Talk to us about that.
Jay Cleveland: You're talking to somebody specific, and, uh, I think I represent a lot of the people that I meet, men I meet now. A majority over the past few years, they come into the conversation of following Jesus Christ with a bitterness about church.
Mm-hmm. And that was me for many years. Mm-hmm. There was a bitterness, founded or unfounded, whether you're right or wrong. When I came into the School of Ministry, there was a surrender that I'm wrong. That's usually where surrender starts- Mm-hmm ... right, is there's the, the willingness to be wrong. But there's always an inkling in the back of your mind that you might be right.
Maybe, uh, this is just another instance to be bitter. Maybe I'm- Right ... gonna walk away from this and give 'em all my money- Mm ... and I'm not gonna walk away with anything of [00:22:00] value. Um, and I've been wrong again. Um, I wasn't looking for it to fail, but again, when you've been burned a bunch of times- Right
you're, you've, you're kind of afraid of the heat, you know? And so School of Ministry, um, it's impactful in a way that I, I didn't see coming. And the way I say that is because I found myself tearing up a lot more than I ever have in my life, and I think that's because of a softness of heart. Uh, but it's just seeing how wrong one man can be.
Really. Yeah. You know? I, there's...
Mike Glenn: Trust me, I know.
Jay Cleveland: And, uh, when you, when you meet the gravity of authenticity, and when you meet the reality of people who have truly walked this road, like you said, yourself- Mm-hmm ... and a lot of the people that you're choosing to lead these classes, they've walked a long road.
They've got a lot of experience, and they came out on the other side of [00:23:00] it- Mm-hmm ... not burned, but empowered to do something more. And that blew my mind. I was expecting academics- Mm-hmm ... boring books, lots of, uh, impersonal relationships, and I found the opposite on all that. Mm. It's impactful. So what's, what's been one of the biggest aha moments?
Tell you what, uh, the second cohort class we did- With Chris ... with Chris Brooks- Chris Brooks of the Spiritual Formations. Yeah, I'll line that up perfectly. You got Mike Glenn on the first month, which if, if that doesn't get you, then Chris Brooks will get you on the second one. Yeah. And what he has you do is it's dangerous somewhat.
Mm-hmm. He has you walk through your entire life. Yeah. And he wants you to find out what areas of life the enemy has sown seeds of lies and doubt to get you off course of what your true calling and destiny and purpose in the kingdom would be. Mm-hmm. I don't think anyone ... I mentioned the word interrupt earlier.[00:24:00]
There's not a lot of interrupters who come into your life- Mm-hmm ... and say, "I'm interrupting the course-" That's right. "... that you're on, and I'm gonna tell you the truth." Right. "And I'm gonna be with you while we walk that out." Mm-hmm. That's what that class does. It interrupts you. Wow. And, uh, I don't know of a better description of love than being willing to stop your life to interrupt someone else's to get them where they need to be.
Um- That's pretty profound there. Well, I don't know. You know, I- For an entrepreneur- Yeah. Oh ... and all of that, it's- Yeah. Yeah. I don't know profound, but- That's some good stuff, man ... um, it's, uh, it definitely was the case, and, uh, that class has, you know ... I think everyone in that class said the same thing, uh, "This almost ruined my vacation," one guy said.
And what he means by that, and a lot of the people that were in that class mean, is, uh, this hurt. Yeah. And it required me to stop- Mm-hmm ... and rethink and retrain neurons in my brain- Mm-hmm ... to rewrite the pattern of [00:25:00] life that I've been telling myself it was. It wasn't. Mm-hmm. There were lies all through that, and I have to face the truth now, and now I'm free f- because of it.
That's right. You know? Right. And that's the beauty of it.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, the one thing that, uh, uh, whenever we pray, whenever I pray that God will help me with a problem, I want him to throw me on the other side of the problem, and I wanna look back and say, "That was close." Mm-hmm. I have found he takes us right through the problem, and the reason he does that is so that you don't have to be afraid anymore.
You've dealt with it. You've, you've, you've, you've conquered it. You've, you've made peace with it. Now you're able to move on, and you don't have to be afraid it's gonna sneak up on you later. 'Cause there's no fear in perfect love. It took me a long time to figure that out. Perfect love cast out- Yeah ... all fear.
Right. Right. With that. So, uh, those of us, uh, and, and the reason this is fresh in my mind is I had, uh, lunch with your pastor. Uh, and you, you came up in that conversation, and [00:26:00] A- and both of us are, are confident and that, that the Lord is, is, is going to lead you to pastoring a church, uh, at, at, at, at, at this, at this process.
Uh, so, um, you've gone from, uh, you know, uh, a broken childhood to the entrepreneur role and all this. Now, now you're actually preparing for, for the, the, the, the ministry. So talk to us about how you're wave- weaving, uh, all of the school of ministry stuff, life experience- Mm-hmm ... and all of that, uh, to the pastor that you anticipate being, that, that we see.
Uh, and, and one of the ways you confirm the calling is tho- through those brothers and sisters around you- Mm-hmm ... who know you say, "Yes." Mm-hmm. "We see that for you. Uh, we, we see God working that out in
Jay Cleveland: your life." Yeah, working it out is a process. Uh, [00:27:00] you know, I think there's a romanticism and idealism about the old pastoral role.
Mm-hmm. Maybe a small church in the country. Mm-hmm. Speaking at funerals, wedding newlyweds. Um, you know, probably a tent maker to a degree- Mm-hmm ... working some outside job, but writing those stern sermons that somehow affect their community. I think there's a longing in that, what do they call it? The old ti- old time religion, you know?
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. It's just the simple- Right ... pastoral role. But there's a longing for that kinda lifestyle and simplicity because we no longer have that- Mm-hmm ... in a pastoral, at least- Mm-hmm ... majority o- of our country. Right. What we're matched with is, uh, not only the role of a, a pastor's heart who shepherds people and who does go to the hospital rooms- Mm-hmm
and who does speak at funerals and who does do the newlyweds and welcomes the babies and, and, uh, encourages and equips people in, in the laity and in the church [00:28:00] pews, but also someone who has to make a financial decision about a playground.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Jay Cleveland: And someone who has to hire and fire. Mm-hmm. And someone who has to figure out what new media technology we're gonna invest in this year.
Yeah. Those are complicated roles. That's a lot of hats- Mm-hmm ... pastors are wearing. Matter of fact, some of the, you know, the most mature, or maybe not most mature, but the most, uh, uh, I guess, uh, uh, advanced in their role would say, "The best thing I ever did was hire an executive director-" No kidding ... "to handle all the responsibilities-" No kidding
"so I could step in and just do what I know to do."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Do what you're called to do and what you're gifted to do. Yeah.
Jay Cleveland: But what I see in all those years of waiting through entrepreneurship and through trying to start things and get the wind beneath the sails and see what the calling was and what's my purpose, is it here, is it there, is the Lord was leading me through situations and experiences to prepare me for a complex role- Yeah, you're right
at a church. Bingo. And I can't- The Lord,
Mike Glenn: the Lord doesn't waste a
Jay Cleveland: moment, does he? You know, and when your biggest fear is the Lord's wasting my life- ... [00:29:00] to be matched with those words. Yeah. Yeah. The Lord wastes nothing. Yeah. Nothing. Boy, that'll touch you. Mm. That'll hit you in the heart. Mm. You don't, you don't waste a crumb.
No. He'll put it to use.
Mike Glenn: No. That's it. So what would you say if you were talking to somebody who was considering school of ministry?
Jay Cleveland: You know, um, it's nine months, and you're not out of a lot of money. Mm-hmm. There's not a lot of risk here. There's so much more to gain than there is to risk. If someone were truly considering the school of ministry, I couldn't fan the flame enough. Mm-hmm. Uh, everything you think it's gonna be, you're probably misguided or wrong to a degree on that.
Um, this isn't the normal equipping or, um, expectation that you would... Even the word school of ministry- Mm-hmm ... it doesn't do it justice. Right. It just doesn't. Um, you need to understand that if you feel at any hi- if [00:30:00] any hint in your life that there is a calling on your life for ministry, you would be so well taken care of to go down this road- Yeah, to come-
than a traditional road ... work shi- we- work it out in the School of Ministry. Not saying the traditional road is wrong- Right ... by any means, or that it's not a part of your future. Mm-hmm. But this being the commitment level it is and the amount of investment that you receive- Mm-hmm ... from other people, you can't go wrong.
Right. This is the way.
Mike Glenn: Well, thanks for being here, Jay. Yeah. If you wanna know more about the ECN School of Ministry, you can find all that out at the ecnschoolofministry.org. Uh, this has been Jay Cleveland. He's a friend of ours, a friend of Engage Church Network, a student at the School of Ministry, and we are eager to continue to follow him and see how God unfolds his ministry, uh, in the months and years ahead.
I'm Mike Glenn. This is Engage Church Network. Thanks for being with us.[00:31:00]
Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
