Mary Wiley on Discipling the Next Generation
Many believers encounter Jesus, join a church, and serve faithfully - yet never truly build a coherent theology. In this conversation, Mike Glenn sits down with author and LifeWay editor Mary Wiley to talk about how we can better understand who God is, how He reveals Himself, and how to pass that truth on to the next generation.
-
Mike Glenn: When they ask a question, you say, "Patience. We'll get to that." Yes.
Mary Wiley: That's right.
Mike Glenn: But let's focus on today's lesson. And
Mary Wiley: what a beauty that we get to learn alongside our kids. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: You are a, uh, an, an, an editor with LifeWay. Mm-hmm. And work w- a lot- Yeah, publisher ... with children and theology- Mm-hmm ... and publishing and that kind of stuff. That's right. Now, you got a couple a interesting books for, for our audience. Mm-hmm. One is, um, uh, Everybody Theology? Everyday Theology. Everyday Theology.
Or, yeah, Everyday
Mary Wiley: Theology. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm. And then, uh, the, the book for children, the Bible for children. Yeah, Discovering
Mary Wiley: the Bible. [00:01:00]
Mike Glenn: And, um, my m- uh, a couple of per- pet peeves is- Mm-hmm ... we don't, we never do the hard work of putting a theology together.
Mary Wiley: That's right.
Mike Glenn: We, we come to Christ. Uh, there is some kind of encounter with Christ that is real, life-changing- Mm-hmm
all of that. We're baptized. We get into a church. We get into a small group and maybe working in the parking lot or serving in the- Mm-hmm ... children's ministry. But we never sit down and think out who God is, how He's revealed Himself, the nature of His character, what that means, who Christ is, the purpose of salvation, all of those things that, that we as- Mm-hmm
theologians would consider to be foundational. You have to know these things before- Yeah ... you can move on. Because of that, we end up with a quilt.
Mary Wiley: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Kind of a crazy quilt. We, we, we figure out [00:02:00] a theology when something happens to us.
Mary Wiley: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, we lose a job or something like that, so we say, "Oh, what does it mean when life doesn't work out?
How, how does that...?" Yeah. But the theology is never coherent. Then we get caught in a conversation where, uh, the culture will say to us, "Well, Jesus says you have to love us."
Mary Wiley: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: True. But what Jesus said when he said love and what you're saying when you say love- That's right ... are not the same thing.
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Uh- Jesus said, "We love to truth."
Mike Glenn: Yes, yes, yes. And not only that, but for our culture, love is a deep, emotional experience. Mm-hmm. Uh, a tingling of the spine. A-
Mary Wiley: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, a- Butterflies ... butter- butterflies- Mm-hmm ... that kind of thing, and I feel w- all warm and fuzzy towards you. Christ says, "I'm committed to your best being, [00:03:00] even if it costs me my life."
Mary Wiley: That's right. What better picture of love? S-
Mike Glenn: so yeah. So, so when you say, yeah, Jesus says love is, you have no clue what he's talking about. Now, uh, I ha- I can diagnose the problem- Mm-hmm ... Mary, but I don't know what to do about it. Yeah. And, and most of my friends- Mm-hmm ... uh, in, in churches all across Middle Tennessee would say, "Yeah, that's a problem.
We don't know what to do with it." So one- Yeah ... let- let's keep it, let's start here at the higher level-
Mary Wiley: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: with this everyday theology, and then let's move it down to intentionally beginning with our children- Yep ... because- I love that ... sadly, culture is discipling our children if we're not.
Mary Wiley: Oh, yeah. I mean, just look at the hours- Yes
alone that you- Mm-hmm ... spend in instruction in a church situation versus on a screen- Mm-hmm ... or consuming media. That is all shaping us. Right. Everything [00:04:00] we, everything we consume is shaping
Mike Glenn: us. Mm-hmm. Yeah, my grandson, uh, is four, will soon be five, uh, but is in his Ninja phase.
Mary Wiley: Yes, every kid has one. So,
Mike Glenn: so, so, so he's, everything is in a, in a black, everything's a mask, everything's a...
And, and he is consumed by Ninja on YouTube.
Mary Wiley: Hmm.
Mike Glenn: So it's not unusual to walk into our house and see him flying off the couch-
Mary Wiley: Yeah. ... mimicking
Mike Glenn: some, uh, Ninja move that he just saw. Mm-hmm. And he's pretty good at it. Now, you know, when you sit down and think about it, you go, "Hey, wait a minute, YouTube just discipled my grandson."
Mary Wiley: That's right, to imitate.
Mike Glenn: To imitate a Ninja. If you don't know what else to do- Mm-hmm ... then be a Ninja. Mm-hmm.
Mary Wiley: Which Paul says, "Imitate me as I-" Yeah ... "imitate Christ." Right. Right. We have models in the scripture to imitate. That's right. Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Um, yeah. So where do we [00:05:00] start, especially in the local church- Yeah
with this everyday- I love it ... theology stuff?
Mary Wiley: I think often we think that familiarity with the scriptures is enough. Mm. And there is need for that. Yeah. There's a major movement toward Biblical literacy. I am for that, but it's not just enough, it's not enough to only know the stories of scripture and to not actually apply them to our lives.
In so many ways, that's to act as a Pharisee. Mm-hmm. To say, "I know what these things say, but do, do I really need to live them out?" Right. And so, yeah, we begin ideally with children. Um, I teach kids every Sunday, second grade. Uh, we are teaching them how to read their Bibles for themselves. It's right when they begin to be- Mm-hmm
able to read in many cases, and those first couple of months are a little painful as we let them read out loud. Um, and- But for so
Mike Glenn: long, that was the way children learned how to read.
Mary Wiley: That's exactly right And we've gotten away from that, but to help them understand that they can. Mm-hmm. They can and [00:06:00] should read the Bible for themselves, and that they can and should apply those truths, which is the work of theology.
The work of theology is a- And what they mean, let, let go home
Mike Glenn: and teach their parents how to read the Bible before they teach us. That's exactly right. That's what our
Mary Wiley: hope is, that as parents get involved in discipling their children- Mm-hmm ... that they're learning, too. Um, I think so often some of our issues with applying our theology actually comes from an inability to ask good questions.
Mm-hmm. We come into church thinking, "I should know all the answers." Mm-hmm. So to say out loud that I might not- Mm-hmm ... is to show that I am, I'm ignorant, that I, I don't understand the things of the scriptures, and that I don't belong here. Mm-hmm. When, in reality, that has always been the model of the teaching- Yeah
of the scriptures- That's what AA- ... is that we would ask- ... AA
Mike Glenn: does that better than the church does.
Mary Wiley: Yes.
Mike Glenn: AA assumes everybody in the room's messed up.
Mary Wiley: That's right, and we should assume the same, and- The same ... we also should assume that everyone in the room has questions- Mm-hmm ... and that those questions are valuable.
And so, one, [00:07:00] I, I really believe the beginning of theology is opening up that ability for people to ask questions, to say, "Wait. Who is God revealing himself truly in the scriptures? Let me not just determine what I think about some ruling being what might be true about- Mm-hmm ... a creator God. Let me go to his word- Mm-hmm
and determine what it says there." Mm-hmm. Let us know the God of the scriptures, not this god that we've created in so many ways in our own image- Mm-hmm ... who we assume i- is going to be angry with us if we skip a day in his word. Right. And or we assume these things about the God of the scriptures. Or is a cosmic
Mike Glenn: Santa Claus.
Mary Wiley: That's right, that- Yeah ... we only go to him when we need something. Mm-hmm. And that he's gonna just give anything that we, we ask for because that's... Well, I- Mm-hmm ... prayed for this. Mm-hmm. That's how this should work. And so really building out, um, the ability to trust him, not just in those moments when, as you said, often [00:08:00] theology really meets the road when hard things happen.
Mm-hmm. But if we aren't storing up hope for those days, if we aren't- Right ... storing up truth for those days, we will misunderstand who God is- Mm-hmm ... who he's revealed himself to be in his word. And so, uh, for kids, it's, "Let's get into the Bible. Let's read from Genesis to Revelation. Let's, let's help you, uh, identify what God is saying is true about himself and his word," and that's true for adults as well.
Mike Glenn: Right. Okay, before we get to adults- Yeah ... l- l- you have just scared every parent- ... who watches this to death.
Mary Wiley: Yes. That
Mike Glenn: I'm gonna have to read the Bible with my- kid.
Mary Wiley: Yeah. And really, the Lord has given parents the role of the primary discipler- Primary discipleship ... of kids. Mm-hmm. And so often we think, "Oh, that, that lies within the church."
Mm-hmm. And what we've seen in my local church, um, I also teach a new Christians class. I tell people all the time, "If the Lord said, 'Hey, you're not doing any more ministry, you can only pick one thing- Mm-hmm ... that would be [00:09:00] the thing- That's right. Yeah ... I hold onto." Yeah. Uh, because we've seen dozens if not hundreds of kids walk through this class.
Been teaching it I guess 13, 14 years now, uh, four or five times a year, and parents come with their children- Right ... uh, to have this conversation about what it looks like to be a Christian. So we do a three-week process where we're talking with parents about, "Hey, here's how you can sit down with your child."
Mm-hmm. "And it doesn't have to be that you guys sing for an hour- ... and then you preach from your dining room table. It, it doesn't have to look like- No ... your church service." Not at all. It,
Mike Glenn: it, it never looked like that in my family. No. No. And
Mary Wiley: it doesn't look like that in my family. Mm-hmm. And in my family, what it does look like is conversations as we're coming and going.
Mm-hmm. 'Cause, uh, the car has been such a great moment- Yes ... to have those conversations. Yeah, taking the boys
Mike Glenn: into school- Yeah, going to school ... was when, was when we did it, yeah.
Mary Wiley: And so in those moments- Mm-hmm ... we're saying, "What should we be praying for today? What's God teaching you today?" And so these really simple prompts- Mm-hmm
that can [00:10:00] help a parent walk through, okay, what do we know is true about God, and what does what we know is true about God tell us about how to live today? Mm-hmm. How to respond today, how to feel about what happened today. Mm-hmm. Um, and I need those questions as an adult just as much as my kids do.
Mm-hmm. I need to sit down at the end of every day and say, "Okay, where did I see God working? Where can I join him- Mm-hmm ... in that work?" And so for parents who, uh, I come across a lot of parents who are shaking in their shoes- Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah ... when we start talking about discipleship. Yeah. And, uh, I'm always quick to remind them, "You don't, you don't have to know all the answers."
One of the most powerful things you can say as a disciple of Christ is, "I don't know." "I don't
Mike Glenn: know. Let's go look." "I don't
Mary Wiley: know. Let's go find out." "Let's go look." "And if we can't figure it out- Mm ... we'll ask someone at church, and if they don't know, it may just be that God has shrouded that in mystery, and, and we might not ever know- Yeah
on this side of Heaven." One, one of my favorite
Mike Glenn: stories is a buddy of mine took off for the gap year. [00:11:00] Yeah. He had graduated college, and so he just traveled out West. He got a job teaching Russian.
Mary Wiley: Oh, wow. Uh,
Mike Glenn: he's from, he's from North Al- I mean, he's brilliant No, he's from North Alabama like me.
Mary Wiley: Okay
Mike Glenn: Okay?
So I'm talking to him, going, "How, what in the world are you doing in this little town in Colorado teaching Russian?" He said, "Listen," he said, "There's nothing to it." I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "The only thing you have to do is stay one day ahead of the kids." That is exactly right. That's all you have to do.
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And when they ask a question, you say, "Patience, we'll get to that." Yes,
Mary Wiley: that's right.
Mike Glenn: But let's focus on today's lesson. And what a beauty that we
Mary Wiley: get to learn alongside our kids. Yeah, yeah. Uh, there are things my kids have said, even as tiny children, that I was like, "How, who taught you that?" Yeah. And these are things that I need to be reminded of, too.
Yeah. We were driving down, we live in Lebanon, Tennessee, just east of Nashville, and Lebanon takes Halloween really seriously. I mean, lots of [00:12:00] decorations. We did not really understand it when we moved to Lebanon, but we were driving down the road in the fall, and I, I, I have two fourth graders right now.
They're four months apart. We adopted while pregnant, and so it's been a really neat- Oh, that's,
Mike Glenn: that's always the way it happens. You know we're not. Yeah.
Mary Wiley: And so, um, they're both sitting in the backseat. They're two, maybe three at this point. We're driving down the road, and we pass a cemetery, and one of my children, who will remain nameless-
who will protect the innocent, said, um, "Wow, they've really decorated for Halloween." And I, as the mom, am driving, trying to figure out how on earth I redirect this conversation. That's, that's, that's right. And my other child said, "They are not getting ready for Halloween. They're getting ready for when Jesus comes back."
Mike Glenn: There we go.
Mary Wiley: And I was like, out of the mouth of babes- Yeah ... comes the truth of the Gospel message, that we will rise- Yeah ... with Christ- Mm-hmm ... when he returns. And, um, what a reminder that even the [00:13:00] smallest can understand these big truths about God- Mm-hmm ... 'cause he welcomes us as children, right? They don't need to know all the details.
They just need to know what the Bible says. Uh, so often the kids in my second grade class will say, "Yeah, I believe that." You present it, "God is three in one." "He is triune. I don't understand it fully- No ... but this is what the Bible says." And they'll say, "Okay, yeah." Yeah. "That's great." And so, as parents, I think we often think we need to know more of the details- Right
than God has given us. And we need to be able to answer those questions so perfectly because we might mess them up. I really do believe that is the fear at the bottom- Sure ... of our, our f- our just avoidance of discipleship, is we're afraid we're gonna make a mistake. Mm-hmm. And the Lord's just way too big for that to be a worry in our mind- Well, it's the same-
because he loves them ... it's the
Mike Glenn: same fear that every pastor I know- Hmm ... feels.
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: If your people really knew-
Mary Wiley: Hmm ...
Mike Glenn: they wouldn't listen to you. [00:14:00]
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And, and if, the day your children find out-
Mary Wiley: Hmm ...
Mike Glenn: that you have feet of clay- Yeah ...
Mary Wiley: then, yeah And God draws really straight lines with really crooked sticks.
Yeah,
Mike Glenn: yeah. Yeah. You know, I learned, I learned to love scripture from my dad.
Mary Wiley: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: Uh, he taught Sunday school for- 40 years. And the picture I have of my dad is open Bible-
Mary Wiley: Mm-hmm ...
Mike Glenn: in his lap, pen in this hand, the Sunday school quarterly in this hand- That's right ... making his notes for his class. Ready
Mary Wiley: to teach.
Mike Glenn: And when he ge- when he would discover something interesting or exciting, he'd get up and run to the den where we were- That's awesome ... and tell my brother and me what he had just discovered.
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And then he would write notes in his Bible. But h- his Bible got so worn out that you literally had to square it up-
Mary Wiley: Yes
before you
Mike Glenn: picked it up. You remember [00:15:00] that? Pages be falling out. Bec- yeah, because if you, if you picked it up carelessly, the pages would fall out, so you'd have to square it. So I got him a new Bible, and I told... And went back a couple of weeks later, he had not taken the Bible out of the box. Mm. I said, "Dad, I got you..."
He said, "That, that new Bible doesn't know anything."
Mary Wiley: Doesn't have all his notes. It hasn't lived history with him. Doesn't have, doesn't have his notes. That's
Mike Glenn: right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And more than just seeing the note, you, when you see, when you see the note and you[00:16:00]
Mary Wiley: sought the Lord- Mm-hmm ... and, and loved the things of the Lord. But, um, he was having a particularly difficult day, and he said, [00:17:00] "Mom, where's your Bible?" And I handed to him. He said, "Where, where's the armor of God?" And so we flipped to- Mm ... Ephesians, and, um, he, he was like, "Can I have some of your note cards in your office?"
And I was like, "I, I can see where this is going. We're using all of Mom's things." Um, I happily went and got him some, and, uh, he sat at the dining room table, wrote out every verse, drew a picture of every piece of armor, put them in a binder clip, and took them with him to school. Um, and what I saw in that moment was what I hope will be true of my life- Mm-hmm
is that when I struggle, when I feel anxiety, when I don't know where to turn, that the first place I go is the scriptures. Mm-hmm. Um, there was something so true about the way that he immediately realized the place to take my fears- Mm-hmm ... the place to take these feelings that I'm dealing with, these mean things that are being said at school, the place to take it is to the Lord, to the [00:18:00] feet of the Lord.
And
Mike Glenn: had created his own Bible.
Mary Wiley: And he took it with him. And- Which,
Mike Glenn: which is fabulous. Yeah. Now, let's, let's go to a, to a, uh, a dirty little secret that's just here. Yeah. We would just, we'll just keep it here, all right?
Mary Wiley: Just between us friends.
Mike Glenn: I know some of you are adults. I know some of you are adult new Christians.
Mm-hmm. And the Bible scares you to death, okay? Get the kids Bible.
Mary Wiley: Amen. Read- Get- ... uh, even a child's storybook Bible ...
Mike Glenn: get the kids Bible. Yes. Okay? You can put a, a, a cover on it. Nobody will know. That's right. But, but, but engage the text where you are. Nobody is born full-grown.
Mary Wiley: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Uh, uh, and you're not born with all knowledge, so, so start where you are.
Where you are where you are, and it's a great place to start. Um, but, but if you would feel more comfortable buying, you know... 'Cause w- we had, uh, at what, [00:19:00] when we were s- doing Kairos at, at, at Brent, we, we had so many young adults. So many of them did not have a Bible.
Mary Wiley: Mm-hmm.
Mike Glenn: So I literally brought in Mike Didway.
You may know Mike Didway. Mm-hmm, yeah. Michael. And, uh, and he talked about all of the different translations.
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: Uh, the New English, the King James, what, what, what all of these translations meant, what they were used for- Mm-hmm ... and which m- one might best work for you. That's right. Because I had so many of them going over to the Lifeway bookstore, when we had the bookstores, and being scared to death- Mm-hmm
by the number of text that were available. It's huge. Have you seen how m- how many Bibles? I didn't want to get the wrong one. So many choices. That's right. You know, and then when they got one, being scared of the text. Yeah. And, and I found that for a couple of them, I said, "Listen, there's a child version of this."
Mm-hmm. Start there.
Mary Wiley: Absolutely. And
Mike Glenn: it was golden for them.
Mary Wiley: Yeah, and you [00:20:00] don't have to start in Genesis and read- No, no ... to Revelation, 'cause you're gonna get trapped in Leviticus. In Num- You're not gonna make it much farther. Leviticus, no, it buries
Mike Glenn: us all. That- That's
Mary Wiley: right But start in John.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Mary Wiley: Start in the New Testament.
Stories that feel a little less foreign- Right ... uh, a little less ancient. Mm-hmm. And stories that proclaim the gospel of Jesus. Mm-hmm. Things that, um, you can take with you for the day that aren't lists of how many people were brought out of the exile- Mm-hmm ... uh, that aren't lists of the kings of Israel.
All of those things have a place and a purpose and a reason that they're included in the canon. Mm-hmm. But there are better places to start, better reading plans even, to help you get through it. And if you're in Leviticus, use an audio Bible- ... so that you can make it through.
Mike Glenn: Uh, l- so let's, uh, let, let's get, uh, a little, a little more practical here.
Mm-hmm. I'm a parent. I have a young [00:21:00] child. I wanna start this. How do I start? Mm-hmm. And what resources are available to me?
Mary Wiley: Yeah, so the first thing you need is a good kid's Bible.
Mike Glenn: Mm-hmm.
Mary Wiley: And then, uh, I've produced a resource called Discovering the Bible that I would recommend to begin, uh, really developing the practice of approaching- All of these are on the LifeWay website.
They are. Okay. Yeah, anywhere books are sold. Um, and we tried to keep it really economical, so they're like 9.99. Mm-hmm. It's like 176 pages. It will get you through an entire year, if not longer, of engaging with the scriptures. Mm-hmm. And so every Sunday, and, and in my home as well, we're working through the same pattern of pray.
We- first we ask God to help us understand because just like you said, there are some really, really challenging passages- Mm-hmm ... of scripture that I'm not sure I'll ever understand. Ever understand. And that's okay. I, I
Mike Glenn: understand it, but I don't get 'em. That's right. Y- you know? That's right. Okay, I know what the words said.
I know what it says.
Mary Wiley: I don't know what I'm supposed to do with it. Yeah, that's me. And so, um, but we [00:22:00] can pray. The Lord invites us to, to experience the illumination of the Spirit as we- Mm-hmm ... read, that He's gonna help us interpret those texts. And so we ask God to help us. Uh, and I think that models for kids that we don't know everything, and that we're relying on God for all of that- Mm-hmm And then we, uh, read and we reread.
And in the classroom as well as at my home, I let kids read first. Mm-hmm. And then I read after them to make sure we understand what has happened. Mm-hmm. What is going on. I often will skip a word and let them fill it in- Yeah ... while I'm reading to make sure they're still engaged, asking them questions at the end- Right
of paragraphs, uh, to make sure, okay, did we get, did we, can we summarize what happened or can we not? Mm-hmm. Do we need to go back and read again? So we read and we reread to make sure that we're understanding what the text says, and then we ask and answer. And this is my favorite, my favorite part of Sunday mornings, is I invite the kids to ask as many questions as they can about the text.
[00:23:00] Mm-hmm. And the first 10 are reading comprehension questions- Right ... usually are, hey, what, what is this place that they're going to? Uh, what, what are the details of, uh, why they're, they're doing this particular thing? But then you get about 10 in, and kids begin to ask the questions they actually have. They begin to ask what, what does it mean to be a Christian?
Mm-hmm. Why, why do I need to live a particular way? Uh, what does it look like to really follow God? Why do I get baptized? Mm-hmm. Uh, last week it was if God knew that Satan was gonna fall, why did he create him? Mm-hmm. And I was like, would you look at the time? That's right. I think it's time for us to go to our next class.
And so they're asking these big questions- Right ... because they have the opportunity to. Mm-hmm. And God has invited us to do the same with Him, that He can handle our questions. Mm-hmm. Um, that we're not going to ask any question of God that somehow shakes His being. Yeah. Um- I have a friend- [00:24:00] Yeah ...
Mike Glenn: who, uh, was the, was the part-time pastor of a deaf congregation.
Mm-hmm. And we were talking at one of their conferences, and he was saying, "I don't have time, given my job, to prepare the way I wanna prepare for my- Mm-hmm ... Sunday morning sermon."
Mary Wiley: Yeah.
Mike Glenn: And I asked him, I said, "How old are your children?" And he, they were seven and nine at the time. Mm-hmm. I said, "Do you read scripture with your children?"
Yeah. He said, "Of course." I said, "Do they talk to you about- Mm ... the scripture?" He said, "Of course." I said, "That's your sermon prep." There's
Mary Wiley: your prep.
Mike Glenn: I said, "Read that text to your children." Mm-hmm. "Pick up that conversation." And preach that on Sunday morning
Mary Wiley: And answer those questions And answer
Mike Glenn: those questions
Mary Wiley: That's right
Mike Glenn: And it was gold.
I talked to him- Yeah ... the next year later and and it was just gold to him. But a very simple process- Mm-hmm ... with profound- [00:25:00] Yes ... uh, i- implications
Mary Wiley: And I really learned that in college ministry. I had a college minister who, uh, invited us in to have some discipleship time with him, and in our first meeting, we walked in the door, he looked at us, he said, "Um, we're not meeting today.
I'm just gonna give you an assignment. Uh, I want you to take these three verses and ask 50 questions about them. Do not come back in this room unless you have 50 questions." And 19-year-old Mary- Yeah, yeah ... Carlisle at the time- Yeah, yeah ... Mary Wiley, I, I rolled my eyes. Mm-hmm. Because I was like, "That is not possible."
Right. There are three verses. Like, how am I possibly gonna ask this many questions? But I also wanted to be in the room. So you better believe I brought some questions. And what was so beautiful is that nobody's questions were the same.
Mike Glenn: Yeah.
Mary Wiley: And so there were far more- All, all temp- ... than 50 questions ... all
Mike Glenn: tempered through your life experience and that kinda stuff.
Mary Wiley: That's right.
Mike Glenn: Are there any big, um, no-nos? Well, you know- Whatever you do, don't do this ...
Mary Wiley: um, in so many ways- I [00:26:00] think that all things are kind of opportunities- Right ... to talk about God and His word. Ah,
Mike Glenn: good word.
Mary Wiley: And so I would not say- Good word ... "Hey, here's where the pitfalls are." I mean, of course, we wanna provide wise guardrails for our kids.
Um, I, in so many ways, believe that if you're shooting too high, and you are planning for a three-hour family- ... devotional, um, like, don't set yourself up to fail- Yeah ... would be my encouragement. I could never- Start small ...
Mike Glenn: I could never get that to work, and I, and I felt awful- Yes ...
Mary Wiley: because- Well, in so many cases, your kids have been at school all day.
Yeah. They're exhausted. Yeah, I'm
Mike Glenn: a pastor, and- Mm-hmm ... and I can't get this to work. But then a friend of mine said, "Read the scriptures."
Mary Wiley: Yeah. That's all it takes. And
Mike Glenn: it says, "As you go, when you walk down- That's right ... the road," it's not going to the, to your den or your study and sitting down. No. These are the things you talk about during the course of your life.
Mary Wiley: That's right, and if we're only looking for that devotional [00:27:00] time- Mm-hmm ... we are saying, "Hey, God's word and the concepts of scripture live in this very- Segregated ... fine timeframe- Yeah ... and in this very narrow category- Mm-hmm ... and they don't actually apply to the wholeness of our lives. So what we want our kids to know is that God's word does matter- And this is a natural-
when they get off the bus at
Mike Glenn: school ... it is a natural- That's right ... concept and flow and, and flow of our lives. That's right. What you working on your PhD?
Mary Wiley: Um, I am working in systematic theology, so working on hermeneutics of the Old Testament, which is a real fancy way to say I wanna help us understand how the prophets were reading- Mm-hmm
the Torah, how, if Paul says that, uh, what's happening in Exodus, the exile is good for the church, what does he mean- Mm-hmm ... there? Um, so I've, I've had some really fun exploration of... I, I'm overly interested in how should we be reading the Bible in the way- Mm-hmm ... that Jesus read the Bible. That's right. I mean, you know, He's [00:28:00] walking on the road to Emmaus, and He says, "Hey, all of this, all of these things are about me."
That's
Mike Glenn: right, yeah.
Mary Wiley: And I wanna make sure that I'm reading the text in the same way.
Mike Glenn: How can you not know this?
Mary Wiley: Yeah, yeah. How, how- And he was shocked. Yeah. You know? He's like, "God, Moses wrote about me. How did you miss this?" How
Mike Glenn: can you not know this? What are, what are you hopeful for?
Mary Wiley: I see a movement in the church toward biblical literacy, uh, that doesn't just seek to flannel board some stories- Mm-hmm
but to really help kids and adults at the same time realize that the Bible is telling one story, it is all about Jesus, and it is a call to surrender our lives. Um, and so what encourages me in a world that feels really chaotic right now, it feels very unsure under our feet. As I talk to a lot of Christians, they're like, "We don't know what two years will look like, what four years will look like economically or across our nation- Mm-hmm
or across the world. We [00:29:00] don't know what tomorrow holds," which, um, I always chuckle a little bit 'cause I'm like, "Well, that's, that's always been true." We've never known. We've never known. We've never known. We've never known what tomorrow holds. But I think in those moments where people kinda come face to face with the uncertainty of tomorrow- Mm-hmm
um, they learn to really hold onto the truths- Yeah ... of the gospel. And so I hope what we're growing in is, is h- having anchors. Right. Um, that, that can't live within us because we're shaky ground. Mm-hmm. That can't live within our culture because culture is shaky ground. Yeah. But can live in the permanent unmoving word of God.
Mm-hmm. Um, and I hope that they find him faithful again and again and again, just like my son has- Yeah ... as he's walked around with his binder clip- ... index cards, um, pulling them out, you know- Yeah ... during recess when he felt like he needed them. Wow.
Mike Glenn: Scripture in real life, real world, real ways, all that.
That's right. Ah, this is [00:30:00] good stuff. Mary, thanks for being here. Yeah. She is Mary Wiley. She is an editor with Lifeway, and has a great book for kids called Discovering the Bible. Mm-hmm. And a lot of other resources over there. You can find it all on their website and anywhere else books are sold. I'm Mike Glenn, and this is the Engage Church Network Podcast.
Thanks for being with us.
Thanks for tuning in to the Engage Church Network Podcast. We exist to train healthy and skilled leaders for congregations throughout Middle Tennessee. If today's episode helped you, share it with a fellow leader, and don't forget to visit engagechurchnetwork.com for more ways to grow.
