Shared Leadership, Multiplied Ministry | Greg & Susan Jones
What happens when both people in a marriage are called to lead? Greg and Susan Jones have spent decades building something most ministry couples never figure out: a genuine partnership where complementary gifts multiply the work instead of dividing it. Mike Glenn sits down with the President and First Lady of Belmont University to talk about shared leadership, what the next generation is actually hungry for, and why the church that learns to call out gifts in others -- instead of doing everything itself -- is the one that will flourish in the years ahead.
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Mike Glenn: Dr. Greg Jones, the president of Belmont University, and Susan Pendleton Jones. Now, you're from North Carolina. Are you any kin to the Pendletons of Greenville, South Carolina?
Susan Pendleton Jones: Uh, only the ones in Virginia, I think.
Mike Glenn: Okay. Well, you know, there's a- I grew up in Pendleton ... Pendleton Street Baptist Church.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Oh. And
Mike Glenn: the Pend- so the Pendletons were a huge family in Greenville.
See, that, now, now, now I have given my Southern bonafides. Who are your people?
Greg Jones: So. Her real people are in Virginia. They're the Wise family.
Mike Glenn: Ah.
Greg Jones: And so she's-
Susan Pendleton Jones: That was my mother's maiden name. And her- It goes back about 11 generations in Virginia- Wow ... to 1635. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. My father would never do a genealogy. He says, "The folk, the people I know scare me to death."
"Why would I go find, why would I go find any more?" So, so, uh, welcome to Nashville. Uh, ha- being a, uh, [00:01:00] former board member of Belmont University and a big, uh, basketball fan all the way back from when we played in the gym- ... uh, o- o- over there, and p- and were winning all of the s- of the titles in division, what, three?
Two?
Greg Jones: NAIA back then.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, NAIA, yeah. And watching Rick Byrd coach. And then- Great
Greg Jones: guy ...
Mike Glenn: oh.
Greg Jones: Amazing coach,
Mike Glenn: too. Oh, don't make him any better. And then, uh, watching, um... Oh gosh, I can see his name. Casey. Casey, uh, take over after him and all that. Now, now first we got, w- why did you let Casey get away?
Greg Jones: Did you see what he's making
Mike Glenn: at Kansas State?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's one of the things where you really don't have to pray about that, do you? You
Greg Jones: just- Yeah,
Mike Glenn: that, it was good luck ...
Greg Jones: thank you, Jesus.
Mike Glenn: But
Greg Jones: we got another one of Rick's players- Oh,
Mike Glenn: yeah,
Greg Jones: yeah ... Evan Brads, who's an amazing guy, so we're keeping the
Mike Glenn: family. Re- remember, remember Evan when he played.
Greg Jones: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: When I saw him.
Greg Jones: And he's an old soul in a young man's body.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Greg Jones: He's a great guy.
Mike Glenn: So [00:02:00] you are a, a unique couple in that we have, we have two, what the world would call power players. Uh, u- usually in, in, in some kind of marriage, one is the star and one is the support role or something like that, just, just to be basic about it.
Uh, one likes the limelight, one doesn't like the limelight, uh, k- kind of thing. Both of you are in the public eye. Both of you are, are doing that. Now, and it's neither one of you's spouse's career drug you into this. This is who you are. You, you, you know what I mean? Uh, so you know- Mm-hmm, yeah ... sometimes, you know, my wife has to speak occasionally.
She hates it. Uh, but every now and then, being the, the first lady of, of, of a church draws her into that. Uh, that's your natural realm, Susan. Mm-hmm. That's your natural realm. So one of the things that, that we're seeing in, um- In the developing [00:03:00] future of the church, okay, I think there's a tsunami gonna hit the church in the next three to five years that's gonna rattle everything that we're holding onto right now.
And, uh, and, and I'm excited about it because I think there's, there is no better time than right now to be preaching and teaching and living out the gospel, because all the questions that are, that are being asked in our culture are Jesus questions.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So, uh, that, that's really ... I, I'm really frustrated I'm 69, because it's really gonna be a lot of fun, uh, in these next several years.
So talk to me about how you guys understand shared ministry, shared leadership. Uh, there are times when Greg is the expert and, and you trust his leadership. There are times Susan is the expert and you trust his leadership. So how did you guys come to, uh, to understand that, one, this is gonna be the best way for us to live, and it's the best way for us to do [00:04:00] our work?
Greg Jones: It's a great question. I'll, I'll take a first shot at it. Um, and that's that we discovered we have really complementary gifts.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: Uh, she is a student of scripture, and, you know, she grew up with Bible sword drills. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I grew up a Methodist preacher's kid. I knew something about the Bible-
but I didn't know the details. Yeah. And, uh, and there's a wisdom that comes from her, uh, deep engagement with scripture and her, uh ... the, the significance of her spiritual direction one on one, so she's very focused, uh- Mm-hmm ... in that way. I'm much more of a big picture, uh, kind of person. So we discovered we had complementary gifts, and, um, there'll be different people who are drawn to different, uh- Mm-hmm
ones of us just based on that. But also, um, I realize that I'm more limited if I don't draw on her wisdom and expertise, and she's more limited if she doesn't draw on [00:05:00] mine. Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm. Very true. Early on in our marriage, Greg was a college professor and I was pastor of a church, and when I went on maternity leave, he filled in for my congregation for me, and when he went on sabbatical, I filled in in teaching his classes at Loyola.
And so we began to realize that we could both ... We could be a team, not only at home-
Greg Jones: Mm-hmm ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: in raising our kids, but we could really be a team. So since the m- late 1980s, we have shared in each other's worlds over and over and over. And so when he became dean of the divinity school- I became a campus minister at Duke, and we were walking out one day after several years of doing that and living a very different, like, campus- Right
the students are, are awake very late at night. Mm-hmm. And we had three kids by that point, and we were going to bed at 9:00 o'clock. And the kids, students were calling at midnight- At midnight ... to say, "Hey, I got an idea about this or that." Yeah. And I was like, "Uh-oh." Yeah. You know, "This isn't quite working."
So we were l- [00:06:00] we were walking across Duke's campus, and he said, "Would you like to come over and, and work with me at the divinity school? We've got a lot of new projects happening and things I could really use your help with." So from that point on, we really began just l- building on what we had done in the church, and then continued it through the, the process of higher education, and it's just been a great, a great partnership.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: The main difference is that I'm wrong a lot more often than she is.
Susan Pendleton Jones: That's just assumed.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, that's right. That's the working premise of this conversation. That's right. All right. Now, one of the things that is, that is happening in the Church, uh, and, and it's John Stott who said-
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm ...
Mike Glenn: the first Reformation gave the Bible back to the people.
The second Reformation is giving the ministry back to the people. Uh, and we, we, we find out we're in the middle of that. Now, for a lot of pastors, because of the, the way that we have focused the pastoral ministry, [00:07:00] uh, have grown up thinking that they have to be the one in charge, that they have to be the CEO of the church.
It's why so many pastors are burning out. They're doing things they're not gifted at. You can work in your gifts all day long. You can't work long outside your gifts. Right. Uh, it burns you out. And because of that, they don't understand shared ministry. They don't understand the, the calling out of gifts in others, uh, and, and the success that that brings in the body of Christ.
Everybody has a gift. Nobody has all the gifts. Mm-hmm. Because there's something about us working together that reveals the glory of God that, that one person can't. Mm-hmm. So h- what would you say to, to, uh, to our friends who are listening going, "No-" You know, it, it's, it's my job, and I've gotta do it, and, uh, a- and that kind stuff.
What we're trying to do is help pastors reframe what they understand their job to be.
Greg Jones: Mm. I would say there's a book that Susan and I have spent a lot of time reflecting on, 'cause it has a lot of implications for our [00:08:00] work at Belmont. It's called 10 to 25. Mm-hmm. It's by a psychologist, and he said, "What young people 10 to 25 really want is what they call earned prestige."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: That is, they wanna have a sense of accomplishment that they've earned. Mm-hmm. And what he says they're really looking for is people with a mentor mindset, who come alongside- Right ... who help them discern their gifts. Mm-hmm. That we do too much, and we do it in the church, too, of thinking that, that the lay folks have a deficiency, and it's our job- Right
to supply that for them, and to be the people who try to help them overcome all their deficiencies- Mm-hmm ... rather than calling out their gifts. And I think when you have a mentor mindset, and come alongside and see that empowerment, I think that's what... I, I think the church would just flourish with young people.
Mm-hmm. And that's one of the things we see, and we've even seen it in the last two or three years. I agree with you about the, the, the glory days of the church could be in the next few years- I think so ... if we reach young people with that [00:09:00] mentor mindset- Mm-hmm ... because the yearning is incredible.
Mike Glenn: Belonging, loneliness, purpose.
Greg Jones: Yes.
Mike Glenn: Me- all of-
Greg Jones: All of that ... all of the Jesus questions They're looking for Jesus. Yeah. They just don't know that- That's right ... because we've done such a bad job of presenting him.
Mike Glenn: Exactly,
Susan Pendleton Jones: yeah. And I think another thing pastors need to do more of today is putting down their, their cell phones, putting down their laptops, and taking that time apart.
Like, Jesus went to a lonely place to pray. Mm-hmm. When He was in Jerusalem, He went out to sleep each night in the, on the Mount of Olives. Mm-hmm. He spent time alone, praying, and, and reading, and just learning more about this intimate relationship that He was developing with His Father. And I think if pastors would really, uh, commit to, to that spiritual depth, that first and foremost, then out of that will come all of the good of the connections and the relationships, and the, the people connecting that they need to be a part of and doing.
Mm-hmm. But they'll have that deep well of that foundation [00:10:00] in, in their relationship with God
Greg Jones: first and foremost. Young people especially, I think, are cynical about people who think they have all the answers, the kind of old model of the pastor who-
Mike Glenn: Right ...
Greg Jones: is gonna be the CEO, has, has an answer to unasked questions.
Right. Uh, but I think what they're really wanting is to see, are you real?
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Greg Jones: Is there depth? Can you help me find a sense of purpose?
Mike Glenn: Yeah. People call and say, "Man, I'd, I'd just really like to get your wisdom." And, and I tell them, you know, wisdom means I screwed up before you did. That's, that's all wisdom is.
Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't go down that road. Why? Well, I went down that road. Let me tell you it was at the dead end. And that kind of stuff.
When, when we were at, at, at Brentwood, you know, for 32 years, all of the great ministries of that church came from the laypeople, didn't come from us. The deaf ministry, the s- uh, Joe Hudson led all the building. I didn't do anything with the building. They named Hudson Hall after Joe Hudson. There's nothing [00:11:00] in that facility named after me.
Mm. So my granddaughter, special needs, shows up, and they named the special needs building after Rowan.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And it's beautiful. I've been there.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. And, and I, and I told Rowan- It's incredible ... I said, "You show up, and, you know, you get a building. I got nothing." But it is ... And so, but It's a great place ... but, but the ability that I learned early on, that to, to begin to ask the question, "Why did God send you to us?
What do you bring?" Mm. "What, what, what passion, what ministry, what gifts do you bring that we need?" And I began to be- uh, to develop this sense of where can I see the Spirit is marshaling forces?
Greg Jones: Mm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? Mm-hmm. Are we getting a certain group of people? Are we getting a certain group of gifts? Okay. Mm. Then that's where God's gonna be working, and I need to start paying, paying attention to that.
Greg Jones: When Susan was, uh, leading field education at Duke, uh, one Sunday she went out to Eastern North Carolina to a really small congregation in [00:12:00] the middle of nowhere between Raleigh and Wilmington. Mm-hmm. And she got to this church, and it was overflowing with people. Now, they were, uh, people of color- Mm-hmm
from Myanmar, refugees from the former Burma, now known as Myanmar. Mm-hmm. And she was talking to some of the longtime members of the church who were Anglo, and they said, "Well, you know, we prayed to God that he would send us children."
Mike Glenn: Yeah. "
Greg Jones: But we didn't specify what kind of children." And the church had increased many times over.
Double, double in attendance.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Greg Jones: And it was just flourishing- Mm-hmm ... 'cause they were just paying attention to who God was sending their way. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we want control. And if we give up control, recognizing God's in control.
Mike Glenn: Well, y- y- well, if, if we give up the illusion of control.
Greg Jones: Well, that's right.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Greg Jones: Our desire for control.
Mike Glenn: Yes. Yeah, yeah. You're never in charge, but
Greg Jones: so. That's right. But that's what, that's what ... You know, people come, and God s- God puts them in our lives, and then the question is are we listening and paying [00:13:00] attention? Mm-hmm. And that's when things really begin to explode- Mm-hmm
in a positive
Mike Glenn: way. In your soul work with, with, uh, with individuals, what do you wish the church would hear that they're saying to you?
Susan Pendleton Jones: Hmm. I think we all have that, that God-shaped void. in our lives that we need to, to be honest about, and we need to have filled. And too many young people today are filling it with trash.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: They're filling it with videos or with, you know, onscreen stuff- Mm-hmm ... or online things. And, and, uh, and what we're trying to help at Belmont, we're trying to help them fill it with soul.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: We've created this framework that's an acronym for S-O-U-L, to seek excellence with humility, to offer gratitude with joy, to unleash hospitality with love, and to live the [00:14:00] dream together with hope.
And it's, it's aiming at wisdom, but it's also undergirded by wisdom.
Greg Jones: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: So we're trying to help the students at Belmont grow in their, in their, in their souls. It's based on, uh, 3 John 1:2 that- Mm-hmm ... it's a prayer. It says, "We pray that as you are healthy in body, you might also, that your soul also might thrive."
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: So we're hoping that with the mentoring mindset that Greg was talking about and, and coming alongside, that we have faculty who pour into these students. Right. We have staff-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: who regularly pray for students. Uh, we're, we're b- we're doing a lot on the campus to build small prayer chapels and prayer rooms and, and to have spaces where students can just come together.
The librarian contacted me a few months ago and said, "We have students just coming together and praying in different parts of the library. I have a room up on the third floor that's a storage room. Could we clean that out and actually turn it into a prayer room [00:15:00] for the students?" Wow. So they'd have a place- A real
Mike Glenn: upper room.
Susan Pendleton Jones: A real upper room for the students. Yeah. So we have people, uh, really working together to try to meet the, the- Mm-hmm ... spiritual needs of, of our students every day, and it's beautiful.
Mike Glenn: Well, uh, o- one of the, one of the drawing cards of Belmont is that the professors are teachers.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: Absolutely.
Mike Glenn: And, uh- Yes
you know, they're not at, they're not doing research. They're actually teaching and writing and, uh- Teaching
Susan Pendleton Jones: is primary.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, teaching- Mm-hmm ... is primary in all their stuff. Mm-hmm. But to pick up on your point of the mentoring and, and how that happens, I tell senior adults all the time, "Do not join a senior adult Sunday school class.
Go join a young married Sunday school class-
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm, that's a
Mike Glenn: great idea ... and sit there." Mm. They don't know what a marriage of 45 years looks like. They, they don't, they don't ever see that. They're trying to be a dad, never had a dad. Trying to be a mother, never had a mother. They need to see what one looks like.
And, and so they never... So the, the senior [00:16:00] adults thinks, "No, nobody wants me," so they don't. And, uh, then the young adult's going, "Nobody will talk to me." And I, and I tell senior adults all the time Go ask them. Take them to lunch. Get to know them. Get to know their kids. Adopt their kids. And if this family doesn't want it, fine, find another family.
Right. Uh, they're, you know, they're lonely on every pew.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Well, one of the things- There's research... Oh,
Greg Jones: go
Susan Pendleton Jones: ahead ... one of the things that we've done at Belmont is team teach a class together- Right ... each spring. It's called What's Your Why? Because neither of us ever had a couple throughout our, all of our schooling that taught together.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And so we're trying to model that, mentoring and, and marriage and, and teaching together, and I think students really love it.
Greg Jones: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: We, we play off of each other, and, uh, and it's, we've seen-
Greg Jones: They actually ask for more time of- With us ... hearing just the two of us- Right ... 'cause we interview other people- Right
like Betty Wiseman and others. But they wanna hear just how we've managed to develop a relationship, and most of it's- Right ... lessons learned [00:17:00] from me-
Mike Glenn: Yeah. ...
Greg Jones: about how to do it poorly and learn. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, but you did learn.
Greg Jones: Slowly. You did learn. Slowly. She's still waiting on some fronts. But I was gonna say that that intergenerational thing is so important.
Mm-hmm. There's research- Mm ... that students are healthier on a Christian college campus if they're involved not in, not so much in a campus ministry, but in a local congregation- Right ... on Sundays.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And I think it's because that's where you get out of the comparison to your peers- Mm-hmm ... and you see families and older adults as you get that intergenerational, and I'm, impact.
And I'm pretty sure that some of those students go to church, and then s- a family invites them to come over for Sunday- Yeah ... dinner, and I think that, those relationships are powerful. When we were in Baltimore at, at a church, Susan started a... We noticed there were a lot of latchkey kids. Mm-hmm. It was a blue collar neighborhood.
Right. A lot of latchkey kids. And so we asked, we arranged to have the school buses drop the kids off at the church. Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And
Greg Jones: then we got the [00:18:00] retirees-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Greg Jones: to meet them there to work on homework. It was great for the kids. I think it was better for the senior adults.
Mike Glenn: I've gotta get up, take care of myself.
I gotta get ready. I got somewhere to go.
Greg Jones: I've got somebody who- This guy needs me. That's right. Right. And I think that intergenerational- Yeah, huge ... uh, the church is one of the few places where the generations come together.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And it's really important, and we've, we've too often segmented and said, "The kids are over here, the youth are there, and the adults are over here-"
Mike Glenn: Right
Greg Jones: when we need them interacting together.
Mike Glenn: And I, I would tell the young adults, I said, "You think these people were born old."
Greg Jones: They weren't.
Mike Glenn: They were once you. That's right. You know? That's right. And I said, "This is the guy who s- who stormed every major beach in World War II."
Greg Jones: Yeah. "
Mike Glenn: Sitting right over there."
Greg Jones: Mm.
Mike Glenn: And I said, "He's got stories." It's powerful. Yep. And stuff, you know. You, you know this corporation that you bu- Yeah. That's the guy that started it right over there. Yeah. So- Yeah ... yeah, the wisdom that, that is sitting out there. Tell me about [00:19:00] Christ-centered visioning.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm. Well, when Greg and I were first thinking about Belmont a little over five years ago, we looked on the website.
We knew a bit about Belmont, but we wanted to dig more deeply, and we saw that their mission statement was that it was a student-centered Christian community. Mm-hmm. Which we thought, "Well, that, that's great, but I wonder if we tested it to s- to change it to say a Christ-centered, student-focused community."
And so the first six months or so that we were there, we tested that with people, and they were like, "We really like that." Mm-hmm. And it's for a couple of reasons. One is it takes the focus off of us as Christians-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: and puts it on Christ to say Christ-centered, but it also puts Him first-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Susan Pendleton Jones: rather than the students being first. We love our students. We love the faculty and staff. They're all very important to Belmont, but they're not first, and, and Christ is first. Mm. And so we wanted to be sure that, that Belmont was living out that, [00:20:00] that commitment to putting Jesus first, and then we know everything else will fall into place after that.
So that's our goal. And, and developing that soul framework that helps us- Mm-hmm ... to remind people that it's, it's a lot about hospitality. It's a lot about reaching out and breaking down barriers and boundaries and, and continuing to love and to serve, uh, in the name of Christ, even students who aren't Christians.
We welcome everyone to be a student at Belmont.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And but it's, it's pretty amazing, through our mission trips and through the ministry of Betty Wiseman, who meets with students regularly and, and other faculty and staff.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, there's a, there's a Belmont basketball on every continent in the world.
Susan Pendleton Jones: That's right. That's right.
Mike Glenn: Because of mission trips. They're coming
Susan Pendleton Jones: to faith-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: because of those mission trips.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, yeah. Even if they-
Susan Pendleton Jones: Hundreds and
Greg Jones: hundreds- Yeah ... of students have come to faith- Oh ... and been baptized as a result of mission
Mike Glenn: trips, and- I know. She baptized them went over to our church.
Greg Jones: Yeah.
It's, it's amazing, and I would say that what the o- And,
Mike Glenn: and she never called and said- ... "Hey, when would be a good time?" She [00:21:00] would call me and say, "I'm bringing five over. We're b- we're gonna baptize Sunday."
Greg Jones: Yeah. I, I, I un- I know this- Yes, ma'am ... phone call. I'll
Mike Glenn: have the
Greg Jones: water. Yeah, come on. The thing, uh, Susan mentioning the soul framework, one of the interesting things was we've had biology faculty, nursing faculty come and say, "Hey, students in my class, they're asking about the soul framework."
Mm-hmm. "They're asking about these virtues of humility and joy and love and hope. Um, c- can you give us resources?" I think when you name things, that yearning that young people have- Mm-hmm ... they're just coming out of the woodwork 'cause they wanna learn more.
Mike Glenn: Well, we are seeing, uh, and, and everybody gets way too hyped, uh, the Gen Z's returning to church.
Now, what that means is- Uh, boomers have just about dropped out of church. We're going one time a month. Gen Z is resurging and it, that's about one and a half times a month. So you ha- you know, you have to understand what we're comparing everything to. But [00:22:00] they are returning to liturgical frame churches-
Greg Jones: Yeah
Mike Glenn: because of this. We know what this means. Mm-hmm. We know what time we're supposed to be there, and it gives an order to the day. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, when somebody shows up and says, "Hey, you can do anything you wanna do," that really doesn't help.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Yeah. Too much freedom.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it's no constraints.
Right. And we're learning it's the constraints- Mm-hmm ... that- that give us focus. It's the banks that give the river its- its- its power.
Greg Jones: Yep. Right. We have a freshman who, uh, grew up secular- Mm-hmm ... and- and has become Greek Orthodox.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Greg Jones: And went to a, like, what was it, three hour or four hour- Mm-hmm ... Easter- Oh, yeah
Orthodox Easter Service. And stood the whole time. And stood, yeah. Yes. And it's like that gives that structure in really powerful ways. Mm-hmm. And I do think that, that in a world where everything seems chaotic, that order- That's right. It- it is certain ... you know, Martin Luther said, uh, that even if Adam and Eve had never sinned, the law still would've been given.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: Because we need structure in our lives. Mm-hmm. And that's what [00:23:00] I think there's a real desire for that.
Mike Glenn: What breaks your heart for the students?
Susan Pendleton Jones: I would say the mental health challenges of- of this whole generation, of this timeframe, the divisiveness, divisiveness within communities- Mm-hmm ... and- and the polarization of politics. And I think growing up now is challenging and, um, and we- we're- we're working a lot. Greg can share with you more of what we're doing in mental health counseling and creating the- the mental health program over in the, uh, a new building that we're building, um, to just help address some of these issues, getting upstream before they become- Right
even deeper problems and issues.
Greg Jones: I think the, the... Susan's right. The loneliness and anxiety as well as the fear.
Mike Glenn: Right.
Greg Jones: You know, when the headlines are saying AI's gonna eliminate thousands and thousands of jobs. Mm-hmm. You know, when I was in college, I didn't think [00:24:00] about what I was gonna do after college- Right
until my senior year.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And, you know, it's- it's a, it's a different dynamic.
Mike Glenn: Now, I'm a little cynical, okay? I'm still waiting on my flying car. Okay, now s- I grew up in the '60s. I grew up in Huntsville, Alabama, NASA, space, all that. The Jetsons. I was gonna say The Jetsons. Jetsons. We were gonna have flying cars.
And people were worried about what we would do with so much leisure. Mm. There were people writing that when computers automate everything, we're gonna have too much time on our hands, and it will be a dangerous situation in that you will have too much leisure. Both of those predictions have been bogus.
Greg Jones: Right. No, I- I'm
Mike Glenn: with you on that. And so, so when everybody says AI is gonna rule the world, I'm-
Greg Jones: No, I don't think it's gonna rule the world, and I actually think- I'm a, I'm a
Mike Glenn: little suspect ...
Greg Jones: there, I think that whenever there's been a technological change, there, some things are gone and other things get created And they,
Mike Glenn: they, they just shift, don't
Greg Jones: they?
Yeah My point was the students are just hearing all these headlines- Yeah ... and [00:25:00] it creates fear-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Greg Jones: and anxiety. And, you know, they are looking at the future with uncertainty. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't help when the economy's going up and down and other kinds of things, and the divisiveness that Susan referred to.
But it's also that we have not done well with social media. That has created a really difficult time for teenagers. I was, we were in, uh, Knoxville and visited schools through the day, a, a, a Christian school, a public school, and an independent school.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: All of them had taken away cell phones- Yeah.
Sure ... during the day.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And they talked about how the young people loved
Mike Glenn: it. Yeah. But- Well, our first clue should've been the guys who made the iPhone and the iPad wouldn't let their own kids- Right ... have them in school.
Greg Jones: Right.
Mike Glenn: That was your first clue.
Greg Jones: Right. But I think what we're seeing is that a friend of mine, uh, at another university said, "If you assume that most 18-year-olds are intellectually about 30-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Greg Jones: you'll occasionally be [00:26:00] wrong, but not as often as you think-" "... 'cause they're just getting so many opportunities." But he said, "If you assume that emotionally they're about 12- 12, right ... you'll sometimes be wrong" Because we haven't done a good job of helping them- Them
Mike Glenn: grow up ...
Greg Jones: grow up and learn how to interact with people.
Mm-hmm. And I think actually in a world of AI, the biggest changes are gonna be, uh, around relationships. Mm-hmm. And people who have relational skills are the people who are gonna get ahead. Unfortunately, that's not something our educational systems are very good at- Yeah ... cultivating.
Mike Glenn: Or even identifies.
Greg Jones: Right. Yeah. And we're now, we're really focusing on that as part of the soul framework and part of what I think young people want. We talk about unlikely friendships.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: Go find a friend- Yeah ... that's unlike you. Yeah. And listen to them and learn from them. It may be 'cause they're from a different part of the country or world.
Mm-hmm. May also be that, you know, if you're a musician, you're probably gonna find an accountant weird.
Mike Glenn: That's right.
Greg Jones: But it might also be a really life-giving- You, you, yeah ... friendship.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. Especially if you're a musician.
Greg Jones: That's right. You
Mike Glenn: need an accountant.
Greg Jones: Yeah, that's right. But [00:27:00] I think that the, the yearning for friendship-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Greg Jones: and relationship is what- But
Mike Glenn: what is it the, uh, most people don't know who to call at 3:00 in the morning?
Greg Jones: Yeah.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Right. Right.
Greg Jones: Yeah. It was, uh, I, we, I was down in Naples preaching at a church, and a woman came up afterwards and, uh, she said, "Can I talk to you?" And I said, "Sure." She said, "I'm a Belmont parent." And I said, "Oh."
She said, "You moved my son's refrigerator in during, uh, move in." And I thought, "Oh-" You must be Luke's mom, 'cause I only moved like two in. I did it for the photo op- Yeah ... not because I was gonna move a whole bunch of- Yeah, yeah ... re- refrigerators in. But- President
Mike Glenn: Jones, stand here.
Greg Jones: Yeah, that's right. But, uh, but then she said, "He's loving Belmont.
He loves his classes," and she said, "But he's not eating because he's lonely." Mm-hmm. General- And he doesn't have anybody to eat with. He
Mike Glenn: won't go to the caf.
Greg Jones: And I said, "Oh, my." You know, we don't have... We d- we didn't, we're now putting them in place, ways to check in- Mm-hmm ... on are [00:28:00] people connecting? Mm-hmm. You know, that was E.M.
Forster's epigraph, only connect. When you feel connected in a friendship, in a relationship, or hopefully multiple- Mm ... relationships, you know, resilience is really rooted to webs of relationship. Mm-hmm. You're a lot more resilient if you have friendships and if you n- Yeah ... have people to call.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Well, and eating together is such a key Christian vocation, right?
And their eyes- It's really- ... were o- made open-
Mike Glenn: Jesus left
Susan Pendleton Jones: us a table ... in the breaking of the bread. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Jesus left us a table.
Greg Jones: Yep.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Yep. That's exactly right. And that, that beautiful take, bless, break, and give- Yeah ... that Eucharistic pattern of, of, of giving himself in, in the meal and s- and do this in remembrance of me, is not just for communion.
It means when you sit at the table and you gather together and you eat together, y- Christ is with you. Yeah, yeah. That's true. Remember me- I, um- ... and do
Mike Glenn: this with
Susan Pendleton Jones: me ...
Mike Glenn: I'm, in, in my own studies, I'm studying the resurrection narratives. Mm. Just-
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: And, and, and, [00:29:00] and in Luke, Jesus says, "Hey, Peter, why did you doubt?
Why, why, why did you- Right ... lose your faith? And have you got anything to eat?"
Susan Pendleton Jones: Right.
Mike Glenn: Well, because listen, nothing seals the deal like a meal.
Greg Jones: That's right. Right.
Mike Glenn: I mean, any time we celebrate, any time we close something, hey, we have a, you know... The donor makes a big deal, you go to a meal.
Greg Jones: That's
Mike Glenn: right. Right.
You know? Now the resurrection's happened and we're gonna seal it by eating together.
Greg Jones: Mm-hmm. So- And we've done too much, across our culture, we've treated food as fuel-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Greg Jones: and not had the kind of celebratory meal-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Greg Jones: that, you know, we, we don't do that well as a culture.
Mike Glenn: No.
Greg Jones: And it's, and it's part of what's causing us to feel that sense of isolation.
Susan Pendleton Jones: We're taking the old powerhouse at Belmont that used to have the big boiler and- Oh, yeah ... everything, and we're turning it into a big venue for eating together in the center of campus, at the heart of campus, calling it The CORD, Create [00:30:00] Opportunity-
Greg Jones: Realize
Susan Pendleton Jones: Dreams ... Realize Dreams. I was trying to remember the R.
Realize Dreams. It's a really beautiful concept, and I'm very excited about it. We're b- we've just broke ground last week, and, uh, we're hoping to have it finished in about a year and a half, and that'll be a great place for students to gather- Mm ... and come together and eat and, and play instruments and be a wonderful venue.
Greg Jones: You know, Jesus said, "No longer do I call you servants. I call you friends." Right. And we've trivialized friendship.
Mike Glenn: Oh, yeah.
Greg Jones: And yet it's at the heart- Yeah, nothing's worth- ... of what makes life worth living ... being
Mike Glenn: called
Greg Jones: just a friend.
Mike Glenn: That's right. He's just a friend.
Greg Jones: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: What is...
Greg Jones: But that's, it is so important to ministry- Mm
to life- Mm-hmm ... and we've trivialized it when it's really at the heart.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. One of, one of my best friends, uh, there's, there's no reason in the world we should be friends. We have, we have nothing in common. He didn't go to college. He worked, uh, for a rock company. Uh, you know, and, but he's the funniest human [00:31:00] being I've ever been around in my life.
He can crack me up during, you know, during the weather. Uh, but when my dad died, uh, it's 7:00 in the morning in Huntsville, Alabama, and we hear a Harley coming down the road, and my aunt looks at me and goes, "Who's riding a Harley this time of the morning?" And my sons look at me and go, "That's Lanny." They knew Lanny had come.
Mm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm. And
Mike Glenn: Lanny... And so we finally flag Lanny down, and he, he pulls up in the driveway saying, "I'm glad y'all up. I've been circling the block here since..." That's so good.
Greg Jones: I remember Susan and I, when we were students, we heard a sermon. We were fairly newly married, and the preacher said, and he was, he was talking about, uh, friendship and, and Jesus, and he said, "You know, if a friend calls and says, 'I need to see you this weekend'-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm
Greg Jones: your first reaction isn't, how much is the ticket gonna be?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: It's, what do I need to- [00:32:00]
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Greg Jones: get off my calendar so I can be there?
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. And
Greg Jones: it's, you know, your friend showing up after your dad died. Mm-hmm. That's what friends do. Mm. Mm-hmm. And it means the world.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Early on in our marriage, we, uh, developed a phrase called holy friendships-
Greg Jones: Mm-hmm
Susan Pendleton Jones: of those people who, uh, are aware of the sins- Challenge the sins we come- ... challenge the sins that we've come to love, encourage the gifts that we're afraid to claim, and help us to dream the dreams that we otherwise might not imagine. Mm-hmm. It's easy when you, when you, uh- Live into y- you, you know y- the good about yourself, but you don't always know what your, your foibles are and your sins are.
So these are people who have the courage to, to gently tell you- Mm ... what, what you need to work on. Or not so gently- Or the- ... in the case of Susan and me. Stop.
Mike Glenn: Well, you know, the, the, the thing about gifts is they come easily, they come naturally, so you don't see the importance of
Susan Pendleton Jones: them. Right.
Mike Glenn: And it takes the church, it takes the [00:33:00] body to go- Right
"Hey, you're good at this. You need to pay attention to this. We need what you bring to us."
Susan Pendleton Jones: That's right.
Mike Glenn: And the same thing, I tell people all the time, you gotta be in a, a Bible study if you're gonna grow.
Greg Jones: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Because if you don't have a band of brothers or band of sisters- Mm-hmm ... around you going, "Yes, that does apply to you."
Susan Pendleton Jones: Yeah. I love Paul's descriptions in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12- Yeah ... about the body of Christ- Yeah ... and how we just are, are built with this beauty of the diversity of our gifts- Mm-hmm ... and members of the body, and we're not... We can't all be eyes or ears. Mm. Some of us are feet, you know? Um, but we need all parts of the body to be a whole, a whole body.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, we don't do that. It's beautiful. So what is the gift you call down in her? What gift did she not see that you call down in her?
Greg Jones: There are so many. I, I would say probably, um, the, the gift of, um, insight into people. She is [00:34:00] uncanny- Mm-hmm ... in seeing spiritual gifts in people and other limitations. There have been, I think, three times when- I've gone against her judgment on whether to hire somebody, and I lived to regret it all three times.
Three times. All three times. You'd think I would- It's a slow learner ... catch on quicker. I'm a slow learner. Three years. But there is, there is... And I- it is an incredible spiritual gift- Mm-hmm ... that she has. Mm-hmm. And it is one that's born of wisdom, and she really sees, um, she looks not for the conventional kinds of things.
She doesn't care where somebody went to school. Mm. She doesn't care what their background is. She's looking to see, um, do they have the gifts that will make a community better? Mm-hmm. And, uh, she has tended to have some doubt about her own judgment, and, you know, being in an academic community, you know, f- is filled with a lot of pretense.
Mm-hmm. And she cuts right through it, and she's got that gift and, and has helped me see over the years, um, the, the [00:35:00] importance of staff members in a community. You know, the most important people in all three of our kids' lives in- during college were staff people- Mm-hmm ... not faculty.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And I see that all the time at Belmont- Mm-hmm
that it is people who've been there, who may be a staff assistant or may be a landscaper or a public safety officer, who really value. Uh, Susan and I were talking. Last night I got this beautiful message from a parent, uh, whose son will graduate on Saturday, thanking me, uh, for the culture that Belmont has in the community.
Mm. And she listed about eight people by name.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: Only one of them was a faculty person. Yeah. And Susan has that gift and that relational
Mike Glenn: gift. And, and none of those pe- now understand how I say this. None of those people that were listed would be important in the structure- That's
Greg Jones: right. That's right
Mike Glenn: hierarchy. That's
Greg Jones: exactly
Susan Pendleton Jones: right ...
Mike Glenn: but they are vital to the success of the school. The
Greg Jones: students. Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Mm. And Susan's really got that uncanny gift for seeing the people who really [00:36:00] shine. Mm-hmm. And she regularly is telling me, at Belmont she says, "Did you know I met a custodian who, uh, also is an artist?"
Yeah. And she's engaged them and seen a gift in them. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "Wow, I need to pay more attention." Need to
Mike Glenn: walk around more. Yeah.
Greg Jones: So- Not
Mike Glenn: just go from here to there, but- Yeah ... try to... So what was the gift you called out
Susan Pendleton Jones: in him? I was gonna say, we don't have enough time for me to tell you all of Greg's gifts.
Oh, my gosh. No,
Mike Glenn: the one that you-
Susan Pendleton Jones: But- ...
Mike Glenn: you showed-
Susan Pendleton Jones: But I- ... the one you picked out ... I try to draw out in him his gift for humor.
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: He has a great sense of humor, and he's, he's wonderful in, in mee- people will be down the hall and they'll say, "Oh, there's Greg," 'cause they can hear him laughing-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: down the hall.
And he, uh, puts people at ease because of that gift. But probably his greatest gift- And he had it before I met him, but I noticed it in him, is his ability to draw various types of people together and connect them and get them in conversation and have sort of like [00:37:00] the table imagery, right? Of everybody's welcome at the table, and he gathers them together.
And sometimes I think, oh, what do all these people have in common? And by the end of a conversation- Yeah ... you're like, "Okay, now this- Yeah ... this makes perfect sense." Makes sense. Yeah. I understand.
Mike Glenn: The power to convene.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Yes. Great. Mm-hmm. And, and to remember.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And to have it all make sense. Mm-hmm. It's really beautiful.
Mike Glenn: What are you reading in scripture, and what is Jesus teaching you?
Susan Pendleton Jones: Hmm. I'm doing a Bible study with, with a friend on Zoom. We just finished the Gospel of Luke.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And now we're moving into Matthew. And I just loved the, the time we had together just- Mm ... digging deep into the Gospel of Luke and just the beauty of, of so many parables.
Mike Glenn: And what's Jesus teaching you out of
Susan Pendleton Jones: that? Hmm. Hospitality is a huge part of it. Of, of being, uh, taking the risk, of having unlikely friends-
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: of welcoming those who are different. [00:38:00] Um, we, we designed a house in Durham where we lived to be a house of hospitality, and we had over 30 different families from Duke Hospital come and stay for free- Mm-hmm
in the apartment above the garage and in the basement apartment. And I learned through that the beauty of just people's faith and their need for prayer when their relatives are ill.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And it was just a really great experience. So we're doing something similar here now too. I've just put an addition onto our house so we can invite people to come and stay.
So I think hospitality is one of the most important things- Yeah. Thank you ... that we can learn as Christians.
Greg Jones: Mm.
Mike Glenn: What are you reading in scripture?
Greg Jones: I've been spending more time in the Psalms. Uh, I say half-jokingly that Psalms are the country western music- ... of the Bible. 'Cause, you know, it's all raw. Yeah.
You know? Yeah. It's, it's the full range of emotions. But, uh, we have a, we have a friend and former colleague who reads six Psalms every morning. Mm-hmm. And I've [00:39:00] been struck by, you know, on 9/11 she was the one who said, uh, exactly where we needed to go. And I thought, boy, she's got that as a reservoir.
Mike Glenn: Right. Yeah.
Greg Jones: And the Psalms, because they have the full range of, you know, s- smite my enemies- Mm-hmm ... to- Mm-hmm ... uh, I'm, I'm feeling like I'm in Sheol-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Greg Jones: to the real affirming or the praise Psalms. Yeah. And, uh, you know, Susan's the one who taught me about the last five Psalms being this crescendo of praise.
Mm-hmm. And one of the things I've learned is when I read the Psalms, that, um- They often will present things that aren't my current mood, which is a good thing. Mm-hmm. So sometimes when I'm feeling like at, on top of the world, I get a lament Psalm. That's
Mike Glenn: right. And
Greg Jones: then sometimes when I'm really down, I get the Psalm of praise.
Yeah. And it just calls me out of myself, and what I n- have learned to call, Susan pointed them out to me, my pity parties, when I'm kinda woe is me.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And the Psalms have a way of just acknowledging [00:40:00] where you are, but also calling you out of where you are- Mm-hmm ... into the praise of God.
Susan Pendleton Jones: They al- How's- They, uh- Oh
go ahead.
Greg Jones: Go ahead.
Susan Pendleton Jones: They allow that expression of frustration- Mm.
Greg Jones: Yeah ...
Susan Pendleton Jones: and, and anger and- Mm-hmm ... you know, if you can say it to God- How long?
Mike Glenn: How
Susan Pendleton Jones: long? Yeah. How long, Lord? I keep calling,
Mike Glenn: you don't
Susan Pendleton Jones: answer. That's right.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. All that
Greg Jones: stuff. There's
Susan Pendleton Jones: also- Wake up. You're, you're sleeping, God, right?
Greg Jones: There's also one prayer that a woman we admire greatly, um, prays every morning.
She's from Burundi, and has-
Mike Glenn: Mm ...
Greg Jones: beheld more suffering and had to deal with horrifying evil than any human being ought to have to do. She's a devout Christian, and, uh, she told me once that she prays an hour every afternoon. I said, "Well, what do you pray?" She said, "Well, mostly I listen to God." And I thought, "Dadgumit, I wanted some techniques to help me," you know?
'Cause if I just try to listen- Yeah ... to God, I fall asleep. That's
Mike Glenn: me. Or, or you end up going, "
Greg Jones: Well, it's
Mike Glenn: just carpet world."
Greg Jones: Yeah. Yeah, you know? But, but she said, "I pray one prayer every morning." I said, "Well, what do you pray?" And she said, "I don't know how it'd sound in English," 'cause that's her third language.[00:41:00]
Mm-hmm. She, Kirundi and then French are her first two languages. She paused and she said, uh, "Well, it goes something like this in English. Lord, let your miracles break forth each day, and let me not be an obstacle in any way."
Mike Glenn: Mm.
Greg Jones: And I use that before I do, read scripture and afterwards. Yeah. And I just, it has a way of centering me, A, to remind me that miracles do break forth, that God is at work in the world.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Greg Jones: And not to be self-centered, to try to get out of the way-
Mike Glenn: Yeah ...
Greg Jones: so that God can work. Mm-hmm. And that is, that has been a gift to see, and it's reminded me to look for the miracles when I'm ready to, you know, shoot somebody who's- ... annoyed me in a meeting. Who
Mike Glenn: needs it. Who deserves it.
Greg Jones: That's right.
Indeed. Yeah. All right.
Mike Glenn: Let me, let me finish with my, with my, uh, my Greg and Susan story. Uh, [00:42:00] I had just rotated off the board and, and Bob, uh, who had been president for 20 years- 21 years ... 21 years, had just retired. Bob the Builder- Mm ... uh, as we call him because, uh, of, of all the construction and all, and the, the transition that Bob led, uh, uh, and we're talking about Bob Fisher, uh, former president of Belmont.
Uh, the transition that Bob led from a small, almost community Baptist college- to a, uh, to, to a university of national import. Mm-hmm. I mean, people knew about Belmont when- Mm-hmm ... when, and I, I got to be part of that ride. He steps down and, and there is no small amount of anxiety because of all the critical junctures that were coming together.
The, the future of Belmont, what kind of future? Would, would, would Belmont lose its Christian identity and heritage? I mean, there, there was a lot of anxiety and prayer. [00:43:00] Marty Dickens was the chair of, of... you know, a mutual friend of ours. Uh, and, uh, and then we hear the rumors leaking that, that he has, he has secured Greg Jones.
And we, we are beside ourselves. Because if we had put a list together, we would've put you on that list of people we could never get.
Greg Jones: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: Okay? And, and so you come, your strong sense of Christian faith, your strong academic, and it, it is a home run hit. We had no idea how far we hit, how well we did- ... in that hire because we got to meet you.
Hmm. Oh, thank you. Now understand, I am a, uh, you know, a pastor, so I, I knew him and I knew his book. Did not know you.
Susan Pendleton Jones: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: But, but Susan, to, to pick up, uh, return, the soul you have brought-
Susan Pendleton Jones: Hmm. Hmm ...
Mike Glenn: to this adventure has been just, uh... It's what we [00:44:00] prayed for if we had known that we needed to pray for it- ... or that we could pray for it.
You ever had a prayer answered like that? This is exactly what I wanted, but I didn't even know to ask for it. Oh,
Susan Pendleton Jones: thank
Mike Glenn: you. Thank you. And so watching you two lead Belmont in this transition and the emphasis you have has been just a real, real kick for me from the sidelines.
Greg Jones: Well,
Mike Glenn: appreciate that. A real privilege, so.
Greg Jones: We're grateful for- Thank you ... your leadership and a lot of, uh, our faculty, staff and students have been part of Brentwood Baptist- Yeah ... and been- For sure ... shaped. And we just feel like we've been blessed to come to Belmont. I tell prospective parents of students part of what drew us was we thought we'd become better people- Yeah.
by coming to, to Belmont and to Nashville, and we just love this community- Yeah ... and this region. And- Oh, yeah,
Mike Glenn: we do too ...
Greg Jones: I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade being at Belmont and in Nashville for anything- Yeah ... anywhere else in the world. I hear that.
Mike Glenn: I
Greg Jones: hear that. It's a, it's
Susan Pendleton Jones: a blessing. I love being at a place where they traded out the mace in the procession for a bowl- Mm-hmm
and a chalice to, to emphasize that [00:45:00] servanthood. Servanthood,
Mike Glenn: everything we teach, everything.
Susan Pendleton Jones: And that's, that's the role that we try to occupy, is being the servant leaders.
Mike Glenn: She is Reverend Susan Pendleton Jones, and he is Dr. Greg Jones. And for me, reverend's better than doctor, so.
Greg Jones: I agree.
Mike Glenn: I agree with that, so.
Greg Jones: She's closer to God than I am Well,
Mike Glenn: we'll end it on that. Not true. Not true. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thanks, guys, for
being here. Thank you.
