Jonathan Pitts on Ministry and Grief
In this powerful conversation, Jonathan Pitts shares his remarkable journey of faith, loss, and resilience. A pastor, father of four daughters, and leader in ministry, Jonathan’s world was turned upside down when his wife, Winter, suddenly passed away at the age of 38. He opens up about navigating grief while raising his girls, moving to Franklin, Tennessee, and discovering God’s sustaining presence through unimaginable hardship.
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Mike Glenn: You always want your children to find their own way and be their own, and then when they are, it just frustrates the heck out of you . I have a plan for you. That's right. Listen, God loves you. I have a plan for your life. You know how that goes.
Exactly.
We have this, we have this myth of Christianity that if you love Jesus and follow Jesus, then everything works in your life, and there's no struggles, and there's no hard times. And, you know, you can always find a parking place at Walmart, and, and, uh ... But, but it didn't go that way for you, did it?
Jonathan Pitts: No, no. Yeah, I would say that would be a myth.
Uh- If
Mike Glenn: I'm
Jonathan Pitts: a Christian, that would be- Oh, yeah,
Mike Glenn: that's right. [00:01:00] That would be a big question. Or maybe you really don't love Jesus, huh? Yeah. Uh,
Jonathan Pitts: definitely a myth. Yeah, I, um, I had that life, uh, for a long time. I'm 38 years old. I find myself, I'm married for 15 years- Mm-hmm ... to the love of my life. I've got four beautiful daughters that are age 14, 11, my twins are 9 at this point.
And, um, I'm a pastor at a big mega church. Mm-hmm. Uh, new, new pastor at a big mega church, and, um, bottom line is the bottom dropped out from under me, uh, when my wife, uh, Winter, uh, what, what's her name, is her name, uh, passed away at the age of 38 super suddenly. Um, and that changed my life forever, and, uh-
Mike Glenn: It's like stepping on a landmine, isn't it?
Just- Yeah ... click, boom.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, yeah. It changed my life drastically overnight and the life of my daughters drastically overnight. How
Mike Glenn: old were your daughters then?
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, 14 and 11, my twins were 9, so I have four girls. I now have five kids, which is beautiful, but, um, yeah, uh, my girls were a teenager, a soon-to-be [00:02:00] teenager, and a couple tweens, I guess you'd call them, so.
Mike Glenn: Just at the point of life when they needed their mom most. Yeah, and we were- So ... we
Jonathan Pitts: had, we had just moved to Nashville from Dallas, bought a new house, new church that I'm working at that we're going to, new school- Mm-hmm ... new everything. So we, we kind of, uh, came to, to Franklin, Tennessee, uh, expecting one thing and got something completely different.
Right. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Yeah. So w- a ministry was started that your wife started- Mm-hmm ... uh, for the girls, and, uh, we wanna talk about that a minute, but let's talk about how'd you get through that? I mean, I've been married to Jeannie for 45 years, and- Mm ... and honestly, the fear I have of something happening to her-
Jonathan Pitts: Wow
Mike Glenn: I'd, I'd j- I j- I lock down.
Jonathan Pitts: Yep.
Mike Glenn: My mind won't let me go there. It just- Yep ... no, we're not opening that door.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, I mean, the short answer is the Lord. I guess the longer answer would be a, a couple things. One, I, the thing I'm really grateful for- Mm-hmm ... that my [00:03:00] parents did for me, my parents, married to this day, just crossed 50 years a couple months ago, and the thing I would s- I never would've thought about this, but my parents discipled my family, my siblings and I, really well around, uh, what I would call, uh, the disciple, the, the discipleship of, of loss and death and grief.
So we, like we grew up in a little tiny church in New Jersey, where I'm from, and I wasn't shielded from what can go wrong. Right. I didn't ex- I didn't expect that life would be a certain way. We were just around- Mm-hmm ... in the church we were in, the life we were in, we were around a lot of difficulty and hardship.
Mm-hmm. My parents did ministry in that context, so I wasn't naive to what could happen. Um, but I was still obviously shocked and surprised when it did. Um, but, um, I'm really grateful. God's wild. Um, you know, I was, uh, I kinda grew up in the Evans brand of ministry, Tony Evans. Mm-hmm. I was, uh, a young, um, pastoral assistant for him for a time, and would end up being his executive, or not his executive pastor, but his, uh, executive director of the Urban Alternative- Mm-hmm
his national ministry. And so I was, I [00:04:00] was literally leaving that role to come to Nashville to be an executive pastor, and my, my late wife and I, Winter, um, felt like God was moving us here. We felt like he was like just doing things to move us in this direction. Mm-hmm. So we're excited about life, and quite honestly, like, uh, everything was new.
Like school was new, church, everything was new. Mm-hmm. And, um, I'm just type A enough to think, you know, after my wife passed, the thing I'm, I'm grateful for in my own personality is that somehow God's wired me to be celebratory. Mm-hmm. So when something tough happens, I'm always looking for the silver lining.
Mm-hmm. How can the glass be half full? So I had a mindset- Mm-hmm ... of, um, a lot of theologians would call it the discipline of celebration. Right. Just this, Philippians 4:8, whatever's true, whatever's right, whatever's honorable- Mm-hmm ... whatever's pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, praiseworthy, dwell on these things, think on these things.
And so I ha- I kinda naturally leaned that way. Mm-hmm. So I don't naturally lean towards nostalgia of [00:05:00] what's behind or, um, yeah, I don't, I don't struggle with depression, and so I think personality- Yeah, see I'm the
Mike Glenn: exact opposite. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna get angry. I wanna get ... Well,
Jonathan Pitts: yeah, yeah. And, by, by the way, I've, I, having pastored, having been pastoring a while, like I'm now aware that people are wired typically one of two ways.
Yeah. Either they're, they're, they're forward-looking or they're backward-looking, and neither, uh, I had a coun- counselor say to me that neither of those places are good. We should be like present. That's right, yeah. That's where God is. We wanna be present. That's right. And so my struggle's more like looking to the future ahead.
Mm-hmm. And so like I already in my mind- You know, as soon as she passes away, I'm trying to figure out, okay, I, I knew in the moment, like literally she had a heart dysrhythmia, her heart stops. Oh. My girls are at the hospital, and I'm like, "What do I do?" And I'm just thinking about, "Okay, what do I do that's both...
What do I, what do I say to my girls?" And I'm thinking in my mind, "What do I say that's true that's also helpful, hopeful in the moment?" Right. And so I just say, "Mommy went home to be with Jesus." So by God's grace, he gave me a natural wiring and I guess a little bit of discipleship that helped me [00:06:00] lead well with my girls in that moment.
Mm-hmm. But, um, I would say I've got this tattoo on my back, uh, "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he rescues them," which is- Mm-hmm ... uh, Psalm 34:7. And, uh, I would say that God rescued me because, you know, what would happen is I'd move here to Na- We bought h- Winter and I bought a house together in Franklin.
We lived there four nights, went back to Dallas for a week to do my last week of work with Dr. Evans. Mm-hmm. And she passed away suddenly on that Tuesday. So we would, we'd bury her on that Saturday. My girls would go to Pine Cove Christian Camps that Sunday. They were already planning to go to camp, and I would, I would actually get a little bit of reprieve, and I'd, I'd actually start grieving- Yeah
you know, when they, when they left. Right. And then we'd fly back to Nashville without, without Winter. And so it was a really bizarre time, but I had a sister, my oldest sister, Carmen, she's never been married, never had kids. She told me at Winter's funeral, she said, "Hey, I feel like the Lord told me if, if, if you need me to come, that I'm supposed to just basically drop my life and come."
And so, uh, I was type [00:07:00] A enough, like I said, to not feel like I needed that. I'm like- Right ... "I'm okay, Carmen. I'll be okay." And, uh, two weeks later, I burn a chicken. I run up to my bedroom and just, like, basically cry my eyes out. And I, I text my sister, and I say, "Hey, is that offer still on the table?"
Mike Glenn: It's always, it's always that one, that one little thing.
That little failure. Yeah. That, that, that just sends you right over the edge, right? And what's so funny is
Jonathan Pitts: I had to burn a chicken to realize that I was not Superman, you know? So I ended up, um, I ended up reaching out to her. And so Winter passes on July 24th of 2018. Uh, I'd come back to, to Franklin, um, s- like, maybe it's, like, July 29th, and then, um, or 30th something.
But then, um- Darren, uh, Whitehead, my now pastor and boss, would say to me- Mm-hmm ... "Hey, um, you know, if you wanna stay in Dallas, we'll, we'll get your stuff back. We'll help you sell your house. You don't have to make this move." But he said to me this thing that I think is really beautiful, and it's the heart of the gospel.
He said, "If, uh, but if you come, uh, [00:08:00] we wanna adopt you. Uh, like, w- we will adopt you." Mm-hmm. Like, this... And our, our church has that, kinda ha- that idea built into it, just this love for adoption, but, uh, he said, "You'll find a family ready to adopt you." Mm. It's exactly what he said to me. And so between- Well,
Mike Glenn: both, both literally and figuratively, uh, Darren and, and the Church of The City- Yeah
one of the leading advocates of adoption and foster care in, in the Middle Tennessee area, and he lead- Yeah, big, big heart for adoption ... lead, lead well. And I, I didn't,
Jonathan Pitts: I didn't really know that coming into the story. Mm-hmm. And it was pretty, it was pretty new. Like, he and Brandy were kinda working through their heart for ministry, and Brandy's a social worker.
Right. And so, like, he always says, like, "What Church of the City is is what you get when a pastor marries a social worker." And so I, by God's grace, the angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him- Right ... and He rescues you. Between my sister and Church of The City, I found myself enveloped by the love of God in a very tangible way- Right
um, that I can't take credit for. It's just the way that He worked things out in my life. Mm-hmm. Um, but really grateful. Uh, my girls' school, a great Christian school in our area, also wrapped [00:09:00] around my girls, and yeah, I would, I would say I came to Franklin, Tennessee thinking I was gonna contribute to a- Yeah
a growing church, and I have, but ultimately I came to Franklin, Tennessee because God knew I needed to heal- Yeah ... and that my girls needed to heal. It's been a great place for healing. In Church, Church of The
Mike Glenn: City. Yeah. Now, out of that, your, your wife had started a ministry. Mm-hmm,
Jonathan Pitts: yep.
Mike Glenn: So- And, and you chose to continue that.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, so in, uh, 2011, we've got a seven-year-old, a Four almost five-year-old and twins that are two. And, um-
Mike Glenn: Now, now Jeanne and I had twins, and we quit. Yeah. The,
Jonathan Pitts: um, for me, the Lord knew that I probably would quit, and he was like- No, no, no ... he's like, "Nope." We rode,
Mike Glenn: we rode doubles the first time. Yeah. We're not gonna play again, so
Yeah, he said, "I'm gonna give you those
Jonathan Pitts: twins last. I need you to have these four babies," so. But anyway, in, in 2011, she just saw this gap. She had, she, she actually worked with Dr. Evans. She was a grant writer. Mm-hmm. She was a, kind of a f- fundraiser, but more in the, uh, grant writing kind of space, and felt called home to be with our girls.
And when she got home to be with our girls, she [00:10:00] just, one, she didn't really enjoy it. She wasn't like that baked bread homeschool mom type. Mm-hmm. But really out of, like, the obedience to be home and the burden that God gave her because she saw, like, there's no resources for little girls, um, she decided to create a resource.
She downloaded a free copy of Adobe InDesign. Three computers and three free copies later, she had this thing called For Girls Like You, which- ... now is, it wasn't then, but now is a magazine, bimonthly magazine for tween girls. Um, and she stumbled into it, but stumbling into that, she stumbled, stumbled into publishing.
Before she'd pass away, she'd publish eight books and resources for girls. Um, and when she died, I, what's funny is I didn't believe in her or it. I jokingly used to call it a for-profit nonprofit. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: that's right. Yeah. Never made
Jonathan Pitts: any money. It only cost us. Um, but what's really beautiful about the Lord, when he wants something to go, he resources it.
Mm-hmm. And so, you know, she, she worked at it for seven years, and in year seven, um, year six she'd tell me she was f- feeling pretty tired. She'd published some books, and [00:11:00] the magazine's going, it's growing. Mm-hmm. But she never, she never desired to create something that she would then manage and run. Right, right.
So she's exhausted from the work, and so, um, through a couple of conversations we'd find a publisher or an editor, who happened to live in Nashville, by the way, before we even moved here- Mm-hmm ... before I even knew I would move here, um, named Roberta, who we would then hire to, uh, run the magazine, be a editor-in-chief of the magazine.
Us hiring her, we had about 1,200 subscribers. She would, she would, or sorry, 600. She would then rebrand it. It would grow to about 1,200 girls, and what's crazy is in Winter's passing, God would literally... I, I had this conviction. I said, "I'm not gonna let this ministry die."
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Jonathan Pitts: What's funny is my motivation wasn't, I don't think my motivation, I think it was pure in the sense that I began to believe in this ministry that I hadn't b- I hadn't believed in for several years.
Um, but I just had this conviction that God was not done with this ministry- Mm-hmm ... even though he took the woman who began it home to be with the Lord. And so I said, "I'm not gonna let this ministry die," and I just figured out I'm a fundraiser. I've been doing [00:12:00] fundraising- Right ... for years. And I said, "God, we're gonna just work on this, and we'll do subscriptions, but I'm gonna fundraise for the rest."
And what's crazy is over seven years, he would wear me down to the point of I just got to the point this year that we're in right now, I just, I th- I'm like, "I think, I think I'm gonna have to sunset this thing." I c- I just don't have the bandwidth, bandwidth- ... energy. I've never felt called to run it full time.
Right. And so I've had other things going on. And what's crazy is as soon as I came to the end of myself- Mm-hmm ... is when God began just breathing into it. And so, uh, the month we're sitting in right now is the biggest month we've ever had in the history of our ministry, more girls coming on board, um, more subscriptions than ever, and now obviously more f- more funding because of this.
Mm-hmm. So anyway, it's just fun. Uh, she ran it seven years. I ran it seven years, and now I'm releasing it to the Lord to run it. Been for- 14 years in 14 years. Yeah. It took me a long time to realize that, but, but God's real faithful, and, you know, I've, my girls have kind of been a part of it all these years.
Mm-hmm. And, um, my daughter, in fact, uh, she just texted me a few minutes ago before I sat down with you and said, I, she just, [00:13:00] she's like, "I just finished the shoot." She shoots all the covers for the magazine. Oh. She's a creative. Her and her husband shoot them together. So it's a beautiful sort of family ministry, but she's like, I, I thought she was gonna run it, and she's like, "Dad, I'm not running this.
This is Mom's vision. I'm not interested in running it." So- Wow ... it's, you know, some things I'm- Yeah ... some things I'm surprised by how the Lord is working out, and anyway, I'm grateful that my girls are th- that- Mm-hmm ... that oldest daughter is convictional enough and confident enough to say, "Dad, I'm not doing your plans- Yeah, yeah
for my life. I'm doing my plan for my life, uh, and God's plan for my life." So yeah, so labor of love, but a lot of fun. Yeah. You always
Mike Glenn: want, you always want your children to find their own way and be their own, and then when they are, it just frustrates the heck out of you. Exactly. "I have a plan for you."
That's right. Listen. God loves you. I have a plan for your life. You know how that goes. Exactly. Yeah. So now you're remarried.
Jonathan Pitts: I'm remarried. I've been married, uh, almost four years. Um, another wild part of my journey, I mean, honestly, like, I, uh, I thought I knew who I was, and then my wife passed away, and then my identity was really shaken.
Um, and then I, I didn't realize- Then [00:14:00] you
Mike Glenn: had four daughters reminding you every day you don't know anything. Didn't know anything.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah. And so I would say she passed, I was 38. She was 38. Between the age of 38 and 40, I'd have so much growth- Mm-hmm ... because really God wanted to, like, I know he didn't take her for this reason, but in it- Right
he used it to work- Right ... on my identity. Mm-hmm. And then I would meet my now wife, who's an Australian girl, an actor from around the world that gets saved as an adult, and I would grow more because I didn't realize how much a Pharisee I was as I was kinda falling in love with this woman- Yeah ... who had a totally different experience in life.
Right. And it's been a wild journey, but we've got a, a little guy, a little 18-month-old little boy named Jonathan Joshua Arrow, which means God gives victory like an arrow. Yeah. Um, and he's doing a whole new work in my life. It's, uh, pretty unreal, pretty unbelievable, so,
Mike Glenn: and I never thought I'd have a son, so for me- Hey, well, that's a good thing to say.
You're, you are learning that little boys and little girls are different. Oh, very different.
Jonathan Pitts: Very different. Yeah, yeah. He, we were actually in the parking lot of the church. We got this big construction project going on. Right. Yesterday we're in [00:15:00] the parking lot, and- He's just looking around at all the, all the big tractors and stuff.
All the machines. Oh. And he's like, "Ah, ah, ah." Oh, that's right, that's right. Yeah. And the boys and girls are very different. Yeah, very, very different. You know, balls, trucks, and noises, you know? Oh, yeah. He's just, that's kind of what he's into. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So,
Jonathan Pitts: yeah.
Mike Glenn: And,
Jonathan Pitts: uh,
Mike Glenn: well, you know, we have, I have a f- four-year-old grandson, and, you know, we raised two boys, so, you know, boys, I'm used to be
What, walked into the den the other day, and he was doing a back flip off the couch. You know, in his ninja outfit, you know. Yeah. And it's like, uh, "Let's don't do a back flip. Let's, let's ... Big Mike's in here," so.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, I feel like we've got more bumps and bruises in 18 months with him than I ever have with my four daughters combined,
Mike Glenn: so.
Yeah. It's kinda scary. Even with that. But, you know,
Jonathan Pitts: it's like I'm actually having to learn to recondition myself as a parent because I'm so used to protecting and coddling. Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah, and this one- And now it's like,
Jonathan Pitts: oh, you gotta let this boy reign, free reigns, you know? That's right, yeah. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty
Mike Glenn: interesting.
He, he, boys are experiential learners. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They have to- Touch the stove. [00:16:00] They, yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's hot. Right, you're right. Yeah. Look at that. So give me, uh, give me the cliff notes of, uh, of your journey over, you know, and I, and, and, and I'm, uh, you know, I hate to say this, how much older I am than you.
But over, over your journey, what, what, what have you learned?
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah, you know, I'm, I mean, honestly, I, I grew up in a Christian home. I, I grew up in a little tiny charismatic church that was pretty low, not low on theology. It just didn't have a high, it didn't have a high ... I can't say they didn't have a high view of scripture.
They didn't have a high view of being in scripture weekly. You're right, right, yeah. But really high on love, and so I knew that God was loving. Um, and I knew that God was good, but really, I, I, I kinda moved from my childhood into, I kinda ran from that, uh, that, that experience as fast as I could into college, and I didn't r- I didn't run to the Lord another, [00:17:00] another area.
I ran to college and just kinda did what a lot of college kids do, and a lot of failure there. But what God would do through my marriage to Winter is I would end up in this, you know, I'm all of a sudden sitting under this guy named Tony Evans. I had no idea who he was. Mm-hmm. And so I started learning the scriptures, but I would say what I learned early on that really, like, solidified my heart for the Lord was, um, you know, you know, the scripture, uh, uh, uh, just the idea, I'm trying to think of the, there's lots of scriptures that talk about it, but the Lord is good.
Mm-hmm. Uh, is, is a, is a real thing that I, I had to learn experientially through some, through some failure young. Mm-hmm. Um- Taste the Lord and see that He is good ... taste that the Lord is good. Yeah. Blessed are all who take, uh- Mm ... refuge in Him. That, that's kind of been like a life scripture for me. But I, I had to actually experience that in a way that I wouldn't have in my childhood with my parents- Mm-hmm
all that kind of stuff. But I think, I think more, more recently, I think, um- I think what God's teaching me [00:18:00] now is that the kingdom is a lot broader than I would have ever thought. I kinda had this very rigid view of who God is and what he ex- Mm-hmm I'm a rule follow, I was a rule follower- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Mike Glenn: and
Jonathan Pitts: continue to be a rule follower. I'm not, nothing wrong with rules. God makes rules. God wants us to follow a rule, all that. I'm not knocking that, but I do think that the kingdom is more broad, and what God wants to do is more broad than I probably ever knew. Right. And so, like, even when you think denominationally, when you think across age, God's just doing a new thing all the time- All the time
through lots of different people. And, um, so anyway, I've got, I think I've got a really broad picture of the, of the big C church, I guess I'd say. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that's really beautiful. Um, but, um, but I'm learning a lot, man. I learned, I, I've learned a lot about myself. I, I, I said a minute ago that I'm, I didn't realize how much of a phar- how much of a Pharisee I was, and I learned it because when I felt like God called me to marry this woman who, she's this Australian girl, she's an actor, she got saved as an adult, very different world than this Christian kid that grew up in Christian [00:19:00] ministry and Christian content- Mm-hmm
it's very specific. Mm-hmm. But the thing I couldn't deny when I met her was the Holy Spirit's work in her life and the fruit of the Spirit, the evidence of, of who God was in her life was like, how, how is this possible, you know? Yeah. I had no framework for who she was.
Mike Glenn: Yeah, like when Peter saw Cornelius getting, getting- Exactly
Jonathan Pitts: ah, this is,
Mike Glenn: yeah, this is what I thought happened. Yeah.
Jonathan Pitts: I just, I, I, and I mean, obviously if you read scripture, you're like, oh yeah, duh, of course. Yeah. But like, the reality was I was such a Pharisee in who- I knew God to be and who I thought I was- Yeah ... in relation to that. And, you know, uh, one of my favorite scriptures, what was it?
1 Timothy, um, Paul says, "This is a trustworthy statement that deserves full acceptance." Full acceptance, that's it. "Christ Jesus came into the world-" 1 Timothy "... to save sinners, of whom I'm the
Mike Glenn: worst." Of who, of who I am, Jesus.
Jonathan Pitts: And I wouldn't have owned that scripture- Yeah ... before, before I turned 40, before I walked through what I walked through- No, no
before I met my now wife, who now makes- God, God
Mike Glenn: was lucky to have us on his team.
Jonathan Pitts: Exactly. He's, he's winning with me, you know? But now, yeah, I, I would consider myself the [00:20:00] worst of sinners- Yeah ... just like Paul, but I wouldn't have thought that, and I, I've had to walk through some things to get there, which gives me a greater compassion for the other worst of sinners.
Yeah. You know? So I probably have more compassion than I've ever had, um, more patience than I've ever had for people, less opinions about people. And obviously I have a, I have a high view of scripture- Right ... I have a high view of the word of God, but having a high view of the word of God doesn't necessarily mean I have to have a Pharisaical view- No
of people. No. You know? So anyway, that's, uh, that was a big surprise. You know, I turned 40 and all of a sudden I'm like, whoa. I didn't realize how broken I was. Yeah. And so I, I, I think I, I think I walk in a little bit more humility than I ever have, which I'm grateful for, but it's been a lot of work to get there.
Yeah. So my pastor would agree, by the way. You can ask him. So.
Mike Glenn: Well, we'll have to have Darren on here. Exactly. And we'll, we'll, we'll- He can tell the other side of the story ... we'll catch him up. That is right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What he didn't tell you- Yeah ... was this stuff. All right. How do we find out m- more about the girls ministry?
For Girls Like You? Yeah,
Jonathan Pitts: [00:21:00] forgirlslikeyou.com. Uh, that's our, uh, uh, our handle as well for any socials @. Mm-hmm. And then F-O-R, forgirlslikeyou.com. Um, again, b- bi-monthly magazine subscription in the home. It's actually really beautiful. The more the world gets digital, the more valuable, I think, print and tangible- Oh, sure
physical resources become. Sure, yeah. So that's been a fun- Yeah. My, that was my, that was Winter's conviction when she started it, and she had all kinds of people trying to convince her to do a digital magazine. Yeah. She goes, "I really think I want my girls to have something in their hand." So we call it a break from technology and yeah, that's it, uh, forgirlslikeyou.com.
Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, everybody, you know, all this research we're doing now is writing in a journal is- Mm-hmm ... better than typing it on the computer, and reading a real book is actually more comprehensive and-
Jonathan Pitts: Yep ...
Mike Glenn: uh, and engaging than, than trying to read it online and, and stuff. So.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: So according to all the research, you're onto a good thing.
Jonathan Pitts: Yeah. Turns out my, uh, wife is a visionary. My late wife knew what she was talking about- Knew what she was doing. ... even as I was trying to talk her out of doing it, so. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Well, [00:22:00] Jonathan, thanks for being with us today. Yeah, glad to be with you. And that is forgirlslikeyou.com. It's where you can find, uh, a lot of the stuff that Jonathan was talking about today.
I'm Mike Glenn. This is the Engage Church Network. Thanks for being with us today.
Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
